Ep. 2437 Stevie Kim | Book Club with Richard Hough

Very special guest who needs no introduction. My boss, the creator, and driving force behind the Italian wine podcast, Stevie Kim. Hello, Richard. Good morning. I think actually this is the first time I'm being interviewed on the podcast. No pressure then. Yeah. No pressure. No pressure at all. As well as being the brains behind the time when podcast you are, of course, publisher and author in your own right. Can you tell us a bit about your background in publishing Mac? Goes beyond the world of wine, Stevy, I think. Is that right? Yeah. I think we don't really have time for this. How long does your show last? It's Wow. Half an hour. Alright. You should give me the skinny version. Hello, and welcome to book club with the Italian wine podcast. I'm your host, Richard Hoff, and I'm delighted that you're joining us as we get between the vines with some of the best wine writing out there. So sit back pour yourself a glass and enjoy the show with the Italian white podcast. This month, we have a very special guest who needs no introduction. My boss, the creator, and driving force behind the Italian wine podcast. Stevie Kim. Hi, Stevie. Welcome to the show. Hello, Richard. Good morning. I think actually this is the first time I'm being interviewed. Oh, on the podcast. No pressure then. Yeah. No pressure. No pressure at all. Okay. Well, no, thanks very much for for agreeing to to come on the show as well. Yeah. You ran out of guests. I ran out of guests. You know, desperate times. Calls were desperate measures. Yes. Any port in a storm. As well as being the brains behind the time when podcast you are, of course, a publisher and author in your own right. Can you tell us first a bit about your your background in publishing beyond the world of wine, Stevy, I think. Is that right? Yeah. I think we don't really have time for this. How long does your show last? It's Wow. Half an hour. Alright. You can get me the skinny version. The skinny version is I have one husband Only one. Yeah. One husband is Italian. He is a doctor. Medical doctor. I know in Italian, everyone is a doctor. You and I are both doctor. Oh, doctor. Yeah. But he's actually a medical doctor. He started the first inpatient treatment for eating disorders and obesity in Italy. So I started actually a publishing house to support him. To start doing self help books. I carried some, Anglo Saxxian authors who are really well established from, you know, Cambridge, Oxford, etcetera. And then my one provincial veronese, a husband medical doctor. And, we started doing books together. So that's how it started in the medical field, if you will, self help books. And then I translated that into wine when I started with wine. That's the super skinny version of it. Okay. Perfect. And is that an activity that is ongoing, man, as well? Are you still involved? Yes, still ongoing. Although, you know, Italian don't read very much. I mean, luckily, those who few that those who read, they read a lot. Okay. Right? But otherwise, Italians are known to be the last place among western, I think, civilization in terms of readership. So it's pretty sad. So it's still going on at a very, skinny level, very focused. But and of course, I mean, with your wine books, your audience isn't particularly an Italian audience, is it? What what is your mission? What is your, what are your objectives as a wine publisher? So the wine publishing, it is a it's hard. It's very, very difficult. There, of course, is the the physical aspect of it, which is the wine tasting, right? And sometimes we have to try to translate that into words, which isn't always easy. That's why I think, you know, wine became so, such a snobbery, I guess, snobbery in a sense of feeling and in sense of expertise because you have to describe those wine tasting notes into something poetic, if you will. Instead of just saying it's good, you have to have all of the other semantics and adjectives around it. One publishing for us has been very, very specific in sense that it started with Financial International Academy. We needed a textbook because we did not have a textbook. So what we did was basically create a textbook for the students. That's how it started. And then it accelerated exponentially when during COVID because I said, well, that that book, the textbook. It's called Italian wine unplugged, two point zero. It is a very dense and very technical, very geeky, super geeky textbook. We needed to translate that into something really smaller, a pocket size, a version, and that's when it we started doing the mama jumbo shrimp books. You know, the the pocket size, digested mini versions of the big concepts into something much more digestible. And this is a bit like asking which is your favorite child, but which is your, which which book are you most proud of? Which wing book are you is would you say is the the flagship book? You mentioned unplugged? Yeah. Well, the flagship book obviously is the unplugged book. Right? Because that's how we, corrile the entire Italian wine community, especially the wine professional. And also because it's not written by one person, it's written by the community. We have a lot of the Italian wine ambassadors at large, and they have curated all the different entries because we're talking about four hundred and forty four grapes or whatever how many they are in the book. So, and it is and I suppose that is emblematic, of what the community is all about because there is significant, contributors from the Italian wine community. And I I it's an aggregator of all things that we do. So I think that is definitely our, our flagship book. However, you know, we do so many others. Right? And we've done couple with you and professor, because he doesn't speak a word of English. Although now with AI, he can still do that. You know, it's it's a bit atrocious, but he can do that. So we've translated his Italian into English. May I say, however, it's actually two step process because you are one of the Shenza whisperers. So we have to translates into Italian, step one, and then step two, Italian into English. And we are we have been so privileged to work with him together. He is absolutely, for me, his love and passion for Italian Viticulture goes very goes beyond anything we have ever expected. And he's so generous, right, with his time and his knowledge. It is something that we can cherish forever, and we've turned them into words. Not always accessible, but we've tried. That that mean there are challenges. I I carry the scars on my my own bag, you know, doing the, the work on on on translating and interpreting Shensus book, but that that really is one of the the key outputs, I suppose, giving him a a platform in that English speaking audience. His most recent book, the art of storytelling gives his perspective on on wine storytelling, but I wanted to ask you as an award winning wine communicator, what is your advice to wine writers, wine communicators, and even producers about how to tell their story of wine, whether that's in a book or a video or a podcast or Well, I think, you know, the answer is always it depends. Yeah. Right? It depends because it depends who's writing it, and most importantly, who your audience is. Who are you writing for? Who are you speaking to? Right? So you have to keep that in mind because you can talk about the same thing, the same subject, you know, wine tasting, for example. But you have to understand who the audience is because if they're super geeky, you can get super technical, right? But if it's someone's just, you know, may be potentially interested and appreciates wine, then you have to talk in a complete different language. So I think it is very important, and you can't talk to everybody. That's, I think, an ambitious plan that everyone has. And we need to focus on who our audience is. So, for example, very, easily. Italian wine unplugged two point zero. That is a very geeky book. So it is obviously a textbook. It is dedicated to the wine professionals. Of course, if it's a wine, you know, lover and they want to you know, delve deep deep dive into the Italian wine grapes said then, well, okay. Go for it. In fact, we have translated that big book into a skinny version Italian grape geek journal. Right? So it's a synthesis super skinny version of what that is. And I think that's for everybody. So you have to kind of modulate the tone and also the language, because every time you speak to a different audience, you are actually speaking in a different language. And I think it's like talking to when you take the w set course, right? When I start the course, I tell the students, it's actually not this is not a wine course. It is actually a different language course, right? Because W Set has its own language and you have to learn that. So I think it's very important to keep in mind as a writer, as a producer of, wine information or entertainment because if you're there to entertain, then you need to think about how does this make my audience laugh? How does it make it entertain? So there are all different things. And you can tell that a a little bit by if you look at through all of our feeds, you know, social media feeds, right? I have my personal account and there I put like all the things that make me laugh because mostly the one audience I'm trying to entertain is myself and to keep my sanity of what we're doing. Right? So there you'll find like stupid shit, right, even like memes and, a lot of back stage b rolls, etcetera. Whereas we have the, you know, the the accounts for dedicated to this specific, product, right, whether it's a podcast, whether it's a bug, whether it's the agency, whether it's Vinitally, then it they all have to have a different voice. Right? Now with the age of this collapse, you know, I tried to collab with a lot of the other channels, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Right? So it really depends who your audience is. And if you want to contaminate the other audience, then go for it. Right? But keep in mind primarily who are you pre creating this content for. And that must also, I suppose influence where you go because for me, it just sound all incredibly complicated. There's so many different social media outlets. There's so much technology. There's so many different ways to interact with your audience. Where would you say for a for a producer of a writer? Is there somewhere that's most important to be right now? And what about with the emerging artificial intelligence technology? Is that something that we should be embracing? I think, you know, it's a double edged sword, right? I was reading, I think yesterday, over the weekend, that Google had published, like, the top forty jobs that AI's, you know, most likely to eliminate. Right? And Podcastos? Yeah. No. He did. It says Richard Haw. Yeah. No. Writers translating. These skills have will come under attack. Right? But if you, you know, we all use chat g p t. Right? But you we have to use it as a tool. It cannot be the you know, all done game. Right? So I think it's very important to keep that in mind, but certainly, certain research, brainstorming, this kind of stuff, I think, AUI will certainly be on the one hand incredibly useful and facilitates its time saving, etcetera. But then you get the danger of, you know, relying on it so much that you're not being creative yourself, and I'm afraid it's not exercising your brain enough. Right? So I think you have to try to like anything you have, right? We before it came to smartphones, right? What did we do? Right? I mean, I see some of the kids, even my own kids without, you know, Google Maps, they cannot navigate. They if you give them a, you know, a paper map, right? Like the old days. Yeah. Like they they can't figure it out. Right? So, you know, you see often, like, if you go to tourist areas, even in in the city of Verona or Venice or any, like, very touristy place in Italy, and you see all these people with Google Maps, and they're kinda going around circle. You can see them there in their face. They're like, which direction do I go? Right? And good to the phone as well. They're not even looking up and up the door. Yeah. They're completely reliable, and I think that is the danger, but certainly use everything as a tool, you know, what you have at your disposition, but don't rely on it one hundred percent because AI will make mistakes and it often does. And you need to also evaluate the content you're producing, contextualize it, and also with the assistance of AI, but also with your own character and judgment. Yeah. It's it's probably a topic we could talk about all day. Yeah. I'm conscious of time. So let's move on and I I want to understand what what you've been up to recently temperatures here in verona. And in Italy are soaring though though not today. It's a bit like a Scottish, summer in variety. I love it. I love it. I should move to Scotland. Yeah. But so most of our surgeries try to stay cool and relax, but but you've been busy. You've been on the road. So tell us about some of your recent adventures, where have you been? What are the big issues you encountered? And what trends are you seeing both domestically here in Italy and internationally. Okay. So you think I'm no Sardamless, right, basically. I'll just talk about one the the most recent trip last week, right, which was to Calabria. Calabrio was incredibly interesting because number one, it was the first time I've been to Calabrio. Yes, Maricopa. Like, I've been to nineteen other regions, but I had never been to Calabrio. So it was our it was my personal first time. It was yes. It was hot in terms of temperature, but it was we Italian Line podcast was actually a media partner for Vinitally in the city. Now for those of you who are less familiar, Vinitally in the city is a an off-site event, an offshoot of Vinitally, during Vinitally in the city of, Verona. Actually, I coined the name Vinitally and the city after six in the city to, move the the kind of the hooligans and the kids who just come for drinking, who wants to have wine to the city so that they can enjoy the city and have a have, you know, enjoy the wines in the city instead of, you know, in the trade hall. Because I I really thought it would have been important to, try to screen all of these, you know, non professionals to elsewhere. And I think in Verona, it's it worked, and they've This is the second edition. Actually, they brought it down to Calabria, and it was super interesting because it was clearly a B2C event. It was a consumer event. Right? It's it was in the middle of Noah. Now middle of nowhere. I mean, I mean, it was up literally on the site of the, archaeological, site of Seabuddy, which is and the nearest airport is about ninety minutes. So it's it's quite a waste. It's middle of Noah, but there are more than twenty thousand attendees. Incredible. Right. So it was actually beautifully organized. And I think, you know, if we want to talk about trends, I think we cannot be too snooty about just trying to deal with talk with trade people because in the end, I think it is very important to also be in contact with the end consumer. Right? So I think this is something that we have to be, a little bit more, aware of in terms of the wine business. What I've told actually in Calabria, because I did a little talk down there as well. And I think Calopidians, you know, mostly, I would even say, like, in the, in the recent past, it was up to ninety percent red wines, right? Very structured red wines. So I, they need to start thinking about you know, white wines because I do believe Italian wine, the white wine will be the future for Italian wine in general. I know that's a gross generalization because exactly of what you said due to climate change. What they're doing now interesting is that they're producing more rose. So it's not red, it's not white, but with red grapes, of course, you know, because rose, the color comes from the skin, and they are creating more rose, especially for summer, for for the for the two embrace to broach the younger generation. So I think this is these are some of the things that, you know, some of the new trends. And there I did see surprisingly, also a lot of the younger generation. And that for me was very, very, positive. The other aspect of course is the food. Because I know everyone. Anyone in the wine business, they think wine is the absolute protagonist, but I really think it's the food. It's the food that sets the tone. And then the wine. I know that we want we in our minds, all of us in the wine world, we would love to think that wine is the sex appeal, right? But it is really the food and I saw that, broaching wine with the food. When there's food, it is much easier to introduce the wine element. Right? So I I thought these are all things that, some of the things that were interesting about Calabrio. And it doesn't have to be like a three course heavy Italian. These these were street foods. Yeah. It was very smart. And you know, Calabrio is interesting because it's right. It's between the two c's, but also it's it's you can see the mountains. Right? So you have both, you know, the influence coming from water in terms of food and, as well as the mountains. I mean, we went to one, Osteria. It was in the middle of nowhere. I think it was called Akri near Cosenza. It was called, but, I mean, entirely, it was something else. For the antipasto, of course, it was, I think, at literally twenty or even more antipasto coming out. I was just so overwhelmed. I'm like, okay, I'm done. And then they're like, okay, now the primo. And the griliata, you know. So it was in it was I felt like I was in a wedding, but, at the setting, I mean, very beautiful food, you know, because it was a modern interpretation of the the local food. So it wasn't, you know, you expect in the middle of nowhere, you know, very traditional local food, but it was yes, local, but they had that modern touch to it. And I think there's some serious talents coming out of us at Calabra as well in terms of food and, wine hospitality. Sounds amazing. And is that gonna be an annual event then? Is that something that they're gonna take on the road somewhere else? Or how how how will that work? So so this is obviously a joint venture in a collaboration partnership with, Calabrio region. So it's Vinitally in the city, of course, is the brand is owned by Verona Fierda. So they actually organized everything, and, and the region, of course, they helped to finance because to pull off something like that, I think they were they promoted the local producers. They were about ninety. So the the wine production in Club is relatively small if you compare to other big regions, especially like Veneto. And then that was to promote the local wineries, but they also had other organizations, you know, like dona delvino, and then, you know, Marano wine festival, and then Gamero. So, like, they all had their little side stands as well. So they've tasted the the consumers, the, were, were able to taste not just Calabrio wines, but also ones from all over Italy. And the long winded answer to your question is, yes, I believe the third edition hat is already being planned. And Vinitally is planning to go elsewhere in, in Italy. Yes. Yeah. It seems to be a a kind of current trend or recurring team this idea of going out and meeting the consumers where they are rather than expecting them always to come from here to verona. Yeah. Absolutely. So that would be your short haul trip, just a little joint down to Calabrio. You've also been further a few and Central Asia. I know there's an area that's of particular interest to you at the moment. Can you talk to us a little bit then about Kazakhstan and and what you've been doing in Kazakhstan? Kazakhstan. It's absolute opposite of Calabria. I think it's one of the most northern pot, of, you know, the map here. So Kazakhstan, very interesting. We used to do Vineetale, Russia, hugely successful. And I don't say that lightly because I, you know, I hate superlatives, right? I do say super skinny a lot. I realize that. Because of the war, we've tried to do something as an alternative. Right? Not to replace it, but as an alternative, in terms of market where they speak Russia. Yes. But also, there is a big Italian wine community there in Kazakhstan, the population is incredibly young. More than I think about half of the population, is under twenty five years old. It's it's it's it's just amazing and you see that everywhere you go. We went to an Italian restaurant, like one of the new restaurants right now. It's called Jaltino. And I guess that's kind of a new trendy restaurant right now. It's absolutely gorgeous. It's beautiful. And what we saw was that every single table was completely participated by young people. The oldest people, obviously, in, at the restaurant were us. Right? That's, you know, sad from, you know, our personal perspective, but incredibly optimistic. Right? So it's exciting to see young people dying out and enjoy the wines potentially, you know, and Italian wine is actually number one in Kazakhstan. So, a lot of enthusiasm. It's a small, it's a small market, right, still. But I think it it's potentially interesting also for to, to use as a, bridge to going to other central asian, areas. You know, Uzbekistan. I Kyrgyzstan. I can't even pronounce all of them, right? But all the all the countries that ends with time. We love it. It's actually beautiful. And it's the country where Almaty is where the the apple was born. So Almaty, it means like the grandma of of may, like, you know, mayla, which is, apple. So the apple originates from all apples in the world originated from Omati. Which is very interesting. And the cuisine is very interesting too because there are nomads. So I think one of the most beautiful restaurants I know, like, if people are listening to me, they feel like, you know, they might think that I'm all I'm doing is eating and drinking. But I mean, yes. Yes. Yes. This is part of work. One of the most beautiful, restaurants that I've been to in mind, her life. It's not like Michelin or anything like that. But, it's called owl, and it's they've interpreted the nomadic cuisine into, modern styled, presentation, and super interesting, super refined, Although there's a lot of horse meeting involved, which I'm not a big fan. Mhmm. But it is, one of the most beautiful places that I've been to. Okay. So from the peace and tranquility of, Central Asia, let's head to the United States. And many of our listeners will be familiar with wine to wine, the annual business forum held in Verona in the autumn. But this year, the forum is is transferring to Chicago. Yeah. So, actually, a wine to wine first time after eleven years, we're, going to Chicago. And it is actually an event and an event. What I mean by that is it's inside Vineetley USA Chicago. So, Vineetley USA, this is a second new in Chicago. Concurrently, we have wine to wine. We'll have in one room dedicated to wine to wine and Venitulate International Academy. So a lot of things going on in the US. I know these are challenging times, but we want to give, more support and energy into the US market because in the end, it is the most important market for Italian wine literally at the moment. Yeah. And will the corner survive the relocation to Chicago? I don't know, Richard. It's just This is a question that we're all demanding. Yeah. I would I would love to have a book corner. I mean, we'll we're thinking of doing, like, you know, maybe, mixing the book corner with the podcast corner or something like that. But I'm not sure because we are not in fully charge of, the event, and we have one dedicated room, and it's very tight Right? Because it'll be alternated by thirty minute sessions and forty five minutes master classes. And it's just two days, and then we have the pinning ceremony. We have the opera wine announcement. So it is seriously packed, and I'm not sure there's room for, a book corner. Maybe, you know, we we can work on that over the summer. Very good. Okay. What watch this space. After all that traveling, Stev, you're obviously now looking forward to your holidays. So how will you be relaxing this summer? Where are you going? What will you be drinking and what will you be reading? So, yeah, I don't know if I would call my summers relaxing because I will be working most of the time. Paradox, okay, when the offices are closed for two weeks, I feel like I'm I work the most just because nobody's else is around. So when people, if there's something go going wrong, then people will need my help. So That's I'll be back in New York. I'm leaving Friday, of course. And, I I have so many books, right? Like so many you gave me one, for example. Right? You gave me verona Campione, the Meracle of eighty five, and I still have your books from notes, from Verona, the, the anthology one. So, maybe I'll try to have a little read with that. Of course, we have all of our books, which I I have to reread because the art of storytelling of wine storytelling from Shanesa. Like, I, you know, I read it, but I haven't really I think I could read that book at least like hundred times, you know. So, And still not understand. Yeah. Still not understand, like, you know, thirty percent of it. I'm satisfied with. And then I have so many books, whether it's related to wine, whether it's related to marketing, whether it's related to communication, and, and sometimes, most of the time I'm reading stuff on my laptop, which is very sad. So, that's part of just my job and, you know, it's not it's it doesn't feel like work. And I think someone said that, you know, your work is, you know, not really work when you enjoy it. Yeah. And that's exactly the way the the way I am. I know that, you know, at the office, you you guys are not hundred percent convinced of that, especially when I'm screaming and yelling, but, I do enjoy it and you know, that it relaxes me. So And what what what about eating and drinking in New York? What are you most looking forward to? What would be the first thing you do? I love having Asian food. Yeah. Because it's something I miss very much here in Italy because it's not very varied. Right? It's mostly tie in. And when we're doing events, paradoxically, we're going to Italian restaurants. Yeah. So when I'm in my own time, I'm trying to have, you know, Korean food. Like, I didn't even eat kimchi when I when I grew up. I only started eating kimchi once I moved to Italy. Yeah. You know? You know, the fermented cabbage, you know, I didn't I wasn't keen. It was like smelly and I was like, you know, I was I was not a big fan. Yeah. But now I love it. Sorry. I I was the same with whiskey actually. I didn't drink whiskey with it in Scotland. Oh, really? But now you're a big fan. No. I it's only really when I came to Italy that I understood how highly regarded this product was, that I Yeah. This drink was, this beverage was that I that I, you know, started to drink it in a big way. What are you doing for holidays? Well, I I just moved house so our holidays are pretty Yeah. Pretty limited. We're kind of still unpacking and tidying up the house, and we decided really to sacrifice our our summer holidays. We'll undoubtedly get down to Tuscany where we have family for a for a week or two but yeah, basically, quite local. One book I've been rereading actually quite recently as a book by Tim Parks, publishing program at three, but it says book called Italian Neighbors. I know. It's a great book. Brilliant. Isn't it? And I reread it because I I found it when I was unpacking my, boxes, and it's still incredibly Yeah. Relevant. Pornient. Yeah. And nothing changes. You know, he wrote this twenty years ago when he moved to Italy. Nothing changes. And he's still encountered and I'm still encountering the same kind of issues and problems. Yeah. But he does it with such warmth and affection. Yeah. It was before iPhone, before AI, of course, before a lot of things. Yeah. Right. So, yeah. So some things have changed. Yeah. But, brilliant brilliant book and and very funny and very well observed. So highly recommended, especially if you're thinking about relocating to Italy. So, you know, like, I live, like, right on top of the stadium. I hope there are no stalkers listening to this. So how did this this thing come about the hellas. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you get a big publisher this time, so I got a good publisher. Yeah. Pitch, pitch publishing, which is a UK based publisher. And, I mean, basically, football is my my big passion because you're a coach. Right? I'm a coach. I coached the kids. I play, I go to the stadium. I've had a season ticket here for, for more than ten years. So football, and then I I've started to do some articles and to write about football. Then, obviously, this year is the fortieth anniversary of when Helas Verona, the local team. Oh, really? I didn't even know Josh. I'm like That was eighty five. So forty years ago. So the book is basically intended to commemorate to celebrate that. Oh, I see. So it takes the, you know, I spoke to fans, I spoke to players, I spoke to journalists. So trying really to recreate what it was like to be in this city, to be in Italy, during that team, and then the this incredible drama of a real underdog. And this was the era guys like Maradona and and Platini probably even you've heard of them, Steve. Yes. I've even maradona's all over the place in Naples. Else? Yeah. So it was an incredible era for Italian football, and I just felt this was a story that had to be told to an English audience or English speaking audience because it's very well known obviously in in verona and in Italy, but not so well known outside. Yeah. So I'm not a a soccer fan, obviously. Right? So, like, tell me what's in there. Give me the synopsis. Yeah. I mean, basically, it it tells the story of that season from the first game, which was against Maradona's Napoli. To the last game of the season when they lifted the trophy, but there's a bit more to it than that. There's kind of context and social context, political context, historical context, because for me, the the mid eighties is such a really colorful and vibrant period. It's a period when I I was a kid I grew up in the eighties, so it was really amazing to go back, and relive that time. There was so much going on in Italy politically, economically just emerging from from the years of of terrorism and and stuff like that. So I've I've tried to give as much context and as much, background as possible. So in some of the chapters of football is is you know, almost like a a footnote. But it really is a a a brilliant story, a story of an underdog team of a group of players who who came from nowhere and and won the the most prestigious title in in World Football. So if this were your book were turned into a documentary, let's say, movie. Yeah. Okay. Who is the main protagonist of the book? The the main protagonist is probably the coach of Skye Osvaldo Bagnoli who Who's in that? He's on the front cover. Yeah. And he was quite an idiosyncratic person, a man of very few words from from Milan, a working class background in Milan, but he'd been a player a a decent player and then he'd he'd coach stepping down the the peninsula, but his wife was from Verona. So he he settled in Verona and and took over the club and really had a had an immediate impact but he had a very dry sense of humor, very few words. He could communicate to the players just with a with a look. So he would definitely be the the star of the show. And what about your, notes for Vidana. I bought this book from Amazon. I still I have to, like, I have to confess. I have not gone through the book yet. It's one of those Is it still selling? Yes. It's still available on Amazon. It sells, yeah, like, it's not flying off the shelves, but, yeah, it still sells. It's basically I basically blogged from for the first ten years or so. I was blogging about everything really from from wine and daily life and taking my kids to school inspired by Tim Parks, really. And then at a certain Have you ever met him? I have met him a couple of times. Yeah. He's he's a lovely, lovely guy. You should try to get him on your show. Oh, no. That's a good idea. Hello? But I you know, that's a good idea. But he it doesn't matter if the book is old. He's written all the books as well. He's written all the books, but he not really about wine? Or No. You can yeah. Just just get him on that. Okay. For sure. Yeah. Why not? Okay. What's the space? Yeah. So Yeah. At a certain point, I decided I'm gonna blogging just seemed a bit, I don't know, out of date, all of a sudden. So I thought I'm gonna take this blog down, but before I do, I'm gonna put it all in a book format. Yeah. And put it on Amazon. And that's what I did. So the website notes from verona doesn't exist anymore, but the book does. So in a way, it's kind of almost like a reverse, I don't know, reverse technology going from blogging back to traditional publishing, I suppose, but with Amazon as the intermediary? Yeah. Well, Amazon works. Alright. Okay. Stevie, thank you very much for your time. Maybe just everyone knows where to find you, I suppose, on social media, but if you want to plug where we can buy these books, where we can, where we can follow you on social media. No. They can find me on the net. It's stevie Kim, one more two two two. That's kind of my main handle. Okay. But if you're a wine professional, hook me hook me up, tap me on linkedin, which is the best place. So I know I I can make sure you're not a psychopath, but I'm what you call a open networker. I mostly connect with everybody who requests connectivity. Great. Fantastic. Thank you very much, Steve. It's been really fun talking to you. Okay. Listen. Have a great great summer. Thank you. Okay. Chara Gatsi. Chara with me. Thanks for joining us on book club with the Italian Line podcast. Tuneing again next month when we'll get between the vines with another great wine book. Remember, as shownotes, including full details of all the books we've discussed today, are available at Italian wine podcast dot com or wherever you get tutorials.