Ep. 116 Monty Waldin interviews Filippo Antonelli (Antonelli San Marco Winery) | Discover Italian Regions: Umbria

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. This is the Italian wine podcast. It's Monty Warden. My guest today is Felipo Antonelli. Felipo is the owner of the Antonelli san marco winery in the Montefalco region ofumbria in Italy. Welcome Felipo. Thank you. Welcome. So give me a little bit about your family history, which generation are you the eighty fifth generation or first generation? No. Just the fourth generation. The fourth. The fourth generation, but actually, the first one first generation directly involved in winemaking. So you and you're the fourth generation. So what what were the previous three generations doing? Is a it was a family of lawyers. I've interrupted five generation of lawyers and decided to be a farmer. Did your parents try and make you become a lawyer? My father was hoping, was becoming a lawyer, but at the end, who was happy, I was taking care of this estate that everybody was really in love of this estate, all the generation. My great grandfather bought it. My family is originally from Spoleto. Poleto is, inumbria is one of the most important town inumbria, especially at the time of the Vatican State before the the Mediterranean Kingdom. It was even more important than Peru and is an historical town, place of where the longer part they settle and the last place where the longer part stayed. We we always like to get the longer part in into an interview on the Italian wine podcast. We love we love the longer parts. Yeah. So we all Ottawa state was owned by longer parts dukes. So when were they around the longer boats? This was, eleventh century, twelfth century, and then the estate belonged for about six centuries to the Bishop of Spolato. Also, the house, our house was a kind of summer residents of the bishop. And then when they make the Italian kingdom, they took away from the pope, all this estate, and they sold out. And the pope used to actually communicate people buying his properties. So we had some troubles with the church. So your excommunicators? No. Actually, there was also at the time, an Italian way to manage the There's always this annual way. Okay. Glad to see that. That hasn't changed. Okay. So that's the history. So how did you become involved? And when did you how old were you when you took over? I decided to study agriculture at the university in Peru. So Are you, what, twenty years old, eighteen? Or I am, fifty, eighty years old. So I finished this high school in nineteen seventy nine and went to the university, took a degree in agriculture, not specialize in winemaking. So I studied about everything in agriculture, and then, I made my military service. It was obliged at the time to the military service. So I started in nineteen eighty five to work at the estate. And so it's more than thirty years. What's changed since then? When you took over how big was the estate, has it stayed the same size? No. Now it's bigger, but so it was one hundred and sixty actors. Now it's one hundred and ninety, but what is mostly changes that the vineyards at that time, there were just six actors. Now there are about fifty actors. So what other crops did you grow at the time when you took over? There were already olive trees, groves, and we still have olive trees. And then at that time, there were also cows, the canina race, the white cow, to do the fiorentina steak, but now we don't have anymore. But now we have pigs. We are growing some pigs for prosciutto. For prosciutto and salami and all this stuff. Is that just for the family, or do you do you sell the pig? No. We also sell, but it's just fifty pigs, eating acorns. They're free around the wood. And then we cultivate some chickpeas and spelt that we also use in the kitchen. We have a kitchen where we do cooking classes and tasting wine pairings, all this stuff. We have an ugly tourism with six apartments, also for wine tourism. So you really got the complete package, haven't you? You can stay there. I like to not just to cultivate vines. I like the state to be alive, also with some animals and chain turning, also production of the estate is organic certified since twenty twelve. And so So that's for everything that's for the pigs. Everything is organic. Was it difficult? At getting organic. I mean, I know you were quite organic beforehand, weren't you? So We were almost, but not it's not was not the same. So it's it's difficult. One is a bigger state. It's not as easy if he is a smaller state, but we managed. We made some experience, now I think it's everything is much easier. Did your employees like the change, or did they find it more complicated? They were not so happy. Fifty fifty. Yeah. Yeah. Were they afraid of losing their jobs? Are the crazy bosses taking us all down after all the staff? No. It's just that it's more tricky to to manage the vineyards because you must have a balance in the vineyards. You don't have, chemicals to spray. So to have safe grapes, you must take more care of the vineyards, so there is more manual work. So how much did your labor cost costing increase? Normally, everyone asks producer, they normally say they have, like, maybe another ten percent extra cost. Yeah. Maybe, you know, Sacramento has has a lot of leaves, and a lot of vegas. So, yeah, it's it's vigorous. So, you know, it's much more tricky than San Jose or Cabernet sauvignon or Merlo. So there is but then when you find the balance, it goes bad every year because then we don't need to cut to doing green pruning. So in in a long time, I think it won't be so tough. It's a lot of bureaucracy. Of course, a lot of people, piece of papers to to write. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting you talk about the vigor of the vines that with organic practices, once the The fertilizer, the salt fertilizers, the soluble fertilizers have have sort of disappeared. The vine vigor becomes less problematic and then as much easier as you say it, you can prune more quickly. You have less work to do trimming shoots. Have you seen a difference in the phenolic ripeness of the grapes because of that. This is tough to find because, you know, every year there are so many factors that change, know that, it's it's tough to tell if it's due to being organic it or not. And some Is fermentation a bit easier? Firmmentation? It's easy. Yes. Problem is the problem we are having in these last years is that we have too much, sugar, too much alcohol. So this is we are trying to manage. Also, because reducing too much the production. I think we overdid in the past to reduce too much. On the other side, you have too much alcohol. We have a very good standard every year. Maybe in the past, It was one year good, one year bad, but also There's more consistent now. You said that now it's more consistent, but the alcohol is is one of the problems. Not only due to the global warming, but also because the the density of vines per hectare is higher than in the past, and the production is lower. So they concentrate all this, the the energy on few grapes. Are you using any cover crops sowing things between the row, plants between the row? Yes. We do. Some. So, basically. What do you want do you what are you using? Using cereal crops like barley. Depends on the on the vineyards. If there is a lot of, if it is weak vineyard, do we give more, how do you say legumes? So ninety. Yeah. So no. So, no. So, you feel that if it is with a lot of, energy, the vineyard. So it's not the same recipe. So you're really tailoring your cover crop regime, according to the Yeah. This is an interesting point to me that leads you to get better grapes in terms of quality because you take care of differently of every single vineyard. I have four kids. I say it's not every kid needs the same. One kid needs, an extra pullover. One kid needs to eat a little bit more. And so if you go with chemicals, you give the same to all the kids all. Is it more fun when the when you're doing the harvest, are you really seeing a much bigger difference now in in terms of flavor profile from each plot? Because you're farming them individually. Are you really picking that up in the wine? Yeah. Was it is it more fun though now? It's more fun. And it's more stress. It's interesting. Yeah. And it's it's good to have different expression of the of the grapes. What about the, in terms of, we always think about Sacramento as a very tannic grape. Have you found it easier the extractability of tannin now that you've gone gonna get it? Do you have to do less pumping over less maceration to extract the same amount of polyphenols as you work for? Actually, our program is opposite. We don't want to over extract because second hand has so much structure that historically our idea of wine of Sargrentina is not too over extracted. So the and the the the polyphenols are released very quickly because they are mostly in the skins, not in the seeds. And so in the first days, they are immediately released. The point is, and what we are doing now is doing longer and longer skin contact even two, three months is because doing this, you get more balance and more You get smoother tannins? Yeah. Smooth tannins. And the point is the real different now is that we harvest when tasting the the skins they are ripe. And so is the ripeness of the tannins is really different now. So you're picking on on ripeness of of tannin rather than just on sugar levels? Yeah. Sure. We don't look very much to sugar or c d t now much more to the tannin So you obviously done a lot of work in the vineyard. If I if I gave you a magic wand, like I was a magician, I said, I'll give you one extra thing for your vineyard. What would it be? Would it be more more workers? Would it be a new type of machinery? Or changing some of your soil type, what would you do if I gave you a magic wish? I would say it's what we are doing now. We have just enlarged the estate because we were looking for some east exposition. Cooler cooler science. Yeah. Because we have mostly south and west, which were supposed to be the best. But now with the global warming, some years, they are very good, but some years. That's why now we have just bought a new estate in the mountain, very steep. How far? And it's four fifty meters, but it's very steep and east facing. So you get the sun in the morning, and we we will make a very, I think, elegant segment. We have already experienced this break, and we like very much their exposition. So what's the altitude of the main vineyard? Between three hundred and four hundred. Our highest is four hundred. That's still quite Hi though, isn't it? Yeah. But we are we are on the top of the hill. So very, very sunny spot. So what about your main apart from Sacramento, what do you make? The biggest production is Montefarcosa, which is a blend mostly San Jose and Sanrentino. And then we do, but now what we are focused in and very enthusiastic on is Trebiano Espobiano is not a clone of the big family of Tribune. It's a specific grape variety, very typical of this area, sp from spoleto, which was almost disappeared because Grequito took the place of Trebiano's Palatina, and now there is a renaissance for this grape, and it's very interesting grape, and we are with a very potential of aging, lung potential aging. And so we are working a lot on Trebils, Portino. We are doing a regular Trebils for men and in large oak barrels of Ostrinoke. And now we will do a single vineyard with a very long skin contact in ceramic. Bets. So will that be like an orange one? It's on the family, but it's it's not oxidized because we keep also the CO2 from the fermentation. We don't we we made a eight month skin contact. So it's very long until June. But the wine is not at all, on oxidize. What are the main flavors in that then from the Espolitino, Trevino's Pollitino is particular because I have bought some, you can get both on the nose and on the taste, on the palate, some yellow fruit, like tropical, and some green fruit for freshness. A nice combination. Yes. When you leave it on the skins for so long in the ceramic containers, is there not a risk of, getting a wine with very low acidity? It's to be honest quality in a quite an acidic grain? It is. It is. That's a good acidity. So there is not this problem. We were worried about being orange oxidized, but one is is clean as because I like this, the orange wine, the natural wine, but there must be clean without being natural, organic, orange doesn't mean that the wine must taste badly or smell badly to me. Yeah. I'm a hundred percent in agreement. Any other news? Any other plans? Plans to resist new plan on Tribuneiano's policy seen on production of, cold cuts, which is quite recent. So when you talk about that, that's the those are the pigs, right? Yes. When you say they live in the forest, what kind of trees are in the forest? Mostly oak. And they're eating the acorns, are they? They eat eating mostly acorns. So the oak is the evergreen oak, just off. No. No. No. It's not the evergreen. It's, it's another oak. It's called rovarella of of farnia. It's not the oak suitable for wood barrels. In Italy, unfortunately, we don't have this kind of, evoke. It's a huge joke. So, and they're completely free or they're like little zones, whether they, where they, you know, they cannot, they have a zone because we mustn't let the wild boars get in. Sometimes they in, but this is forbidden. So what you you fence off different areas do you? We we also move them. We have different places so that the salt can rest, the the grass can grow again, and then we we turn them. And in some periods, at the end, we also feed a little bit with our cereals and legumes, fava beans. Yeah. What's interesting about your estate is, I know you're you've gone organic now, but the poly culture that you have all the different crops plus the presence of the animals and the wilderness, the kind of forest as well. You're using your land, but you're not depleting your land, you're using it and and enhancing it because you presumably have a lot of animal manure for compost and things like that. So it's a very biodiverse and very productive farm that you have. And you don't look like a farmer. You look like a lawyer if I make you retire. I'm I'm selling my house I need to convey it to this. I'm gonna call you and you're gonna arrive and you're gonna do all the legal documentation. I'm not gonna talk pigs and, and compost and things like that with you. So I mean, was it were you were you always like that as a kid? Were you very I used to spend Tamba here beginning of October because the school was starting very late at that time. So, harvesting the grapes also here. And during these people, this period, I was really happy here. So I decided at the end of the high school to become my farm. And it's good to have this mix. But this mix is also an heritage to the structure of the farms here. So it was this kind of contract called Medzadria, which was means crop sharing with the farmers. So the farmers, they needed some olive oil, some cows, some wheat to do bread or pasta and some wine to be happy. And so that's why the estate was divided, and we kept this diversity. And it's also good because you can choose the best places for the vineyard. And not just Venus everywhere. Yeah. The best place for each crop. So the pigs are in the forest, the vineyards are on the on the sunny sides. Yeah. Doing this is also easy to be organic because if the vineyards are in the bottom of the valley, it's a bit more risky and tough to have safe grapes. Yeah. I remember trying your wine, I think, not too long ago. I didn't know about your poly cultural, how the actual estate was was set up, but your wines really do taste different, particularly the everyone talks about second nineteen of being very tannic. But your wines aren't, and I'm sure that's to do with the fact that you've got this, you've got a mentality where you have biodiversity and you really know what you're doing with all the different parts of your estate. It really comes through in your wine. This is good. You know, and I think having met you last time, I thought, the whole issue about Seguarantino is, oh, it's Tannic and everyone's, oh, it's Tannic. We don't know what to do. It's Tannic. It's also true that in general, I say, in in in the area, the Seguins, they are all young. Because we had this boom at the end of the nineties, beginning of two thousand. So everybody arrived here and planted. And then it takes fifteen years, and then we released the wire after five years. So I believe that in general, the next vintages of cigarette, you know, they will be more and more approachable and, with some balance. Also, the the farmers, the winemakers, they know more and more. So it takes time. Yeah. So you want an areas that don't grow very fast. Sagrentina is a historical area. We have a long tradition since the Roman time, fifteen hundred, blah, blah, blah. But in terms of, quality is a very young area as most of the Italian areas except Pitteman, because it's close to France. Let's go to France. We didn't say it was one part of France, but savoy, we're not gonna talk about that. Okay. No, that's very optimistic. And I think what you said is is right that Sacramento is entering, phase of less experimentation and more maturity. People are, are more sure of what doing. It's not an easy grape to work with. You've obviously got a little bit more experience than most, Felipo Antonelli from the Antonelli San Marco winery. If you are inumbria and you have one winery to visit, this would be the winery that I would recommend anybody go and visit because there's lots to see and, just the different smells, all the different crops, visually. It's a beautiful estate. And I think you may also fantastic wine that are different to many of the other, second and tiny. Is that right, second and tiny second here? Yes. So, Antoneti San Marco, I'm now gonna work as your publicity manager, and, you can give me a six figure salary. Anyway, for people. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you. And I hope we get you back on the podcast. So maybe we will do a podcast on location and go and, chase those pigs until the world border to disappear when we're recording. Good. How about now? Thanks for you. Thanks a lot for you. Thanks a lot, buddy. Follow Italian wine podcast on Facebook and Instagram.