Ep. 20 Monty Waldin interviews Ian D'Agata (Vinitaly International Academy 2014-2018) on Aglianico | Introduction to Aglianico, Glera, and Sangiovese

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. Hello. My name is Monte Gordon. I am with Ian Daggator, who's probably the greatest expert on Italian grape varieties in the world. Ian welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Marty. It's great to be here. Right. Let's first of all talk about, the Allianico grape or the Aglianico grape. You have said that this is one of the world's great red grapes. Why did you say that? It's funny you mentioned that. I'm actually the minority, some, very famous colleagues. I really get along with have sort of poked fun at me for that statement. I do, however, believe that Ayaniquo is really one of at least three greatest grapes, and I think it's one of the world's ten greatest grapes. And the reason why I say that is, thirty years of ten tasting a janiko wines, it was clear to me that there was potential. Let me let me just explain that this sort of happening isn't isn't just a one time thing. I had exactly the same sort of belief with Norello Mescalese. And that was easy because I come, my family originates from Sicily. My whole paternal side of the family is from Catania, and we actually own land on, on Aetna Vines, really. That, unfortunately, my my grandfather is excited to sell off. And already then, you could tell that Narello Mosqualeza wines, this is back in the seventies and eighties when nobody talked to Aetna, you could tell it was just a potentially amazing, amazing wine. And exactly the same thing is true of, whereby I tasted so many great wines from Patronoster and Danjalobak in the seventy five and seventy seven, seventy eight vintages that though rustic really showed a lot of potential, So I think the problem is that Ayaniko has not benefited from the plethora of great talented producers that Barolo, that Berberezco that Brunoo have had over the, decades. And that has made it so that Adianneiko, the grape variety is not being able to shine in its wines. But mark my words, Adianneiko gives these wonderful wines that are magically perfumed red roses tobacco darker fruit, depending on where the Atlantic over ID grows, lots of acidity, lots of tannins, and a very noble, noble tasting red wine. That is very age worthy. So, yes, I think that Atlantic was one of the world's ten greatest grapes. So when normal consumers hear wine experts talking about tannin and long live wines, that does tend to put people off because you think a, a, oh, I'm never gonna be able to drink it. And whenever it becomes drinkable and softens out, I'm gonna be a grand a grandparent. So how do you get around that? What do lawmakers have to do to make these wines a little bit more drinkable? That's a really great question because, you know, sometimes us wine geeks tend to get carried away with the age worthiness of wines, and yes, this wine will be great in fifty four years, but nobody has that sort of patience. Nobody has a cellar anymore where to store wines properly. The great thing about Aljanico is, though, that is an age worthy wine, more so than Barolo, and Barbarasco, and even some great brunellos, it is actually a red ear to drink sooner because it has this fruit forward personality, that's especially true of a yamiko in the Tarazi area of Campania, and even more so in the Vultura area, basilicata. These are fresh plummy, red buried, red cherryed wines, right from the start, that are very good to drink already five years after the harvest, but that can age ten, twenty, thirty years. So I think Alyanig was a lot of reasons by which to please people. Again, the main problem is very poor winemaking for the past forty, thirty or forty years. We're in Compania and in Basani. You only had, I don't wanna be negative. Let's say, fifteen to twenty United States that really that really were good at what they were doing. It isn't one of the problems with, allianico, but the fact that it can be drunk fairly early, it's a very juicy kind of pizza wine. Means to be was, well, how how is it possible that a pizza wine could be considered one of Italy's great. But, you know, Monte, for me, pizza wine is the ultimate compliment because if I had to die on a desert island, besides taking Gwyneth paltrow with me, I would take a juicy Minneapolis pizza. Nothing better than, you know, San Marzano or Pomodori del tomatoes with authentic anchovies and the beautiful buffalo mozzarella. And that is, what we call in Italy, Chivo delile de that is god's food. So Since there is nothing better in the world than a well made pizza, hence an Alyaniko, which is a pizza wine, there is no better compliment. So all kidding aside, I think people have to get over the snobbery of wine, whereby you have to have you know, if you read some books, it's it's really a laugh, right, because they're telling you that you have to have this red wine with roast partridge or or roast wood growls. First of all, there aren't any wood growls left. And secondly, nobody eats that stuff. So people eat pizza. People eat pasta. Well, I mean, I have I love pasta with with ragu and pasta with tomato sauce, and I want a wine that goes well with that. And I think at yaniko, you know, clearly not not the really age worthy stuff. But, and every day at yaniko goes marvelously well with that. The three main regions for this particular great, the Alianico are Tarazi, Taborno, and Voltore, which is spelt Vulture as in the bird. Tell me a little bit about those three terawatts and what makes the Alianico of these different terawas taste different. It's actually very simple. It sounds complicated, but it's very simple. Tarazi and Taburno are in the region of Campania, that is where Naples is, that is where the island Zubisca and Capri are also located, Vultore or the vulture is in basilica. A basilica is Italy's smallest region that is located between Italy's hill, which is Bulia, and Italy's toe, which is Calabria because Italy is a boot shaped country. And basilica is tucked in between the heel and the boot. It's the it's the instep. Right. Totally. You know, that's where my mother and Laura's from. It's absolutely very well, bud. This mother in law's. The key thing is that if you think of what Tarazi, Taborno, and Vultore are, their extinct volcanoes. And Alyanik was one of the grapes in this world that loves volcanoes. It's such a great, great variety that it will grow well just about anywhere. That may actually be one of its fall fallings because it gives you a decent way in anywhere, and I think that contributes to its lack of recognition. But when you grow it on on this well mechanic soil, it just reaches a different stratosphere and becomes one of the world's greatest red wines. I would argue that Pino Gree, which is viewed as a Pino Greejo, it's exactly the same grape. It's just different languages, which is viewed as, very simple grape and wine. In reality, when you put it on volcanic soils, like the wrangling in in in ElZAS, it gives you one of the ten greatest white wines in the world. So what is the effect of the the volcanic soil on the Allianico? How does it work? What's the mechanism? There's actually a science to this. And that people are working on it in universities all over Italy. The main thing is that when you grow a yaniko on volcanic soils to make it very simple, you get a very elegant refined wine that is flinty and very mineral and very long aging. It's not as immediately charming as some other obstacles that are grown on richer soils, but it's, remarkably deep and precise and penetrating and great thing about wine is you don't have to be an expert to recognize a great wine. If you give anyone a beginner or wine expert, a very good organic call from a volcanic soil, they all all immediately identify it to be a great wine. So hang on, if you're on a volcano, you're gonna be way above sea level. Right? Six to seven hundred meters, how does Alianico get itself ripe at such altitudes? Well, it really depends on the slope and where the sun's rays hit. So you can actually grow at a thousand meters above sea level, which is about three thousand three hundred feet. To three thousand five hundred feet. And what happens is you're way up there where it's cold and where you would think these poor grapes never ripen. But in fact, because you're up on the slopes at a very steep gradient, the sun rays hit the land in such a way that the grapes actually ripen. It's a longer it's a long longer growing season. So you will be picking grapes, for example, in the Vultre in November, which is unheard of, right, in, for example, in Sicily, unless you're on Aetna, you're going to be picking grapes already in August. But because the hang time is so long on what do you mean by hang time? How long the grapes are allowed or able to resist on the vine, the greatest wines in the world are all issued from grapes that have been allowed to live along on the vine. Because as long as the grape is sitting there on the vine, it's metabolism. That means all its vital activities are still working. It's a bit more complicated than that because now we know that when you take grapes away from the vine when you detach them. Biologic processes are still going on. So it's not as cut and dried as we once thought. But for the most part, if you leave grapes hanging, these grapes are living and they're building new molecules, and they're building new aromas, and they're building new flavors, And ultimately, the wine is much more complex and much more interesting. So Alyaniko can benefit for a very long hang time because it's not picked in August. It's picked in November, and that inherently allows for me to make more complex wine. Of course, you have to know what you're doing. And if you don't know how to make wine, the wine's gonna be horrible. But you're starting off with a potentially really great matter. So one of the things you said about Alyana go in your book is that it dominates its terroir. Why is that a problem? It's a problem because I think it's much easier. Although this could sound geeky, it's much easier for people to understand this wine, is born off this type of soil. And therefore, it's different from this other one that is born on this other soil. A janiqua tends to give you very much a similar wine just about everywhere it is grown. However, if you have a little bit of experience, you pay a little bit of attention, you realize that the janiquas that are born on sand are a little lighter body, they're a little more fragrant, while the ones, for example, also volcanic soils are much deeper, darker flintier. That may not be as evident to everybody out there, but, to people who really aren't aligned, it it is apparent. What about, Taborno in Benavento? You said that's near Naples. Right? So what what makes that place special? Taborno and Tarazi are both near Naples, Tarazi is about an hour and a half from Naples in the Appenine range, right, in the middle of Italy, and near a stranger mountains. Right? Yeah. It's the it's a Dorcelo mountains that runs north to south right through Italy. Tarazi is near the city of Avilino, while as you say That's where my brother lives from. Alright. Well, it's a good place to go visit then. And Taburo, on the other hand, is about two and a half hours away from Naples. By car. And it is a near, as you say, the city of Benavento. And Taborno is another extinct volcano. It's moving towards Pulja. The Allianico there, first of all, it's a different bio type. Now I don't wanna make this too complicated, but in reality, people have planted just about everything everywhere, they wanted to try different things. Because they're Italian. Because they're Italian because it's been allowed, and it's very unfortunate that it was allowed, but that would take us too far. But to make a long story short, the Taburna Yaniq was a different biotype that gives you a higher acid wine, and it gives you a wine that is more marked by tobacco and under brush notes as opposed to the Carazi alyanico companion, which is very nebula like it is marked by, red rose and red cherry notes. The Taborno in fact is locally known as Amaro which is not bitter, but actually that's the dialect word for acid, because the Taburo Yaniko is very high on acid. And the highest city of all at Yaniko wines is one of the things that explains why these wines age so well. Isn't doesn't that also explain why they're actually really nice to drink as well? Because you have some wines that it kinda taste like sticky berries. Absolutely. It's like eating jam, right? And it just really tiring. Is that, people when consumers hear about and people talk about acidity, they always see that as a negative thing. Why isn't it in the case of, Allianica? Oh, no. Absolutely not. I think, you know, you, you have to make a distinction between lines that are going to show well in a tasting, and wines are gonna show well at dinner time. And you've gotta consider that, in some parts of the world, wine was never part of the daily diet, certainly in North America. If anybody remembers back in the seventies and eighties, if you used to go have lunch, in, even a well known restaurant, everybody was sitting there with bottles of Perrier. Today, it might be some filipino or Parna, but back then, it was Perrier. And very few people drank wine. So wine was never part of these cultures, and therefore, these individuals who, ended up getting into wine were taken by very rich jammie wines that really tasted well in a tasting. But when you have to eat with them, they're, they're horrible because they're jammie. They're roasted. They have alcohols to sixteen percent, so they have, they have sugar levels. And, you know, who wants to have, a, an alcoholic, raspberry juice with, with, with his roast loin or his steak, or even his hamburger? Nobody wants that. And I think acidity is key because of course it cleanses your mouth. It's, refreshing. It gets you ready for another morsel. And all these high acid wines that are now becoming much more in fashion are key to having a great time at a meal. In places where you've historically had wine with food, people have always enjoyed these high acid wines, and the sugary bombs were were less, popular. That may have changed in recent times, but for the most part, it's true. Final question, how do you rate Alianico in general in terms of value for money? It's very good if you get the right Alyanico. Again, the problem with Alyanico is you need to get a good producer. I'm not offending anybody if they say that if you buy a barolo, nine times out of ten, and probably even nine point nine times out of ten, you're going to get a very found wine, a neurologically well made wine. You may like it. You may not like it. It's not a matter, but it's going to be a flawless wine. I'm not sure I can say that about Gallianak was made in Italy. I would say that, some of them have flaws. And some of them are less interesting. But if you get the one made by a right producer, and there's there are many. It's a juicy wine. It's a great wine. It's not expensive, and it's a very satisfying wine. Ian, thanks very much for sharing, your love of and knowledge of allianico. You. Thank you very much. Look forward to having a pizza with you and a large glass of it. Me too. At some stage in the future. Thanks, Ian. Follow us at Italian Wine Podcast on Facebook.