Ep. 52 Monty Waldin interviews Tim Manning (Vinochisti Winery) | Discover Italian Regions: Tuscany / Toscana

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast with me Monte Walden. In the hot seat today is Tim Manning, founder owner of the Vinoquisti. Have I said that right? You have indeed. Winery in Panzano in Kianti, classico in Tuscany. Tim, let's start by asking, where are you from? Was born in Manchester, brought up just outside Liverpool, a little place called The Whirl. A little place called The Whirl. Yeah. Okay. Well, a little village on the whirl called Griesby, but I don't think anybody's ever heard of of Well, we we've heard of it now. Okay. So how did you get into wine? To be absolutely honest, I finished my degree in the early nineties and What did you study? I studied agricultural science. Alright. Okay. Which the time I was studying in Edinburgh, focusing mostly on animals, so nothing really vine related. I didn't wanna pursue a career, let's say, in that field and had to go and find some work. I ended up responding to an ad at a local up in shop. To wine shop? Yes. China of wine stores. China wine stores in the UK, unfortunately, well, sort of exists still now. So that was in Upper Edinburgh. I began working there in October ninety five just as a sales assistant, and basically that was the beginning. So you knew nothing about wine at the time. I had an interest to kind of passing interest while so was it uni? Drinking, basically. Well, yes, I I liked obviously drinking that as well there. But I had some good friends and occasionally we kind of get together and go and buy some good bottles of wine and and sit down and taste them and try and think that we sort of knew a little bit about them. Do you remember any Italian wines that shook your tree at that period? Well, when I first started working at Ob bins, one of the things that kind of ultimately led me to come here was actually a bottle of cabernet franc from a producer called Quintarelli from the veneto region. So French great variety mode by famous? Yeah. Italian producer. Very very famous, but made and kinda quite a particular way too. And it just kind of stuck me. And one of the things I think also parts from that bottle, which was fantastic. I just liked Italian wines because I found them very diverse, very interesting thing. And, obviously, at the time working as an impoverished sales assistant, they were relatively inexpensive as well. So, yeah, they were really kind of sparked my interest in wine, not only wine, but particularly Italian So how what was your first job in Italy then? What were you doing and who are you working for and where? So I came here in, September ninety eight, really on a bit of a whim. I'd, been working for opens up until relatively just before then. I decide that wine retail wasn't for me. I literally packed my job in. I grabbed myself a return airplane ticket which lasted for months. Had about enough money to last me about four weeks, and I came to Italy with the hope of finding some work during harvest. There were two things that probably would have made that quite difficult. One was I didn't know anybody when I came here and two, I didn't speak a word of Italian. After about three or something, we weeks of kind of basically wandering around the high roads and by roads of Kianti in particular, looking at the pros prospect of sort of ignominious return to the UK. By a series of fortunate coincidences came across a chat called Shawno Callahan, who, at the time, was the winemaker at Rietchine. And, after basically harassing him for about a week by telephone, he he kind of succumbed and gave me a job picking grapes for the harvest of ninety eight Vietchina. So you stayed? I did. Yeah. I worked with Sean for a few weeks picking grapes, which was enormous fun. And then at the end of that time, the guy, the chapo I worked with in the winer at the time, a guy called, Pietro, who was basically Sean's right hand man. He wanted to leave and go on work in a in a bigger winery. Sean was looking for somebody to fulfill his rather large shoes because he was a a very good guy. And, Sean, basically, asked me if I would like to stay here and end up doing Pieto's job and he would teach me about Viticulture and wire making. Right. So that was, that was it, basically. Yeah. What was the main thing you learned from Shauna, kinda had a reaction at the time? Well, I I got to it was obviously really my first introduction to a variety which I continue to work within love, Sanjay, those wines at the H and A Counties, the county classicals are based, either in part or entirely on just that variety. I'd never worked at all in a vineyard. I'd never driven a tractor. I didn't know how to spray vines or treat them or prune them. And Sean, along with Pietta or whilst he was we worked side by side for a few months. You know, they those two guys really taught me the the basics, let's say, of of how to look after a vineyard, how to grow grapes, how to harvest those grapes and transform them into into wine. You've been picking them out exactly the right time? Yeah. Yeah. Tasting, the how the fermentation works, you know, punching downs, pumping over, introducing things like using different types of wood, large casks, barreaches. You know, it really gave me a a complete grounding and you know, how to make wine. And then along with the other experiences that I had following Rietz and A ended up allowing me if you like to to begin to produce my own way. So were your family quite glad to see the back of you or were they worried about you or No. I was in my late twenties when I came here. So I I think my family were just very happy that I'd I was pursuing something that they could see that I was genuinely passionate about. And obviously, you know, they quite like the that I was living here in Tuscany because, you know, it's not a bad place to come and visit. Okay. So the next step was, Vino Kisti, which is your own brand? Yes. I, after I etchner, I worked for Echner a bit. I actually then went back and treated, a degree in winemaking down in New Zealand. I spent a bit of time working in New Zealand and the US with Peenon Ross specifically. Came back to Italy in o four to help begin making or basically setting up a winemaking them, at a producer called Iborgetto, where is that? Near San Casiano. Still is a family run property. They have planted some vines produced a very small amount of one in o three, but o four was really their first, that say commercial vintage, very young vineyards. So you were making the wine for them? Yes. How much more challenging was that knowing that your arse is on the line? If you're working someone else's winery and you make a mistake, they can say, well, actually, I didn't tell you how to do it right. It's my fault. Whereas if you're on your own. Yes. I did sort of feel that my my proverbial ass was a bit on the line because when I arrived there, the owner, Antono Cavalini, he had been making a bit of wine, but didn't really have a sort of system in place to produce the wine that was of the grapes that were about to arrive from these new vineyards. And, I'd just come back from working in Oregon, for a producer called Christom, and, I rather boldly persuaded him to adopt some methods of production, which I was quite keen to to experiment with, that I picked up from working with, a chat called Steve Dornor at Kristen? And what does that mean though? It's about organization you're talking about? It was about more about method. I can only like what gone. So, Kristam, this is a a producer that sort of specializes if you like in single vineyard wines. I arrived at Bogetto in January four and was immediately kind of struck by the fact that the vineyards were because small property, but with lots and lots of small vineyards. And so I wanted to produce the wine on a vineyard by vineyard basis, and that involved doing small batch ferments, so I persuaded the owner to eat all he was all lined up to buy a couple of very large tennesseal tanks in which he would then ferment and to certainly age some of the wine. I persuaded him instead to buy about twenty five one ton plastic square bins, which we took us about several weeks to find on the internet because they're not really, very readily available around here. And in two thousand and four, the Vintus two thousand and four, I managed to persuade him to pretty much ferment every single vineyard block of which there were over twenty in the small bins. Was this bank manager happy with your idea? He was very, very happy because the the the small bins, the plastic bins cost an awful lot less than the money it set aside for buying the the stainless steel totally. So, basically, he was gonna put put all his eggs into one single big omelet. And you said, actually, if you look after each egg separately Yeah. And make a ball egg with one, a Friday with another scrambler with one, then we can see what we can do at the end of the when everything is is is cooked, so to speak. Yeah. I I I didn't see the point in having this beautiful vineyard, these beautiful vineyards with different clones of Sanjuveysy, different rootstocks. In some cases, different varieties as well, a little bit of cavities, so a little bit of mellow. I didn't see the point in inputting all those things, as you say, all those eggs in one basket because, you know, each vineyard due to the fact of where it was due to the fact of the clone of sangiovese at the rootstock obviously would express itself slightly differently. We all so used, whole clusters as well. Whole but whole bunches. Whole bunches. Yeah. Which we selected according to the ripeness of the bunches in each of the different vineyards, so that the percentages of whole bunches changed. And we based at the instead of pumping things over, which was a method that I'd come across obviously frequently from my previous work, not just at reaction, but obviously having seen other Kianz class cup producers as well. We basically pumped everything down. So more burgundian. Very much so. We're very begundian by proxy, I suppose, because It's basically a bloke from Manchester goes to Oregon. Oregon's influenced by burgundy, comes back to Kianti and then starts And begun defies a very traditional Tuscan estate. Yes. So in your in terms of your own brand, Vino Kisti, let's just talk about the name. And Vino Kisti, what is that? What was that from? You're you're very smartly dressed, partly spoken polite, young man. Not so young. And Vino Kisti. What does it mean? So in two thousand and six, I was obviously still working at well, I was still working at Bogetto as their full time winemaker. I since now I work more on a consultant basis. A friend of mine who makes wine in Umbria. I met him one day, and he'd asked me to try some some Sagrantina, some very young Sagrantina. A red wine grape. Yes. From the kind of noble grape red grape of umbmbria. And I was I'd always kind of marked that there's a notice the fact about seventeen of how just tough and tannic it could be. So I thought, I wouldn't mind getting a bit of this variety because it was a a variety that I liked, a bit different to Sanjay, and, just to take a small number of grapes and sort of try and have a go myself. So I asked Antonio if I could do that at Buggato, and he conceded and said, find no problem. So I ended up buying these grapes from a producer in Monte file cut and bringing them by kind of packing them into a hired van, bringing them to Bogetto and making them into wine there, ended up producing wine, and I wanted to come up with a name. So the idea was because it was the first then of other varieties that I worked with. This idea of taking indigenous Italian grape varieties from wherever they may appear in Italy and bringing them back to Tuscany and transforming them into wine how I wanted to do it. So without following any of the rules and regulations that was that the use will often find in Italian wine production. And so I kind of thought of this, and I thought, well, it's kind of a bit like making wine as sort of a bit of an anarchist way. And so I kind of thought, well, and, anarchy of winemaking, anarchist, vinyl kiss, that's that sounds like quite a catchy name. So vinyl kissed, and then I thought, because I'm in Italy, I'd make it sound a bit Italian, so I added an eye on the end. So it it came in O'kisti. So in the end, it doesn't really mean anything in English, and it doesn't mean anything in Italian either, anyway, I like the sound. So which other group apart from Sacramento from the Montifalco region in Mumbai? Which other groups have you or are you working with indigenous Italian varieties? So the Sagrantino was joined in two thousand and nine by a white variety from a tiny, tiny appylation up in the north of Italy close to Chirena called El Balcci in Piamonte so close to Iveria in the provincial of Biela. I think it is. Through a a friend of mine, I managed to find a a great grower who was prepared to sell me grapes, which is no mean feat because I I think if I'm right, there are only a couple of hundred hectares of El Baluchi, and most of it, well, none of it. In fact, I think I will be fair we've had to say that none of it makes its way outside of that area apart from the three tons of grapes that every year I go up and and buy from two thousand and nine from the same producer. I mean, I I believe it has been called Guimante's most underrated white grape variety. Do you go along with that? One of the reasons that I wanted to I I I kinda particularly focused on it was I honestly can't remember the first time I tried the variety, but I can remember then trying it after from a few different producers. I don't know. There was there were bigger producers. The wines were were well made, but quite simple, but I don't know. There was just something about that I I liked, and and I thought maybe in the case of, let's say, you know, I don't know, doing a bit of skin contact fermentation, maybe aging a little bit little bit in wood. To make it a little bit like a red wine, skin contact, that's what that's trying to say. Yeah. Yeah. Because the the variety itself doesn't have particularly overpowering powering aromas, but it has a certain structure to it. I think that was the thing that that kind of caught me was that it had a kind of structure to it, but then in the examples that I tried, I didn't think the aromas, the flavors necessarily add adequately sort of reflected that. What typical flavors are we talking about? Now, the wines that I produce, I think, could probably be considered to be very atypical or, you know, I I do use a skin fermentation in some cases up to several months. You know, this is, as you were saying, to give the wine a certain structure, you begin to make a wine a little bit like a red wine. So you actually extract very similar things color and tanning. So you give the wine and almost tamix structure that's obviously not like a red wine because it doesn't contain the same amount of talent. Now I think I get, the I suppose the two prevalent aromas and flavors would be it has a very kind of flinty notes and a white blossom peach. Where are your wines being sold to? So we we produce a very small amount. We're limited as to how many grapes we can collect in any one go. So that's around about three tons. That's not very much. No. Sounds a lot, but it's it's tiny. No. A couple of thousand bottles at the end. Our biggest markets, the the the United States, a little bit to the UK. Funling off, I have a a reasonably buoyant market and Amahawk. But we're always looking for small markets. So it's more of a kind of niche market. People who might like to, let's say, experiment a little bit. I mean, these are kind of by their essence, quite experimental ones. I mean, I'm I'm not trying to make wines that nobody can drink, obviously. I'd like to drink them myself, but I more importantly, I'd like other people to enjoy them too. So I'm not producing a wine. We're not producing wine, you know, just for the sake of experimenting. It's, we're trying to produce something that in the end is a different slant a different approach on a variety like Erbaluchia, but in the end of the day, hopefully, is enjoy is enjoyable too. I mean, both Circolantino and Erbaluchic could be described as underdog varieties. Yes. Are you you someone that kinda goes to the underdog or or not? Yes. Sir. I think so. I mean, in terms of EZYU, it's where you're gonna got your grounding, and that's very much an arrester crack. Everybody knows it. It's the most planted wine grape in Italy. And now you're scrabbling around for these great varieties that sort of barely on anybody's radar apart from a few sort of songs in in New York perhaps. Yeah. I mean, I I've I've since added other varieties, so a white variety. So for the for the first time Tuscum variety last year, I've had naturally Sancommuniano. Mhmm. Again, yeah, so I think you could describe that, a fair description will be as an underdog variety. It's one of the very few white appellations within Tuscany, purely white, and I think it's an often maligned variety. There are some outstanding producers, I think, but it's it tends to be there are a lot quite big producers. I think you produce perfectly adequate, but not particularly interesting wine. So let's say we've given a little bit of the Vino Kisti treatment. What are you looking for in a good Venacci from Sanjay? Well, again, that it's a variety that that's more along the line of of an air balushe. It's not a it's not a strongly aromatic variety. It doesn't base its character on very bright flavors and aromas. It's up to me. It's about structure as well. And so I'm working again more on that rather than trying to transform it into a a kind of fluffy fruity variety, which it is not. So white wine with a bit of mouth filter, a bit of savory texture. Exactly. Yeah. So some skin contact not as long as it and a little bit of wood aging, but old, older wood, nothing nothing new. And, underdog red that you fancy? La well, the other variety which we we started working with a year or so ago, it's nearly due for bottling, is, La Kumar Madalba, which from a red wine point of view, and talking about these white varieties, which are not particularly aromatic, is the is the complete opposite of the red wine varieties. This is probably one of the most aromatic So where's it from, and what does it taste of? It's from the Marquis from a little area called Morodalba, which can be a bit confusing because people sometimes think it's from Alba from Pimonte. So it's on the ad Adratic coast? Yes. Not very far from Encarna. I I would describe it as a than one of the noble varieties because it's one of the few really notable indigenous red varieties for the market. Most people, I think, maybe, have heard of Vedicchio, the white variety, which is a fantastic variety as well. But Laquemar is is a indigenous to that area. By its nature, it it produces wines that are very aromatic, very floral. It's very fruity, isn't it? It's very obvious slee fruity. Yeah. Very kind of in your face, isn't it? I mean, you talk about Benatchers of white, which is a very not in your face. Yes. Very can't quite reserve variety. This is like, it's almost musky, isn't it, like, for a month. It has I mean, one of the things that stuck out to me was it smells like Turkish to life. It has this wonderful kind of rose petal aroma, which, I I think is fantastic. It's just so out of place for for red wine. And then yes, these often the fruit is kind of very sort of crunchy red fruit. Very kind of, again, very kind of bright sort of a little bit in your face. And so, yes, most of the those properties are kind of taken advantage of from the point of view that most Lachramas are made in a very simple, straightforward way to enhance those very typical properties of Lachramas. So they're wines made usually with very little short fermentations, very little post fermentation maceration, aged for the period their age, which is usually not very long in stainless steel. You know, it's it's focusing upon those things rather again rather than the kind of structure of the wine. I suppose if Vinokisti's any about anything, it's a little bit about structure as well. You know, when you talk about structure is about wines that are good with food, good on their own. Yes. You're not talking about these big behemoth heavy. No. No. Absolutely not. No. I mean, when I means when I'm talking about structure, what I'm talking about, mouthful. It is a cut, yes, a kind of fine backbone of talent. One of the things that I I would like my wines to be known for, let's say is, you know, if anybody describes my wines as elegant, then that for me is praising off. You know, I'd elegance is, is what what we're about. Tim Manning, the elegant anarchist in Italian why. Very exciting project, and I hope to keep in touch. Hope to, interview again in the future, find out which other great varieties you're gonna be working with. So I'm sure your project is gonna grow very fascinating. Thanks for coming in on the Italian wine podcast. It's been a real pleasure to meet you. Follow Italian wine podcast on Facebook and Instagram.