Ep. 262 Bruce Sanderson (Wine Spectator) on Wine Journalism, Barolo and Montalcino

This episode of the Italian wine podcast is brought to you by the new book, San Giovanni, Lambruschco, and other vine stories. Researchers Atilio Shenza, and Cerrenne Macio, explore the origin and ancestry of European great varieties in a tale of migration, conquest, exploration, and cross cultural exchange. Hardback available on Amazon in Europe, Kindle version available worldwide. Find out more at Italian winebook dot com. Italian wine podcast. Chincin with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast with me Monte Walden. My guest today is Bruce Sam Anderson, Bruce is a wine writer. He joined the wine spectator in nineteen eighty three and has been senior editor since nineteen ninety nine. Welcome. Thank you, Marty. I'm not that old though. I I joined in ninety three. Oh, what did I say? Eighteen ninety three. Oh, no. Eighteen ninety three. Eighteen ninety three. Eighteen ninety three. Eighteen ninety three. Yeah. That's all the power of good wine. Keep you young. So it was nineteen ninety three. Nineteen ninety three. Okay. So how did what was life like before wine spectator, what were you doing? You seem to have a quite eventful career? Yeah. Prior to joining the magazine, I worked as a model and an actor. I did that for eleven years. I my first job as a model was in Sydney Australia while I was doing research for my master's degree. So modeling that time, I was, I was playing the role of a young businessman. So you were modeling suits and shirts and ties? Yeah. It was actually a business that, that an American man had started, and we were sitting around the table. I was the young businessman. There was an older businessman, and then there was, an executive assistant, which was his business. He was, he was hiring executive assistants. For traveling business people. Okay. Was that well paid? At the time, as, as a student, yeah, I thought it was great. You know, we sat around. We had lunch. We drank a bottle of wine, and then he gave me fifty bucks. And I said, Hey, I could do this. And, how do did you do that jump for? Well, that was one specific job. And then, when I left Australia, I started getting involved in the business, and it really wasn't until I moved to Toronto in, nineteen eighty one that I started doing it full time. Mhmm. And then the wine, one wine? I was always interested in wine. Probably from the time I was in high school as a teenager. I read a book that, someone had had written. Basically, was a they had tasted all the brands that were available in the liquor control board of Ontario. And I thought it was fascinating. And I think, wow, you know, that's really interesting to taste all these wines and to describe them. And then it was a, maybe, a little bit of a James Bond fantasy too that, you know, if I knew about wine, it would make me a little more cultured and, you know, the, the women would be interested, especially when I, by the time I got to university. So it was a little bit of both. And then, my modeling career took me to Europe, first to Germany, but also to Italy and France. And I was able to see the wine culture more closely, the European wine culture. And, in nineteen eighty seven, I also did the German wine Academy Tour. So we visited five wine regions. We visited wineries. And that piqued my interest even more, when I returned to Toronto, I started reading as much as I could about it. And then I moved to New York in, nineteen ninety to New York City, and got involved in the International Wine Center as a teaching assistant. There, we would set up tastings and clean up after tastings, but I got to sit in on some great tastings. You know, we would do. A winemaker would come in, present his Wines, or someone like, Clive Coates, Andre Chelichev, who I met, he was, he was in his 90s by that point, and a number of of winery owners and winemakers. So it was a great opportunity to taste wine and learn about wine. I also started working part time with a company called Burgundy wine Company. They imported, burgundy, obviously, and Roan Valley wines in the beginning. And, in nineteen one or nineteen ninety two. I also worked part time at Windows on the world. Which is what was that? Windows on the world was at the top of the World Trade Center, which, unfortunately, is no longer. It, they had a a a large rest front, including the cellar in the sky, which was, a tasting menu with set wines. And, I worked first in the wine room, giving out wines to to the waiters and captains, and then I worked for about a year and a half part time on the floor as only a. So you've got interesting background, so you're individual, but you you can work well in a team? I would say that. You know, I I played Don't be modest. I played sports when I was growing up mostly ice hockey. So, obviously, you know, a team sport. Definitely. So that was that. So you got sort of face to face experience of public enjoying or otherwise wine and how they drink it and what they what their comments are. How did you then transfer into wine writing as a full time occupation I decided that after three years working in the business part time, and I still loved wine. In fact, I loved it even more. You know, the writing was on the wall. My wine resume was growing faster than my acting resume. So it was time to look for something full time. The opportunity presented itself at wine spectator. They were looking for a tasting coordinator. I was obviously very interested it in tasting wines. And, so I applied for the job. I didn't hear anything for about three months. Then one day, I got a call and the, managing editor at the time said, look, we had to put it on the back burner because we are redesigning the the magazine, but if you're still interested, I'd like you to come in for an interview. So I did called me the next day or a day later and said, Marvin would like to meet you. Marvin Shankin, the the owner and publisher editor of, of wine spectator Peter. Are you nervous? Yeah. I was a little nervous. You know, I'd heard I'd heard about, Marvin's reputation. Strong character. Strong character shoots from the hip. So I went in and, I remember very well. He said, well, you know, you're, you're a model, you're an actor. What's to say that, you don't get a call for an audition. You get a part in the movie and you're, and you're gonna walk away. You're just gonna leave. And I said, well, I'm not gonna do that because I'm committed. This is what I want. And, so the next day they offered me the job. Yeah. So it was a definitive change in your, in your life trajectory. Absolutely. And it started it out, my my first title was tasting coordinator, and, the the editorial offices of wine spectator had recently moved from San Francisco to New York. They had never tasted in New York, so my mandate was to set up the tasting program which was great for me because that was really my focus. And I had actually gotten involved in the master wine program at about the same time, beginning of nineteen ninety three. And in ninety four, I sat the exam for the first time, and I passed the tasting portion of it. So I think, you know, it validated the fact that I was the right guy for the job and also that I should be a taster, an official taster. So when you say a tasting coordinator, you know, I was thinking right. So you're calling up wineries, we're doing a Sonoma pinot noir tasting. You contact the wineries that make it and say please send us three or four or six bottles. This is the address. Thank you very much. Pretty much. Yeah. And from doing a quote, menial task, which just require some organizational skills, you have become one of the most well known respected writers in the industry. So how did how did you was it latent talent? Was it just sheer luck hardware. Well, I I I don't be modest. I know you're Canadian. I know I know I know you guys are very general, a cute generalization, but modesty, but don't don't hide your talent under a bush. We wanna hear about exactly their steps and how did you get there? I think it's all of those things, combination. It's certainly look, I knew I was a good taster, I had confidence in my palette. That's important, I think. Isn't it? Yeah. Have the courage of your convictions? Absolutely. There there was no there was no doubt about it. I knew and I was learning I'd learned a tremendous amount in the in the MW program. And, I'd already started visiting wine regions and, you know, trying to understand Viticulture, VINification, aging, aging, etcetera. So, you know, just my feeling was that I needed to have that that base of knowledge to really understand grape growing and winemaking and therefore be a a responsible and successful critic. It's interesting to use the word responsible, how do what do you mean by that? People make their livelihoods, growing grapes making wine. So it's a big responsibility when we give a positive score or a negative score. You know, negative score can really impact wineries, position in the market, whether people decide to buy their wine or not. So so it's a it it's a big responsibility. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, I think probably one of the I mean, would you say that there's with with a official quotes, publications like what Spectator or Decatur, that there is perhaps more of a, not saying respectful, but, a thoughtful approach in what we write as content, which is what pays our bills compared to say, a blogger, or is that an unjust comparison? I think there's definitely a level of professionalism. If you if you're involved with a publication such as wine spectator, you need to have that level of professionalism. I think, it it's I mean, that's how I act myself. And I also, not only are we reviewing wines for our readers and writing about wines for our readers, but I'm also representing the company. So I think at the very minimum, you have to have a certain amount of professionalism. So in terms of your diary, I imagine you travel a lot. Yeah? A fair bit. I try to visit, each wine region that I cover, burgundy, Piedmont, Tusk skinny once a year, and sometimes there could be an additional trip to Europe. So in terms of scheduling, are you doing all the nitty gritty or do you have you say less than I need to be in in Burgundy on week three in August or wherever it is, and you've got someone at least booking your flights and making sure that you've you're gonna get there. You're gonna have somewhere to sleep. Is it, is it that joined up, or is it you really doing everything yourself? No. I I do everything myself. Really? Yeah. Yeah. We all do. So you would know, I'd never would have guessed that. I thought there was, like, a team of fifty people just organizing your train tickets and your flights. And the I wish there were. You know, whether he likes black slippers in the plane or blue ones, and he sits on the left hand side of the plane or not. But you down to earth. Yeah. Occasionally, if we're doing certain, events, and maybe somebody else is booking your flight, yes. Then, you know, you, you give them some instruction. I like an aisle seat or whatever exit seat if that's possible. But generally, we we book our own itinerary. We book our own flights, hotels. I will often ask people if I'm going to a region and I'm not sure, you know, can you recommend a good hotel if I don't know the area by now. You know, you you kind of have a list of places that you like to stay and you like to eat. But it I think as far as the winery itinerary, to, you know, the visits that we do, it's important that that we do that ourselves because, you know, you can you can plan your program time wise, but also when I'm in a wine region, I I like to visit new people every opportunity I can. I try to revisit people that I haven't seen for two or three or four years. And, in in the case of, burgundy, for example, I I kind of alternate between, one year, it will be, Duane Bouchard, Favely. And then next year, it's, a Jado Louis latour, so that you're covering the, the major merchant houses on a regular basis. Your beat as they say is, in terms of Italy, you are looking at Piamonte and Tuscany? Correct. Is that right? Yes. So how do you divide your time up between those two pretty big regions? Yeah. It's Well, in terms of travel, I visit, I visit each one once a year. So it could be that, around Vin Italy, I'm spending some time in Tuscanyire or Piedmont, and it could be, you know, later in the fall at this time of year. You know, I'm gonna be in the other region. So, and in terms of tasting, nothing today with the availability of truffles at this time of year then. Actually, I need to change that Monty because I was going to Piedmont in November, and somehow they got flip flopped and, you know, I I think, you know, I gotta I've gotta rectify that. Yes. But in terms of tasting, we have certain tasting report, schedules. So they've they follow certain times of the year. And, obviously, we we try to, you know, we organize our tasting so we make sure we've we've covered the wines, but I like to have, a balanced presentation of different wine regions in each buying guide. So if I'm tasting three or four times a week in the office, then I would, ideally, I would split that between Berg to Piedmont and Tuscany so that, in each issue, there's a section on Burgundy, Piedmont and Tuscany. It keeps the plates spinning on each one. Yeah. Exactly. Our tasting reports are really a wrap up of a a year's worth of tastings. So they may occur in a specific issue, but we're tasting those wines year round. So what are the trends that you're seeing? Let's start with, Piamonte? You know, Barolo is is extremely popular right now in, in the US. And I would say, Barbara as well, a Nebulaolo in general. I think Dolceto is is suffering a little bit. Barbara. It's unfortunate because both those wines are are are good wines. Why do you think their suffering is quality that's not always consistent? Or No. I think it's it's it's no sex appeal? Because there's such a demand for Nebula. A lot of producers are pulling up Delceto and Barbara Vines and planting Nebula, which, you know, I get it economically. It makes sense, but it also means that sometimes Nebula is implanted in the best spot. Yeah. So and I think, you know, it's it's important that, that you have wines like Dorcero and Barbera for kind of everyday wines. Yeah. I mean, not everybody is drinking barolo or barbaresco every night on Los Angeles. Did you get did you get, I mean, some of us say, oh, it's all the fault of the wine spectator that these piedmontese producers are ripping out their barbera because these these America, they don't understand that they're giving these Navios hundred point scores. It's all their fault. How do you react to that? Well, it's true that if we give high scores, it's going to drive market trends. It's gonna drive consumption trends and and certainly production trends. But we try to cover all the wines, all the regions as much as we can. You know, it just it's the reality is that when I taste, Piedmont wines, by far, the majority of wines are barolo, you know, that that's just the, that's just a numbers game. But I, I talk about Delceto, I talk about barbarian. We, we also do a number of, features on our website, which we call tasting highlights. And there, we focus on values a lot. So, obviously, you're not gonna find too much Barbara or Barolo in those because they tend to be more expensive. And that's an opportunity to promote Delcero Nabiolo barbara, which, you know, our readers can find, let's say, for, you know, fifteen to twenty five, thirty dollars. Yeah. What about trends in Montargino? Well, I think, everybody's anticipating the twenty fifteen vintage, obviously twenty fourteen was it was challenging and, producers took a number of different strategies in terms of the US market if they bottled a fourteen at all. They're pretty wet. Yeah. So there there's a lot of anticipation twenty fifteen. I think, you know, Bernelo is definitely king Roso, but I I'm seeing better and better Rosos because I I think Roso is a good introduction not only to the region, but also for a producer. Because of the price point. The problem I have with with somerosos is that they're a little bit to austere and maybe a little bit too, too, titanic. And I think if they had had a bit more fruit and balanced, you know, that would give them greater appeal and wider appeal among Sumers because it's a wine that you can you can drink immediately on release. Yeah. I mean, I think, quality, generally, for the Rosettie Montecina, has improved. There are still some some stragglers though. And in some ways, they kind of, I think, blooming anything a while, you know, nobody really cares about Ross. So it doesn't really get much marketing. It's pretty much ignored, and they throw everything into the brunello, which I I kind of think is, a mistake. It's like it's like serving a really great dish with crappy bread. Yeah. A butter that's just not not great. It it just, it just, it just, it just kind of lowers the tone a bit unnecessarily. Or the or the appetizers aren't very interesting. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You think it kinda sets you off on a bad, a bad tray. We'll get right back to the Italian wine podcast after a quick reminder that this episode is made possible by the book, San Jose, Lambrusco, and other vine stories available on Amazon in Europe and Kindle worldwide. So how do you switch off? I mean, you've got, you you're traveling, you're booking your tickets. You've also got a write. It's not like you just did articles appear out of magic. There's a lot of I imagine there's a lot of editing as well. It's very precise what's written in the wine spectator because it's got massive responsibility is readership to get things right. How do you switch off? I listen to a lot of music. I love music, and I love different kinds of music, jazz, rock, country, poker, or, you know, what I might call old country, blues, a little bit of class Aasckell, not so much opera, although I've, I've, I've tried to learn a little bit about it. Where does that musical side come from? Your family? I, yeah, I think it comes from my family. There was always music growing up, always instruments in the house, you know, my, my dad played guitar a little bit. And, so I started playing guitar when I was young, and I recently bought myself a guitar, which, you know, to play more, to learn more. And, and again, you know, for, for relaxation. What brand? I bought a Martin HD twenty eight. So it's a very, iconic brand from, made in, Pennsylvania. And, they've been around since eighteen thirty three. So is that an acoustic guitar, right? It's an acoustic guitar. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I live in a New York apartment, so I don't think my neighbors would appreciate, you know, fender stratocaster waking waking them up, you know, Jimmy Hendrix. Yeah. So that's one way of switching off. Anything else you like walking, hiking, that kind of stuff? Yeah. I don't play as often as I would like to, but I enjoy playing golf. And, you know, it it it gets you outside in, in the, in the fresh air and usually, you know, in a nice setting with some birds and other wild animals. And, yeah, we, we, my wife and I, have a a vacation home that, that we like to go to. How's that? It's in Cape May Point, New Jersey, Southern tip of New Jersey So it's, it's a nice area for walking for, you know, there's a beautiful beach there so you can walk on the beach. How did you two meet? We met actually, at the wine experience, the New York wine experience in two thousand and one, a mutual friend said, Oh, you know, you you you've gotta you've gotta meet Sean. She's, she's from Canada, you know. So That was it. Yeah. So, yeah. So we met, but, but we it was several years late later that we actually got together. So So you're a bit of a slow starter? Well, no. We were I I was I was in another marriage at the time, and she was involved in another relationship. So Do you became friends? And then Yeah. I mean, she's she's worked the event for twenty years now as a sommelier in the back room, opening the wines, checking all the wines, making sure they're sound before they they go out. She didn't taste her. She's an excellent taster. Does she call you out sometimes? All the time, man. Go on. Go and give us some examples. Go on. All the time. She is particularly sensitive to cork taint. And, you know, I I usually pick up on a cork bottle, but sometimes if it's if it's marginal, she'll be she'll be the first to jump on that. And, you know, when I try to, I try to get her to, to, you know, to, to do a blind taster or kind of an AB comparison, she's like, no, come on. I don't wanna work. You know, that's Does she ever slam you on the points scores? So how did you give that an eighty seven? It's a definite ninety three? Not too often. Often, but sometimes, you know, we'll, we'll, she'll say, I don't know. I think it was maybe a little better than that or not. She played devil's advocate, so to wind you up just so that you, you know, to get you to expound on your reasoning. All the time. Well, that's good. Yeah. I mean, because she's coming in it from like normal consumer perspective, whereas you're a kind of wine geek professional, you know, full time head and that kind of sand almost. Yeah. It must be nice to have that kind of feedback. Yeah. It is. It is because, it keeps me on honest and, and also But that comes through in your writing. It come well, just as soon as I met you, just, I I knew what I just can't pre judge, but just to get your backstory as well, you're down to earth. It's not just because you're Canadian. It's that that is probably part of it as well, but you a down to earth guy. I mean, you're in a you're in a incredibly high profile position with a ridiculous amount of responsibility. Yeah. And anything that, you know, his shirt was dirty or his his his trousers weren't pressed properly or he turned up late where you got the name of my name wrong. You know, all of these things are basic human mistakes that can happen. And because you're working for such a high profile magazine, the only thing you're going to get most time is to be shot at. No one is often you're not going to get bouquets of roses and chocolate landing sometimes maybe, but it's everything to lose and nothing to gain. So how do you cope with that pressure? I take my job very seriously. I work very hard at it, and you had asked me earlier about the jump to writing. You know, I I didn't come from a writing background. I came more from a tasting background I so I always say I I kind of got in through the back door as tasting coordinator, and then a few years later, tasting director. But I had written a lot of papers in university. That's sort a Canadian way in, in terms of education. So I had, you know, I was writing more, let's say, academic papers, you know, making an argument or whatever. So that requires in-depth research Yes. Analytical Yeah. Skills, and then presentational skills and making sure that what you write is what you mean, there aren't any mistakes, and there's no ambiguity. Yeah. I prefer to do too much research, have too much information, and then try to distill it down. And I'll say it's it's process. I enjoy it very much. I'm sure my writing has improved. At least that's the feedback I get from my editors, and they're also very important in, you know, putting you on the right track in, organizing your thoughts on paper. You know, it's amazing sometimes you write something down and you think, wow. That's brilliant. And then you get some comments. It's like, maybe it's not so brilliant. But but it's an interesting process, and it's, it's one that I enjoy very much. Constantly trying to improve your writing. And and, you know, sometimes when I'm working on a, on a big story, and I'm just, I'm interviewing someone or, you know, ideas will come up, and, you know, this is how I wanna structure story, you know, or maybe I'll do this or this could be a good lead. So it's been a it's been an interesting process. It's nice to hear that you you describe your own quotes, fallibility in the fact that it's not you don't just sit down, tap out, tap out the article, send it off, and Marvin says, yeah, that's great. It's a process, isn't it? It's definitely it's definitely it definitely is. And, and and not only will I have a, an editor for the ideas and the, the flow of the writing, but then then you you'll get the copy editors who do the line editing. And, you know, sometimes they'll just say, well, I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Maybe we rephrase it. It'll be more clear. So but, you know, I mean, I take my job very seriously, and I work very hard, but I try not to take myself too seriously, and that, you know, look what I say is is is the gospel, and that's it. You know, I think in in terms of the terms of the tasting process, that the the one of the big variables in the equation is the taster. I know some days I'm tasting better than others, but the fact that that we do it regularly, it's like an athlete, your training recently, you're always trying to improve yourself. And, so, you know, worry on a on a on a bad day, we're still good. Yeah. I mean, you're only as good as your last race. Right? That's Yeah. That's the thing is. Yeah. But it's nice to hear that. I mean, you know, it is so well known, and it's it's just such an easy target to have a pop hat. And, you know, I have to be honest, I'm quite nerve not nervous, injuring you, but, you know, you are a very influential guy in the wine industry, and you really are. And, you know, I thought, what do I need to tread on egg shelves or anything like that. Excuse Canadian. He's gonna be absolutely fine. And in fact, that is exactly what's happened. It's been really enjoyable listening to you, and, the ins and outs of, your job and your very interesting backstory and the fact that your, that your personal life has sort of informed in a way your professional life. And you've got a hinterland as well, which is really important with your music and and other things. And I think, you know, you're the kind of guy I'd love to hang out with, you're gonna have a coffee and all the rest, and just chat about wine without anybody getting an ego out at all, and exchanging opinions with, with respect and, and coherence as well. That's really, really important. So it's been a real treat to meet you, honestly. Really. Thank you, Monty. Yeah. I've got top, you know, I would want to be honestly to catch her. I said, yeah, I I was a little bit. No, but, do I need to tread on egg shells with this guy? And, the German theme, what was all that about? The model I thought was it those, those kind of movies that he was doing then? Do I ask about that, or does just shut up? And just just hope he tells me or doesn't tell me. So anyway, I've I've really enjoyed it. And, next time you're in town, if you're in Montecino, we'll also exchange contacts. It'd be great to just have a coffee and have a chitchat, about Montecino, because I spent a lot of time with my partners from them, my kids at school there. So changed a lot. It's improved a lot. I don't know if you picked that up, but the Viticulture is much compared to ten, fifteen years ago, the Viticulture is much, much better than winemaking is much, but I just give us a comment on Montancaccino going before you. Yeah. Oh, no. I I I agree with you, completely, in in fact, I had a workshop yesterday with, with about, ten young producers from Tuscany, but I would say that most of them were from Montecino. And, I, I really like the direction it's heading. They're, you know, they're they're bringing a lot energy. They're bringing fresh ideas. Yeah, they're they're they're really working hard in the vineyards. And I think, you know, they're looking at their states in a different way than than their fathers and grandfathers did. You know, they're doing a lot of, examination of of of the different parcels and sub zones and, you know, microwave invocations and, and, and buying smaller, fermentation tanks and, and aging vessels so that they can look at all those differences. And, and I really think that, I really think that's a good direction for them to go in because they've got a story to tell. And and I think, consumers in the US wanna hear about that. They, they wanna know what's new, you know, and that it's not just to, region that's resting on its laurels, that it's popular, and, and, and there's they're not moving ahead. So Yeah. No. It's definite, been definite, probably. It's great that you've picked that up. Yeah. Well, let's hook up. Thank you. Thanks, Bruce. I've enjoyed it very much. Enjoyed it as well. I'm I'm really thrilled, and, I wanna thank you for your time. It's been great. Thank you. Thank you, my time, please. 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