Ep. 1954 John Matta | Wine, Food & Travel With Marc Millon

The Italian wine podcast is the community driven platform for Italian wine Geeks around the world. Support the show by donating at Italian wine podcast dot com. Donate five or more Euros, and we'll send you a copy of our latest book. My Italian GreatGeek journal. Absolutely free. To get your free copy of my Italian GreatGeek journal, click support us at italian wine podcast dot com, or wherever you get your pods. Welcome to wine food and travel. With me, Mark Billen, on Italian wine podcast. Listen in as we journey to some of Italy's most beautiful places in the company of those who know them best. The families who grow grapes and make fabulous wines. Through their stories, we all learn not just about their wines, but also about their ways of life, the local and regional foods and specialities that pair naturally with their wines. And the most beautiful places to visit. We have a wonderful journey of discovery ahead of us, and I hope you will join me. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, we travel to the Heart of the Kianti classico, to Grive in Kiente to meet my guest, John Mata, owner of Castello Vicchio Madio. John has been more than thirty five years since we last met in its great to be in contact again. How are you today? And is it a beautiful day in? Yes. I'm fine. Thank you. And the weather is, is gorgeous. It's, let's say, standard issue. For this time of year, which means clear blue skies, twenty degrees centigrade, nice and sun. Well, that sounds beautiful. That sounds pretty perfect. Now, John, for our listeners who are located all around the world, I'd like you to describe Castello Vicky O Majo to give a listeners a a vivid view of a very special place, a place with a very long history. Yes. Certainly. We're a hilltop castle, the whole estate of Castello Picchu occupies a hill. The valleys are very wide. So from the top of the hill here, we're at three hundred meters above sea level. So the actual castle is three hundred meters above sea level, and the lowest parts of the hill is around a hundred and seventy, a hundred and eighty meters. So it's a a hill that you can see, from a distance, and we've got a commanding view to the south towards Greving Kianti, and the north towards the hills that are the backdrop for the city of Florence, the the Appenines. We can see the Appenines quite clearly. The so there's, you know, the Tuscan countryside with Cyprus trees and olive trees, which are very nice because they're evergreen. So it's even in the winter, there's always some greenery around. And it's a real castle, John. Isn't it? It's in this commanding position strategically. It's a castle with a very long history. Yes. Certainly. I mean, as it stands today, it was rebuilt between fifteen forty and fifteen sixty. So that's Renaissance's architecture. And there's an older part, the tower, which is medieval. So that comes from we we have documents that described the tower dated nine fifty six. And prior to that going back much, much further, it was an etruscan fortress because all the hilltops were strategically fortified. Okay. Well, that's a really, really good description. Now, John, I'd like you to share your own story or the Mata family story of how you came, how your family came to be at Castello Vicio manjo. Yes. Certainly. Well, we we got involved in wine because my father who was Italian Mata. Obviously, that word's Italian and Spanish, actually, Mata. He was born, near asti in Piamonte, and he emigrated to the UK and set up a wine import business. We're talking of nineteen twenty one when the wine import business was set up. And over the years, it expanded. And in the early fifties, early nineteen fifties, It was the biggest Italian wine importer in the UK launching, especially just to name one product, Campari across the UK. And this estate was purchased in nineteen sixty four. And I went to school in the UK, then I lived and worked, lived and worked for a year in burgundy at with the, Dufuh, wine producers, then there was three years of agricultural college at Anba. In Piamante. So that's specializing in winemaking and Viti culture. Well, that's an incredible story, John, really about how your family was instrumental in in the very early days in in bringing Italian wines to the UK. Yes. Certainly. It's, you know, the the UK market I know now it's, seems incredible that there was a time when there were no Italian wines, but, in in the twenties, thirties, and even fifties. It's a Italian wine was very, very unavailable, let's say. Yes. Certainly. It seems, John, that from an early age, you always knew that you wanted to build on your father's work at Castellavicchio Majo. Is that right? And so you went to Burgundy and then to Alba to study wine making to learn your craft. Yes. Certainly. I mean, it was the only subject that was spoken about at home. So it was always wine, and there was always wine being taste did and everything. So, as far as I was concerned as a child, I thought, you know, that the world was, just one big, vineyard and everyone was involved in wine. Oh, wonderful. Now, John, I guess if your family bought Castaro Vicio Madjo in nineteen sixty four, did you say? Yes. Nineteen sixty four. This would have been a time of immense transition in Tuscany with the demise or the winding down of the Metsudria, a real change beginning to transform the region itself. Yes. Certainly. Certainly. In those days that we're already, let's say, not non non local families, beginning to get involved in wine and, others, tuscan families, you know, improving, because the the vineyards of Italy in the late fifties were still recuperating from negligence that took place during the second World War because in that period of time, there was a, you know, no fertilizers, no diesel for the tractors. There was nothing. So vineyards, especially were were neglected for for a number of years. Of course. Now, John, I think we met in the fall of nineteen eighty nine when when Kim and I were researching writing and photographing the wine roads of Italy. We were both considerably younger, and the world was quite different. I mean, there were no mobile phones. I had to use a payphone in Jettone to to make appointments. There was no internet, no email. No social media, no podcasts, no euro. The Kianti Casico itself was in a state of transition. I remember the Kianti Duemila project was one that everybody was talking about. The wine itself was evolving, and the Chianti classico as a wine zone was evolving. And you've been a long part of that story from the earliest days of this transition to now. So I just like to think about some of these changes that have happened in the in the years. You know, I'm I see how your wines have evolved, how hospitality has evolved, which is a subject I'd like to get back to you, but let's just consider some of those changes. Yes. Certainly. Well, the major one that you've, that you've touched on was the the project, the Canti classical Duemera Canti classic two thousand project, which was initiated around. It must have been nineteen eighty five approximately, and it entailed our consortium the consortio Cantic classical together with the universities of, Ferrencesiena and Pisa, if I remember correctly, all working in the vineyards. To select and classify specific, types of San Jose because up till then, if you walked in a vineyard, you would have seen Samsung with bigger berries, with smaller berries, with tight bunches, loose bunches. So it was the objective stimulated obviously by all us producers to do a major agronomical research and classify all these various types of sangiovese grapes. And this took fifteen years, and it's a very slow process because it's simply observation in the vineyard then replanting the varieties that seem better than others. But the end result, which came out in the year at the beginning of the year, two thousand just before, was that there were ten classified, types of sangiovese, which when one was replanting vineyards, one could choose. So mostly smaller berry, not so tight bunches and the advantage of that is obviously a bit reins on a bunch that that doesn't have tight berries on it. It will dry out very easily. Whereas if it's a tight bunch and a tight cluster, then all the berries touch each other, the water can penetrate into the bunch, and then that creates mildew or mold inside. So that's highly undesirable. So the the big push in a candy classic or style and quality is really thanks to to this huge project. That now allows us to choose exactly the type of Santrevez that we want. And I think one needs to add that this is something that in France they'd been doing for centuries. Or certainly for a century. If you go in a vineyard in France, you'll see in the classic vineyards. All the vines are identical because they've been doing this agronomical researcher longer and earlier than when we started in Italy. But now Italy is on a on a same level, let's say. So any plantings, not just Sundra beers, it's been done. For other great varieties. Yes. I can remember, what a big project that was. John, I also recall in our book we have a photo of you standing next to, an ancient vine that was trained up a tree Yes. As has had been done for for centuries. Are those old vines still standing? Well, we've just got a couple as, let's say, as a memento, because when when we met this Kanti classic or two thousand project had not really started. So the Kanti classic or this project changed everybody's view. And lots of people once the project was completed, replanted a lot of vineyards. As we did, we replanted a lot of vineyards. Is starting, nineteen ninety eight onwards. And the results have been really excellent. So the the Kianti classic for two thousand project changed our outlook on the vineyard and prompted it everyone, not everyone, but a lot of vineyards in Chianti class, it got to choose and change the, the SanJobes there that they were planted. Okay. And so this has been one factor that is seen over this period. The rise and rise of Kianti classical in world markets in terms of prestige and value as well. And that's interesting to note as well. You mentioned the consortium, which is celebrating one hundred years this year. Is that right? That's correct. Yes. It kicked off last week here in Florence with a big conference and presentation. There's a nice logo and so on. And it is the oldest wine consortium produces consortium in Italy. So that's gratifying and gives us a a lot of history. And now we are doing events, celebratory tastings around the world to to emphasize this fact. Okay. Now, John, let's just talk about your approach and philosophy to Viticulture that Yes. Certainly. Well, we start with the principle that the wine is made in the vineyard. It may sound obvious, but it's all our efforts and work carried out in the vineyard. We look after the vineyard quite meticulously, and that's to ensure that we can get the highest quality of grapes up to the winery during the harvest. So if you start off with really high quality ripe to perfection, if the grapes are in perfect condition, then there's no reason why you shouldn't make an equally high quality wine. So this is, let's say, principle number one and overrides everything else. Then the seller, obviously, it's important, but there's no there's no alchemy in in the cellar. You know, we've got nice oak barrels from the best couperages and a good bottling machine. We do a certainly a year's bottle maturation, for our top crew, super so called Supertask. All the work is in the vineyard. Okay. Well, John, let's take this moment then to just give an overview of your main flagship Chianti classico wines starting with San Yacopo. And certainly, we've over the years, we've created our vineyard crew. So we've selected specific plots for specific styles. So every every one of our candy classical crew, let's say single vineyard. The word single vineyards often misused because castello Vickyo Madro itself is a single vineyard. But within that, we have small plots. For specific wine. So our San Yakapo comes from a plot where yields are slightly higher. So we have a slightly different pruning technique. So there we from that area, we can produce a wine that has fruitiness, freshness, and easy to drink. So is always released, the new vintage one year after the previous harvest. So now in October, November of twenty four, we'd be releasing a vintage twenty three. And that is matured exclusively. In larger barrels. So to retain the freshness and fruitiness, large oak means five thousand meters. Italian wine podcast, If you think you love wine as much as we do, then give us a like and a follow anywhere you get your pods. And then we have our Reserver Reserver. Petri. We give each wine a specific name, petri, because the petri family were owners of Castello Picchu Major between eighteen fifty. And nineteen ten. So reserve a petri, again, from its own vineyard, slightly different pruning to reduce the yields. County classic or you can predict the yield the maximum per hectare is five thousand two hundred liters, fifty two hectoliters, which is very low. But for reserve, we're around forty four, forty five. So ten percent approximately less than for and the wine has longer skin contact during a fermentation and then matures in large and smaller, oak barrels. There's also a component of, carbonate in that. There's about ten percent carbonate. And the cabinet is matured in the the the classic French Barrick. I'd like to underline that our Sangeo beze does not go into Barrick. We only use a oak barrels, small, large, but no no two hundred and twenty five liter size for the sangro Verze. We then have a which is the relatively new a category of candy classic. Also, three categories now. And there, the yields go down even more to get to grand civilization on a level. We're on about thirty eight to forty two hectoliters, per hectare, which which is really very, very low. And we have, which you mentioned earlier. Which is with a small percentage of and then we have the newest one which is a hundred percent just and that's an extreme wine, we say on the on the back level, an extreme wine uncompromising from the stonious vineyard at Castel Vico match. Is le borle than the actual vinyard within the vineyard. Yes. A section within. Yeah. Lebonnet is also geographical location. It's a hamlet on the road which borders with Casteno. There's the road sign that says lebonne. So hypothetically, our neighbors, if they planted, a vineyard on their land, and it bordered with Lebonne, they would be able to use that name. It's a geographical location. So it's not, as such, it's not a registered trademark. We'd be delighted if other people did plant there. John, that's a great overview of the Chianti classico. Wines produced at Castaro Vicchio Majo. I know you produce other wines as well, but I'd like to turn now to wine hospitality because I know this is an important element of your activities. I know too that thirty five years ago, you were already pioneers in wine hospitality with with accommodation, restaurant, cooking school. And this is, you know, and we were researching and writing the wine roads of Italy. Wine hospitality in Chianti classica, but really across Italy was still just beginning to be developed certainly compared to France. It's another world now for wine lovers for wine tourists. There are so many wonderful opportunities now that simply didn't exist. You were pioneers, and I know your family are very involved in this and have helped develop it. So tell us about what you're offering now in wine hospitality at Castorovicio Manjo. Yes. Certainly. Well, we have, accommodation So we've now got sixteen very nice guest rooms. Half of them are in the main castle building, and another half are in the what we call CONonica, which is the presbytery attached to the church that we have here, and they're both very historical buildings. And, there are eight in the Castello, their apartments, they're big. They're all bedroom plus sitting room and small kitchen unit. In the canonical, they're normal, let's say hotel size, rooms without without kitchens. And then from next year, we'll have a cluster, a little hamlet if you like of four houses, which will be available for weekly rentals. The rooms are available on on a daily basis and that the houses will be available on on a weekly base. There are four four very nice Tuscum converted Tuscum farm houses. Plus those four houses will have their own swimming pool. For the rooms, here in the Castello, there's also a beautiful swimming pool with that infinity effect so you can swim and gaze out, over the valley towards the, the village of, and then we have a restaurant, which is independent of the rooms. It's in the Castello, and that is now open every day for lunch with service in the garden, obviously, in the spring and summer and warmer autumn days. And it's open, five nights a week, five out of seven. So, we also obviously have space, a big ballroom, for weddings and birthday parties or whatever. In fact, we have quite a number of weddings where people take the rooms of all the rooms and the restaurant for a couple of days. And then, cooking classes, we tend to do in the autumn or early winter. So at the end of the season. So let's say from a hospitality point of view, we we offer we've got quite a lot to offer plus, every day there are seller and vineyard tours. And the wine lunch, lunch with wine pairings. So that takes place every day. Gosh. That's a lot going on. And your family is now involved in this. Is that right, John? Your children? Yes. Because when you were last here, they were all, I think there were only two. Now the in the end, we had, we have five children, three daughters and a son, and the youngest is thirty two now. So and they're all involved in the business with my wife. So it's myself, my son, and one daughter, we're concentrating on the wine side. And then it's the two other daughters, and my wife concentrate on the restaurants and hospitality side. So we've we've divided things up. It must be wonderful and gratifying for you to have your family working with you. Yes. Certainly, you know, the they're on here, and they, one advantage is they they don't charge over time if they do a few extra out. Oh, sure. The disadvantage is they don't always obey me blindly. Like, Like they should. Right. Yes. I'm sure sure there are advantages and disadvantages as always. John, let's talk about the restaurant briefly. I want to talk about the traditional cuisine of of Tuscany and and perhaps pairing with your wines. Maybe just mention some of the really classic dishes that every visitor really needs to sample when they come to the county classical. Certainly, well, I've got our menu open in front of me. Just so, to prompt me a little bit. We change our menu four times a year so we do it seasonal. And, we've got three young enthusiastic chefs that are always, trying to to make the food, the presentation attractive, and, an experiment with, presenting tuscan cooking in a slightly different way. So one of them, and I'm looking this is the spring menu. We've got starters, preemie, the pasta causes, and the main causes. So a typical starter that isn't often associated with, with Tuscany, but it's la, Vattuta is a beef tartar, and this is a as a starter. So it's a small one beef tartar with vanilla flavored, cream cheese. And an artichokes. What wine would you pair with that, John? Well, that I'd certainly go for San Yacupol. That's nice, fresh fruity wine, which, you know, with raw raw beef goes goes down nicely. I mean, we also do a white now because we have a small, vineyard on the coast in Marema now. So we we have from there, a Venmentino, So in the summer, you know, a nice crisp Benentino, would would go well with that. Now, Benentino has the same name. It's called Saniacopo as well. So we have Saniacopo Cantico. And so that there's a let's say a a pair. Okay. Then I've turned the page and we have what this is really a classic. Homemade. I'm lip reading from the menu. Homemade egg with wild boar sauce. So that's you can't get much more classical than that. And there again, you could have your or a nice glass of of reserve. Certainly, reserve would tie in very nicely there. I'm imagining that those wild boar probably came from quite near where you are. Yes. Yes. There's a there's obviously a lot of bar in the in the woodlands of of Tuscany. So there's a if anyone's a hunter, there's there's quite a bit quite a bit to hand. And then on the menu, this is a a typical task and dish, but with a more modern approach, it's a so that's a big, big sort of raviolo. And that's filled with stuffed with guinea fowl and rabbit. Guinea fowl is is is common in Tuscany. So that's that's an interesting start. Oh, that sounds delicious. Yes. I'm beginning to feel hungry. Let's say that's more Saniakapo Enbelmente, you know, rather than than reserve. Okay. And then the main dish is we because we always have a vegan vegetarian option. So one one of them is, the the top of the menu here, grilled, more lean or artichoke, red lentil puree. Pienza pecorino cheese fondue. So that that's a vegetarian option. And then without the pecorino cheese, it becomes a a vegan option. So that can be either for vegans or vegetarian. That sounds wonderful, John, but artichokes can be tricky with wine. What would you pair with that? They can. They can be slightly turning. He hear the artichokes they cut very thinly and grilled. So I've I've obviously tried all the dishes on on the menu and that they don't leave, a harsh, tannic taste in the mouth. So again, reserve a pet tree would be would be great, with that. For the non for the the meat eaters, we have, again, in the spring menu, then it'll change, but this again is a is a classic brazed beef cheek and that's that's been brazed in our county classical. So here, you can stick to reserve a or obviously move up to Grand Salizione or even our our so called Supertaskan Santa basic Cabot Nedblend, which is Lipa de Lemore. And then we have, you know, the usual bisteca a la fionetteine and the florentine t bone steaks which are suitable for two or three people. It's the real florentine t bone. So they all weigh a minimum of a kilo, a kilo, and two hundred grams. So that's, that's not a single portion, obviously. Guest have that, and then divided up in certainly two, but three people quite easily. It's an extensive menu, John. It's quite an undertaking the restaurant in itself. Yes. There's five of everything. Five starters, five plastic dishes, and five main courses. As I said, we change it four times a year. And then then there's the dessert menu, all our desserts are strictly, homemade. Do you make a vino? We, we have a a vino. It's not vincento. It's a a dessert wine, but it's younger than a vincanto. So it's it's sweet, but it's fresher and and fruitier. So it's it can't be called vincanto, but it is, a tuscant dessert. Is it a passito? Yes. Yes. Although on on the label, it's a because it's it's a fortified one. Okay. So it's, it's a. Well, John, you've, you've taken us on a really good tour this morning of Castello Vicky O Majo of your family history of the evolution of mine and hospitality in the Kianti classical. And really, I think given us a picture of what a special place this quite splendid castle on a hilltop is. So I hope our listeners who are all around the world will come to Kianti Classico and will make their way to Grive in Kianti and up to the Castaro Vicchio Madjo. I'm longing to return myself. It's been too long. It's been a great pleasure catching up with you again. I've really enjoyed meeting you here this morning. Well, thank you, Mark. No. It's been great to, to make contact. And hopefully, we'll be able to talk. Let's let's not wait another thirty five years. It's that might be a bit too long. Maybe. Too. Oh, great, John. Thank you again for being my guest today. And I I hope you have a, a good growing season and a good season of visitors to Castellovicio Mancho this year. On all the best to you and your family. Thank you very much. And please, tell your listeners if, you know, if they if they're your listeners went and they they booked a room or they're just coming for a visit, to mention it at check-in or wherever and I'd be delighted to say a a person or hello. Well, that's great to hear. So I hope people will certainly be doing that. I'm sure they will. So thank you, John, and, Appresto sparrow. Thank you, Mark. All the very best that you and Sam. All the best, Charles. Bye. Bye bye. Harida Dachi. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of wine, food, and travel. With me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe right here, or wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at Italianwine podcast dot com. Until next time.