Ep. 1089 Exploring Diversity, Confusing Optics For Inclusion | wine2wine Business Forum 2021
Episode 1089

Ep. 1089 Exploring Diversity, Confusing Optics For Inclusion | wine2wine Business Forum 2021

wine2wine Business Forum 2021

September 14, 2022
106,7416667
Unspecified
Diversity and Inclusion
wine
academia
covid-19
customers
italy

Episode Summary

Content Analysis Key Themes and Main Ideas 1. The Systemic Nature of Racism: Understanding racism as deeply embedded in societal structures, laws, and institutions, leading to inherent disadvantages for Indigenous and People of Color (BIPOC) communities. 2. Defining Diversity and Inclusion: Clarifying terminology, emphasizing that diversity is about differences in perspectives and experiences, while inclusion is about valuing, engaging, and incorporating every individual into decision-making processes beyond mere ""optics."

About This Episode

The Italian wine to wine business forum is holding a two-day edition of the wine to wine business forum on November 7th and 8th, featuring speakers covering topics like racism, diversity, and inclusion. The discussion will also include issues such as lived experiences and realities, and the importance of understanding the terminology of systemic racism. The speakers emphasize the need for change and educating oneself to be aware of the industry and its association with white. The future of educating the industry and creating an education process is also discussed, with a focus on engaging with diverse cultures and educating distributors to make wine accessible to the average consumer. The pandemic's impact on the wine industry and the need for education to educate distributors and to engage with different cultures is also addressed.

Transcript

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode has been brought to you by the wine to wine business forum twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth of twenty twenty two. In Verona Italy, this year will be an explosively in person edition. The main theme of the event will be all around wine communication. And tickets are on sale now. The second early bird discount will be available until September eighteenth. For more information, please visit us at wine to wine dot net. Talian Wine Podcast, a wine to wine business forum twenty twenty one media partner is proud to present a series of sessions highlighting the key themes and ideas from the two day event held on October the eighteenth and nineteenth twenty twenty one. This hybrid edition of the business forum was jam packed with the most informed speakers discussing some of the hottest topics in the wine industry today. For more information, please visit wine to wine dot net and tune in every Thursday at two pm central European time for more episodes recorded during this latest edition of wine to wine business forum. So good evening to everybody. I'm Giovanni Bertani from Tino Santa Maria. I'm very happy to welcome, Gurvinder Batier for this session. As a one producer, okay, the subject is pretty interesting. It's very interesting. As we distribute, and we are getting, more and more international. And even through, the historic wine, wine, markets, lines reaches, more diverse culture and ethnicities, we face more and more, what actually, good vendor is going to, show us. So we need to to understand other cultures. And we need to deal with them. So welcome again to Coviner. Coviner is also, brought us the first printed edition of, French magazine. It's the oldest North American food and wine magazine. And, it is actually the first printed edition after COVID. Also, Gervinder is, of course, the editor in chief and the publisher today of this magazine. Besides is also one of the few, Middle international academy line experts. So welcome again, and I'll leave you with a good interview. Thank you. Glad to Giovanni. We're gonna discuss several issues and touch on many aspects of this topic, which in many ways is very complex, and in some ways is so basically obvious. And the wine industry is simply an extension of society. So in order to apply these concepts to the wine industry, we need to first understand the terminology. So in terms of learning objectives, I'm not gonna read this to you because you can see it up on the screen. But let's look at this a little bit closer. The highlighted sections. Systemic nature of racism. We must understand that racism is systemic, meaning that is embedded in the structure, the laws and processes of society's organizations and institutions resulting in a system that advantages white people and disadvantages indigenous and people of color, notably in employment, education, justice, health care, housing, the media, and political representation. The next highlighted part is lived experiences and realities. Too often, the lived experiences and realities of bipoc are ignored in favor of a narrative created by white people, which often perpetuates and escalates racial stereotypes. Active listening. We need active and open listening without presumptions. It's okay not to know, but it's not okay to assume when you don't know. Constructive conversations. These are conversations intended to promote improvement and development, and groups and individuals that are interested in promoting social inclusion and equity. Some people just don't want to acknowledge that there's an issue. Let's concentrate our efforts on those that are interested and understand the importance of social inclusion and equity and hope that the others come around. In some cases, it will be because they have to, not because they want to. So why do we need to speak about diversity and inclusion? Well, I think it's important to understand that racism infects every aspect of our society. The center for race and culture defines racism as a system of power and violence that structures opportunity and assigns value based on the social construct of race where privilege is afforded to whiteness, unfairly disadvantageing indigenous communities and people of color. So let's think about that. Racism is rooted in the belief that certain groups of people are worth less as human beings. So just because someone is born with brown skin or black skin, they are seen to be worth less as a human being. This is why we need to discuss these issues. Now racism and discrimination are interrelated concepts. Discrimination is the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of skin color, religion, cultural differences, age, gender, and sexual orientation. Racism is a type of discrimination, but not all discrimination is racism. Now let's look at the definitions of diversity and inclusion. So terminology is important to understand this topic, and that's why we're spending some time on defining some of these key terms. So here's a couple of definitions of of diversity. The first is from Harvard University. And it's the condition of being different or having differences, differences among people with respect to age, class, ethnicity, gender, health, physical, and mental ability, race, sexual orientation, religion, physical size, education, level, job, function, personality traits and other human differences. Now the second definition of of diversity from global diversity practice, the part about this that I think is is key is, that each individual in an organization brings with them a diverse set of perspectives, work and life experiences, as well as religious and cultural differences. And this is the part that I think that is immensely important and relevant is that individuals bring a diverse set of perspectives and experiences. The importance of this concept is too often understated and undervalued in organizations. So the power and diversity can only be unleashed at its benefits reap when we recognize these differences and learn to respect and value each individual irrelevant of their background. This is where we get into inclusion. The process of inclusion engages each individual and makes them feel valued as being essential to the sec success of an organization. Now evidence shows that when people feel valued, They function at a higher capacity and feel part of the organization's mission. The cult this culture shift creates higher performance, performing organizations where motivation and morale at our much higher levels. Now diversity for the sake of optics does not equal inclusion. Emplying BIPOC for the sake of optics without having those diverse perspectives as part of the decision making of an organization is not inclusion. Its tokenism. The influence of mainstream media is it's an important concept to, to grasp because the mainstream media play a significant role in how the general public perceives marginalized groups. Systemic racism is entrenched within media organizations and the manner in which the media covers stories on race perpetuates racism because stories are framed through the lens of a workforce that lacks ethnic and racial diversity, the majority of editors, producers, writers, and reporters lack the context, perspective, and experience to know or acknowledge the existence of other perspectives outside their reality. And their reality is one that creates a limited narrative that does that does not reflect the realities and lived experiences of a significant portion of the population. Now this significantly impacts the public's perception of race if the media frames these stories only through one lens. In in the week immediately after the killing of George Floyd, most stories in local media focused on protests turning violent. There was no initial mention of systemic racism and why Floyd's murder served as a catalyst to the protests. It was only after pressure mounted and more people publicly expressed their outrage that the media's coverage start to look beyond a singular perspective. Now I bring up George Floyd because his murder infuriated enough of mainstream dissoci of society to act as a catalyst to start having these conversations again. And I say again because these issues are not new. These issues have existed for centuries, and we've been having the same conversations for as long as I can remember throughout the fifty six years that I've been alive. Outrage is too often fleeting. The question is how we can sustain the current focus on systemic racism that exists in all aspects of our society, including the media, and actually create change Or are we destined for this to be another brief period in history where change is demanded yet the needle only marginally moves? There's a little question that Black journalists, indigenous journalists and journalists of color are underrepresented in the media, particularly in decision making roles. If you have a homogeneous group of people with decision making capacity, they determine what stories are relevant, how these stories are presented, and who is presenting them. The media need more bipoc in decision making roles and not just for optics. Hiring a person of color as a managing editor, but having that individual still be bound by the status quo lens of white management or if that individual refuses to advocate for change, whether it be because of fear of negative repercussions or wanting to fit in and not rock the boat or to prevent other buyback from advancing will not result in change. Now this parallels other organizations in society and the media contributes to those issues. Let's con consider the culinary industry, and one of the biggest issues that has been brought to light is cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is the adoption often unacknowledged or inappropriate of ideas, practices, customs, and cultural identity, markers of one society or group by members of another group or society that typically has greater power or privilege without substantive reciprocity, permission, compensation, understanding, appreciation, or involvement. Examples of cultural appropriation in the culinary world, you know, all too common, for a white chef to get notoriety for their take on an ethnic dish, when chefs of the cultural of the culture whose addition of being appropriated are not acknowledged or recognized or compensated or involved in the process. And again, the media plays a role in this. Adrian Miller, who is a culinary historian and James Beard, award winning right author, writes about the history of barbecue in the US. He writes that for much of US history, African Americans were Barbecue's principal cooks. Unfortunately, starting in the nineties, the culinary legacy sea of African Americans gradually diminished or was completely erased in the media. And Miller writes, the cooks who get celebrated now are primarily white men, and that's mainly because it's white dominated media who often decide which food stories get told and who gets put in the spotlight. When people with a growing interest in barbecue want to know what this particular food is and where to get the good stuff, white dudes were presented as barbecue experts, even though many black barbecuers should, who should have been selected. Another example is white chefs selling butter chicken and naan bread and representing it as Indian cuisine. They are relegating one of the most diverse culinary countries in the world to an often bastardized dish, and the ignorance of not even doing a little bit of homework to know that none already means bread. And don't even get me started on Chai tea. That's that's a whole different game than I'm about going with. But what are the consequences of cultural appropriation? Doctor. Kelly Chung, says that it perpetuates generalizations and stereotypes of the marginalized group. It often misra represents and distorts the original meaning of these elements, exoticizes, simplifies, and commodifies them for display and consumption by the mainstream public. And it diminishes the relevance and importance of the element taken from the minority culture and deems that it is more societally acceptable only when the majority culture adopts it. When we look at cultural appreciation and exchange, you know, eating and enjoying food from another culture is one of the best examples of cultural appreciation and exchange. However, were someone of the dominant culture is profiting off the custom and culture of a marginalized culture without recognition and compensation. This is where the issue occurs. True appreciation entails some level of understanding and respect. Are you open to learning about what it is that you're using, or do you, choose to ignore the feelings of the people from the culture you were born from? Cultural appropriation diminishes undilutes. Cultural appreciation acknowledges and honors. Cultural exchange is a mute is mutual, and it's upon invitation. Rachel Kuel wrote when people think culture can seemingly be understood with a bite of food, that's where it gets problematic. Are you enjoying this podcast? There is so much more high quality wine content available for mama jumbo shrimp. Check out our new wine study maps or books on Italian wine, including Italian wine unplugged, and much much more. Just visit our website, mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Now back to the show. How do we avoid cultural appropriation? Ask yourself these questions. Is there a history of discrimination against this identity group? Do your actions perpetuate negative stereotypes? Are you depicting the culture incorrectly? Am I using someone else's cultural or religious symbols out of context? Does this offend anyone from the cultural group of origin? And am I benefiting at the expense of the cultural group of origin? Let me give an example of cultural stereotyping very specific to the wine industry. Number one, I think, you know, something that's very personal to me. I mean, is when people refer to Indian food, as a as a monochromatic cuisine, not recognizing the cultural and regional diversity of food throughout the country. And the generalization that one style of wine pairs with not just any cuisine, but all Asian cuisine, and it inaccurately shows the ignorance of those perpeturing the stereotype for the most part, white wine writers and those who have very little understanding of the cuisine because they write for credible publications their word is taken as authority. And I see this all the time where it's written that the only wine that pairs with Asian cuisine is sweet wine. And it is quite quite frankly, it's inaccurate, and, it's disrespectful and it's infuriating. I think it's also important to recognize that everyone's palate is not a traditional white palette and that the traditional rules on food and wine pairing are antiquated, irrelevant and create more anxiety and barriers to the average consumer than making wine more accessible and less intimidating, which is what the objective should be. Now another example of cultural stereotyping, I was born in Canada. I owned one of the most successful private wine shops for over twenty years. I was the wine columnist for CBC radio for eleven years. I've been in the wine industry for over twenty five years, and I'm the editor in chief and publisher of the oldest food and wine magazine in North America. Yet, I still get people. Always white people asking me how is it that I know about wine because your people are not wine drinkers. A harsher example of cultural stereotyping I had an English master of wine say to me that she would never go to India because it was a country filled with rapists. Now if she is saying this to me, someone who's of Indian cultural background, Who else is she saying this to and what is she saying to them? The octaves of diversity are often seen as success while ignoring the systemic roots of the issue, thereby perpetuating the inequities. And There's you hear the term diversity committee. So many organizations nowadays have diversity committees. Most often, they are useless and only for optics because these committees have no authority. Diversity and inclusion has to be ingrained in every aspect of an organization, and the policies have to have substance in all aspects of decision making and culture from hiring, advancement, workplace environment, anti races and policies, and on and on and on and on. Good intentions are worthless without action and progressive and positive impact, and change must occur now. When there is outrage, when the issues are at the forefront, and while the focus is on all our institutions, including the media. And more than BIPOC's telling stories and dealing with that deal with BIPOC issues, It's about having and considering different perspectives and seeing issues through more than a single monochromatic lens. It's always interesting when I talk to people about the direction we're taking with Quench magazine since I purchased it, to ensure that we are telling the stories that need to be told the way they should be told by the people who should be telling them and to make our content relevant to more than just the traditional audiences. When I speak with people who are white, the discussion is about how how diversity is very much a concept. When I speak to other people of color, it's more about making the magazine a true representation of society because diversity is not a concept is how we live our lives every day. And I've said this before, but diversity and inclusion must occur at the ownership, senior management, and decision making levels in order for it to have any effect. Now there's many considerations, but let's talk about, what are the economic benefits of of being inclusive? Number one, you're drawing from a bigger talent pool. You can hire and keep the best talent. Understanding people with different backgrounds, their cultures, their customs, and values has added value. The traditional way of doing things is frequently limiting. Diversity inclusion allows for creating new paths which can open up new audiences. Now those individuals, employers, or institutions who understand diverse views, appeal to a wider range, a wider range of the population and are more likely to succeed. In a global marketplace, a company that employs a diverse workforce and is respectful and understanding of other cultures is likely better equipped to succeed. If your sole purpose is to benefit economically from a culture without respecting or understanding that culture, any benefits will likely be short term and not sustainable. So let me give you an example of a very recent, experience, an example of bad business. Two weeks ago, I was in Bordeaux on a press trip with four others, four Canadians, one American, everyone white, except for me, which is been normally the case on, on many of my prescriptions over the last twenty five years. So one of the producers, an older white man, asked me if I was familiar with Canada, and I said that I was born there. And he looks surprised. He didn't ask the other white journalists if they were familiar with the country. And the conversation, pretty much digressed from there. But these antiquated views and interactions hold back the industry from attracting consumers and penetrating markets that aren't predominantly white. And it's important to recognize that good intentions are not enough. You need to have learned knowledge and you need to take the time to educate yourself. Now sometimes organizations do the right thing. But not because they believe it's the right thing to do. They won't change just because it's the right thing to do. If that was the case, change would have already happened. They will change because of outside pressures losing customers, in the case of media advertisers pulling their dollars, being shamed in public for being seen as not supporting and promoting diversity and conclusion, and inclusion. And at some point, and I believe that point is coming, If organizations do not expressly denounce racism, they will be seen as supporting it. It will no longer be enough just to be non racist. You must be anti racist. Now some of the the takeaways, you know, inclusion is only possible when the narrative exists and is communicated through more than a single lens. And there is a greater representation of our society on all facets and levels of decision making. And importantly, here, everyone benefits when we work to improve equity for all, including non bipap bipapod people. And I think that is one of the key, elements that sometimes, mainstream society doesn't comprehend or or want to understand is that society as a whole will benefit as we, incorporate, diverse conclusion in all aspects of of our society. I've left, some time here for, for, for questions, and, I think actually, you know, Giovanni told me a story about when, on one of your trips to China, I think, you know, that's that's a great example of, of, of looking at a market that I think too often look at, in a very, homogeneous way and and understanding that, to actually do business in a market to any significant degree, you have to understand So let's put you on the market. For myself, I by the way, I love your presentation because it's actually what I'm experiencing. In a lot of my trips in different countries and and different and meeting actually being contact with different cultures. One of my last trip before COVID was in China in Beijing to for a big wine event. And, I refused to be booked in a five stars hotel. In an international hotel. I didn't want to be in a golden cage and a golden in a bubble just, you know, just a meeting intelligence abroad, you know, presenting wines. I wanted to experience the culture. So I told this organization. I'm sorry not going to do it with you. And I I actually I booked in a hotelong that is actually a traditional Chinese house inside the old city of Beijing. Okay? And I spent the days there looking at people that were actually going out the house, going, you know, taking their bicycle or cars, you know, I I went to the local restaurants with a little bit of my local importers. I avoided as I I usually do Italian restaurants. I think it's very important to to understand the culture and was a great experience eye opening. And and I think, even even though he's he's just moving, okay, I'm not going to change, you know, deep, you know, you know, rooted process with this in our in our society that will take time is is just smooth things you can do in your everyday life and business experience. To to to open it yourself and understand and appreciate the culture. So even even with small things, and one thing is actually going in to be always with with with with the tie with your your your own culture. So try to mix with the other cultures. Thank you for for for your presentation again. And I think, you know, it it it, it's not just about looking at, markets, new markets that are traditionally seen as not wine markets, but it's also looking at existing markets and groups of people in those markets that have traditionally been ignored. And so the the approach that we take in the wine industry, I think, has to be a much broader perspective than what has traditionally been taken. You know, and I mentioned, you know, the Food and Wine pairing an aspect. I mean, those rules and I know most people now have have evolved past those rules, but it is still something that gets written about too often in too many publications. And it is from a very narrow perspective and ignores the the type of cuisine that exists even in North America. It's not just something about, you know, food in in different countries, around the world. It's about food also in in North America, and in Europe where we are looking at wine at something that we want to make more, accessible for the average consumer. And I think sometimes, as an industry, we don't give the consumer enough importance or credit. And we need to put much more focus on making wine something that is not intimidating. And that is much more accessible than, I think, what's happened over the last decade, in particular. I think twenty years ago, there was a great effort in our industry to make wine accessible to the average consumer. And then I think we got very much away from that. And the last decade, I think, has been, not, a shining light on the wine industry in terms of how the consumer has been treated. And I think we need to get back, to to understanding that we need to make wine much, much more open and accessible for everyone. We have some time for the questions? Absolutely. Yep. So my question is, as we work in the wine industry, and, in the wine industry, there is often, the idea that, education is the future, for, for, for our business. We need to educate our, distributors. They need to give their own stuff. What do you think about, for the future, including different cultures and indication? I think, I feel what I feel myself when I is United States North America is that, most of the people in work with, they don't really touch those different ethnic restaurants, and different culture because they don't know them. They don't understand that. There is an education problem. So it's not actually a think up, pure rasisma. It's sometimes they they don't they, basically, they don't know them. What what do you think about this? Well, I I think I think that's a very important point. And and again, I, you know, as I mentioned at the beginning, these issues are very complex in some ways, and in some ways, they're so obviously simple. And the simple solution to that, if you don't know, you ask. Right? And and this is where sometimes it becomes almost, I sat on the board of, of an organization, community foundation. And this community foundation, is the largest non governmental funder in, Northern Alberta. Grants some twenty eight million dollars a year into the community. And the on the board, the discussion was about, okay, how do we engage, members of different communities, the cultural communities that that live in the city? And it was fourteen board members around the table, twelve white board members and two non white board members. And there was this discussion amongst all the white board members in terms of how to engage, how to engage, how to engage these other cultures. And so finally, I just said, ask them. And and really, I mean, it's it can be as simple as that because, again, it's it's okay not to know. Right? It's okay not to know. But, the next step is is okay. I want to know, explain it to me. And I think people are intimidated by that, but they shouldn't be because just the expression of interest is something that will be new and welcoming, relative to what the situation has been which is basically, I don't know, so I'm not even gonna go there. So I think, you know, the the the best way to, find out about something, is is to ask. And I think that question, or that approach will be very much appreciated and welcomed. My question is about, about why media, specifically. I've been in the industry for twenty five years. Have you seen, do you feel like things are moving in the right direction? And then, also in addition to that, maybe even I know it's a it's it's a whole another can of worms with gender inequality because it's it's kind of the same thing. Have you seen improvements in that in the why media spear steer? Do I see things improving? You know, it's it's almost a situation sometimes where it's, two steps forward one step back. In some cases, two steps forward, three steps back. There's been periods over the last twenty plus years where I have absolutely seen progress. Yet, too often, we see the same issues. We see the same, things written because quite honestly, it's the same people who were writing twenty years ago, thirty years ago, that continue to write the same way today. And they write in publications that are considered to be respected publications, so their word is taken as as authority. And are there new voices Absolutely. There are new voices. And I love seeing these new voices that are out there that are giving the different perspectives. The problem is is that, too often there's too many people that are holding on to the old perspectives. Because these people have been doing it and writing this way for a certain period of time. And the audience, while, the audience is becoming more diverse, because the industry is welcoming more, a diverse audience in, the audience is still predominantly a traditional audience. So is the progress? Yeah. Is it taking time? Absolutely. Do I want to see go faster? Absolutely. And one of the reasons why I bought the magazine is to push that process a little bit faster, than than what I've seen in, in other publications. In terms of, gender equality. I I I think I think that is something that, and I'm probably not the right person to be to to be speaking to that in the sense that, I can speak from the perspective of what I have seen in our publication, and I can speak from the perspective of what, the conversations of I have I've had with many, female writers, and I think that I mean, Quench was one of the few few publications that, you know, fifteen years ago, our, our writers were half female, half male. We had gender equity a very long time ago because the magazine has been I think relatively progressive, compared to most. In the industry as a whole, I think I see it improving based on when I'm on a press trip, and, you know, the breakdown of, of the people who are attending. Do I still think that there's a long way to go? Absolutely. In terms of, in terms of compensation in the industry as a whole, there was a study done in Canada recently for, female winemakers versus will male winemakers, and there is not, equity as yet. And so I still think that in all aspects of, equity we need just continue to move forward and and there's a lot of hard work that still needs to be done. Do we have any other questions on our presentation today? Well, it's about working towards, inclusion. As someone who you know, builds wine businesses and companies from kind of the from the bottom up. There's a responsibility that I feel that I have to that we've had this conversation a number of times before. I'm very fortunate to be already versed in this, and I've we've had the conversation where I I didn't quite know. And I'm still learning. That's why I'm here. But, as someone who's working towards ensuring that you're running a business properly, we've come across the the challenges where there are there's a inequity between those who have perhaps the highest level of education and exposure. That does not correlate with, members of the BIPock community or or gender as well. And what would you what would you recommend or what what's your perspective on how to solve that challenge? Well, I think part of the issue is, you know, when when when the question is, there's not enough people at this level, from the buyback community in the wine industry, it's because it starts from early on. It starts from access. Right? So in order for somebody to have a level of experience, they have to have had the opportunity to come into the industry. And I think that's a time thing. Right? So it's it's it's it's a situation where where those barriers have been in place for such a long period of time, and there's systemic barriers. And so the way to change that is to actively look at things like mentorship, to actively look at things like, breaking down the barriers to entry and actually providing those opportunities that before didn't exist. And these opportunities can only come. I mean, any anytime an issue is systemic, The only time the only way to actually resolve those issues is for the dominant culture, in this case, the white culture to step in and say, okay. No. It's important that we have this diversity. And so that's how change occurs when an issue is systemic. But I think, you know, the and there's a couple of organizations now in Canada who, you know, have stepped up in terms of providing mentorship to to buy box, And I see that happening in the US as well. And I think that's a real critical, area that needs to be expanded on. If you have any other question, I would like to, in the meantime, to thank, and can govinger. We exchanged some emails before, on the presentation. And, I I told the Gervinder that, probably, I I don't see these issues only limited to, to, the current the current minorities or culture that they are suffering because of this russes, as is it as an Italian, okay, as Italians, we experienced this years ago. We were the minority. We were an underestimated, appropriated, okay, culture into North America. Okay? And then we became, integrated with society and part of society that was not any more possible to ignore. So my hope is that, even to the wine business, in the interim industry, we said there is not actually, reasonable and and actually respectful to stopping, to include minorities, but it's actually also a lost opportunity, as I were saying before. Where you're not able to speak with the the Indian community to the Korean. If you talk about, like, New York, for example, there is a big Korean community in the wine industry. You're using you use the Chinese community. You're using a partner at a substantial market, you know, a substantial market. Okay. So even even though even though even, you know, yeah, so I hope actually would be would be needed also under this point of view. Okay? And and integrating to education and to, okay, to understand that, you need to address them from society. It's not possible anymore to to stick to the old, you know, idea. So so, again, we slowly, into a long time reach this position. Now, of course, Okay? If you go back, like, forty years ago, fifty years ago, Italian, you know, restaurants, United States with spaghetti group dolls. Now we have niche and stars. Okay? I see when I was a kid, I was traveling with my father, you know, under tractory as back then. Now, you know, the type of restaurants and math and, you know, between the tip top restaurants, you find the Italians. Well, it actually would be because it would be like this, what I very, culture that you can find in the country and then, you know, American in general. Is a lost opportunity is a lost opportunity to reach to enrich yourself and and and meet, you know, and meet also under the personal point of view, not be available to reach the different communities and cultures. So thank you very much for the presentation. And hope actually, the change would be faster than than than what you see, you know, soon. Okay? You could, you could, it would be great. Okay. Thank you again. Gotcha. We hope you enjoy today's episode brought to you by the wine to wine business forum twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth twenty twenty two in Verona Italy. Remember, the second early bird discount on tickets will be available until September eighteenth. For more information, please visit us at white wine dot net. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian one podcast dot com.