Ep. 975 New Frontiers In Wine Marketing Technologies | wine2wine Business Forum 2021

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For more information, please visit wine to wine dot net and tune in every Thursday at two pm Central European time for more episodes recorded during this latest edition of wine to wine business forum. My name is Carlo Rosie Sharvane. I'm a lawyer expert in the wine industry. And this morning, we will start, wine to wine with, this meeting on the new frontiers in wine marketing, anticipating the opportunities in essence technologies. But I'm so glad to have here Paul Caputo, Italian wine Ambassador, journalist and entrepreneur in wine, and who will share with us, a vision and a future vision on, on the evolution of, wine marketing. So, Paul, thank you very much for being here, and I leave the floor to you. Okay, Carla. Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for, making the trip into this, into this smaller room. I appreciate it is nine AM on a Monday morning, and, You know, there is a there is a big talk in the next room happening, you know, with a with a well established, well known global platform. So, I I appreciate your your interest in in what I've described as new frontiers in in why marketing. So so thank you. I suppose before we start just a couple of things, the first thing to say is you may find this talk a little bit frustrating in that many of these concepts while I think are extremely exciting, are also just a little bit still, out of grasp. But nevertheless, I think it's really important to to keep these concepts in mind, as you as you look at your your wine businesses over the next, over the next year to three, four years. I think you're gonna see a very, very rapid adoption of them, even if they're still very much in an experimental, phase. So I suppose just before we start, can I just get a little reading of the room? How how many people here work for a wine producer? Okay. And how many people are just sort of in in sort of distribution and sales? Okay. Okay. So we've got a a little bit of a mix. And how many people are marketeers specifically? Okay. So this, so this should be interesting. Hopefully, many of these concepts will be will be familiar to you. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna make this marketing one zero one. You'll be you'll be pleased to hear. So, okay. Let's start. So as I said, new frontiers and wide marketing, anticipating opportunities in nascent technologies. So hopefully you'll be familiar with some of the with some of the technology that that is discussed, but what what I hope to to bring and contribute to this discussion is is an idea of how these can be leveraged alongside, you know, some of your other activities. I suppose I should just mention something about myself as well. So I'm Paul Caputo, for those you that I know some of you, know me already. I'm a writer and a journalist. I previously worked, in import and retail, and I'm now working on a large, wine database platform, a database of wineries, regions, appalachians, grapes. And that that platform is called Vinerandum, and it has a focus on on education, really. But, it's viner random dot com if you're if you're interested in having a look. Okay. So what I'm trying to do, I'm gonna give you a few objectives of what I think you can you can take away from this. I want to give you some context in the form of some presumptions about how I see technology and society and social media and all that kind of thing evolving in the coming years. And then I'll focus on these four little sections, really, voice, audio and voice marketing, augmented and virtual reality AI. It should be an interesting one. And and then I'll touch briefly at the end on blockchain and NFTs. What would I like to do? I would like to offer a little snapshot of of the technology that's coming. I'm gonna give you some speculation, really, on how on how I see it might be able to be used within the wine industry. I would like to provide some practical advice for the present. Obviously, it would be great if you can leave this room with some takeaways that you that you can at least start to think about and implement and of course beyond that, I'm talking about creative thinking. I'd, you know, if anybody would like to discuss any of this stuff later with me as well, please please feel free. Right. So this is this is the interesting bit. So some presumptions around why I feel that these points are gonna be important. Our our digital identities are going to expand massively. They already are, you know, whether you whether you view that as our kind of, curated life experiences on on Instagram or whether you see that as just, you know, your general life administration in in the cloud, you know, It it it's gonna be it's gonna be really important. I mean, I've just checked in here with my with my COVID green pass, which, you know, obviously, carries my health information. Like, the idea that that would would happen a couple of years ago would have been crazy that I'd have to demonstrate my my fitness to enter a room. But it's it's happening, and there's no reason to suggest it's it's gonna go back. And I think in fact what we're gonna see, is is the further growth of our our online identity and identities, by implication, we can presumably have several identities and and we can you know, we can assume a slightly different role and character in a different, in a different online environment. So so building on from that, it's logical to assume that virtual spaces are gonna grow. You know, places online, where we can express ourselves are going to, are going to grow to match that demand. It's not just about, you know, demonstrating you know, facts and figures about your life is not just about demonstrating health statuses and tax records. It's also about expressing yourself. And I think, you'll see later in the presentation that's quite an important component of why I think some of these technologies are gonna are gonna be very useful. Technology will ultimately be affordable. You know, some of these concepts you're gonna hear in this presentation. You're gonna go, yeah, but, Paul, how much is that gonna cost? Are we really gonna do that? That's not realistic. But actually, as technology begins to to, you know, disperse through the population and things get cheaper and easier, you know, these concepts, you know, just like filming and streaming video, you know, a few years ago was super expensive. Not anymore, Matthew Horky, as I can see you're doing it now. So alongside that audience fragmentation, is also going to be a big challenge for us. You know, it's already a challenge now. But I think one thing is for certain and that is that we are never going to go back to these, you know, big, big media brands that control, the audience, and the numbers Okay. You might suggest that Facebook's doing that. Instagram's doing that now, but actually there is still there is still a huge landscape of of media players that are all competing round the clock for our attention. And I think that is gonna continue to be the case more so than ever. And therefore engaging, your followers, your subscribers, your customers, engaging them with, you know, with with new content, with new ideas, that is gonna be the the the fundamental building block of of marketing. Okay, it is already, but more so than ever before. And finally, we probably all know selling wine is not easy. You know, the the industry is gonna is gonna experience increased competition from from multiple angles, not just, you know, not just the number of wines available, but also actually competition from from the cannabis industry, from healthy living sectors, it's gonna be difficult. And I think, wine companies, wine brands are gonna have to work extra hard to to make the leap towards selling into the next generations. Okay. So that's just a little bit of context. That's really my little world view in in a in a few in a few lines just to to run up at this. Because it'll quote William Gibson. The Future's already here. It's just not evenly distributed. And I think you'll find that if you if you do any research into these technologies or if you already know about these technologies, you'll know that They are actually in use. People are using them. People are people are managing to to build cool projects with with this technology. So, yeah, it's just a matter of time before things, before it disperses Okay. Let's start with with voice marketing. Another little room read, how many people currently use, a voice assistant. Two, three. Okay. How many people podcast? Okay? How many people listen to podcasts? Okay. A much bigger thing. Okay. And how many people, engage with, sort of in person audio spaces, like clubhouse or or tons of spaces? Okay. Brilliant. So it it's not a it's not a new concept, but, one thing is is certain in that is the growth in all of these platforms. Audio is a fantastic a fantastic vehicle to reach new people, especially in in an age of, of busyness. You know, we're all super busy. We all do a hundred things at once. We're all distracted, and quite a quite a lot of us, live with our headphones in, you know, audio is something that we can do alongside all the other busy things. Beyond that, it's it's intimate. It's an intimate experience, and it provides, a great opportunity for you to for you to reach your your customers and your and your prospects. You can, you know, you can engage people on a on a really emotional level using audio. So Siri believe or not is now ten years old. It's it's its usage is growing massively. I read a statistic, the other day that said something like forty percent of Americans now use a voice assistant every at least once a month. So that's huge. The the use of audio assistance by the younger generation is even even bigger. So, I mean, I'm I'm from the UK and the UK. We're not we're not massive yet on using voice messages on on WhatsApp, but I know in Italy, it's it's absolutely standard practice. You know, everybody, you know, nobody can be bothered to type. Everybody is is using is using voice to communicate. Now those people who represent wineries here, how many of you have, have repurposed your content, in order to take advantage of voice, has anyone done it? Okay. So, as always, I think this is where the the wine industry lags slightly behind. We're we're very conservative by nature. But I I I would really I would really recommend that everybody who is who is involved in in wine marketing, tries to create an audio version of their content, whether it's short form, whether it's long term essays, get that content recorded and and get it up online and get it distributed to the, you know, to your customer base. Podcasts, audio networks. These are all hugely important things to be part of. Not only from a from a brand, you know, in a a brand marketing perspective, but also from an individual networking perspective. There's a fantastic talk. I think it's later in the day. With Matthew and Renee who, you, you know, I'd recommend you go and you you go and see that. They're gonna talk more about their experiences using clubhouse, in order to, you know, in order to fuel their their journey and fuel their their their networking and business development in the space. So it's a voice marketing is a is a fantastic tool. What can you do today, embrace audio audience fragmentation, you know, there's no point fighting it. It's it's it's really important to, get involved in these kind of guerrilla marketing projects. I participate in audio networks. You're gonna know this, but it establishes credibility and trust. And it's it's simple, but it's it's super effective. I think the thing that's currently missing from this, from this, from this approach is is the capturing the leads, the establishing of marketing funnels to sit alongside, you know, this. At the moment, it's still very much a sort of go in to these to these, to these audio spaces and, you know, invest time. There's some casual networking, but what we're yet to see is any real, any real approach to link that that time spent into other areas of the sales and marketing funnel. So, that would be something I would encourage people to to think about. Beyond beyond this, what's coming down the line? Well, voice integration with artificial intelligence is is the the next step really. So at the moment, you know, voice voice searches are quite simple. You could go. Hello, Siri. What are the top Bernelo de Montal Chino wines, and it will give you it will give you a list, but it will be no different than if you if you search, you know, the same thing using text. But what is coming down the line is the personalization and the localization of this. So, you know, it it's all very well me knowing the next the top ten Bernelo, but actually what I also wanna know is where I can buy them in a in a in a context that is relevant to me. And that's coming. So it's really important, I think if you're a winery, if you're, you know, particularly if you're a winery, that you engage with some of the the key websites, you you know, where your wines are listed and referenced, it's really important to to make sure that, you know, that content is up to date is is accurate and and, you know, connects actually to the to the wholesale and the reset retail arms. Okay. Beyond that, which which I think is a a little bit further away, but also quite interesting is the notion of translation. So if you, you know, if if I am able to rattle off a mess a voice message in English that can be translated quickly into Italian, it, you know, inevitably, I'm gonna be able to reach new markets. Okay. Let's do virtual and augmented reality. How many people have had, a virtual reality experience? Of curiosity, would you say it was a a good one, a positive one? Average? Chris, you had a good one. Okay? Alright. So, yes, you're right. It's, they can be a little bit disjointed at the moment. But, what's what's quite interesting is, is our reaction to the pandemic. Obviously, as we all know, Zoom took over. We were all doing videos and podcasting stuff on Zoom, but of course we we probably quickly got bored. We all saw the value of it, but it was we all sort of also got a bit saturated. And the reason was I think for many people, the experience is were the same. They were monotonous. They were boring. You know, they didn't reach us really on any kind of emotional level. Virtual, virtual reality offers brands the opportunity to to create experiences, to create immersive experiences for for our customers. So Brancotte State in in Marlboro, New Zealand, they they recently did one. You know, they mapped their entire vineyard. They they mapped their their cellar facilities. They were able to invite their their their customers and their, you know, both consumers and and trade customers to to tour their facilities, to experience the, you know, their brand, you know, as always in the wine trade, they chose to, you know, show vineyards and and show sellers and tanks and that kind of thing, but it but it doesn't have to be that way. There are endless creative opportunities, and endless opportunities to collaborate And I think, many of you will have seen the augmented reality campaign of nineteen crimes, and I think that's referenced. I think there is another seminar on that somewhere today. But I but being able to, engage with with consumers via their phone, you know, which I think half the room are holding right now, you know, phones are phones are the key tool of our of our time. So being able to get into the into people's phones is is really important. And augmented reality does that. So, okay, for me, the nineteen crimes were, campaign wasn't really aimed at me. It didn't necessarily tick the boxes that I personally would like to obtain from, you know, from my wine journey, you know, but for many people, it did, and it's been a hugely successful commercial project. So so using augmented reality and virtual reality to story tell and to scene set and to provide immersive experiences is obviously, you know, a really it's a really important idea to consider. It's potentially a little bit expensive still, and I think, you have to work particularly hard to to story tell in the right manner, you know, to consider the kind of content that is gonna be relevant for, you know, for the for, you know, the the particular setting in which perhaps the the wine may be consumed or the the the the term reality experience may be had, but it it it's definitely worth considering worth pursuing I think what is also very exciting is the the growth in virtual trade fairs. So, okay, nothing can replace face to face. You know, we're all here. We all made the trip to verona because we enjoy engaging and interacting with people that that's true and and virtual affairs won't replace that. However, I do think there's a there is a huge opportunity for for some of the more, transactional, and some of the more basic b to b correspondence and and connectivity that happens, that can be done remotely. Thank you for listening to Italian wine podcast. We know there are many of you listening out there, so we just want to interrupt for a small ask. Italian wine podcast is in the running for an award, the best podcast listening platform through the podcast awards, the people's choice. Listener nominations is from July first to the thirty first, and we would really appreciate your vote. We are hoping our listeners will come through for us. So if you have a second and could do this small thing for us, just head to Italian Wine Podcast dot com from July first to the thirty first, and click the link. We thank you and back to the show. On top of that, the using using virtual technology, you know, so for example, there's a there's a company called V Fares that that build out the entire trade fair environment, you know, you can walk you can walk down the aisles. You can see the different different villians, you can go in meeting rooms, or you can do all the things you that you would expect to do at a at a trade fair. What the difference is though that you get to collect information in a different way, you get to be a lot more efficient about your time. You get to do more meetings. You get to meet more people. As an exhibitor in in such a fair, you get to demonstrate your brand. You know, I would I would argue in a much more effective way. I've been going to trade fairs as a as a fire and as a writer for for a decade now. And every time I walk away feeling there must be a better way of doing this. You know, you know, you're talking to people. You're talking to the guy, but he's looking over your shoulder. There's somebody else trying to get their glass filled it's not a good way to engage with the brand. And I think virtual trade fairs offer a fantastic opportunity to to do that. And in addition for for marketeers, for consortiums, you know, for for syndicate to represent multiple producers, I I feel they offer a fantastic platform to do much more bespoke and focused targeted events. You, I think a couple of other examples there. You may have seen the Barolo MGA project where which maps out all of the different crew vineyards. I think that is the beginnings of a nice immersive experience. And I think from an education platform, from an education perspective, again, I think that's a really great vehicle. I just finally touch on bid stack. Does anyone know what bid stack do? So bid stack is a company that that deploys in game advertising. So as as businesses, gamify their their customer journey, and as as companies release games, you know, that technology allows allows adverts to be deployed in real time, which is great. So for example, if anybody, you know, plays plays football games, for example, they have side boards all around the pitch or players walk out to, you know, to to various advertising campaigns, I can actually deploy the adverts to a set geographical area to a set age group. And I think that that's a really exciting little development. It's it's it's definitely have a look at what bids tag do, and I think it will give you some great ideas about how you can maybe work with, other technology partners, perhaps in more relevant fields to your brand. Okay. Again, a few a few little ideas just on on AR, it's an opportunity to reconsider your touch points. I think we all know now we need a lot more touch points with our customers than than we ever used to, and and this is a a vehicle to to offer some more collaboration is gonna be absolutely key. And this kind of this kind of technology allows us to collaborate in creative ways, and perhaps with with people with influencers, with other brands in a way that perhaps we may not have considered, before, yeah, focus on on entertainment and education. I think that's that's that would be my my priority. Perhaps a little bit more speculatively coming down the line, but we're certainly not ready for that yet. Is is, the wearable technology, which I think, is obviously key to the the wide scale adoption of some of these ideas companies have experimented with the with the headsets in order to, you know, deliver some of these experiences that, you know, we probably still feel a bit silly walking around in in massive goggles, but I think as that technology becomes a little bit more, you know, a little bit more trendy, a little bit more suited to our busy day to day lives, we're gonna find that you know, these experiences suddenly start to come along a lot more often. Smart tattoos. Anybody fancy getting a smart tattoo? No. So, I think we'll see we'll see this this stuff happening. You know, QR codes on our on our arms in order to, you know, to leverage opportunities that that passes by. I think these are gonna be a big thing. And it, ultimately, it's all about getting information quicker. More relevant information and and more personalized information holograms as well are coming, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna dwell on that AI. Okay. So Amazon have just released a little a little robot. I think it's only available in America at the moment. They're gonna keep the the distribution a little bit, a little bit, smaller for the moment while they, while they test and iterate. This is so a astrid wheels around your house. You can pro you can program it not to go in your bedroom at certain times of the night. But it but it it kind of it lives with you. It uses, facial recognition so you can program key people in your life so that it can interact. But interestingly, it it learns stuff. So you can keep applying, you know, you can keep adding new skills to to this little robot. It has little hands, I think. So you can, I think you can it carries drinks from from the kitchen through to the through to another room? Now you may think what what the hell are you talking about? How's this affect the wine business? This is gonna be quite interesting when we start to consider new opportunities for packaging. So canned wine is a is a big growth area, and I think canned wine is more suited to, to being dispensed in a different in a different kind of social way, different kind of social environment. The customer, you know, the target customer is potentially different. And I can see a scenario where you know, particularly in bigger cities where where there are kiosks that dispense wine cans, but actually AI allows you to get the information that you wish about that product or, you know, or it's it can be personalized based on your Amazon account. So so this is interesting. I think Vivino, is is another example of of AI and machine learning. Obviously, I'm not gonna dwell too much on this either because many of you chose you've chosen not to, see the Vina speech as clashes with with this one. So I'm I'm gonna leave that out, but obviously the the point about this is is big data you know, the more interactions we do with anything online, the more it stores, a digital data footprint about ourselves, and the more, the AI can learn from our activity. And I think this is really important when you're considering setting up your your technology infrastructure, you know, as a wine company. I'm gonna I'm gonna assume, but forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm gonna assume that your wineries don't particularly measure the behavior of your customers on on your website, and you you don't particularly, link, you know, link their actions in or in the winery to any kind of database. It's kind of just vaguely stored, it, you know, in your head. And of course, you know, everybody else does that, and that's, you know, a practical way of doing things, but I think ultimately as the tools develop around us, you know, the people who learn from from the data quickest will be those that you know, the build bigger and better business is quicker. There's also a lot of automation that can be that can be done with AI in the vineyard and in the in the supply chain, things that can increase efficiency and and, you know, make logistics easier, make inventory control easier, but I think these are perhaps more sort of just basic business practices rather than marketing opportunities, which is very different from a a project called pastry. Does anyone know pastry? So Tastory uses, AI to sorry. Tastory uses chemical analysis of wines partnered with, consumer palette surveys to teach AI how to taste Again, it sounds far fetched, but but this is happening, right now. And these this company is is using the results of this of this data in order to better predict the the sales performance in the market of of various types of wine. Again, as a as a as a wine lover and a wine enthusiast, I feel that this kind of squashes things down into the middle and we get increasingly homogenous products. However, you know, there are lots of companies out there that are that are making homogenous products designed to just shift units. So so Tastreza is a good example of how AI is is beginning to impact in the trade. You know, it's still an outlier. It's still it's still, you know, a little bit obscure, but I but I think it's, a very exciting project to follow and keep an eye on. Okay. So what what can we do at the moment? The first thing to do is engage with the key players, you know, look at the big companies that are that have a lot of data. If you're a winery or a wine business, that selling wine, make sure that that information is accurate is up to date, you know, the don't rely on too much user generated data and content. You know, as a as a winery, I think it's it's paramount to to own the story. You know, it should be the central pillar and the foundation of this kind of information. Focus on your own website first. That is ultimately where, you know, these projects are going to to extract information from. The amount, honestly, the amount of winery websites that I see that do not reflect what they're doing is is is is is baffling, but nevertheless, like, I think the website is is is is fundamental to engaging properly with with AI. Beyond that, consider your data strategy, you know, how can you learn from the behavior of customers in the seller at trade fairs, at tastings, you know, try and integrate these things because ultimately the more data you have the more you can create projects that will make life, make life simpler and make, new storytelling opportunities more effective. Okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap with, and and hopefully, do we have time for tiny bit of Q and A. Does anybody know what NFTs are? Okay. Great. So so I just realized that says internet two point o. It should be three point o. Don't worry. I'm not too behind. So, okay, blockchain at the moment has been used to to create supply chain, transparency. Now for for premium wineries, I think this is, this is quite exciting. Know, to be able to document and demonstrate authenticity is really important. We've seen over the years some of the the scandals with, you know, with fraudulent bottles and fraudulent labels. So blockchain provides some interesting solutions to that kind of thing. But I think what's really what's really exciting is NFTs which stand for non fungible tokens. So to kind of bring us back to this concept that our digital identities are going to expand, in the future, you know, tokens and digital tokens, provide some quite cool opportunities in our lives. So I'll give you a little story. Louis Vu, I think they spent a few a few hundred thousand dollars purchasing, digital space in a in an online virtual world called Decentraland. So if you Google image Decentraland, you'll see what looks something like the sims. I don't know if you, you know, that old game, the sims, They paid several hundred thousand pounds, with a view to building a Louis Vuitton store, to offer virtual fashion, which is a unique tokenized fashion pieces, for the people who engage in that online world for their, for their avatars. So it it's an exciting space. A couple of the uses that immediately come to mind for me are the ability. It is the ability to engage with a customer base by issuing these unique tokens on on blockchain. So for example, if if we think about the younger generations now who don't collect wine, and and you ask them why, and they say, well, I move about too much. I'm in New York, and then I'm, you know, and then I've got a job in Singapore, and I can't possibly carry all these bottles, but they still, enjoy the the experience of collecting these I I I think these tokens provide an interesting opportunity for wineries particularly to to reward loyalty and and personalize the sale experience. At the moment, we see, you know, we see some top end lines that are numb have numbered bottles. So this kind of builds on that step. So you can have your personalized wine and you can keep it in your digital wallet with your COVID health pass, you know, in your your digital deeds to your property. And I think I think this could be a really, really interesting opportunity for people. I think we're at almost time, aren't we? So I will just get off the stage. Perfectly on time. Thank you so much both for all these, inspirational elements that you brought to us. I I took a lot of notes and, I have a lot of questions too. But, before leaving to the the floor, to the to the questions, of the crowd here. I will I was thinking, do you think that there is the need of a new digital expert manager? I mean, all that has all these skills to to to move in the digital, sphere. And and do you think this is a person or is a team of of people? Because, I I was wondering who can have all these skills and and and promote correctly, these type of things. Yeah. I think that's a great question. I think, you know, the reason that people are not using this technology really apart from its sort of lack of availability is also the skill set required. You know, these are these are very new experimental technologies. And, you know, it they're not easy. You know, they some of them require coding expertise and experience. Yeah. And so to answer your question, I think I think people need a team, but I think it know, if if we have this conversation in five years time, I think the digital the digital team will be will be commonplace. I don't know if there are questions on the public. Have you seen that actually? Any other producers? Really hardcore working with NFTs. I know there's an opportunity there. But have you seen anybody actually doing it yet? No. I haven't what I what I would say is that if you if you look at the absolute explosion in the digital art market. So I think even just a couple of weeks ago, a set of NFTs sold for sixty nine million dollars at Christis, which is obviously insane. The the historical links between the the the premium aspects of of the wine trade and and the art market, I think, are are well documented. There are endless examples of collaborations between between wineries and artists and I think it's it's only a matter of time before before, you know, some of the, you know, the more forward thinking brands collaborate with artists to create to create unique digital files that can be that can be given to top customers. It's obviously expensive to create those products, but it's for a for a for a top winery brand. It's not expensive. It's actually quite sensible, I would say. Do you have another question here? A little bit about gamification. What are some examples of ways the wineries could utilize that in their marketing strategies? Yeah. So do you remember a project called I think it's smooth. Do you remember how, you know, you used to be able to, you know, get a a digital gold badge if you tasted fifty cabernet sauvignons or something from from Napa? I I I think the wineries can, and and especially in collaboration with the local consortia or syndicates. I think I think wineries can definitely gamify the education around their, you know, around their, their region and around their wines. We've started to see I mean, you could you could argue Vin Italy are doing it with the the Via ambassadors, you know, the the the market to the market for demonstrating knowledge and statuses out there. At the moment, it's all done through tests and exams. But actually, I I I do see I do see an angle for, you know, for gamifying that journey instead, you know, so you achieve, you know, off the top of my head. I can't quite think of the the context, but I I I think, you know, to be you you can you can definitely incentivize interaction through through challenges, through quizzes, through through visits to the seller, through the purchase of, you know, purchase of a certain amount of wine, you know, and I think I think that would be the the way I see it, really. You have some more questions here? I really like everything that you brought up, but I I I think a lot of wineries might be wondering what is the bare minimum cheapest thing that they could do within this to start them on this journey because we've laid out a really beautiful world, but, like, where can they start at the cheapest possible way? Yeah. I think the cheapest possible way is to engage with audio, you know, engage with journalists to create stories that can be transformed into audio content and, you know, make sure that the website is audio friendly. You know, they're there are endless stories from wineries about how, you know, none or none or discovered some old plant in the in the backyard. And now it's, you know, this turns out to be some ancient variety. And that that, you know, get them get them recorded as audio, you know, and and and distribute. That's the quick. I would say that is the the sensible way because ultimately, it will be these files that that you know, the educates AI, the the educates consumers, you know, people don't really read anymore, sadly. You know, we people just don't have time. And I think combined with the, you know, combined with our sort of addiction to our our phones, our attention spans are a lot less. Like, we just have to accept that reading big long form essays is is not really relevant for most people. So audio audio is the way forward. And you know what? You can do that to a suitable level on your phone. Okay. It wasn't last question. So maybe you have answered this question yet, but, what's the most useful and suitable technology you have among the one you have mentioned, for the wine word in your opinion. I I think that, you know, like, like, every marketing concept and, like, every technology you can think of, you know, There is no one recommended thing. I think that this is a toolkit, you know, these this is, you know, if you can if you can find a way to integrate these technologies, into everything else that you do, I think that's where you'll you'll find most success. You know, there's no point going off and spending forty thousand euros on a virtual reality experience if actually, you know, you know, you you you don't answer the phone when some Winatorious rings. You know, that I think it's it's it's part of the whole, that the whole ecosystem of the way, in which you're, you know, your brand your brand faces the world. But audio, I think if if people are looking to do something right now, focus on audio, So thank you very much. I think we are at the end. Thank you, really, for your interesting question. Thank you, Paul, for this really amazing presentation. And, let's, keep enjoying this, day at Went to wine. Thank you very much. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of Italian wine podcast. 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