Ep. 1017 5 Secrets Learned In China... | wine2wine Business Forum 2021

Talian Wine Podcast, a wine to wine business forum twenty twenty one media partner is proud to present a series of sessions highlighting the key themes and ideas from the two day event held on October the eighteenth and nineteenth twenty twenty one. This hybrid edition of the business forum was jam packed with the most informed speakers discussing some of the hottest topics in the wine industry today. For more information, please visit wine to wine dot net and tune in every Thursday at two pm Central European time for more episodes recorded during this latest edition of wine to wine business forum. Okay. Good evening, everybody. Welcome. Ev everybody knows JC. For the ones that doesn't know JC well, Let me tell you, and I'm I'm very proud because JC just became Veronese. It's now proudly belongs to the Veronese populations since, a year now. Yes, sir. Nearly a year. And JC has been, a long time friend when he was leaving in Hong Kong, and I was lucky enough to travel that part of the world and meet them regularly. So JC, of course, it's a WSDD level four It's a certified educational educate educator of WSTP, Vineetale Ambassador, Vineetale Academy Ambassador to mention just few managing editor's spirit to Divino Asia Before. Yes. Before. And, I know this sounds a little bit trivial, but he's also representing the ordinary tattoo for the out in Hong Kong, which is a big thing. And, And now in Dorona, and JC consult with many consultsios, it has been a great ambassador of wines altogether, but especially Italian wines. So he is a very passionate person. I had, again, the the fortune to work with him, while I was, president of the consults of the Ravalicella when we did some events back in Hong Kong, and, we always been, working very proudly with him. So JC, let me go right to the point. Yes. I'm frustrated because many Italian wineries are frustrated about the ch Chinese market. Yes. And, we don't do respect. We know that China is a extremely difficult market. It's very variable. There are, of course, cultural language gap for us. And we represent only about six, seven percent market share. Yes. No worries about this. It's a Right. So he's, he's uphill for us, and I understand that, but but I'm very frustrated from the point that There are not enough chai Italian winery is believing in the Chinese market. Yes. There are not enough Italian winery is focusing on China. I know personally maybe ten, twelve Brandon, Massador, that are placed in China to work for Italian wineries and no more. While we know very well the French and even Americans or other countries are at plenty, so what we have done wrong, because Italian has been trying to break the market for years, and we never we never passed the point of six, seven percent, whatever it is. So what we have done wrong, JC, help us to get the frustration out of the way. Well, well, first of all, I want to say thank you for these kind words, but I also have to say kind words because I'm particularly happy when Stevy, declared that Andrea was going to be the moderator of this, session because I have deep respect for Andrea for the work he's doing with Satorre in China. In fact, the those five secrets I will talk about are things that I saw Santore doing very well in China. So, therefore, it's, it's it's quite appropriate that you're the moderator, but also because you're considered you a friend and a mentor here in verona. So, I'm quite proud to share the the moment together. When we say that, Italy has five between six and seven percent market share, we are talking about the market share of import wines. Now we have to understand that import wines is only thirty five percent of the total consumption in China. So six percent of thirty five percent, we're talking very little, total market share. We're talking maybe two percent market share of the entire market. So it's very, very little. And, so why some brands like the French, country is more successful than Italians, I think it has something to do with what I called cultural empathy, cultural empathy. The French are very, very strong when it comes to understanding protocol, understanding the cultural particularities of the countries, they travel to and and they sell to. And this is what I want to to tell you, what I learned, in China. So those five little secrets. I believe that the French understand them very well. And perhaps, in Italy, we need to learn a little bit better, how to, to, to, to proceed in the market. Now you can hear my French accent, but I'm actually from Montreal. I'm from Canada. I'm not French, as such. And this is a very, very big difference. But even so You don't speak French. You speak. Just speaking with me, but, what I want to say is that for me, I in this photo, you see me, I was twenty three years old when I arrived to China, and I lived in China twenty seven years. And so, does that make me Canadian anymore. And so this is a difficult question that I'm debating in my own, self these days. But what we have to understand is that, in nineteen ninety three, when I arrived to China, things were very, very different than what they are today. And going there, like I was going to visit factories in China to source some products for my own business that I was, beginning at that moment, going to China was a totally different planet. It was not even a different country. It was a totally totally different planet. It was really unbelievable. And so for me, my experience in China has always has been tremendously, eye opening, discovered so many, many things. And this is what I want I want to share, with you in this presentation. Before we start going into the details, we have to put things in perspective. Of course, we we listen to the media. We watch the news. We see these beautiful photos of Shanghai. You have been to Shanghai many times, and and it's a very, very impressive city, very modern, very very impressive, but China is still today is a developing country. It is not a mature economy. China is a developing country. When we speak about developing country, maybe we think of, the the the most unfortunate part of the world, we see very, very poor people. But actually, China is a developing country. What does that mean? It means that most of its institutions are still not mature. They're still not well organized. Most of its, most sectors of the economy are not the mature. So it means that human resources are also not mature. And it means that consumer behavior in China is not mature. We see on this picture, the comparison between Italy and China. On a per capita basis, In China today, per capita gross national index, the gross national income, is ten thousand euro. But in Italy, the gross national income is thirty four thousand euro. So we can see there's a huge difference, in terms of, development. And so this is very important to put things in perspective because, we cannot approach China as we would America, Canada, Northern Europe, And we have to understand that it's very much a developing country. The first key, the first insight, the first secret that I talk a lot about, and people think I'm a conspiracy theorists, but I am not actually because the first key is way when, way when. My accent is, French, as you can hear, I can barely speak English. And so you can imagine that I really don't speak Chinese. And so the way I pronounce it is wrong. But anyway, weiwen. Weiwen means social stability. Social stability. Why am I talking about this? Because this is the core policy of the Chinese government is social stability to ensure, that everything is proceeding according to order. And is it because the Chinese government is authoritarian, a dictatorship No. We have to remember that in China, there is a lot of people, a lot of people. This is a photo I took, one year. This was the week before Chinese New Year. Chinese New Year happens every year in February, January, depending on the moon. And there's this massive, massive movement of people. People travel to their hometown to celebrate the Chinese New Year with their parents, their family, and they return back to the south to work in factories. And this massive, movement of people is very representative of something much more important. One point four billion people in China. This is huge. But what we have to think is in nineteen ninety three when I arrived to China, sixty six percent of the population, sixty six percent of the population was living on two dollars a day. Two dollars a day. So what does that mean? It means that this is, the poverty level. This is basically people not having running water in their house. This is be basically people not having enough income to feed themselves properly. So in nineteen ninety three, when I arrived, sixty six percent of the population lived on two dollars a day. Today, thirty years later, only zero point five percent of the population live on two dollars a day. So this is a huge movement out of poverty. The government has succeeded a tremendous task of making their population richer, more wealthy, of course, but, more comfortable with basic basic need. And this is very much related to the concept of food security. And this graph is very interesting. This is what we call the, livestock production index. Why is it interesting this graph? Because it tells us how self sufficient a country is for their food. And what we could see is that actually China has surpassed Italy in terms of its self sufficiency. In in in and it means because this graph, you can see that the numbers are above one hundred It means that now China is a net exporter of food. So they started in nineteen ninety three at a very, very low level, and then they eventually were able to make themselves self sufficient, which is very, very important. And why am I showing you this? And this has very important implication for the wine industry. Because as the middle class is growing in China, more and more than more of the middle class want to drink alcohol, And as you know very well, and you must know very well that, the alcohol of choice in China today is what we call mao Thai and mao Thai is a grain spirit. So what do you do with grain? If you make bread, bread is a food staple in China. They also make spirit from rice. Rice is also a food spare, a food staple in China. So therefore, The Chinese government is very worried that, as the middle class go, they will start drinking more spirit made from grain, and then the price of grain will go out of control. The supply of grain will be used for making spirit rather than making bread. And this is very dangerous for social stability. So therefore, the Chinese government for the last twenty, twenty five years have spent a lot a lot of effort to build a grape wine industry. This is why in China, we hear the news today, the wine industry of China is growing. The wine industry of China is becoming more stronger, better. But in reality, that's because they want to give confidence to the middle class to drink wine rather than drink grain spirit. And this is very, very important. That means it gives us big opportunities in China. Okay? But as the consumption of wine increases, the Chinese government want to control that consumption. So in the future, they are most likely to continue limiting the amount of import of wine into China. So it means that selling wine into China will be much more difficult than it is today. And so this will increase the frustration of, andrea because he will say to me, JC, you are discouraging Italians from going to China. No. I'm saying that if we want to go to China, we need to go in there with more sophisticated approach We need to have a better strategy, and we need to understand how to do the things, which brings me to my point number two, which is gamba. Gamba is bottoms up is dry the cup. So in China, I remember very well that people love to toast. Dried a cup. I remember very well I was on the plane from London to Hong Kong in nineteen ninety three when I moved to Hong Kong. And I was reading a book on the etiquette in China. What to do and what not to do. And I remember a whole chapter was written on the consumption of alcohol. And the first paragraph was never drink alcohol alone. Never drink alcohol alone. In China, there is this culture of gambling that is very important. So if you're going to drink something, you have to say cheer to somebody, cheer, Andrea, then we can bring. Cheer, we can bring. Cheer, we can bring. If we don't do this, we are seen to be very impolite. Not only impolite, but very rude to our host, to our guests. And so can't for the culture of Gambbee is very, very important. But the culture of gambling with with spirit with a tiny little cup like this. So imagine what happened when we serve them wine in a glass this big, and people say, And so they ride a couple, gumby. Drink the whole glass, the whole glass of wine. And at the end of the evening, they are not very happy to drink this very tiny red wine. And one glass after another after another. And this was the culture of wine at the beginning. So they don't really drink wine for the wine appreciation. Spirits is a way to socialize. Wine drinking should be a way to socialize. And so this is very, very important that has tremendous implication. If we want to sell wine in China, we need to understand this culture of gambling. We need to understand that alcohol consumption is, a kind of, to grease the wheel of relationship building, basically. But gambling culture is also related to something very important. Is that of the annual disposable income. In China today, in nineteen ninety three, when I arrived, think of it. The disposable income is the income you have available to spend the things on the things you want. Okay? Not the things you need. You need food, okay, but you don't need wine. You want wine. So therefore, the Chinese in nineteen ninety three had an annual income disposable income of one hundred and ninety euro per person per year. That's very little. What you do with ninety with one hundred and ninety euro, you buy some bubble gum maybe a pack of potato chips. Okay. You don't need potato chips. You want them. So this is all you can do. But today, this average disposable income in China is five thousand euro per person. Five thousand euro per person per year. So how can we expect Chinese people today to drink wine every day? It's it's not. For them, it's not a need. It's want And when we speak about a need versus a want, a want is a luxury. So therefore, I really have been advocating for five years already in this forum at wine to wine, that we need to approach China with a luxury marketing approach. What does that mean? We need to sell wine as a desire. A dream. We need to sell wine as a product of prestige. We cannot sell wine as, we would, here in Italy, that we drink every day. A wine becomes a need. We put it on the table. We don't even think about it. But in China, no, for them buying wine is like buying luxury. So we need to have a luxury marketing approach. And I think Victoria, you're doing this very well. You are selling the lifestyle of wine, which is what we need to do. In China, we need to sell a lifestyle, not wine. So let's sell less wine and more dreams, more desire, more lifestyle. And this is very, very important because The per capita income is still very, very low in China. The third concept, okay, so we have learned now until now about social stability. Now we understand that the Chinese government want to, favor the grape wine industry, but they will control this grape wine industry because they want to make sure they control the industry. They don't let the, imports dominate the market. It will never happen. We understand the culture of gambling. Now we enter something much more sophisticated that of Guang Sea. Guang Sea if you look at the word, one means the gate. C means the link. Gong c is the link to the gate. The access to the gate. Okay. What does that mean is that you can get access via your network. If you have a good network, if you have a good ground c, ground c, other people in Hong Kong, this is the bamboo network. Is all of the complex system of relationships that you have built over the years. It is this network that will help you to enter into a different, places where you need to sell your products, etcetera. So guangxi is absolutely key. But guangxi is a dim dynamic process. Guangxi is actually a reciprocal obligation. Many people in the West think that Guangxi is corruption. So when the Chinese government felt, a crackdown on corruption, they think they were many in the west think that the Chinese government was cracking down on Guangxi. No. They were cracking down on, real corruption, but Guangxi is still very, very much into, the Chinese culture. And this means reciprocal obligation. So if I do something for you, you do something for me. This is very, very important. So if I give you a gift, you give me a gift back. If I introduce you to somebody, you introduce me to somebody back. So this is very, very important. And this process of reciprocal obligation is what we call social capital. Social capital is very important. So maybe I give a gift to you today, but maybe you introduced me to somebody tomorrow. And so therefore, this is the way it works. So the exchange of gift and the exchange of favor is fundamental to the Chinese culture. And wine has a very, very important role to play in this context, because wine can be a fantastic, gift But wine can also be a fantastic way for me to signal to you that you are important to me, that you are important to my bank seat. And so, therefore, we could see where this is going, and I will make my point a little bit more clear later. Fort insight is that of signion. Signion means trustworthiness. I'll trust I'll trust worthy you are to fulfill your obligations. So, yes. Andrea, I'm going to give you a gift. But do I trust that you will return me this favor? So before I give you a gift, I will think twice, are you trustworthy? Okay? And of course, I know that you're trustworthy. I mentioned it earlier. This is just an example. But people before they give each other gifts, actually, they will calculate. Are you trustworthy? If I bring you in my network, in my guangxi, are you going to honor my guangxi, my network, or are you going to dishonor my network? And this is very, very important. Thank you for listening to Italian wine podcast. We know there are many of you listening out there, so we just want to interrupt for a small ask. Italian wine podcast is in the running for an award. The best podcast listening platform through the podcast awards, the people's choice. Lister nominations is from July first to the thirty first, and we would really appreciate your vote. We are hoping our listeners will come through for us. So if you have a second and could do this small thing for us, just head to Italian wine podcast dot com from July first to the thirty first and click the link. We thank you and back to the show. And the key point about this is relationships. So, as we saw, is a network, but the fundamental issue of is is the relationship building that we are, creating with each other. And this is a dynamic process, of course. But, how can this be applied in the wine industry? Unfortunately, many, many producers in Italy have a very bad with Chinese. They have a very broad trust level with Chinese. Why? Because many producers came into China, found an importer, and one year later left that importer, and found another importer. And a year later, they did this again, and again, and again, So now many, many importers in China don't trust Italian wine producers because in doing so, they have shown not only disrespect to the importer, but they have shown that they cannot be trusted because very often the the importer is left with the the inventory and doesn't know what to do with this. And so this is a terrible thing to do. She want to build trust. You are, everything you do in China is being watched. And studied by other people as well. The other thing is we need to consider is how does my wine help my importer build trust with his clients, with his relationships. And this is very important. And it comes back to what I mentioned earlier about prestige, the luxury concept. So very often an importer will list your wine in their portfolio because your wine will give them to the rest of the portfolio. It will help them make the portfolio look good in the eyes of the other, of their clients and their customers. And so if your wine does not have a good press dish back in Italy or back in Europe or in America, it will be difficult for the importer to feel that they should be trusting your wine to help them sell more of their other wine and this is a very important relationship. So how will your brand help the importer gain, trust with their own client? This is also the other aspect of the relationship we need to consider. Inside number five no. I apologize because I I I hear my voice going very fast. This is actually, a a thirty minute summary of a two hour master class that I conducted with wine meridian. So I'm trying to condense two hours of, of this webinar that I conducted before in thirty minutes, and so it's not easy. But I understand why Meridian has published this video on their, somewhere on their social media or website, you can check it out if you're interested in the long version. The fifth insight is, Nancy is very important because this is actually means status. So if Guangxin is the network, a complex system of risk, critical obligation. If is trust, yangzi is status. And why is it important? Because status helps you to fulfill your obligation. No. Status helps you to build trust. Status helps you to demonstrate to the others that you are worthy of fulfilling your obligations. Okay? And that you actually help the person to create a better network. So status is very, very important in China. It's very important because, the general pyramid of Iraqi in China is very, very flat. And as we see, they have many, many, many people. And so if the, hierarchy is very flat, to go on top is very difficult because you need to beat many, many different people. And so, status help you to demonstrate your position in that flat hierarchy. It helps you to make yourself more trustworthy so that you are a worthy person to include in the quanxi network. And so, status is not only important for building Wangxi, but it's also very important to show the the people how important, they are to you. And so the best example of this is that when I invite a guest in China and I serve them wine, and they must automatically see that what I'm serving them is, important. Not only because it helps me to establish that I'm an important person. Perhaps more important than you are because you cannot afford this wine. I can afford it. So now we are establishing the hierarchy in our relationship. But at the same time, I'm showing you that you are important to me. And this is this is critical. By showing to the people that you're important to me, it means that now You owe me a big favor. Basically, if I invite you in my network, me being more important, me being a higher in the hierarchy than you are, I invite you to my network. Now, you better deliver on your obligations. This is very, very important. And what's the implication for wine, it means that if your wine is not prestigious, I will not serve it to my guests. It comes back to what I said to you before. The core strategy to be successful in China is that of luxury. If you can make your wine prestigious, worthy of a luxury product you have much more chance of success into the market in China because not only people cannot afford wine, but they will only buy on things that are prestigious. But If your wine is prestigious, it will help them build grunk seed. It will help them build trustworthiness, and it will help them establish status. And this is very, very critical because China is a very complex society because it is a very immature society, immature in consumer behavior, but also immature in the way they do things. And because China is a developing country, relationships are very, very important. Relationships are perhaps more important than a legal piece of paper. A contract may help you in China, but a relationship with someone important or a good relationship with your partner will be much more important and critical than a piece of paper on a on a contract can be. And so I finish with two slides very quickly. The first one, I love this slide, and this is a slide I showed to wine to wine five years ago about China This is the it shows the market share of luxury consumption by the Chinese. This is, this was created by Baine and Company Baining company, as you know, is a consulting firm, a very important consulting firm. They advise, Alta. Alta. Alta gamma. Alta gamma, not Altaanga, but Alta gamma. You see? I have one in my mind, Alta Lami. But I'll I'll tagam, as you know, Altagama is a group is a group of a very important, luxury brands of, Italy. And they predict that in twenty five, China will consume forty five percent of all luxury in the world, all luxury in the world. So then I know looking at your eyes, you're saying, but JC, If they have such low per capita income, why will they consume so much luxury? How can they afford it? This is perhaps the most important insight into the Chinese culture today. A Chinese person is extremely pragmatic. Even with their disposable income, they will spend it on something pragmatic. They will not spend it on something frivolous. They will spend their disposable income on something that can bring them back something. Like an investment. And so for them, looks, the product is very, very important to give as a gift in order to build going to see reciprocal obligation. If I dress with a giorgio armani suit, I look very good to my network. I look trustworthy. If I wear a giorgio armani suit, I establish my statues. With everybody in this group. So looks like consumption in China is very, very important because it has a pragmatic purpose. And this is how we need to understand the Chinese because in China, social capital is everything. So if you want to be successful, we need to sell a lifestyle like factories doing in China. We Do not sell wine. We sell lifestyle. We show that the people that if they drink satori wine, if they drink your wine, their lifestyle will be improved. They will look sophisticated in the eyes of their friends. Their friends will start trusting them more as influence or micro influence. Wow. This guy has a beautiful lifestyle. I should trust him to influence me. I should invite him to my network because I can trust that this guy is going to give me face is going to make me look good with the in the eyes of my other friends. And this is very, very important. Now we finish with this to demonstrate to you my proof. There is a beautiful group called, I don't know if you know this group. I don't have my glasses now. I'm sorry. I cannot see. But they it's an interesting group of, people who have started a think tank on fine wine. So they published many papers on the on the segment of fine wine. In the industry. And they have asked why intelligence, a research company in the UK to, to help them make a, a research on the perception of fine wine. What do people think is fine wine? And they ask the Chinese people what is your perception of a grand cru wine? What does that mean? If I tell you fine wine, if I tell you grand cru wine in your mind, what does that mean? And here, we learned something very interesting. The top top numbers, maybe you cannot read them. So, oh, yes, you can read them so quick, so clearly. Ninety percent of the Chinese population think that a fine wine comes from a famous region. Eighty six percent think that a fine wine is a wine with high ratings, high scores. Eighty nine percent, it's coming from a well known winemaker. So if you take these three points together, what does that mean? It means it means status. So for Chinese people, status is very important. So for them, a granta wine, a fine wine wine, a fine wine is actually a wine with status. So if you want to be successful in China, you must ensure that your wine has status. And if your wine does not have status, at least sell only your best wine in China, not your cheapest wine. Many people in Italy think that, in China, we need to sell wine at one euro a bottle. No. You go there to sell only your best wine. Now let's look at more information. Ninety percent think it improves with age. Eighty nine percent think it's typical of the region. Eighty eight percent think it's consistent over the years. Eighty seven think it's made from a winemaker who has been making wine for many years in that winery. All this together, is. Trust. I need to trust this wine for me to think it's a fine wine. For me to buy this wine, I need to trust that it will improve with age that it is typical of its three of its region that it is consistent in years. So you could see that even though the Chinese have even though this survey was made in a totally independent from this presentation, we can tell very clearly that in fact Chinese people have a very high praise for status wine and trustworthy wine. And this is what China is about. We need to understand social stability. We need to understand that it's a gambling culture. We need to understand that It's a is the key because Guang si gives you access. We need to understand that to build We need to have senior, trustworthiness, and to have better we need to have Miangxi status. When we have Guangzi, status, we can build trust. When we build trust, we build an GRangzi network, and we become successful. That means just like you do in China. You show patience, you show respect to the peoples you work with, so they trust you. You are selling the Italian lifestyle. So therefore, they feel that drinking your wine will enrich their lives. It helps them to look sophisticated in the in the eyes of their friends, and it helps them to, the wheel of Guangxi, begins. And so this is my presentation. In the thirty minutes instead of two hours. I don't know if any of you have questions or maybe, Andrea, you have questions yourself to begin with. Well, I have a few comments, and thank you anyway. I wish we were that good, JC. You know, we haven't sorted out China. As we like to. Oh, this is the way I see it anyway. But I think one critical part is that, if you agree with that, you you need locals. I mean, it's, good to have Italians doing the ambassador roles in China, but you still need on your side Chinese people to work along with you. I agree. In fact, though, what I have seen myself, in China, Italianians are doing excellent work But the Italians who, are the most effective in China are normally most likely married to a local lady. They most likely are children in China, and they are committed to the Chinese culture as, a place where they want to establish roots, not, those type of people that I've seen who are, opportunistic. They come there to make a quick buck and and leave the country. No. I agree with you. So if you're going to go with an Italian person, at least somebody who can speak the language, somebody who's married to, to the culture. This is much more important. Otherwise, go with, a local person local personnel have greater and greater skills. And so this is a very, very, very important. I agree. Question time. Anybody has there you go. Yes. Five minutes. Okay. Good. Five minutes. Wonderful. Fine. Yeah. So I have many question that we selected. So you I understood how important this is to have a good warranty. But when we start, who will agree to link with us because we will never bring them anything back. I think that's in here. So, well, may maybe for for this question, you know, I think you can remove the mask. Yes. So is it is this better to Yes. So I understood how this is important to have a good one. But when we start doing build building business in, in China, we don't know, we don't have a lots of network. So who will agree to Really, this is a very good question. In fact, that many people ask me, how can I sell in China? I said to them, first, you are most likely friendly with other producers. And most likely in China, you have friends who are, already maybe selling in China or at least traveling often to China. So why don't you join them on a trip once? And then maybe these friends of yours in in your country, in France, or in Italy, they can then introduce you to somebody. And when you, start to build relationship with people, you need to understand that you need to build So that means much reciprocal obligation. So, if they start to introduce you to somebody, you then maybe can extend a warm invitation to that person you meet in China. Please come and visit me. Yes. Okay. So if they come to visit you, then you give them the royal tour, you give them face, you give them a good time, and so now you start a lead, you build one seat. And then after that, when you go back there, They invite you because they have to reciprocate, and they will invite you to a dinner with many other people. And then you make other friends, and then you you do this kind of reciprocity. So we have to think of China as a step by step approach. This is very important. Thank you. You need a lot of time to build the market. You know? The French actually got there after thirty, forty years of how the working. Thirty years. Yeah. The French started to work along the Chinese market, along like in the sixties and seventies. And the French, as usual, they started with the right food because the French started already with their more representative and, and expensive and rare wines versus Italians that, as usual, they invaded the market with cheap wine, you know, like eurovaldo or something like that. B because the French approach has always been, like I say, more sensitive, more empathetic. So, cultural empathy. They understand protocol much better. They understand the concept of Guonce, much more, carefully than many times. Let's take a quickly, another question. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. In fact, today, this makes me laugh because, you know, a lot of young people today, and we hear the news, that, natural wine is a very big trend in China. Oh, So we start thinking of the natural wine bankers in China as we see them here in, in, in Europe. They are very passionate about wine. They are very knowledgeable that they're very, but in reality, Natural wine in China is a trend. And so to look cool, they need to drink natural wine. And so if they look cool, they look good in their network. It helps them to enrich their status. With their network. So this is this is all related to the same concept. So at the end of the day, as as I mentioned, Chinese are very, very pragmatic people. So, yes, there is a subculture of people who really love wine in China. There is. There is no question about it, but it's so tiny. And the problem with these people, I will tell you, frankly speaking, is that they are they love wine so much that today they drink your wine, that tomorrow they drink his wine, and the day after they drink my wine, there's a zero loyalty with these people because at this moment in their, wine career, their wine lover career, they are too curious. They want to try everything. And so how can we build the market with this kind of situation? So the approach of, Guangxi is the same. So today, they love natural wine, these young people, but because it makes them look cool, and they look cool in the eyes of their peers, and they gain quanxin, they gain as a result, and they build quanxi as a result. And so young people are no different than than older generation for sure. And it shows that curiosity shows in the market because French after dominating for decades. The Chinese market, they lost a lot of market share versus the Australians. The Australians, basically, took half of the market as a French because they had a more modern and trendy approach than the French, which was appealing a lot of newer generations. Yes. So it's not a stable market by far. You know? You have to consider that. You're always moving around always changing. So it's not a stable market at all. No. The Prestige is the key. In China, they don't need to drink wine. They want to drink wine. And so if they want it they are looking for the idea of wine. They're not looking for the the taste wine. Last question, no. Okay. Grazie. Thank you so much. Thank you. I hope, you found this insightful, and thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you, Amber. Thank you. Thank you so much. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple podcasts, autify, PamelaFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italianwine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time, teaching. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. 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