Ep. 893 A Matter Of Taste Exploring The Differences Between Palates | wine2wine Business Forum 2021

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For more information, please visit wine to wine dot net and tune in every Thursday at two pm central European time for more episodes recorded during this latest edition of wine to wine business forum. Welcome to a wine to wine business form two thousand twenty one. My name is Alice, and we have guest show here tonight, today. The talk today for this session is called a matter of taste. Exploring the differences between the Palace of Chinese and Chinese American wine professionals. So before Gusju master wine start, I will give a short description of our our guest speaker today. Gus is the first Chinese National Master of wine. He entered the wine world as a wine educator under the guidance of Master of Wise, Fongi Walker and Edward Rand, the founders of Dragon Phoenix, wine consulting. In two thousand seventeen, Gus graduated with a master of science degree in Viticulture and inology from UC Davis. Gus's commitments to the academic field of wine is evidenced by his m w dissertation about the sensory science of wine, and by co authoring a review paper called a quarter century of wine pigments discovery published in the journal of food and agriculture. Gus provides one education and consulting services to global wine professionals and consumers. He's currently a res residential educator of Dragon Phoenix wine Consulting and a guest lecturer of Napa Valley Wine Academy. He also gives tutorials and feedback to worldwide diploma candidates in the WSTT online classroom. Gusgy may not know that, but, back in two thousand sixteen, when I did my diploma, you were in my Thank you. Thanks a lot. I did pass. Oh, great. Glad to hear that. So welcome, Gus. Looking forward to your lecture today. Thank you, Alice. Alright. I'll just jump right in and start. The the topic is, how do I say it? The topic is interesting to me as well is, I will repeat again is the topic I'm talking about is a matter of taste, and we're gonna explore the differences between the palettes of Chinese and the Chinese American wine professional. It's a long topic, so I have to break it down. And the most important thing first before we think about Chinese or Chinese Americans or all these kind of differences is to define the term taste. I think, for me, I'm sort of based on Ali's introduction. I'm sort of a geek, in the scientific field. So I would like to define terms very carefully when we talk about things. And I also find out that in the wine trade, in the wine industry, people do not define the term taste properly when they talk about things. So eventually, people talk things that they try to find solutions and try to come up with the ideas but then they got lost. Okay? So let's do the taste first. And and that's probably the something the thing that people are very curious about, especially the people who are not far coming from a Chinese or not coming from a Asian background. Is what is taste. So I have to split taste into two different things. Okay. First is the sensory part of taste, which is purely about how we perceive things by our vision, by our eyes, by our nose, and by our palate. Okay? So with that, we have huge genetic differences. Among people all of all over the world. Right? And you'll probably have that kind of experience, around you. Everybody's palette is different. Everybody perceived the same wine in different ways, etcetera, etcetera. Then there's another concept of taste. And I have to say it's hard to separate it from the taste I just talked about. It is psychologically and from our psychologically and also based on our health condition at the moment what you perceive. Okay? So we have two folks. One is what you actually perceive on the nose on the palette and by your eyes and the other is how the psychological part your brain can possibly influence you. And for one product, this is very interesting because this is such a product that can be hugely influenced by all these kind of information, these kind of psychological factors, the information that come into your brain and can actually directly influence what you perceive. I'll give you guys a very classic example. Some people run studies where they just use black glasses. Use the glasses where, oh, that if you put the whites in the glasses, you cannot actually see the color of the wine. Right? And then they ask people just to smell the wine and tell people whether it's a white wine or red wine or a rose wine, or sparkling or etcetera. And people cannot even tell some people in lots of conditions cannot tell the differences between the white wine and the red wine just by the smell without looking at it. Okay? So we when we see a wine, when we see the color, when we see the bubbles, when we see the label information, that's affecting the taste already. And why do I have to talk about that before I talk about Chinese, Chinese Americans? It's because when we often talk about what kind of wine style or what kind of what type of wines that can draw attention to certain consumers. What I hear in most of the cases is, oh, this is a dry wine or this is a refreshing wine. And that is a sweet wine. So that certain people would love the sweet stuff and certain people love the dry stuff. Certain people like the higher acid. Certain people love the wines that sort of those but always food. But actually, when you talk about these things, you are mixing all these kind of factors that can affect your taste. And it's so hard to really study what's the real so called the palette of certain type of people and certain groups of people. Okay. So when I talked about the consumers, the Chinese and Americans so called palette later. I will emphasize again, and again, the differences between what people actually taste without thinking. And what people actually taste with all these kind of psychological logical factors that influence their palate. Alright? So, I'm gonna talk, have this kind of premise be be before I talk about things. So for, the, Chinese and the Chinese wine professional, that's another concept that I have to clarify. So I talk about the definition of taste. Right? Now I talk about the so called Chinese and Chinese American wine professionals. Yes. I do I did live in both cultures. I am from China. I lived in China for many years. In the sort of past five years, I live in the States, and now I come back to China. So I observe lots of different people, the Chinese over here, and the Chinese American who live in the states. So there are differences, but we have to define them because the first thing we I have to say is Chinese, you cannot generalize Chinese people. Okay? When some people see me and talk with me and then when they see some other Chinese people, we are completely different. Every single province in China, every city in China, the people's calc the cultures are different. And also if you look at, like, just say some people say, oh, what what his Chinese food tastes like and what Chinese people, perceive the Chinese food? Well, and if you really know about Chinese food, Okay? Not those kind of, how to say those kind of, very western view of the Chinese food. The local Chinese food, we have so many different dishes And from each province and from each city, maybe there are larger group of people who will be drawn, their palate will be drawn to the type of food that they like and they get used to because they grew up with those kind of food. And they grew up eating and drinking those kind of things. So they are used to it. Okay? I'll give you examples. For example, from in Shanghai, okay, in in this first tier city Shanghai, in these kind of cities. In Shanghai, people tend to get used to those kind of sweet food. Food with some sweet taste. Because that's the way they make a lot of Shanghai cuisines. Okay? And in in Chandu, Investity, people probably get more used to the spicy type of food, but be careful about spicy food. I'm gonna talk about that later. Spicy food has pounds of different types. And maybe for sichuan people, it's more about those kind of salty savory plus spicy, chili spice kind of food, and even with a bit of sichuan pepper, those kind of numbing spicy food. Okay? And people may get used to that. And in certain provinces like Shenxi province, they use lots of black vinegar over there. So people are probably getting used to those kind of more sour or acid taste. Alright? So there are these kind of huge diversity for people within a city from different cities. I'm not even mentioning the differences between people within a city. Right? So you need to think about that. And also back to why, I just mentioned in Shenxi, province people may get used to this kind of, vinegar based food, but be careful if you give a lot of Chinese people who has never tasted wine in their life. And when they taste the wine, they will just say, oh my god, this wine could be so acidic. But then you look at what they're eating, especially for certain shaanxi people. They are eating all the dishes with tons of vinegar. Okay? So they can tolerate or they would love they probably love sour food. But the sour taste are based on vinegar, not based on the tartaric acid dominant wine product. Right? So you need to really explore people by looking at where they live and their so called eating and drinking habits. And bear in mind the huge differences of pal of of the so called palace. Okay, by genetic among people. So when you need to be aware of the genetic differences, you also need to be aware of the cultural differences. So today, and there's no way for me to talk about genetic differences. We're just different. Right? Each of us is different from, well, from different from each other genetically, but I can talk more about the cultural differences. Now moving from mainland China, the China part, to America. Okay? For American Chinese, you also need to make sub categories among them. Why? Because Chinese Americans are not just a native group of people who just appear in the land of America. Okay? We have different stages and we have different period of time when you have different type of people who might have immigrated from, China, different parts of China, okay, to, the United States. And each generation could be different. Right? And for I I would say for lots of the American Chinese I've seen in the States, you just see huge difference in between if their grandparents or their, mother and father moved from China to the states. They are very different in all sorts of ways from the people like me who went to the states, recently or in recent five or ten years. Just for study and a pop perhaps they they stay there for a long time. And they are very different because if you grew up in an education system or cultural background, in within mainland China in different cities, in different provinces, versus you grew up basically, in American culture, it's very different. And I'm not even saying In America, that's also the way we look at China. It's like each state and even within the state, each city, like I was in California for a long time in San Francisco versus in Modesto, those cities are very different. Not only in terms of they look different. I've seriously talked about when you look at the Chinese Americans over there or the just Chinese over there, they behave very differently. Alright? So that's the general background. And I spend a lot of time talking about that is because we have to define the terms very carefully, what his taste, what his, Chinese palette, and what his Chinese American palette. You have to study them very carefully. And the only way you need to you can learn about them is you work with the people. You understand people. You respect each individuals and you respect the culture of each city, each province, each country. Okay. So that's that. And then I would talk about some of the difference that people might be curious about. But I have to do a, I have to say a thing that I'm not sure if, many people talk about this before, but personally, I don't see people talk about that. Okay? The thing is, there is a thing called, okay, we are making a wine that is like muscat or some sweeter rieslings or gewehr's tramiiner. Okay, those kind of aromatic, very fruity, floral, and probably has some residual sugar, those some those type of wines. Okay? And then I hear people talk about, say, giversed tremor or tremor. Okay? There's such an aromatic wine, has some sweet perception, all that. And then they started to say, okay, that kind of wine is such a great pairing with spicy Asian food, like Thai food. Or certain Chinese hot pot and all those kind of things. And I'm like, okay. Okay. Why? And people say, oh, it's because the spicy the spicy food, the spiciness, and all the fruity flavors and the sweet flavors can complement each other very well. Well, some people may agree with that agree on that. I personally have had great experience eating thai food, eating certain spicy hot pot from Sichuan province with geweghtramina with rieslings with sauvignon blanc even. Okay? Those kind of wines. But never ever imagine All of a sudden, one day, all Chinese and all Chinese Americans, all those kind of Asian themed restaurants started to show all by all your diverse terminal. They start to buy all your rieslings. They start to buy all your sauvignon blancs. That will never happen. Why? Because people don't even most people don't even drink wine. As their daily drink for in China and the foremost Chinese Americans. Alright? So when I talk about the palette here, I'm talking about the culture and I'm talking about the market. Instead when you look at the palette when diverse trimming and spicy food parabas together, no, it's not about that if you really wanna sell wine or produce wine. You are looking purely at the market. We do not drink. Most people do not drink averse tramina every day. Most people, even they eat a lot of spicy hot pot in China, in certain provinces, They would bring beer. They would ask for water. They would bring Coca Cola. They would do all these other drinks other than riesling and givers familiar. Okay? So when you ever wanna use those kind of food and so called a palette matching flavor matching thing, imagine Chinese people, Chinese Americans would pair these things, and they would do that as a daily habit. Don't. Okay. Unless you are such a marketing genius and you can just push the whole wave of this kind of Asian spicy food pair with riesling campaign all over the world. Well, I don't even think riesling sell that well all over the world as compared to chardonnay. Right? So that is, a thing that I have to say about these things is that when you look at the palette, you do not just look at the flavor matching side. Okay. So that's the thing. So that's a similarity. I have to say is that most Chinese and most Chinese Americans would not just say, okay. It's a Sunday. It's a Saturday or it's a Sunday. Let's go out and eat at the restaurant. Okay. Let's do Thai food. And let's pair with the birds from in there. Okay? I don't see that those kind of people. Alright? So that's that's a that's a thing. For differences, I have to go back. The differences between the title of Chinese have Chinese Americans. I need to go back and talk about, the, let's just say currently Okay? When I'm not talking about, like, in the past, let's say, thirty or forty years ago, how my parents would proceed. Why? That's a complete, different topic. It's a fascinating topic, but it takes a long time. But I would talk about currently what do I see? Okay. Currently, the promising things about the difference you see in the palette, so called palette is still the market part is that I just came back from California last year in August. So that's twenty twenty August. When I resume wine education in China, we have tons like a huge increasing number of people, Chinese young people who studied abroad before. And or they lived abroad before, or they are still living abroad, but temporarily, they they are staying in China to see their parents or do whatever things. And there's a huge group of people who have this kind of foreign experience, and they start to understand and they start to drink wines, and they drink lots of different wines, and they have higher level of wine knowledge. Okay? And that is very interesting. And because of COVID, they cannot travel freely either. So they are within mainland China now, eating and drinking. And what do they eat? They eat all sorts of food because they are exposed to all sorts of food. Chinese food, of course, if you live in abroad for a long while and in the city, in a place where there are not lots of authentic Chinese food, you would eat a lot of Chinese food over here from different places you would like and you eat them and they drink a lot of different wines with the food, or they just drink wines in their daily life. Us like their own lifestyle. And for those people I have to emphasize again is the are mostly those people who either have high level of education And mostly, they have studied abroad or they live abroad or something like that. They are the type of Chinese who can actually develop a life our habit of drinking wine. And there's still very, small percentage of people, young, people like them living in China at the moment, but is in the numbers are increasing. And that is the exciting part, although it's a small part of the market, but it's the most exciting part because really people really do drink wine for their lifestyle. Okay? And for Chinese Americans who live there, if they are, like, seven second or third generation of American, they probably already got integrated into the, American way of drinking. That's that's easy to explain. But for the people who are still currently staying there, study, studying there. Right? But they will grew they they grow they grew up in China, but currently live and study in America, in different places, they are the type of people I just talked about. They are more open minded. So they would try out things that really suit their lifestyle. Alright? So those are the major difference, I would say, is that most Chinese people still do not drink lots of wine, and they do they would never ever have this kind of habit of daily drinking. Wine as a lifestyle. We have the national alcoholic beverage called Bijo and people drink that. Right? That's a national beverage. And the wine would always be a small percentage of the market. The bijo beer, everything would always be the whole chunk of the market. But for the people who have higher education and would pursue certain lifestyle and if you have been exposed to those kind of interesting lifestyle abroad, they would start to develop a habit of drinking wine. And don't forget for those kind of people who usually study or live abroad and for Chinese Americans, Well, and they're, how to save their income and their wells is sort of, better than most, I I would say blue color or even those those kind of, most peop populations in China, they are still struggling of earning, enough money for the lifestyle that can have have dispensable money spending on wine. Right? So you need to think about the small group of people who would go out and really drink wine for their lifestyle. And one thing I have to add is that when I When I'm in America, okay, I deliberately avoid certain things such as the I wouldn't say the brand, but there are so many American Chinese fast food that are there. I think they are they are delicious. So that I can eat them. No problem. But it is not Chinese food. So if you if we go back and talk about those kinda seven generation or even third generation of Chinese Americans, if their family do not cook their local cuisines. In their family. And they grew up with those kind of so called American eating habits. I have to say their palate could be different because all they eat, not all of it. For most of them, their understanding of Chinese food are orange chicken or lemon chicken. I've never ever had those kind of American Chinese food called lemon chicken or lime chicken or lemon, lemon chicken in my life until I went to the States to study. And if you talk about, if you talk to most people or those American, the American people talk to most Chinese, they will say, oh, I love, I love a dish cut to a orange chicken, those kind of things. That's, to, like, I think it's delicious. It's a delicious dish from China, but we don't have such dish. Or we may have it now in some places. But traditionally, I've never ever heard of Chan in very traditional Chinese dishes from every single province. There's such thing called orange chicken. Yes. Thanks. Thanks. Same situation for me. I also personally never had fortune cookie four. In the US. And it's and I agree with your, observation in terms of the stereotype of all Chinese because personally, I don't eat anything spicy. Whether it is sichuan or pepper or chili, I just perfectly cry if I walk past a hot pot. Yeah. So thanks for that comment. So, just like to point out that, in to summarize a bit of what you just said, So, in a way, those, more, affluent, young drinkers who had experienced living in the west and moved back to China. They are kind of the trend setting, right, for the wine scene in China. And they're mostly based in the big cities, like Shanghai and and Beijing. And what is the percentage of wine drinkers at that, for these cities for the representing the rest of the country? The the the the the the problem is there's no there's no way you can get data to support this. But I have to say there's something interesting you just talk about, Alice, is that you point out most of them are in first tier cities. Right? Those kind of very developed cities in China, like Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, all those kind of cities. But I have to say you also started to find more and more of them in at least second tier cities, like my hometown is Nanjing, the other Jin as opposed to Beijing, right? Nanjing and, it's a very obvious example of there is a great drinking culture developing in Chengdu, not only drinking Chinese, but they also start to drink wine. A foreign product because that's lifestyle. I just I was just back from Chengdu. They just opened it at a natural wine bar, and it's so not not natural wine bar. Natural wine restaurant. Okay. Featuring great food and some great natural wines. And it's it's all about lifestyle, and people are living those lifestyle at the moment. Okay. And if what you said was true that people in China don't really pair. It was for Nina or those aromatic wines with their regular spicy food. In terms of introducing wines to those, population, let's say there are non drinkers and we try to convert them into drinkers, we would be in a a safer bet so that producers or importers won't go into a major market flock in the business plan because they were in a wrong thinking. Yeah. As I said, it's all about you understand your targeted group. Say, for example, you are target you are winery with high volume and your price is at a very good price inexpensive and people will just buy a lot of them. Right? If your winery is positioned in that way, I would say one thing I said to in a lot of seminars is that don't forget in China. There's a thing called OEM, which is huge now. It's sort of like a private labeling. You send the one bulk to China, and the company will do whatever label they would like in order to sell. And the biggest selling cases are, the Chinese New Year holidays or some other mid autumn festival holidays. And they would customize those Chinese companies OEM companies will customize your label into, let's say, next year is Tiger Year. So they will put a tiger on the label and they will help you sell tons of them because those are corporate buying and they have they just want the volume. They just want to buy cases of wines to, send them as gifts to corporate people. But if you are targeting the people that I just talk about, you have to remember you have to be small and you have your product had to be sort of premium but not have to be ultra premium, but you sort of have the certain quality level. Right? And then you would would understand what those people are thinking about. I have to say those people lots of them have lots of white knowledge now. So you can actually sell those kind of tower concept or regional concept or great varieties or even this type of food may pair well with certain food. Okay, to those people with knowledge. And when they those people who are seriously drinking wine and digging into wine, you can sell in those kind of ways by selling the style, by selling the quality. But you but If you have to do research first, those people are not easy to find unless you are have a great, partner in China or a company in China who already have those kind of clients, and understand those people, and they can help you sell. Okay? Of course, there are other type of consumers, but I cannot just, describe them one by one, but I believe the, the following seminars, will talk to some other speakers will talk about these. Yeah. It can be indeed challenging. I was just saying in terms of research, if we could all travel now, then we would come to China and stay there for a few months and try the food and do our own pairing, but we can't travel there. Now you've mentioned by Joe. How what do you think about forty five wines? Not that it is close to the, same alcohol level, but in terms of the impression of the sensor taste, that it is a little bit more alcoholic, but also have that savory tang salty tang that might link closer to the Chinese palette of what they affectionate with, with, Ijo. What do you think about that, for the final one? That's That's super interesting. Because, first of all, sorry. We do not just look at them as forty five whys. Okay. So, actually, it's not, the logic in terms of, okay, Beijo is usually forty to even fifty, fifty five, sixty percent of alcohol. And then we can sell some like higher alcohol wines, like forty five wines. No, it's not about that. Forty five wines struggle to sell all over the world. Right? But I have to say I know some very successful companies. Very few of them. I will say only two. Okay? One company sells Sherry extremely well. The other company sells Madira extremely well. And I'll tell you why it's not because they are hiring alcohol. The company who sells Sherry well is because certain type of Sherry like Aloroso Amontieto, they sort of taste like the Chinese hangzhou, the yellow wine. Because the Chinese yellow wine is Of course, based on grains, but they are also sort of oxidized and to have all these kind of microbial transformation. And they have similar taste. And when people are kind of actually in China nowadays, people are not drinking as much as yellow wine, Guangzhou, as compared to the past. In our history, actually our in the Chinese most historical most popular wines are rice wines or yellow wines, those kind of wines. But now people are not drinking lots of them. Except for people, especially in Shanghai, in Tianju area, the Shanghai surrounding provinces, they drink, quite a few to pair with they really pair with their local cuisines, like, the the the hairy crab, the very famous, crab in China. And they they they truly started to pick up this kind of sharing trend because they think, oh, this is sort of like, quan, quan, quan, yellow wire. And in some cases, I have to say, it's easier shrinking than Guangzhou, especially those kind of funeral sherries, right? You just show them and you just drink them, and that's it. And and then you look at Madira, that company. Madira, they are now marketing Madira, especially, premium madeira, like those kind of ten years of Freshcara or even vintage madeira. They start to import them and do what? It's another product that could possibly replace certain whiskey market share. So some young stuff, there's a trend in China drinking those sorts of premium whiskeys now. And then madeira can come in to say, okay, this is another type of product. It's wine. It, but it is sort of you can treat it like whiskey like and it's collectible, especially for those kind of vintage ones or long mature, long aging ones. Okay? So do you see that it's not about the purely about the taste of the alcohol. It's really about what special type of product can directly fit in an existing habit or lifestyle of Chinese people. Right. Because I have one final question. Not mentioning any question. In terms of we going back to talk about wine professionals, the palette. From my experience, there are two types of wine professionals, especially if we talk about some minis, ones that have gone through formal training for MW, WSE courses or the core of some mini courses. And then there are ones that really learn from the job. I learned on the job as they go. So in terms of, the impacts of the ones that have been going through former education, and now that WSE courses aren't currently actively running in China, how would you see the impact in terms of these run professionals that have gone through formal training and the other times that learn by experience and how it will affect, their influence in the market or at least for on trade. Okay. So when we talk about the wine business in China is really one each patient is tiny percentage of the market. Okay? It is booming, but it's tiny part. And, most people when they try to do wine qualifications, especially for trade professionals, it is no difference. This is, this is fitting to the topic today. Is that both for Chinese, for Chinese Americans, for Americans and for people around the world, it's always better if you work in an industry that you have a certification and you have certain qualification. That can help you learn and that can even help you possibly find jobs and possibly help you open doors and connect with more people. Like me connecting with Alice now, imagine we were already connected through online courses of WCT a few years ago. Right? So I think that's that part. But I have to say even if certain qualifications are not running in China at the moment, we see the people who truly want to learn about wine just for their lifestyle. And that is what I just talked about is that those people, especially those people who study abroad, leave abroad, those type of people always higher education level, they can come to learn wines for a more sophisticated lifestyle for developed personal interest, for meeting people in a class. Right? And I have to say yes, there are certain parts of the education market where we we cannot get in terms of, for those people really just wanna do qualifications. But for the people who are studying now, not purely for qualifications, they are I have to say they are more interesting people, and I tend to drink and eat with them after class. K. Thanks a lot, Gus. I think that reps are our, our seminar today. Do you have any final words? I just say, although it's, like you said, it's hard to travel due to COVID and everything, and we can still connect online, like, in this format. And also, I think, it really forces people to understand where the the place where you cannot actually touch, right? So do more communications and do more research and talk to people, email people phone people. And I think people are even more friendlier, even more friendly now, right, among each other, and we just need to talk and communicate and raise the glass. And although I I will work a bit later, so I cannot drink now, raise the glass, And if you understand people from different culture more, you can naturally see the business opportunities. Yes. I agree with you that this pandemic did open a law of public opportunities that we didn't think about before. So we can work out some other ways. Thanks a lot, Gus, for your first time today, and I hope to see you in person soon. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, Alice. Thank you, everyone. Have a good day. Cheers. Yes. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Italian wine podcast, brought to you by the Italy international wine and spirits exhibition, the biggest drinks trade fair in the world. Save the date, the next edition of Vineet League will be held the second through the fifth of April two thousand and twenty three. Remember to subscribe to Italian wine podcast and catch us on SoundCloud, Spotify, and wherever you get your pods. You can also find us at italian wine podcast dot com. Chinchin. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. 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