Episode 2492

Ep. 2492 Sunny Hodge | Book Club with Richard Hough

Book Club

October 10, 2025

3718.0864

Sunny Hodge

Literature

Episode Summary

<think> I need to analyze the transcript of Episode 2492 of the Italian Wine Podcast featuring Sunny Hodge discussing his book "The Cynic's Guide to Wine." I'll follow the requested format for content analysis with specific sections and word limits. First, let me understand what this episode is about: The episode features Richard Hough (host) interviewing Sunny Hodge, author of "The Cynic's Guide to Wine" published by Academy Duven Library in June 2025. Sunny Hodge is the founder and owner of two wine bars in South London: Diogenes the Dog and Aspen and Meursault. Key points from the interview: 1. Sunny's background: He has a degree in mechanical engineering and worked in hospitality (from Nando's to Margot, a prestigious Italian restaurant in London) before opening his own wine bars. 2. His motivation for writing the book: He felt wine was his "weakness" in hospitality despite being able to sell it through storytelling. He wanted to understand the technical aspects of wine rather than just the stories. 3. His approach to wine: He advocates for "no storytelling" in wine service, focusing instead on technical understanding. He describes himself as "cynical" in the original sense of the word - questioning what we're told. 4. His wine bars: Diogenes the Dog features wines from obscure regions (Taiwan, Texas, India, China, Japan, Poland) specifically to spark conversations rather than rely on familiar brands. 5. His views on wine marketing: He believes wine is overly marketed through storytelling rather than technical understanding, similar to how a Ferrari might be sold based on its engineering rather than just its Italian craftsmanship. 6. His book's focus: It challenges common wine misconceptions, particularly around soil/minerality connections. He argues that wines don't literally taste like the soil they're grown in. 7. His scientific approach: He conducted extensive research through academic journals, university lectures, and soil science to inform his book. 8. His views on minerality: He explains that what we call "minerality" in wine isn't actually tasting minerals from the soil, but rather certain sulfur compounds that create flinty or struck-match aromas. 9. His relationship with Italian wine: He imports wine from Morasenzi winery in Puglia (run by Sfeva who farms regeneratively) and takes his staff there to learn about production. 10. His advice for aspiring wine writers: Focus on how you'll sell the book, not just that it's a good idea; create a strong proposal that addresses the business angle. Now I'll structure my analysis according to the requested format: **Content Analysis** **Key Themes (max 5 points)** I need to identify the 5 most important themes from this interview. 1. The tension between storytelling and technical understanding in wine marketing and education 2. Questioning established wine narratives and misconceptions (particularly around soil/minerality) 3. The importance of scientific literacy in wine appreciation 4. Creating spaces for authentic wine conversation through unconventional wine selections 5. The role of hospitality in bridging the gap between wine science and consumer understanding **Summary (max 200 words)** I'll write a concise summary of the main points of the interview. **Key Takeaways (max 6 points)** I'll identify the 6 most important insights from the interview. **Notable Quotes (max 3)** I'll select 3 particularly insightful or representative quotes. **Follow-up Questions (max 3)** I'll pose 3 thoughtful questions that extend the conversation. Let me craft each section carefully within the word limits. </think> **Content Analysis** **Key Themes (max 5 points)** 1. The tension between storytelling and technical understanding in wine marketing and education 2. Questioning established wine narratives and misconceptions (particularly around soil/minerality) 3. Creating spaces for authentic wine conversation through unconventional wine selections 4. The importance of scientific literacy in wine appreciation and hospitality 5. Bridging the gap between academic wine science and consumer understanding **Summary (max 200 words)** Sunny Hodge, owner of London wine bars Diogenes the Dog and Aspen and Meursault, discusses his book "The Cynic's Guide to Wine" with host Richard Hough. Hodge, a former mechanical engineer turned hospitality professional, explains his frustration with wine's reliance on storytelling rather than technical understanding. His bars deliberately feature obscure wines from regions like Taiwan, China, and Texas to spark genuine conversations rather than mechanical service. The book challenges common wine misconceptions, particularly the belief that wines taste like their soil composition. Hodge argues that what's described as "minerality" in wine isn't literal minerals from soil but rather sulfur compounds creating flinty aromas. His research involved extensive academic study of soil science, microbiology, and chemistry to understand wine's technical aspects. Hodge advocates for moving beyond marketing narratives to help consumers understand wine's actual production processes, comparing it to understanding a Ferrari's engineering rather than just its Italian craftsmanship. He emphasizes that questioning wine narratives isn't cynicism in a negative sense but essential for genuine understanding. His approach has led to importing regenerative-farmed wines from Puglia and creating educational experiences for his staff through vineyard visits. **Key Takeaways (max 6 points)** - Wine is uniquely marketed through storytelling rather than technical understanding, unlike other premium products - The concept of "minerality" in wine is largely a misnomer; wines don't literally taste like their soil composition - Selecting obscure wines creates space for authentic conversation between staff and customers - Understanding wine's scientific basis helps consumers make informed choices beyond marketing narratives - Hospitality professionals should balance storytelling with technical knowledge to educate consumers - Questioning established wine narratives is essential for the industry's evolution and consumer empowerment **Notable Quotes (max 3)** - "Wine, for that reason, just felt like a problem that needed to be fixed, and that was really what sparked my interest in wanting to understand it more." - "The more you learn about soil, the more you realize that those things just aren't correct... we need to untangle that and make sense of it." - "I think the term minerality is less our brain saying, 'I smell a rock,' but it's because we can't... taste that rock... but it's our brain trying to communicate what that flavor is that we don't fully understand." **Follow-up Questions (max 3)** 1. How can wine educators effectively balance storytelling (which engages consumers) with scientific accuracy without overwhelming or alienating casual wine drinkers? 2. What specific changes would you recommend to wine certification programs to incorporate more scientific understanding alongside traditional tasting and regional knowledge? 3. How might the wine industry's shift toward more technical communication impact small producers who rely heavily on storytelling to compete with larger brands?

About This Episode

Speaker 1 discusses the importance of storytelling in the wine industry and the challenges of promoting wine in a niche area. They emphasize the importance of learning about the "naughty kid" and "naughty drink" in the crafting process. They also emphasize the importance of understanding the "naughty kid" and "naughty drink" in the crafting process. They stress the importance of finding a writing person who is willing to pay for the book and finding a writing person who is willing to pay for the book.

Transcript

A as a kid, I was always the annoying kid who asked too many questions, but I think we we all were born with that. And, we we quickly lose it in in adulthood because sometimes it's it's quite maybe embarrassing or scary to continually or or annoying to ask questions all the time. Yeah. I know from my own experience, my two kids. At that stage, they go to it where they they ask why continually. Yeah. I was so pleased when they when they pass that phase. I know. No. They really couldn't care less. Hello, and welcome to book club with the Italian wine podcast. I'm your host, Richard Hoff, and I'm delighted that you're joining us. As we get between the vines with some of the best wine writing out there. So sit back, pour yourself a glass and enjoy the show with the Italian wine podcast. This month, our guest is Sunny Hodge, the author of the Phoenix Guide to Wine published by the Academy Duven Library in June twenty twenty five. Hi, Sunny. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much for agreeing to come on the Italian wine podcast. And a massive congratulations on your new book. As a blind optimist myself, I'm really looking forward to hearing all about it. Thank you, Richard, for having me. It's a it's a real pleasure. I'm really excited to have this conversation. Great. So before we get started on this book that you've just published, I wanted to get back at a little bit to the to the beginning if you like of your interest and why you completed the degree in mechanical engineering before embarking on a career in hospitality. At your Korean hospitality then took me from Nando's to Margo, one of London's most prestigious Italian restaurants. So what first got you into Wayne was it strictly professional? Or was a glass of wine something that you enjoyed on a personal level as well? Yeah. So I, as you mentioned, I'd worked in hospitality for a long long time from, casual dining, all the way up to to Margot, which was, you know, a really fancy, set up beautiful service, incredible food, and a destination spot for for celebs and and things like that. So all through that journey, as a manager within restaurants, you have to be largely an amazing jack of all trades. So not only do you have to, be able to fix anything that breaks down and understand your food product service, standards, and drinks offering, the only way that you can really drive and develop your head bartenders and head songs is if you know their product to a level where you can actually directing and guide them. So you have to be good at everything all the time, I believe, as a as a good manager, which which is really tough, and I think as I progressed within restaurants and then went out to consult and and help on other restaurant openings, I felt that wine was very much my weakness. It it was the thing that made little to no sense And and because of that, when when it came to me opening my own my own spot hospitality, my own hospitality venue, in two thousand eighteen, I was thinking, what is What's the problem that I feel that I can help in solving? And having been in hospitality for such a long time, it didn't make any sense to me that wine was still my weakness. I could sell the stuff we were selling bottles of, Saskicaya, big bordeaux, quite easily at Margaux. We were but it was all through storytelling. And, weirdly, the rest of hospitality from cocktails to food, to service to making rotors, it was all, like, understanding how stuff worked as opposed to storytelling. So wine, for that reason, just felt like a problem that needed to be fixed, and that was really what sparked. My interest in wanting to understand it more. I opened Diogenes the dog, which is my first wine bar in elephant and castle London in two thousand eighteen, opening it with the understanding that the concept was to help consumers understand wine better technically. So no storytelling. The list was designed for no one to know the wines from that list, whether you're an expert or not. So we were getting in wines from Taiwan, Texas, India, China, Japan, Poland. We had a list that was designed to spark conversations rather than guess picking and choosing what they found on the list, and then your Semelio going away. And grabbing it. So so I counter intuitively, the thing that got me into wine was the fact that it still didn't make any sense after such a long time. That's very interesting. And and also, a a lot of our listeners will be surprised to to hear this concept of no storytelling because storytelling really is one of the the buzz words around the wine industry at the moment in terms of being able to Yeah. To sell your wine, but you take a slightly different perspective or not perhaps a more cynical perspective? Yeah. I I think the word cynical now means something very different to to what it once did. And I I I would say that I use the term cynical as as the original formation of the word, where it means just to question what we're told. And yeah. Absolutely. Like, wine is largely marketed using storytelling. And I think that that will never go away. And I think marketing in its pure sense is is a form of storytelling. Like, if you can't tell people, what is so good about your product, then it's gonna be really hard to to sell your product. But equally, let's take the example of a car for example. Yes, you can sell a Ferrari and tell everyone the story of Ferrari. How beautiful the thing is and the Italian craftsmanship, etcetera, etcetera. But if you're spending that much money on something, I think it's also valuable to understand the technical aspects of what's behind it. Yeah. Some people will buy that Ferrari purely on the stories alone. And some and a huge sector of the market will buy it because they actually like cars and understand them technically and think that that's the reason that they want to buy it because of the, I don't know, engine size or, zero to sixty miles per hour details. And I think within wine, Not enough consumers understand the makeup and the technical aspects of wine, and most consumers are being sold wine on storytelling. Yeah. So bearing in mind, what you said about your definition of cynicism in terms of it being about questioning things. Where does that come from? And does it apply? I guess not, but does it apply just to why not are you questioning? Are you are you cynical in other areas of your life as well? You mentioned, Diodji needs the dog the name of your one of your bars and I think with the founders, one of the founders of the philosophy, obviously, and the cynicism. Yeah. That's obviously a a key theme in your your life and your your work. Where did that come from? Yeah. I I think as a as a kid, I was always the annoying kid who asked too many questions, but I think we we all were born with that. And, we we quickly lose it in in adulthood because sometimes it's it's quite maybe embarrassing or scary to continually or or annoying to ask questions all the time. Yeah. Any annoying, I know from my own experience message that that phase they go through, where they they ask why? Yeah. I was so pleased when they when they passed that day, but no. No. They they couldn't kill it. I I don't have kids, yet. But I've weirdly, maybe I haven't lived it yet. But I'm really looking forward to that phase because because I think that is that is so important to us learning and understanding the world around us. And then I've I feel that as soon as you you start to become an adult and you form your ego, you actually protect taking your ego from other people thinking, oh, this person doesn't know anything why they're asking questions all the time, or just in a social aspect of you don't wanna be the annoying person asking questions all the time. But those questions are really what help us understand, like, reality. So not only was I that annoying kid growing up, but engineering did not help at all. Right. Because engineering is all about, taking stuff apart, realizing, like, understanding how