Ep. 118 Monty Waldin interviews Liu Pambuffetti (Scacciadiavoli Winery) | Discover Italian Regions: Umbria

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast. My name is Montewood. My guest today is Yu Bambuverte. Yu's family winery is called Scaccia Diavoli and it's in the Multifalco region of Umbria. Welcome you Thank you. First of all, I've gotta ask you about your name as not doesn't sound very Italian. Yes. My name, Leo, came from, a lily corpora from, Toronto made by Puccini. So, actually, he's a Chinese Italianized name. Okay. Why did your father and mom choose, you? The story is not because he love opera, but because when he was four years old, in Montefalco, there was a young lady that was called Lou and he remembers this lady, like, his first love when he was a child. So I'm the first daughter, and that's why I'm called the Liu. The first love. Okay. Now, the second Sentiment father. Okay. The second second question. Scatcha Diaboli. Oh, sorry. Scatcha, do you have an art to do the introduction again? Yeah. Scatcha Diaboli. What does that mean? So Scatcha Diaboli is a verb that means chase away the the Chaseaway. Diavoli means devils. So Scatcha Deavoli is a name of a exorcist that lived near the state long long time ago because the state is very old. He's from eighteen eighty four, and in that area, there was these famous actresses that use wine to save people possessed by the devil. That's why the name of the winery. How was he paid? If I, you know, if I met this guy, I said, hey, listen, I think I've got a devil in my house. Can you exercise it? How would I have paid him? Would it have been with wine or with food or money? Or I think he did, like, he was a priest. So for him, I think it was very important to have people not possessed by the devil around him. So I I don't probably with agriculture food, some salami or prosciutto will be very good to think. Was he quite a large priest? Was he quite a big guy or not? Don't know because it's something that we can, read in documents very old. And actually, all this area now is called, where the one area is. The village close to the one area is called Scatcha Diavoli. So it's something that, really date long long time ago. I imagine this priest a very large. Yeah. I think he was, I think he was quite he sounds like he was a clever guy. He kind of invented this devil story so that he got a lot of free wine and free food. Yeah. Not that I'm being skipped about religion. Anyway, okay. So the winery was dates from eighteen eighty four. When did your father take over? Actually, my great grandfather take over in nineteen fifty four after the war because, he was a merchant of food. So he had enough money at seventy when he was seventy years old to buy the winery. Of course after the war, the winery was quite cheap. So he could afford to buy it. Okay. Was he from the region? He was from Montifarco. So all my family is from a Montefarco. So at that time in Montefalco, were there many vineyards or not? Yeah. The agriculture was different. There was a lot of farmers, not too many wineries, like, the concept of wine that we have now. But let's say that, everybody produced wine for the house for selling to the neighbors and the, like, some clients, around. How did Montefalco suddenly become a boom region? What changed? And when when did it transfer from being a local Yeah. Wine that was drunk between the villages and traded locally to an international provider? I think even if the story of Argentina is very long, but the boom is more recent since the 70s. When, some producers, one was but also other producers tried to make a Argentina just with Sagrentino grape, in the driveway. So, they had a wine very different that, they could, promote and explain in a different way. And from that, Sanrentino started to became more and more known. Since the nineties when yet, a big, boom. It's from the nineties that is recognized, at the international level. How would you describe your start of Sacramento? Your modernist, traditionalist? Somewhere in the middle. I think we are some, some in the middle because first of all, we don't want to change the personality of Sanrentino. So we are not processing Sanrentino in a very, very software. Even if, I don't think very, very soft is a good word for Sacramento. But, so we try to keep the turning and the structure of Argentina because we think his his personality. In the same time, we age a minimum of five yards. We put in the market minimum after five yards because we need the development of Sanrentino We use Oc, the small, and big for two years at least, and, one year at least in the bottle, and we are sure that when we said Sacramento, it start to be softer. But, of course, with the characteristic of Argentina. Okay. So whereabouts is the vineyard in, the Sacramento, no area? We have a vineyard. A part is older. A part is, more recent. So you have vineyards in two places? No. No. No. It's all in the same area, but we planted more in the nineties. So we have some vineyard before the nineties and some vineyard after the nineties. So the oldest vineyard are made with palmeta umbra, which is a particular shape made by two level of this kind of vineyard produce around the twenty, twenty five grapes per plant. Twenty five bunches. Banches. So, actually, it's quite productive, but because these are old vineyard and, the grapes are not very, very compact. So we can have a very, very good, grape from that part. The rest, the more recent part is, cordonis peronato. So Every plant is, less productive. We have a mass selection because the selection here arrived very late. So is there a big difference between the mass selection, so from older vines in in terms of the size of the grapes or how they taste compared to the new clonal selections? Yes. We find the difference. Yes. What what are the differences? It's a less standardized. So we have some plants, very productive, some plants a little bit less, you know. They have more genetic diversity. Yes. There is more diversity. Is there a difference in ripening though? Is it quite hard with these older vineyards? You say with a with mass selection where you maybe have two vines together and one is ripe and one isn't quite so ripe. Do you selectively pick? Yes. Because we do with Argentina, we do five wines, choose are things made with Sanrentino grape, one white one rosette. We do Sanrentino dry, Sanrentino, pacito, so this with Sanrentino. And, we do montefi colosso, which has a part of Argentina. So because of that, we can pick the grape in different moment according with the wine we have to do. So this is interesting because we can pass three times usually or select something more adapted for the we want to do. So you say you can go to the same vineyard three times and say the first picking would be for sparkling. Yes. The second for passito and the third for Sanrentino dry. So the second one for passito. Yes. So you pick them and then you dry the grapes. Yes. So the sparkling, we pick around the August and of August for, with Argentina, we pick, mid September. And for, Sacramento, you know, dry, we pick end of October in a regular vintage. Twenty seventeen, we finished the the nine of October because he was very in advance everything. Tell me about how you make the sparkling Sacramento. You basically make a white sparkling wine from a very tonic red grape. How does that work? So the white sparkling is made with Argentina eighty five percent and the chardonnay fifteen percent. We age just seven yards So it's a interesting, product because we can really recognize the Sagrantin, of course, not from the collar. We pick the grip very early when the grip change color from green to red. So it's not really mature. The city is very high and, we pick the grape by end. Of course, we, put in the press, and we press very, very quickly and very soft trim. So we extract just the clear juice. We blend with the chardonnay. We ferment and then usually in spring, we add the sugar and the yeast. We bottle, and we keep in the bottle seven years before two days gourd So seven years on on east. On east. Yes. It's interesting because you can see that it's totally different from any other sparkling. What makes it different? First, the the taste. You know, it's a special taste. The structure is unbelievable. The alcohol usually is around thirteen. So it's more structured. For for sure it's for food, yeah, for gastronomy. So what would be a good dish with your sparkling Sacramento? We like we, cheeses are very good with our sparkling. Of course, my family imports back last year's generation. Really? Yeah. To go to another business. Oh, yes. The other business is the import of, Bakala from, Iceland and Norway. So that's salt cod. Yes. Salt cod or dried cod that is called the Stocafiso. So with Bakala is great. Of course. Did you develop sparkling wine because of your fish business. Also. Was that really? No. Actually, the bet was that my father think that after the prosseco, people will drink local sparkling. It didn't happen yet but we think that, it will happen in the future. Do you have like a bar in your, do you have a when tourists come to your wine, or is there any way where they can drink the sparkling wine, or do they just buy it and and take it and drink it at home? No. No. No. We make tasting of all our wines. So it's possible to taste in our winery. And can they try the salt cod with it as well? Yes. Yes. We've proposed very often. Yes. Here in Numbra, we still eat very often. And So let's go on to that was the sparkling. Do you make a sparkling rose as well? Yes. The sparkling rose is made with the Sabantino one hundred percent. So how do you do that given that Sacramento has got a lot of color? How do you make a sparkling wine from Sacramentoantino that it that doesn't have too much of a pink color? The difference between the white and the rosette is that the rosette is macerated the six hours in the press. In the six hours, we extract this light pink color because I was telling before the grip are not mature. So there is not so much exchange between the skin and the mask. So that's the spumante brute rosé. Do you know what you call it rosé? Not rosato? Yeah. Roset. Oh, okay. A little bit of french vacation there. Interesting. I studied in bordeaux, so Did you? Yeah. Really? What wine making? Yes. When were you doing that then? Two thousand and six. So you've got a degree in in wine making and a degree in stockfish and sort of Not on stockfish. My my brother and sister, David. So did you learn in Bordeaux that would help you? Obviously, we think of Bordeaux, the classic Bordeaux is is a wine that can age a long time. It can be quite panicked when it's young. And when we think of Sagrantino, we can think of a similar a similar thing. What did you learn from Bordeaux that's helped you and your family with the Sagrantino reds in Bordeaux why I, you know, for sure, it's a different wire region. Sacramento is another word comparing with, Merlo or Cabernet from, but I learned how to do a lot of experiment because I was working in a one area of, owned by Denedo Bordeaux, which was, professor of the university. And, so it was very, very involved in experiments, and, you know, trying a new new approach. So I really loved to be there because he really teach me a lot. So he one of his specialties was skin contact, skin contact wipes to extract aromas. Yeah. He was, actually was very, very specialist on, the white, bordeaux, and the soterna. They have, Chateau de cuisine, Chateau de la I don't care. So he was experimenting a lot in the in the white reduction way more than an oxidative way. So protecting the virtues or the wine from any kind of oxidation to, yeah, for the aroma expression. So does that influence you at all in your white wines? Yes. Yes. Our white wines are made with mainly graceto or with one, which is graceto one hundred percent. So this is a fresh fruity white wine. Just, age four months is still still. So Do do you do skin contact with that as well? No. With this, no. So that's just press picked? Yes. Press. Do you pick it? Do you make several pickings for the croquette like a slightly earlier one, a middle one, and a later one or not? No. For the process is easier. Then we do Montefer Cobianco, which is another doc. In this case, we use a fifty percent of a Trebiano's Palatino, which is a local variety that very special, even if it's called the Trebiano, it's not a Trebiano family. And, we have also Brechetto and chardonnay on this wine. So what, in terms of that wine, you know, everybody pretty much knows what chardonnay tastes like, you know, melon yellow fruit that I think. What would the Trebiano spolatino bring and what would the criceto bring to that particular white wine? So Trebiano spolatino, the aromas are very complex. Someone say that there is the riesling of umbria because the aromas are, not really fruity, but, more, air ball, you know. Are there are there any chemical compounds in that? Cause you see, as a scientist, you can't give us the chemical compounds in the Trebiano Spolitino. What is the scientific name for the flavors? Yeah. In Trebiano's Palatino, actually, we the DOC changed in two thousand sixteen. And, before, the DOC of Montefarcobianco, so in two thousand fifteen, was, gregeto fifty percent, twenty percent. So, till fifteen, we didn't use Trebiano's Palatino. It's the just the last wine, the two thousand sixteen that has Tribune's Pollatino, fifty percent Was that to try and create the wine with a bit more personality? Yes. The idea of consortium was to have wines with more personalities, more local. So it's a kind of a new discovery of of a all the old grape that was almost forbidden. So we have, I think we have to do a lot of way on this grape. We are just at the beginning to study more of this grape to know more information about this grip. Is the spolatina easy to grow? Yeah. It will grow forever in the in the valley because, Montefarco, you know, is we can see from Montefarco, the South umbrian Valley. This valley was a old lake. So the origin of this area is a lake that was dried. Dried. And, We dried up. It was a it was a former lake bed. Yeah. So, actually, all around here actually is clay soil with a little bit of sand from the lake. Very, very small amount of limestone because the origin was not the sea but the lake. So Tribianos Palatino was grown mainly on the flat. The vines were very big, and the old style was marriage vineyard, means the Tribranos Palatino attached with a tree. Usually, I don't know the name English, almost, or achiro. So, basically, the vines were growing up trees. Yes. So, this is, the old style. It's not very difficult, but the characteristic of Trebiano is that the right after Sacramento. Even later ripening than Sacramento. So November. Segment. So that's almost impossible, isn't it? Because Sacramento is probably the latest ripening grape in red, white grape in Italy anyway. Yeah. So So is it quite disease resistant than the spolatino? Yeah. Yeah. You see this is a resistance. Sanrentino is very sensitive to mildio peronos pera. So tell me, Milgin. And the Palatino is quite resistant, you know, but yet that, like a strong taste, a big acidity, you know, was not a fruity wine. So you said it was herbal. I mean, when you say herbal, is it like peppery? Is it, spicy? Yeah. It is spicy. It's like a mediterranean herbs. I think we have a lot of, future for this wine, for this grape, but we need to, have more, studies and information because it's something that we rediscover the really, recently. So let's go off to, the red wines, the Sacramento. So you make, obviously, several wines. You make a multifal Corosso. Yeah. This is our biggest production. Yeah. So tell me about the, multifal Coros. So that doesn't have to be one hundred percent Sacramento does it? None. Absolutely. There is a big authority to have a mainly sangiovese grape, from sixty to seventy. And, till two thousand fifteen, we, the, we changed the shipping area also of Montefa Corosso in sixteen. Like for Montefarcobianco. So before the sixteen, we should have from sixty to seventy of San Jose from ten to fifteen of, Sacramento, the rest was free. And we we had, sixteen percent sangiovese, twenty five merlot, fifteen Sacramento. This kind of wine, I think is very, very drinkable. It's very easy to combine with food. So we produce a lot of Monteharkozy because our public love it. Good cash flow. Yes. Exactly. And, now in sixteen, the consortium changed the shipping on it, so we can have till eighty of and until twenty five of Argentina. So the concept is the same with Montefercobianco, push more the local variety. So, basically, getting rid of the French varieties. Slowly. Yes. How do you feel about that having given the fact that you studied in Bordeaux? Do you think that's a good idea? Yeah. For sure, I spent a very, very beautiful years over there because, in Bordeaux, I was surprised that on five people, three words in the wine business. So, you know, for me, it was a very big, fully mentioned on the wine business. Here in Monte Fargo, we are in the middle of Umbre. So, you know, it's not exactly the same, life but, I'm happy because in the last, years, Monte Fargo is really becoming, lively, and with a lot of people arriving, asking for Argentina. So it's the challenge is exactly that. Make it this wine region very modern about, you know, culture and So we always think of Sabarantino as quite a a very tannic, tough wine. And globally, the trend has been to make, or certainly, when you were probably in Bordeau, using a lot of merlot, softening the wines up with, oh, warm extended maceration to make these big wines that we get a hundred points in the wine spectator. So it's interesting that you're in Sacramento, it was taken into the multivaca which is a very tenant rare and you're you're getting rid of the merlot that could make that wine softer. And you're saying, no, we're actually gonna focus more on our Sacramento. How do you make it softer tasting in the winery? What are you doing in the vineyard and the winery to make Sacramento no softer? Yeah. First of all, the maturation of the grape is very, very important. So we try to keep the grape in the vineyard as much as possible. Even if some time is going far in the autumn, but it's important to have the tannin that are sweet. So do you to analyze the grapes to see the extractability of tannin? Do you is that what you're looking for to pick when it's easier to extract? So what how do you do that? And what are you looking for? Yes. When the tannin are really soft, we can bring in the winery. You can harvest. We can harvest. And, But how do you check that though? Are you just going out eating grapes? Yes. Yes. We just eat, try the tannin, you know, personally And, sometime, of course, we lose some, aromas. The alcohol is quite high, of course, but this is very important parameter. Then, depends from the quality of tan and we decide how long the maceration have to be. In fifteen, we did the sixty days of maceration. So sixty days on skins. Yeah. This year, we did the twenty two. Two thousand seventeen. Yeah. Because the tannin were very, very big and the art because a very dry and sunny summer. Perfectly, health, but, with tannin, yes, quite a rough. So we need to adapt to the extraction of toning. And this is really very important. So how long was it on skins in two thousand seventeen? Twenty two days. Right. That's very short, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. The average is thirty days. What were the what were the pips like in twenty seventeen? No. They can mature. They became brownish, but, you can see really the taste and also the skin were tonic. Were they thick? Yeah. In the seventeen. So just not the seeds, but also the skin. Then we ferment in, oak. So it's fermented in, one hundred hectoliter, wooden vats. Wooden vats. To all of your second Tina's fermented in wood. Yes. All. So you're the only winery that does that? Know. But, for sure, we, we saw that, aromas of fruit reduce a little with that, but in the same time, the wine is much more, soft since the first day because it's better to reduce the turning or make the turning rounder at the beginning than at the end. So you're saying making the turning rounder by fermenting the way that you do rather than trying to use small oak barrels to soften the tanks to polymerize. We we experimented that. It's easier to make a soft wine. If we start at the beginning, then if we pretend to do at the end. So that's kind of almost like a traditional bordeaux. In the old days, the bordeaux's classic, and some of them still do have big wooden vats for fermentation, and then they age just refine the wine in smaller barrels. Is that is that where that idea came from? Your border influence? No. You know, I think, for sure, I saw a lot of, wooden parts in Bordeaux. And then there was a lot with that, but I think it's also because we experimented personally this way. Do you consult to any wineries locally, or do you keep all of your secrets to to your family? No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Have you been asked? That's that's for my family. How have people asked you to to consult No. No. Because, you know, we hear the one where region is very small. Actually never thought about, you know, I it's you are the first to tell me something like that. You know, I didn't think about because, was focus on our family business. So Very diplomatic answer. But people must have seen the results that you get in in. They must know that you've worked in Bordeaux. They must know that you're doing things a little bit differently to how things maybe would. I mean, I I haven't heard of many producers fermenting in big wooden vats in this region. Are you the only one? Really? I'm not sure because Not really. I am not sure. For sure, people is I know that people is experimenting, different maths, like, ceramic, cement, amphora, you know, like everywhere. We are in the middle of hunger, but we are connected with the rest of the world. So we are trying the possibilities. For our experience, we are happy with the wooden bat. And where did you buy them from? Were they from France? Yes. Yes. We all our wood is from France. Yes. And I visited the I I have absolutely no doubt that you did that. So just one final question about the red wine making. Obviously, if you're leaving the wines on skins for quite a long time, presumably when you press, you're not really looking to press very much. No. No. No. Now with the pressed wine, we don't use for a Sanrentino. We we make the umbrella also. We we separate the the press wine and use for something else. So if somebody tastes your wine blind and you read a you read a review of your wine or you could write a review of your wine yourself. Which three words would you be most happy with, most proud of? If somebody said, oh, I tried this, sketcher, Diaboli, red, and it it had this, this, and this. It was a lovely one. What would you like people to say? Elegant, but with a big body and you really feel the potential of aging. That's why if we do a blind tasting with all the vintages, our wines always looks very young. You know, I'm not telling because it's our wine, but because we did this kind of a blind tasting. I don't know if it is because the soil or, the way we produce. But after fifteen, twenty, thirty years, our wines are never dyed. I think it's interesting when we taste when it's younger that people can recognize this, potential. Okay. So what about the main flavors then? The main flavors are, pepper, black pepper is very strong in our Sagrentino blueberry. Some vintages, the freshest vintages. Cool. Yes. Yeah. Yes. We can I find a lot of, like, violets, dried roses, a lot of of? Okay. So you make a what is a passito? How do you make that? Yeah. So we picked the grape. We we lay on the straw. Matts. Matts. We dry for two, three months. According away to the winter, this year was shorter because the grape were already kind of, disintegrated. Because it was a dry year. Because it was a dry year. Twenty seventeen we're talking about. And, we ferment usually in, around the Christmas. Why the name is Sacramento. Segrantino means Sacramento. So because in the past, we had just this wheat version was fermented in Christmas and drink in Easter. That's why Sacramento, Sacramento. So, like a sacred sacrificial wine. Yes. So now we still ferment around the December. We still say Christmas, but actually it's December. And, we don't drink anymore in Easter. Of the next year. Now we drink after five yards, in Easter, of course, but also, you know, there are occasions. Okay. So do you age that one in wood? Yes. So it's the only one that is age in new barrel. How much wine do you get from a bunch of grapes? If you pick say ten bunches of Sacramento for the passito. One point eight. Okay. So how much do you lose? We lose seventy five cents. Okay. So, basically, if you're picking up what could be a liter of grapes in September, you're actually gonna get. If we have a one hundred kilo of Argentina, we have eighteen liters. Which is nothing. Is that your favorite wine? For sure. I like that, this is really the old style of the tradition. So I like to think that in the past, they drink more, something like that. Now I'm more dry, wine, lover, but I mean, I like to drink, with my friends during the holidays, really make that very too much sense for me. Do you have food with the passeto? Yes. Now, we eat chocolate or dry the age of cheese. In the past, it was very typical to eat lamb with passito because lamb is the meat for the Easter. Okay. So it's, sweet meat with sweet wine. This is the traditional on a recipe. Okay. Do you think you'll ever go back to Bordeaux? Would you like if somebody said, look, you can't work for your family winery. Now, you have the freedom to work anywhere, as a winemaker in the world. Where would you go? Would you do it in Bordeaux? Would you go to California? This is a hard question. You have to answer. I don't want to be like, am polite, but, I prefer to stay in Italy. But would you what would you go? Yeah. Yeah. A grub with Sanrentino. For me, the average of tonic is very low. I mean, I need a lot of tonic to to say that one is tonic. So your your idea of hell would be going to be, you know, to for the rest of your life. What about the Roan? Are you do you like Sarah? Yes. Yes. Alexa, in a court routine that, in the past, they may they make a mix between, Sarah and vignette. I tried, but you know, this is, for my family and myself. I try to mix a Sabrantino aggregate, but, you know, I can't tell to the people from the consortium because they will kill me. So it's just one for myself that I do some time like that. Okay. I just wanna say thank you very much, Lou, for coming in. You Pambopetti from the Scache, Diaboli winery in Montefalco. We've been fascinating talking to you particularly about your experiences in Bordeaux and how that has informed your winemaking in Bumbria and, wish you every success. Thank you so much. Bye to everybody. Follow Italian wine podcast on Facebook and Instagram.