Ep. 112 Monty Waldin interviews Alessandro Meniconi (Perticaia) | Discover Italian Regions: Umbria

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast. My name is Monte Walden. My guest today is Alessandro Meniconi. Alessandro is the technologist for the Peticaya winery inumbria. Welcome. Thank you. So just give me a little bit of background on you before we start. Did you did you always know you're gonna work in wine? Did you come from a winemaking family? Family racing drivers, astronauts? I'm Monteful cases. So the second of doing this in my blood. Okay. For sure when I started making wine, I was very young at the beginning, the fashion of winemaking. It was in my dream from my family because we had a very small own production of of wine, but just only in every house is of the town. So So this was just you had a little bit of vineyard just for family. Family. Yeah. Very, very, very, very, very, very small Venus. And then I had the opportunity to study his analogies in the Perusha University and pretty high eyes, in few words, my first love. Really? Why? Because it's, it was my first work experience. And I've started there to making, fifteen days of practice and now I don't know. How old were you then? I was twenty, twenty one. I was twenty. I was doing my practice, for the university. So The practical work for the years. Yeah. And I I had to do fifteen days, and now our eleven years, the time, crash in the grapes with my ends in the state. So I was very fun because I'm starting very young, really without without to know a lot about this beautiful job. Then now I can I can consider the best job of the world because you work in the middle of the nature working only with a fluid and a major to test that product after ten, fifteen days? And and actually in the other side of the world sometimes, sharing it with a other people without with other interesting and with with other culture is absolutely magic. So do you sell the wine as well? I also sell the wine. I'm also the expert manager for the state. So do you clean the loo as well? I mean, men, men, men, the tractors. Is there anything that you don't do in, in particular? For every occasion, I have a a different title. Okay? Okay. So I've started there for making wine, and it's fun when I travel promoting the wine. I'm not a settlement. I'm not a good salesman, but I love to say I promote the wine. And when you can promote them knowing very well how the wine is made, what is exactly the philosophy of the state, and try try to share all the passion that we put in our our job every day is, is much for is is very natural. Okay. So how big is Perteka? How much how big is the vineyard? Perteka. Yeah. It's about sixteen hectares. We are in Casale the Montefalco that is one of the the area in the south of the appalachian. And so this means that generally the maturation of the grape arrives few days before than, the other side of the appalachian. So that area is made with very gentle. It's not heavy or difficult, composition of the soil. So this means that also the wine generally are quite more approachable and elegant, and the maturation arrives very fast. And, we are very happy because this is also part of our goal, trying to make wines, very clean, elegant, fresh, easy to understand, and, in our people wanting a glass of Sacramento. We like if they can drink it without software. I want to be honest because people image this Sacramento like a monster. Yes. Maybe sometimes it can be, but we are fan a big fan of, a Sacramento, also fresh, clean, elegant, and easy to understand also when it's young, and not only after fifteen or twenty years. What is the secret to making a Sacramento from Multi Falco that is that is smooth and not too aggressive and tannic. What are what are you doing? What are you doing in the vineyard? And what are you doing most of all in the winery? Exactly. You're correct. First of all, we have to have a good approach from the vineyards. So one of our secret is try to produce maximum one bottle of wine per plant. So try to concentrate much more as possible in the in the vineyards, the moderation of the tendons and wait and wait and wait. People ask me, but if you wait to match the risk is big, what what you also do. And I answer. I pray a lot. Humbre is very rich in saint. And so we brace sometimes if we if we need some rain or some cooler temperature, and it's very important to chew in this skin, every day, especially in the last period before before the app, before picking the grape, chewing the skin and understand the quality of the tannins. And only when they are completely ready, we harvest the grape and we are not afraid to work it in the cellar, working a lot in the maceration of the skin. I'm not a big fan of, strong extraction of the tendons, but I'm a big fan of quality extraction of the tendons. So it can be strange if I tell you that we do over sixty days of maceration. And, people, when I say this, they are crazy. You're working with the most stunning grape of the world, and you are not afraid to to macerate the skin so long. But it's exactly after a so long time that the tannin starts to become bigger and softer and they start to polymerize and, working very well with the quality of the grape, with the right temperature, and we used to work with spontaneous east from our first vintage. Maybe this is the secret for the fermentation and the for the minification. Well, so you get you get a slower fermentation. Yes. With the spontaneous East with natural East. Then the other big challenge is the use of the wood where we have to be very careful because, we are working with a very tonic grape, and so we have to be very careful to don't give to the wine more ten minutes. So what kind of wood are you using? The the the kind of wood, the kind of oak and also the size? Are you working with small barrels or larger ton of five hundred meters? We we we used to work with, mixed barrels from a small French buried to twenty five hectoliters with barrels. It depends a lot on the vineyards that we are working because we harvest all the vineyards separated. We've unified them separated, and the passing in wood is the aging in wood is separated for each single vineyard. So each each even before you pick it, each little plot will have its own journey through the winery. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So how long did it take you to, you know, obviously very enthusiastic. How long did it take you to really feel you've got a a really good standing of where each or how each plot should be fermented and aged. So is that an ongoing process? Or do you think you've you've you've cracked it? Well, it's something very long. Sometimes, I think, for my experience, in a particular area. Maybe now after fifteen, sixteen, our best. We have a better idea of which Venus can make different results and the time of our best, kind of, firmmentation kind of aging. But, the vintage when you think, okay, now I know everybody, everything, I know everything about my estate is the exact year where everything changed. So you have maybe an idea where that vineyards can usually be the best of your entire, property. And maybe it's happened that you have the hottest vintage of ever like two thousand and seventeen. And maybe the best Argentina that we had, it came from a good side that sometimes that generally the other years made a more simple, Sacramento. So it depends a lot also on the vintage, but now we have an idea. Then now we we did only one Sacramento because at the end of the aging, we blend all their single vineyards together. So we never made a single vineyards, San Bernardino. Do you think you were in the future? I think in the future when we will be more mature in terms of experience with our vineyards, maybe this can be part of our, our project for the future. Yes. So you also make a white wine as well from the Trebiano Espolitino. Tell me a little bit about Trebiano Espolitino. Trebiano Espolitino is one of the new fancy gray rediscovery in the last few years. It's a great, very, very old. Actually, more than, five hundred years of history for this grape, and people ask me, but why if we sold only in the last ten to twelve years people rediscover it. The big problem is that the grape is very particular to be a tribunal, part of the family of the tribunal, actually is completely different to the other tribunal that we know. And one of the big difference is that it's already very, very late in the end of October. So You said ripen's very late. Very, very late. And the end of October for, farmer can be No racking. I'm very, very hard. And this period because we are in the middle of the harvest for the Sacramento. We are full of grape in the cellar. We are starting to pick the olives. So we are in the middle of planting the seeds. The rains are starting to come. And so the farmers in the past say, but I'm not crazier than what to to become crazy growing Trebiano's Paladino. I prefer to maybe make other grapes like Brekito or Trebiano to Scanno that are already generally in the beginning of September. So the only way how the grapes survive during this time is because people usually pick the grapes, they leave it at home to make raisins to eat for Christmas. This was the tradition until less than twenty years ago. There were very, very few small micro producer that, grow the grape, but mostly for blending. But the idea to make Treviano's Porritino to winifite as a single wine is very, very recent. Thirty guy is very proud to be one of the first first producer that decided to rediscover the grape. We did an our own clone selection and the Venus that now we have in the state are, part of our big project of a clone selection, the in checking around the area. Very old plant of Turbiano, during this year draft with the the American roots after that and, a lot of, experiment in the seller, of verification and aging. Now, we have our own selection of, Trebios Palatino, and, we started for joke, to be honest, in two thousand and six. And now, the winner represent one of the symbol of the state. What are the flavors in a, in a spolatino? What are we looking for? Yeah. Wine has a very intense nose, very aromatic, very tropical sometimes. So tropical fruit rather than flower. It's especially when it's young. And then, with the time, it change a lot and evolves in a much more complex, fluid that becomes, goes to a yellow flowers, and, honey, and, some specific tourbillonos Paladino, maybe if it passing wood goes to a truffle, not very, very interesting. Do you like truffles? I love truffles. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a big smile on your face when you said it went to this kind of truffle note. I was like, you've gotta be a truffle hound here. We are very It will be honestly. I don't want to say that we make breakfast every day with truffle, but it can happen. Do you have truffle dogs? Do you go hunting truffles? Not me personally do, but I have some friends and sometimes we share this passion together. Yes. It's very fun. So you you like cooking as well, I guess. Yeah. Yes. One of my favorite dish are the Stangotsi that is in our typical pasta. It's a long pasta similar to, but a little bit larger with the truffle full and just salt pepper, little bit of pepper, and a very good extra virgin olive oil. And to drink with that, what is a good, local wine? For local wine, I suggest, a good Okay. And so in your case, you you make a Montifalco as well, don't you? Yes. We also So what is the blend for that? Is it, mainly, segmentino? It's mainly San Giovanni for seventy percent. And then we complete the blend with a fifteen percent of Sacramento and fifteen percent of colorino. That is another of our indigenous grape, very common in, send send the center of Italy, especially in Tuscany and inumbria also. Generally, when you have a sangiovese and you need some color, the colorino is there. And so this is for sure, one of the big characteristics of our, montefalco. Generally, people used to mix international variable in the blend. Our characteristic for the montefi. Also is to use only native grapes. Okay. Just go back to the, the spolatino. What is a good dish with the spolatino, the white one? I'm a big, big fan of truffles. We know that. You know, sometimes it's a dish that is very, very difficult to to pair with food, to pair with wine, are the asparagos. Right. Okay. Try to image scramble eggs with asparagos and is, amazing the Trebiano's Puertoino. If you are approaching a Trebiano's quality in a little bit holder. Maybe as polite, you know, four, five years old, I can suggest also some, white meat, like, pork fillet. You can understand, talked. We have not a big tradition in seafood for sure. Trebios Boledino is perfect with fish, but we are very, very lucky because it's, white wine that is also perfect with our umbrian kind of food that, is mostly made of, also peak for sure, but also a lot of, legumes, vegetables, a lot of dishes that pair very, very well with, the Tribune We also make a selection of, the sport Latino. It's a single vineyard called Del Posto. Del Posto is, project born in, two thousand and fifteen for, should be reason. One, because it was our tent anniversary, from our first production of Puertoino. And second, because two thousand and fifteen, it was really an incredible vintage. So it was a perfect occasion to start to make this selection. The name in Del Posto comes from the origin of the name Trebiano because the name Trebiano from the Latin trebulanum means wine from the place that in Italian is vino del posto. Actually, you can find Trebiano from everywhere. This is the reason why you can have Treviano from Tuscany for a brusso from Lugana and Espino also because it represented in the past the vino del posto, vino del logo. And so the idea to call it del posto it's a this is the reason why we call it Del Posto because it's the it's the meaning of the name Trebiano. And, a perfect pairing with the this kind of Trebiano that I'm trying to explain you in few in few words is much more complex and fat and, aromatic can be a good result with, fish. Like shellfish and, mixed seafood platter. Exactly. With a risotto. Okay. With a risotto. Yes. Yes. That's you come up with some quite healthy dishes, is, no meat in that. So it's Sacramento in the vineyard. Obviously, in the wine area, it seems like a very robust, tonic, strong, sturdy grape variety. What what about, Sacramento the vineyard. Is it very disease prone, very disease resistant, easy to work, easy to prove? Well, I think in a a few permit me to pass me this word, it's a great bastard, but very bastard grape from the vineyards to the cellar. It's very, very vigorous. It's incredible to work in the vineyards. We need at least, three times, more, labor in the vineyards to clean very well the area of the of the grapes. Because it's a very, very vigorous plants. So what you're saying is, the fiminoly, the water shoots are around the plant. So you're going in in spring, taking some leaves out so that there's less shade around the bunches. There's less risk of disease. Exactly. Also, for a, for an important a reason because the grape is ready, very, very late. So compared to the San Joese, for example, that in the middle of September, it's ready to be picked. For the Sacramento, we have to arrive to the end of October in one of the most dangerous period in terms of risk of, botrytis and, all the stuff. And so that period, is the period of the rain. It's the period of the fog. And so the humidity is there. And so we have to open spaces for for the wind to dry the grapes. And this is, one of the big difficulties in the Venus. The second is that the production is never to be considered that the max one to the permitted from the appolation, from the consortium, it's very, very difficult to arrive to to to reach because it's, for the Sacramento. When it's generous, we can to six tons per hectare of grape that is very, very limited, but not for an hour personal, shoes. But because that's about half what a boarder, Vineyard will give. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Okay. And, in terms of, vigner also is, a grape, very sensitive. Okay. So the risk of, mold is very high. So we have to be very, very careful. But we are also lucky because the skin is very, very strong. Okay? It's also very nice to make the passito that is, the traditional version of the Sacramento. Do you make a passita? Not every year in a very, very limited quantity? To the passita, you're picking the grapes as whole bunches by hand. And then what happens to make a passito? When you pick the grape, first of all, you have to make, like a selection because you have to choose that the the best bunch is the best fruit. Generally, we call that grapes open grapes. They lose punches. Yes. And then, after picking the grape, we bring them to the cellar in a very big room with big windows that helps the wind to circulate. Airflow. Yes. And, we have to wait that the the the grapes become enough dry to have a good, sugar concentration. So so they shrivel, lose their water. Exactly. And the the video is about between forty and sixty days. Before, doing the, the arborist. And then you press. Then we press, and we make the fermentation that some generally is very difficult, very difficult fermentation because the skins are, very stressed because after this a very long period, you wish to lose the naturalist in the skin. But at the end, the wine is very, very magic. So what do you drink that with? The traditional pairing is with the roasted lamb. So very particular because it may just sweet wine with the red meat is strange, but we are talking about a red sweet wine, very rich in tannins, generally never too sweet. And the lamb is quite sweet meat, very aromatic, and especially if you work it, and you cook it with a lot of, oil and fat and spicy, rosemary, thyme, it can be very, very nice. You like cooking, don't you? I like, quite a lot. Yes, for sure. Is a region when you learn to cook, from when you are a kid and the same is, also that you start to smell the wine from when you are a a baby So it's impossible for us to don't love the Sacramento. Even if, it's not so easy to grow Sacramento and working working in, in the cellar, we are very, very happy because, at the end of the job, the satisfaction is very, very big. So I know you said it was a very difficult grape to work with, but this area has had a boom of people wanting to invest, wanting to buy vineyards here, wanting to make Sacramento. So what is the attraction you've talked about the work, the incredible work that goes into making a Sacramento. It's difficult in the vineyard, produced all these water shoots. You have to do a lot of hand work. It's a difficult grape to ferment, and it's probably a difficult grape to sell as well. Why do people want to come? Is a challenge. Do do people see a second nineteen as a challenge, or do they love? Sorry. What do they love? The center of Italy, the green heart of Italy, beautiful landscape, a lot of history. I think it's, both the reason for sure. It's, we can consider it a challenge, but, nobody will make an investment like this if they don't believe a lot in the potential of the grape. And I think the potential is very big. We are talking about, a wine that has only twenty five years of, the OCG population that is nothing in this world. And if I think that mostly of the production, about seventy percent of the production is made with Venus very young, less than twenty years old, and people like the wine now, what can happens in the next twenty thirty years when finally the grapes start to be more mature and older. We are even talking about one of the most stunning grape, most stunning grape of the world, and it's impossible to match, good wine without good grapes. This is maybe a big reason. Second reason, I think, is the Hannah tourism that works around the Sacramento. So when we sell a bottle of Sacramento, we don't sell only a wine, but we sell an entire region, very rich in hard culture, food, and all the everything it's, around us. So I think it's a good investment because umbria now, is considered from everybody the new Tuscany This is the beauty of the region. This is why people come here and say, but it's so nice. It's so cool. It's very quiet. People is lovely. The landscape is fantastic. Food is great. And wine is pay the wine pairing is incredible. And the cost of the life. I think it's it's very, very good. So when are when are you starting your job with the Umberan Terrace board? When does that start? Elisandro, Many. Thank you very much for coming in today. And, sharing your, not only your passion, but your humor as well. You've a fantastic interview. You've made me laugh, many times. But, obviously, you really are a very, professional young man. You really know what you're doing. And you're a fantastic ambassador for your winery and also for the region where your enthusiasm is infectious. Thank you. As you said, it'd come and see me in the in the winery, and, I kind of almost feel sorry for the for the Sacramento Graeme speaking your winery because you you're so tougher. Try me mad, but, I know that you love them really. So, you do. 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