Ep. 1163 Low & Non-Alcoholic Wine | wine2wine Business Forum 2021

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Italian wine podcast, a wine to wine business forum twenty twenty one media partner is proud to present a series of sessions highlighting the key themes and ideas from the two day event held on October the eighteenth and nineteenth twenty twenty one. This hybrid edition of the business forum was jam packed with the most informed speakers discussing some of the hottest topics in the wine industry today. For more information, please visit wine to wine dot net and tune in Every Thursday at two PM central European time for more episodes recorded during this latest edition of wine to wine business forum. Hello. And the very warm hello from Geisenheim to Verona. My colleague, Matija Schmidt, and I would have preferred to be there personally, but unfortunately, we are still in the heat of harvest and the lectures have started. So we had to stay home, but hopefully, there will be another time for us to come. Well, we are going to share the presentation today, and, we will be talking about the challenges in the production of flow and alcohol free wines. After the introduction, we will touch on the legal aspects, and then my colleague will take over and speak to you about the technology, some sensory aspects, and also possibilities, analytical strategies to improve quality, and also project, which is just going on here in our region in in right now. First of all, let me say there are several reasons for the partial alcohol reduction in wine such as a market demand, and we can see that this is dramatically increasing. And also, there are legal aspects there, which we will be touching on. There is partly a sensory imbalance, and we can also see fermentation problems. And from these points, you can already see that there will be two different products or pot product categories in the future. There will be the wines where we see a reduction in alcohol, but there will also be products with no alcohol. And there, we will apply different technologies, and there are also different legal aspects. Here you can see that the problem is and sorry. Part of that is in German, but you can see here on the side, it's the translation into English. We actually see two different problems. On the one side, since the beginning of the eighties. There's a steady increase in the alcohol content. And at the same time, we see that the, acidity is going down, and therefore the pH is going up. And that, of course, has a very strong influence on how to stabilize the product later on in in the bottle. What can we do? How can we deal with the problem on the one side too much alcohol? But on the other side, also not not enough facility or too high pH in there. This is pretty much the same thing showing you that there is an increase in the density here. This is for Edmonde, which is a small city here in Rhindau. So the the density is increasing and the acidity is actually going down. It also shows you that there is a very strong fluctuation going on. So it's not that there's a steady increase in the sugar content or steady decrease but we we will see more and more years with extremes as we saw this year, for example. And that's very often, unfortunately, serves a little bit as an excuse why we should not deal with climate change or that there is really no problem because often these extremes are used to really sort of, as I said, find an excuse why we should not be doing something. And of course, as you can see, this is definitely not the case. Here, another overview how the sugar levels and the potential alcohol in Germany is going up beginning with two thousand and one and ending in two thousand eighteen. And again, you can see there were years where we lower and higher sugar concentrations. But in general, we can see that there is a steady increase in the alcohol content in our products. Well, what does that mean? Very often we hear that people then argue, well, you know, if we have too much sugar in our grapes, then why don't you just harvest a little bit earlier? And then the problem is actually solved. We can do everything in the vineyard, and you don't have to do anything in the sellers. And here, we can only respond that wines made from insufficiently ripe grapes, From a sensory point of view, not very harmonious, they have more problems with the untypical aging, and they have much lower, nitrogen components in the must so that there's also a problem with a very good fermentation going on. Also, the aroma component generally increase with ripeness. So we are really waiting for, so called physiological ripeness to really get the best aroma out there. And in very many files, which we've done over the last years, we could show that when we harvest earlier that the the loss in enrollment is much, much higher than using later on a technical intervention, to reduce alcohol, but therefore keep the aromas. So the great there's a great potential to increase or maintain the wine and sparkling wine quality. I think it might be also interesting for you to see that this is not only a problem which we have to deal with in in Europe. Here on the right hand side, you can see this is an example from the from the state of INant files with the very famous region of Moses. And, here you can see that the same thing is happening. The sugar concentrations are just going up in general. As you can see here, already starting in the seventies and then ending here in two thousand and twelve, what does that mean? It means that the topicity of the wines coming from this regions has changed. So the lighter style, particular, where the mosel was famous for, that's not really existing anymore. And the question which is coming out of this is, are we going to adapt to new wine styles or should we do something in the cellar to be able to keep the wine styles we are used to? This is something the market will have to answer in the future. But here, which is also interesting to see is that the same problem is happening in California. Look, nineteen seventy one, the general or the average alcohol content was somewhere around twelve and a half percent. And in two thousand one, it was already close to fifteen percent, and it didn't stop there. It went on. And this is also an explanation why in California, the alcohol reduction in wine was really one of the the first areas where it really was been used in a wider range in the from the entire prod production side there. And, I think this is a very interesting, argument or factor, which we should keep in mind here. So but as I already mentioned, it will not going it will not stop somewhere, and here is a prediction of what can happen in in Geisna. He in our region, if in a warm scenario, it keeps on going away as it is what happened over the years. And you can see that in this year two thousand, this is measured in our German, weight, which is called Exler. To see here, we have somewhere around eighty three excellent on average. And for two thousand and ninety, it's already ninety ninety three. So it doesn't appear to be much, but again, it's an average. And in some regions, we can see that And in particular for reasoning, this is a little bit complicated because when you end up with products, which have all of a sudden fifteen and more percent alcohol, it's not really very typical for that kind of product anymore. Of course, for many, many years, it was very positive for us because in general, the wine quality improved. And I know this is a little bit an a difficult, overview to read, but therefore, to make it a little bit easier for you. We could it was calculated that one degree temperature increase related to an additional twenty one and a half percent, for Ryan in the one hundred point scheme, sorry, for Rhine, about twenty one percent for Mosal, close to thirteen points for burgundy, and also ten points more for the Bordeaux region. So again, for a longer period of time, it was really more on a positive side, but now we have sort of reached the peak and it's getting a little bit too much. So we have to do something about it to really be able to continue making the wines we are used to. So there is a need for technologies to reduce the alcohol content. And from a legal point of view, there are not so many possibilities available right now. We can use it by we can do it by using a heat, which is normally distillation on the vacuum or a rectification on the vacuum. For example, spinning cone column, which is quite famous now. But we can also use membrane technologies, for example, a reverse osmosis, normally in combination with a distillation or some other, possibility to really extract or get the alcohol out or we can use power proration. From a theoretical point of view, there are also other solutions possible like organic solutions. We can could work with, some CO2 or resins or, you know, some possibilities to really sort of very selectively reduce the alcohol content, but those, solutions are not legal yet. So they have not been accepted by the OID and we cannot use them so far in the, yeah, in the production. Currently, what, is still defined, and you will see in a minute that there will be some changes coming in the future. So we have defined alcohol free wines for products which have lower alcohol levels than point five percent. And then we have the partially alcohol alcohol reduced wines which are somewhere between half a percent up to four percent alcohol. And, they are also called partially alcohol reduced wines. And then we have the product wine where we are already allowed to reduce twenty percent of the existing alcohol and no declaration. So that product is still called wine. But also, there is a gap between four percent and eight point five percent alcohol and we can see more and more that there is a need in the market for having products which are just somewhere in the middle. One reason for that is that it might taste better. And on the other side, there's also the possibility of consuming products with lower alcohol content. What is already necessary here, and that will also be, that will be coming in the future for wine in general. That we have to put on the label, what are the calories? And so it's treated like like food stuff, but also not what is the only the calories, but also what are, for example, the what's the sugar content, what, what's the fat content, proteins and so on. As you can see that here as well. And sorry. This is in German, but we were not able to find a label right now in English. So there's will be a change coming, at least in the EU. It's not been published yet, but in the future, there are no alcohol free wines in the market allowed anymore. So up to point five percent alcohol, it will be called de alcoholized. Why not alcohol free? Because from a consumer side protection, they believe that there are still some small contents of alcohol in there, and it would be not correct to say it's alcohol free because there is it's a possibility that up to point five percent alcohol might be in the product. So up to, as I said, point five percent alcohol, it will be dealkalized. And also, the twenty percent reduction of his ex existing alcohol will still be called wine. So there will be no change here. But, and that will be new that, in the future, and so here's, here's a mistake somehow. That should be percent. If you reduce more than twenty percent alcohol in the future. It will be called partially de alcoholized. So that gap between four percent and eight point five percent that will disappear in the future. And I think that is really very interesting for the market because there are very many new products possible. And, I think that the consumer might be very interested in in that. Of course, there are a lot of different technologies available here, some to produce wines with a lower alcohol level, but also wines or products with no alcohol of, let's say, below point five percent. And my colleague, Doctor. Matias Schmidt. He will now continue and talk about the different possibilities. Okay. As indicated, I'm talking now about the different technologies. And when it comes to those different technological methods to remove either partially or nearly completely the alcohol. There are a lot of misunderstandings and, yeah, partly wrong information around. And our idea, no matter if you liked it or not, the technology, technology, or the technological intervention. We just want to give you a scientific basis on what is possible and especially on what is not possible to turn down the alcohol with So we will start here with, yeah, technologies called as vacuum distillation or specifically, like, in these two cases to the left or to the right hand side. Rectification columns. So this is a continuous counter steam distillation where we have just a short time of the wine within that's blunt. So within two minutes, the one is completely dearchalized. Due to the fact that we work under a vacuum, we can work at really mild process temperatures. So with around about thirty to thirty five degrees Celsius. We are able to de alkalize the wine completely. So this will give us an alcohol free wine, or if we just read a subload then, We turn down severely alcohol, and with the initial one, we can do a plan so that we just partly have the alcohol reduced. Those plants there, as you see here, clearly not mobile, they are in a, yeah, sealed or closed system, like you see here. That's a bit of specialty in in Germany due to taxation laws. In other countries, it is also in a bit more open system, smaller plants, theoretically allow also the possibility, to move them a bit. We have in Germany several, companies working with such plants, and they are, and I go back once again, state of the art when it comes to the processing of alcohol free beer, but also alcohol free cider and alcohol free wine. That is the most widely applied technology there. But they are quite on a large scale. So they require minimum thousand liters an hour. Usually, nowadays, as there's quite a lot of, wind produced or de localized by those plants, they require a lot of minimum five thousand liters. So for just doing pre trials or I want to enter the market just with a smaller lot and try. That's not that easy. If we think about the two percent alcohol reduction by such a plans due to the back plans and use all the wine completely, that would mean that you need a lot of totally minimum seven thousand five hundred liter. And when you think about maybe terror ideas or or keep plants or or lots separate. That's all already quite the big lots, especially for for smaller wineries. As we produce here, and wind fraction that is nearly completely reduced in alcohol, so below zero point five percent. Usually, there's also a side fraction, and a side fraction is theoretically to be used as a brandy, or at least it's it's a spirit And when we consider an alcohol reduction in that severe kind, you should keep in mind depending a bit on the technology we have fifteen to twenty percent of volume loss. So when it is about alcohol free ones, keep that in mind, a driving cost factor is besides the processing, also the fact that we lose a quite high quantity of, wine in terms of alcohol. The work the alcohol is not disappeared. The alcohol is still there in form of a spirit fraction. Then it's maybe interesting to consider a further use of that alcohol fraction and theoretically, it's possible to reuse it as as Brandy. Now we are coming to, another system. The the organization on the vacuum is is not a brand new topic. That's a point I want to add here at the point. First patent on the de alkalization of wine was, granted here in Germany in nineteen o three. Thirty years later, there was a spinning cone column appearing at least on the paper. So in nineteen thirty six, there was a first scientific description of that process, what we know now as spinning cone column issued. But it took then, quite a long time till nineteen eighty eight when the first commercial plans, was constructed in Australia. This plant, has a widespread, in the wine industry, nearly everyone heard about but the number of people really understanding what's going on there, that can be improved. The spinning cone column is spread worldwide as it is widely used in many, many industry fields. Mainly for aroma recovery, but also for processing of instant coffee and, non beverage issues. The wine industry is is just a tiny market for them. In the wine industry, the plant is theoretically to be used for practically used for dealkylization, or partial alcohol reduction of wine. It could also be used for desulfurization of must. And theoretically, and it works, also for the aroma extraction when we have mark or yeast. But in that case, that's recovered aroma is not allowed to be used in a wine, but maybe for some other processes. Those picture here indicates, a trial plan that we had now three times here in Geisenheim, a trial plans or a plan for processing smaller lots. So here, we could process three hundred liters an hour that gave us quite a good option to test with different varieties and on a certain, process parameters. But as you see here in those pictures, not what we consider a mobile plan. So we had to use a mobile crane uploaded from a truck And, I would say that's not an economic, sensible, option for maybe just having a small lot of wine treated. So what works for research, I would say is not working quite well for for the industry. Here, an, description for the flow of what's happening during the de localization process by spinning cone column. So other than the vacuum rectification where we have just one pass, entering the one from the bottom, taking out the alcohol free one, on the other side of the plants, here we're working with two passes. Here, just an example for you to understand a bit better. What is happening? So in our case, we took thousand liters of red wine that had initially fourteen point three percent. In the first run, we separated nearly twenty three liter of the so called pre run, initially or in former days, it was called by the Com a new robot that cost too many misunderstandings in the wine industry. I will let you know why later on. That first pre run fraction, was containing sixty five percent of alcohol. Then in the second passage, that remaining nine hundred seventy seven liter of wine were part of the very volatile aroma was gone, was distillated again in the same plan, but just by a bit more, rough circumstances, so a bit higher temperature there. So here we worked with thirty degrees Celsius here later on with thirty five to thirty eight degrees Celsius. And due to the second passage, we could extract later on two hundreds and one liter of alcohol fraction containing fifty one percent of alcohol. And then we had a fraction that was reduced to one point two percent alcohol. It is easily also possible to reduce it longer or wider down. In that case, you would just work under a little bit higher temperature or slower passages of the wine. In our case, it was fine with us to have in the end one point two percent, seven hundred seventy five liters. And we planted back the fraction from the first run, the very volatile pre run fraction. And due to that, we had Indiana the plan eight hundred liter nearly with three point one percent. So you see here, roundabouts, twenty percent volume loss. Also due to the facts that we have here compared to other distillation methods, a quite low alcohol content, and still a lot of wine or wine water in that spirit fraction here. So a third distillation of that fraction could help to reduce the volume losses here what some companies do nowadays. And here, just a map from the company in charge of the, spinning column, and you see here where those plants are distributed worldwide. And I think we agree not all of those dots correspond to wine regions or sevilla, or bigger wine markets. It's applied for many, many other industries. It's a multi purpose plants once more. I want to show you here the core parts. So in that column, we have pairs of fixed and rotating cones, and with the wine floating downwards, and in counterflow, a vapor going up, And with the rotation, we distribute the wine in a very thin film. We get an intense exchange between the steam taken up vehicle, but also other volatiles. But it's also achieved, with other technologies, like in the vacuum rectification, meaning we just have to have a little bit higher column and could theoretically and practically have the the same effect in terms of alcohol reduction. So this slide here should just indicate you, what is happening with the different fractions that I showed you and in terms of losses. So ten, fifteen years ago, here in Germany, for example, there were stories going around, the spinning cone column is machine to deconstruct the wine, and then you can refractionate it, maybe like Frankenstein, a wine to whatever character you want. And that's just not going to work. And I'll try to explain you how. Are you enjoying this podcast? There's so much more high quality wine content available for mama jumbo shrimp. Check out our new wine study maps, our books on Italian wine, including Italian wine unplugged, the jumbo shrimp guide to Italian wine, Sanjay Vazil, and other stories, and much much more. On our website, mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Now back to the show. So here we have the different fractions appearing during the processing of the the localization by spinning on column in a two step process. And the the echo content with that fraction indicated in the next column. And then we have three different aroma components. From the left to the right, the volatility is increasing. And to simplify everything you see here, in the end, we see for a two percent alcohol reduction more or less similar. Aroma losses. But the really interesting thing is where is the very volatile aroma going? It's going to end up in that pre run fraction. And that is secured in its loss. So here we see Quite small loss in the end when it's just about two percent alcohol reduction due to the fact that we'd land back with the spinning cone, the very, very volatile aroma fraction. Okay. But the other point is the very, very volatile fraction doing distillation. It's not necessarily the best. So when producing Brandy, there is a reason for taking debris around the site. So that's very volatile aromas often coined by more solvent nodes, etcetera. To certain extent, it brings complexity, but if it is too much, it's not suiting us. So forget about, we strip a wine into, desired aroma categories and and build it back. It's a very simple two step distillation, And no matter if there's a rotating cone or not, that's not changing physical habits. Okay? And to sum that up, flavor losses of the process are similar for an echo reduction by two percent, the spinning cone, columns, first run separates the roma purely according to volatility. So that's why I prefer calling it a preliminary run or a pre run, like, in distillation and not calling it aroma that causes too many unnecessary, misunderstandings. Yeah. And here in that slide, you see, sorry, here. We forgot to translate it in in English, the same aroma components, and just with for different methods. It was always the same wine treated with four different technologies. So the spinning cone column, the vacuum rectification with a, industry company, and here, another industry company reducing us, the Alco content. And here, it was, reduction by reverse osmosis covered with osmotic distillation in a second step. So to sum that up, vacuum rectification or vacuum distillation versus spinning cone, both methods are suitable for partial alcohol reduction and the production of alcohol free one. There are no clear sensory differences between those two technologies. It could be actually way more interesting for you how far or how near is such a plant. How can I access, a good service? Because something else is really important. The processing of that wine. A wine that is alcohol free is really, really sensitive to a lot of, Spolich microorganisms, even though if you add back, sulfur or cool it down, it's really, really fragile in terms of, microbiological infections. So you should bring it as soon as possible, back to your winery, plan it to a normal alcohol decrease back when it is about partial alcohol reduction. And when it is about an alcohol free one, you should bottle it as soon as possible in a sterile way. And here, once more, wine has more than thousand different aroma components, and it's just not possible to select desired aroma, out and increase it or separate it. Which are separate due to volatility. And now moving ahead, two bit more modern technology membrane processes. There are different membrane technologies on the market nowadays, and mainly for echo reduction there too. The one is the so called osmotic distillation. Those membranes are, available worldwide now. For gas management, In the same extent, the same membrane can be used for echo reduction, and it's also possible to desulfurize a must by them. They all go back to the same manufacturer and the design of the of the membrane or the membrane contactor is always the same. We have a very micro porous cell wall, tiny tubes. And due to that, we get a lot of membrane surface in such a membrane contactor, and they're working, like, what we call, or comparable to to gore tex membrane. So water is not going through that hydrophobic membrane, but just a guess. And that's to be used. And you adjust Novaview how simple those, equipment or those plants can look like, and there are many, many other manufacturers, around selling those equipment. The core part is always the same kind of membrane, and that's going back to, a company producing that hydrophobic membrane. It's very it's a very, very simple process. I moved back on the one side, of the membrane. We are working with the wine containing alcohol and on the other side, as so called strip medium, we have the water. And the water should be degassed before, not to have gas from the water going into the wine. And then we circulate, both sides in a loop till we reach an alcohol content that we desire. Until there's an equilibrium. So that explains us quite easily that we cannot reduce the echo content, in a higher extent. I think I have to accelerate a little bit to come to an end soon. Yeah, reverse osmosis is often, understood as a technology that can reduce the alcohol content alone. That's not that That's not really true. The arreso's Moses is just and here we can compare to, seep or to, fitter like equipment, that separates a fraction with small molecules just containing. And one of the smallest molecule we find in in wine is water. And ethanol. So ethanol water can pass the membrane. Due to that, in the first step, the one is concentrated in alcohol, s water actually permeates those membranes in a higher extent than the ethanol. Water smaller. So what to do then, then we have a fraction, nearly a roma less, but containing alcohol and water. And that fraction has to be reduced in alcohol by a second step. Other distillation or a further membrane process, like the osmotic distillation. Theoretically, you could also consider a replacement of water, but that's not legal, for wine in Europe. So that's so called dire filtration is not possible. So we have to reduce, by a further technology dendiaco content from that waterish ethanol solution. And how does that look like And they are service providers for that available. So on a card like that, covers, the card is coming to your wannery without the neighbors seeing it, and it's a system that can work completely independent on its own. So the only thing you need to run it is electricity and a little bit of water, but besides that, everything is on board. So here we have a stack of reverse osmosis membranes, and in that stainless steel cylinder here. We have for the second step, the de arcolization of that water ethanol permeate a so called osmotic distillation membrane. It comes in our case, we tested it twice. It was a service provider from France, that came to our winery, and it actually worked out quite well for partial alcohol reduction. But for the processing of alcohol free wine, those membrane technologies are not suitable. So, There's no significant change in extracts, due to partial alcohol reduction by means of physical process in the wine. If we reduce just slightly the alcohol contents for one percent alcohol that we reduce, we concentrate the one extract by roundabout one point one percent. That's not severe if we reduce the one by two or three percent. It's a point when it is about a severe aqua reduction by close to zero point five. If a vacuum distillation for alcohol, reduction takes place under the same parameters as usual for mass concentration, however, because there are a lot of equipment still around for vacuum distillation to concentrate must. We see, in general, high losses of water, and that means we have higher losses than necessary from the one that we treat. In addition to alcohol or volatile components are also removed depending on the volatility. Besides the loss of alcohol, we see with an alcohol reduction, an s o two reduction, and in combination with the lack of or reduction of alcohol, the risk of microbiological contamination is given. And, yeah, the sensory effects on a very quick, way now, alcohol has a very complex effect on on the wine sensory. So on the one hand, alcohol increases body fullness that's desired. Sweetness is also coming along with more alcohol, but on the other hand, it causes bitterness. So the majority of bitterness is actually influenced in a way high content by alcohol higher than just by the pure phenol content. And once with a higher alcohol content usually causes a certain need perception that's a direct physical interaction to the skin in our mouth. And on the other hand, when we have high alcohol contents. We reduced the fruitiness due to reduced volatility of the aromas in the medium due to that, also a reduced aroma intensity. The acidity perception is reduced. That's fatal when we see, current statistics, showing us alcohol is going up acidity going down. And due to the sensory effect of alcohol, furthermore, the to see if the acidity is going down furthermore, to a certain extent, saltiness is also reduced, but it's a quiet difficult, parameter. Yeah, here what I indicated, ethanol increases the bitterness, reduces the sourness, but way more the bitterness is increased. Another point that is often discussed or is often to be read, in many, many magazines, the point of sweet spot. The idea is everyone should have an ideal alcohol content. And due to the technical reduction, we have it in our hand. And we tested it intensively over the last years. And here's just an example for riesling that had initially fourteen point six percent. We turned it down to different alcohol levels. And we had to and we tested it with many panelists in different order, uprising, rising, decreasing, randomized order, and Indian's preference was just very, very inhomogeneous and widely spread once preferred. Sorry. They're really heavy, fifteen percent riesling, whereas another crew preferred more than twelve point one. And there's not the one producer or one consumer, sorry, the preference is just too widely spread. So to sum up what we found out in terms of sensory ex aspects, algorithm by two percent could not be significantly differentiated in repetition from the untreated control. And then we had thirty nine different wines that we tested against each other. That was four years work. We did a lot of tests. We compared a lot of technology. If we applied a technology in the right way, a two percent reduction is not to be differentiated in a plan test. And we repeated that also with so called three AF tests, where we give the panelists in that plan testing attribute to look at, making the biggest difference, even with that test that is very specific in in in discriminating, we couldn't see significant differences when we reduced two percent. That was quite a big range, but proved by many other, publications now, internationally. And even if we reduce two percent or four percent and compare them, so the initial alcohol content did not make a difference, if we reduce the echo content severely by, in our case, four percent, the tasters preference was very balanced between samples. So here, it tends like we are shifting either consumer like lighter style or heavier. So quite interesting. It gives us both possibilities, to, let's say, turn a bare initial one to two completely different one styles. Okay. And now to come to an end, I would like to talk quickly about a project that we now started with Alco free ones and an Alco free ones. That's actually a really quickly changing and and very interesting markets. There's a lot of movement going on, not just here in Germany. I would say internationally. So the the, interest is rising here quite a lot. I don't have official numbers in terms of sales, but from what we realize here, a lot of questions are there. That's why we, took this year quite a lot of work on improving an alcohol free one from our region here. And what tools do we have to improve them? So, once for the production of low and alcohol free wines should not should have first of all, a moderate alcohol content. So going from fifteen percent down to to zero, that's too intensive. So better having something a bit more moderates in alcohol before and due to the processing, we lose a certain amount of roma. So the roma, first of all, should be very complex, to resist it a bit. So some romas tend to suffer more, which are very volatile or which disappear quite quickly also due to oxidation going along with the process. So for our case, riesling or pinot noir, which usually have a very wide range of different aroma components. They tend to be a bit more resistant. And then in electrical strategies to bring back some of the body fullness because that's the parameter that we lose the most with taking the alcohol out is for white ones, we can work with c o two. Inological tenants, to a certain extent, even for white wines, bring back a certain body fullness again. Menoproteins appear also quite promising to bringing it, especially in a mixture a bit with in in illogical tenants two bits more rounder and longer mouse feel again. And to a certain extent, sweetness that's sometimes used excessively. We did, two years ago, a comparative trial here with alcohol free sparkling ones in Germany. And the average alcohol free sparkling wine was around about fifty grams of residual sugar. So, far away from what a normal sparkling wine would be. So I would say that common mindset is for that products has also tried to reduce a bit the sweetness. And, yeah, quickly to come to an end. I just want to share with you, cooperative project that we did together with the local Wimecrowers in our region, we sat together online first, of course. And created the ideas of producing together an alcohol free wine with our experience in the localization and with their actually need from customer side, we want to have an alcohol free alternative, something a bit more Wein Life, then Justin Craig choose. And we had division, and we actually now brought it to a bottle, a premium riesling from our region, from single vineyards and highlighting the riesling crepe and the Ranga region, and it's now a real alcohol free alternative, and the current problem that we have, but It's a vision that we want to change that. For alcohol free wine, we are still out of the category, of wine here in Germany. So some terms like the region or, like, the winery cannot be used at least up to date, for alcohol free wine. But he adjust some some facts on the projects. So we had twenty one wineries. Persist participating, we started with ten thousand bottles in the first rounds, from the next year on, there should also be products, or the same product should be in food retail, with an exclusive label, and he has just the time frame. So from starting in March, making decision, let's start, and the product is now on in the bottle being labeled in the different participating wineries. It will go to the market in two weeks in November. And, yeah, thank you very much for your attention. If you have questions, it's now the time. Otherwise, you find here also our context, to send us a mail. And one point, that I want to add here here in Germany, we heard. Even here, climate is increasing. But we still have products with a moderate, alcohol content. It's a niche market, but those products are still there. And here we see indicated I eight point five percent alcohol. And as it is in the quality range of a cabinet, it's not reduced by technical intervention. It's corona. But due to that, we have to move to the cooler spots, move up the hills, go to the side valleys where it is a bit cooler. The question is, for how long can we still do that? Okay. Thank you very much. We are open up for answering your questions by mail or by phone call. Thank you very much. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. 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