Ep. 1959 David Way featuring The Wines of Piemonte | IWP Book Club With Richard Hough

The Italian wine podcast is the community driven platform for Italian winegeeks around the world. Support the show by donating at italian wine podcast dot com. Donate five or more Euros, and we'll send you a copy of our latest book, my Italian Great Geek journal. Absolutely free. To get your free copy of my Italian GreatGeek journal, click support us at italian wine podcast dot com, or wherever you get your pots. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast book club. Each one, we select the great wine book to share. We chat to the author and get your opinions. Stay tuned as we read between the vines with the Italian wine podcast. Hello, and welcome to book club with the Italian wine podcast. This is the fourth episode of a new show focusing on the world of line writing. Each month, we choose a book, chapter the author, listen to some extracts, and explore the story behind the book. We'd really like your ideas and suggestions too. So if there's a wine book or a wine writer that you'd like us to feature, please get in touch. Today's guest is the English writer and researcher David Way. Hi, David. How are you? Very good. Thank you. It's great to be here. Good. Now we're recording this episode during the Italy. In fact, it's the Wednesday afternoon of the Italy. So what has been the highlight for you this time around? Yeah. So since COVID, the organization of the fair has been much better, has more professional feel. It's still mildly chaotic, but in probably in a good today. I think that's part of the attraction. Yeah. The highlights this year have been, of course, I've visited some Pier LODese producers. There are a few here who I didn't know, so I visited them. But also I went, for example, to Ameroni Master Class where we were able to compare the wines of two thousand and nine with the two with the wines of twenty nineteen. That was amazing. I didn't probably need to go to sleep in the afternoon, but, you know, that's life. Yeah. But yeah, that was fantastic. Good. Good. I'm glad you've enjoyed it. I tend to agree that the producers that I spoke to, it sounds like it's been not really busy, but more importantly, really, really productive fair for them as well. We'll come back to the wines of Camonte shortly, David, but first, you're a distinguished wine writer and a researcher, but you initially started your career in the world of academia And I wanted to ask you how you transitioned from the world of academia. What led you to the world of wine and wine writing? Okay. Thank you. Yes. So originally, I studied with Coastal History by Oxford many years ago. And then I also did a theology degree. So I'm obviously, in veteran study. So, yeah, that really formed me in my professional life. Most of which was involved in higher education administration, helping adult learners to both qualify for a profession and get a degree. How did I get from that to the world of wine? Well, I mean, of course, mainly because I loved wine. And actually, when I was learning Italian many years, some years ago, I discovered that people knew nothing about Italian wine. And so I offered to put on a a short course during the Italian learning episodes about the local wines of Southern Tuscany where I happen to be learning Italian. After I'd done that for a few years, I thought well I reorder a qualification in this if I'm gonna go on doing wine education. So I then started on the WSTT platform. So, yeah, really, that was it. So it has both, you know, love of wine itself and also an intellectual engagement with it. Okay. That's interesting. And and we'll come back to your involvement with WSet and your subsequent studies shortly. But just to linger on that and love of wine that you have, was that something that began during your university time, Oxford, or did that come later in life? A little bit. But nothing like some of my friends who seem to spend most of their time in the best restaurants in London Knox. I don't think I I don't think I had the money for that. Right. No, Ria was a bit later, began to buy wine a bit on permer. So inexpensive Roan wines, then moved to Burgundy and and all that. But it was really only it was very strange for someone who has now gone on to focus on Italian wine. I really only got into it seriously. After I had learned Italian. So the language, the love of the language came first, and then moved into beginning to understand something about the amazing complexity of Italian wine. Okay. And with your academic parent, does that shape your approach to wine and to wine writing? So I think the big difference is that I always have a critical eye when somebody speaks to me about wine, and I'm constantly asking myself whether the claims that are being made about wine can be validated in some other way. And there might some scientific basis. There might be continuous experience of growers because as we all know, people make all sorts of claims about wine, some of which are true Yeah. Or may be true. So that that certainly made a huge difference. And the other thing is, and this really did affect the book quite in quite good ways, I hope. I also had the confidence to read the academic literature about wine and particularly the the studies from the University of Torino, which obviously had particular interest in Piamonte. You mentioned that process you began of of wine learning through the way you said. And I know that led you to another significant chapter in your life, which was your struggle if I can put it like that to become a master of wine, and you've written extensively about that experience on your website. So the master of wine program for those who don't know, it's it's probably one of the most challenging, if not the most challenging, when qualification imaginable, a grueling program that can take years to complete. Can you tell us a bit about why you decided to embark on that process Okay. So I was still involved in educational administration in London. And therefore, I looked around and thought, what can I do to learn most about wine while I'm still based in London? So, you know, I can't go and to Finyard in Southern France or whatever. So having, you know, been reasonably successful in the diploma, I thought right. Well, the next option is the Master of wine. And so I thought I'd have a go at that. And I had a, you know, several really fantastic years. I absolutely loved the theory part of it. So I sat at the theory exam in twenty fifteen, I think it was, and passed first time, which which was a fantastic. Most important was the learning, the two years of intense learning before that. And the many trips I went on, I didn't pass tasting, first time. So I then had several more goes at that. And I got quite close to passing that, but I didn't, in the end, I didn't pass it, which is sadly the common experience. It's only about one in ten students actually pass the tasting side. So huge congratulations to all the recent Italian masters of wine. Yeah. I mean, it was a really, I would still say it was a life changing experience because it gave me so much more of a deeper understanding of what happens in a vineyard, what happens in a winery, how that affects the style of the wine, and really it was that which gave me the confidence to embark on a full length book on Piamante. And it probably also got me my job at the WCT Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. But come back to that as well, then Yep. It's clear from your writing, certainly from reading your blog that you viewed the process overall in a very positive way despite not passing that it had to tasting element. What is it in particular about the practical element that is so challenging? I I understand you even employed the services of a sports psychologist. I do. Yes. Yes. To to prepare you for that. So, yeah, I don't think the sports I mean, it was a nice guy, and I'm was a good person, but I think it really made an enormous difference. Right. I think the first thing to say is everyone is different and they have different challenges. And I what I learned was that my tasting tended to deteriorate in situations of high pressure. Yeah. So for example, if I would go and taste with a famous BMW, my taste would always be worse than if I was tasting, you know, with a blind blind with a group of friends at home or whatever, So I think it was partly psychological, but I never got to the bottom of that. I think also, improved dramatically when I learned a method because the trick is not being able to guess what the wine is. The trick is being able to keep enough similar wines in the frame until the very last minute. And at the end, you say, oh, because of this particular thing, I think it is whatever, you know, sauncer Yeah. Whatever you think it is rather than serve New Rock from South Africa. But the important thing is to keep the angle at the frame wide. The the temptation always is to say, oh, I definitely know what this is, bang. Yes. If you're right, you'll get all the marks. If you're wrong, you don't get any marks. Yeah. I think also I had the wrong I think I thought I was gonna genuinely be up to Blindis any wine in the world and tell you something about it about its location or its great variety. Actually, it's a smaller range of wines than you might imagine because they're really focused on the classic. So I think I spend a lot of time rather unproductively studying a wider range instead of focusing on there. Okay. No. That's very interesting. I have to say as well I'm fairly new to the to the wine industry and have a very underdeveloped pallet and really, really struggle with tasting side of things as well. I mean, I I enjoyed the cultured aspect. Mhmm. And I enjoy drinking wine, but I I've got a very poor palette, so I I do struggle in that department. Fact, I was at a a grappa tasting yesterday with Stevie, and it was a blind tasting of grappa Scotch and cognac and I as a trout scot. And I have to confess I I confused the cognac for the scot they were a high quality spirits that reach them over twenty years maturation, but I just I I went with what I had in my gut at it from the very first sip and I think I just had in my head. This is the scotch and I refused a bunch but obviously made a big fool of myself is the only spots within the building. We've all been there. Let's be honest. Yeah. Yeah. So any tips and any tips, practical tips that you could give that that helped you or that might help us with tasting? I think what what you've just mentioned about being confident in your first, impressions is really important, but then going back and checking them. So, you know, let's say you have a, you know, medium red in-depth of color with sour cherry notes and high tannins, immediately gonna think, okay. This is Sanjay. Is it fine? That's a perfectly reasonable guess. But then you need to go back and think, right, okay. Why is it not Nebula? Why is it not another Italian cherry flavored? Right. Great. So it's that it's that checking process, which is really important, and making sure that all the evidence from the glass is actually consistent with your view, because it's so easy to side to jump to a conclusion, particularly if you think you know what the wide is. Use your first impression. It's really, really important. You may well be right. But then check all the other parameters. It's the acidity correct. Is the style of oak likely to be consistent with the place and so on and so forth. Okay. Good. Another positive aspect that came out of this whole process, I understand David was you began what really then as a an AC writer as well. I understand you are numerous racing writing competitions. Can you tell us a bit more about that aspect of your wine writing and some of the exotic places you are you are fortunate enough to visit as a consequence? Yeah. So this was part of being an MW student. So one of the things that the instituted masters of wine does is to get sponsorship from countries, from regions, from large companies. And in order to for the companies to get interest of MW students, of course, could be very powerful in us for them in the future. They run essay competitions. And so they will set an essay title. How can we sell more white bordeaux? Does New Zealand need to develop another great variety along serving your blog? Whatever it is they're interested in So one of the helpful things that MW said at the beginning was you all bring something very particular to this process. You might be a winemaker. You might have extensive knowledge of the world of selling wine, all these things are entirely relevant, and you need to concentrate on all the things that you're not good at yet in order to cover the whole field. So I thought about, well, what am I good at? And of course, having been educated not Oxford. I was good at writing essays because basically in Oxford and I saw in that's what you do. You don't really go to lectures. Basically, you have to write essays every week. So the all these essays came along and I thought, well, at one level, I need to know about all this stuff. So I might as well do the research, write the essay, see what happens. And as you said, I was really fortunate to win a number of prizes, but my crowning glory undoubtedly was, I should I should explain. This is quite funny. My my wife doesn't really enjoy traveling very much. She's used to coming to Italy now. She's probably regards a second home, but she's not really a natural traveler. So I came home one day and said, oh, by the way, there's a essay competition about New Zealand. And she said, oh, no. That would be terrible. So I said, don't worry. Everybody is going to do this. You know, the prize was two weeks in New Zealand. Wow. So I said, you know, don't worry. Everyone else is gonna get there's no way I'm gonna win this thing, right, the essay, etcetera, forgot about it. And then about six months later, got this email, which says, dear David, we're delighted to say you have won the New Zealand Prize. So she and I went on this quite incredible trip over visited eight regions. And curious now to ask, are these competitions open only to masters of wine? Or Only to NW students. Okay. So that's another good incentive to That that is an incentive to do the program. Yes. And also, I think another benefit of doing the program aside from whether you actually complete Absolutely. Yeah. I I learned so much through many of those trips and other ones which they simply put on for students and would you pay a small amount for. Yeah. And and nothing focuses the mind more than actually having to produce something whether it's an article or a chapter or a book or Exactly. That's exactly right. Good. Okay. Before we we turn to the wines of Piedmont, you're you're in Newberg. Just just one final question then about your academic experience. And this is in relation to the job where w said. Yep. Can you tell us a little bit more about the organization. I'm sure most of our listeners are familiar with WSUET and more particularly about your role. Sure. Yeah. Thank you. So WCT, we we are encouraged to call it WSTT, but WSTWET is fine. And that's what it's normally called in Italy. That's that's fine. So it's a fifty plus year old company, which was originally set up to train English wine trade. Then about twenty five years ago, they began to realize there was a huge demand from consumers as well who wanted to just learn more about wine. In fact, that's exactly how I did it. I did it outside before I had a job in the world of wine. It offers four levels of study in wine. It also now offers, sake spirits, which is done for many years. And lastly beer. Yeah. We have just launched our first level one and level two beer. So that's all very exciting. And I'm sure many of our listeners will know they have very professional books for levels one, two, and three, but they never did that for level four. Diploma and wise because it's such a massive exercise. It was very strange that it didn't have a proper textbook, diploma and wise, but they didn't. They finally got around to having a post to help create those books, and that was the post that I got in twenty fifteen. And so my colleague ran up on me, Victoria Mackenzie and W, we were basically the two main writers for the five diploma in wines textbooks. And so, yeah, we did that over a four year period with the help of, like, seventy external experts who gave us basic material, which we then wrote in a consistent style. I was lucky enough to be the Italian expert as well as the writer for it. So that was a great experience. And then we also had another set of experts who checked what we had written since twenty nineteen, which is when it was all published. It's been my job to update it. So I've done over four years. I did a complete update of every single unit, and I've now gone down to two days a week doing the same job. And I have a new colleague who is in New York, which really interesting having a colleague who's a long way away, but she has amazing abilities, but also incredible contacts in the US, which we just don't have. And so yeah, it's been a fascinating job. The only drawback of it is that, of course, we have to cover the whole world. Absolutely properly or at least the principal wine regions of the world. And therefore, you can't really do anything in-depth. You can't just say, oh, I'm really interested in, you know, Southern France or whatever it is. I really want to write more pages about that. You you have to think that everything has to be roughly in the right similar length as as everything else and not and also not just to overload students because it's also already a massive qualification for students. So when I stopped being a MW student, I then decided, or I'd like do something in more detail. And that basically was a question of which Italian region. And of course, you decided to focus on. Yep. Before we discuss the inspiration, I, Naprick, then do you want to give us a reading, David, from I think you're gonna read from the introductions? Yes. Okay. So this is this is a short couple of paragraphs from the introduction. The top wines of Piamonte are among some of the world's greatest and most treasured wines. What is much less appreciated is the sheer range of wines and of local varieties in the region. It has sixty denominations and coincidentally about the same number of registered grape varieties, nearly all of them native. The region produces outstanding red and white wines for every occasion. Many styles of sparkling wine and worthwhile sweet wines. There is so much to explore here, even for those who love and already know about Kimonte's world famous red wines. Purpose of this book is simple. It is to help wine lovers understand more about the well known wines they rightly cherish. And it is a big end to go beyond their comfort zones and explore the remarkable range of wines made in Piamante. This is equally true. If you love the great wines of the regions such as Barolo, Babrasco, Nitsa, and more, or the region's hugely successful everyday wines, such as Moscato Dasty, Garvey, and Babero Dasty. Piamonte has unparalleled riches in terms of grape varieties, wine denominations, and wine styles. Rukee, Cornelilina, Temaraso, and Abaluche, either long list which makes wines as fascinating and diverse as the big five Nebula Balbera Doceto, Moscato, and Cortesa. So that was from the introduction of the wines of Pemonte by David Way. Published in twenty twenty three. Can you tell this David what it was? You mentioned in that meeting there in fact, the unparalleled richness of the region. Is that what drew you to the region or or was there something else that led you to choose One is, of course, the quality of the wines. I mean, you know, these these are world class wines. And secondly, I knew a little bit about the diversity. I really, to be honest, I did not understand the incredible riches that there's all there. I knew the names of the grape varieties, but I didn't really understand how good the wines were, how interesting they were, and there were lots of grains, which I simply didn't know about. Then there was a really practical one about getting to the region. Know, if you're gonna write a white book about a region, you have to get there. And it's very easy from London to get to Turin, to Milan, to Geneva. You know, there are lots of different ways which take you directly to different arts of Piamontagery. And then thirdly, Janet, my wife and I, Janet, we drew up a short list with possible candidates. Okay. Which was Tuscany Piamonte, and, the wines south, particularly companion and basilicato. So I love Allianne Go. I love the white wines of the south, and we debated the merits of them. And Tuscany in a way would have been the obvious choice because I spent a lot of time in Tuscany. But in the end, Janet said to me, I think David, you need a new challenge So in the end, it was Piamonte at which one the day, and it's proved to be an absolutely exhilarating adventure. And we have visited all sixty denominations and had a great time and made some of the great friends here. So, yeah, it's really a good choice. Interesting. And it sounds like there's definitely scope for a sequel. Still chance for Tuscanyabad or Southern regions as well. Okay. I've sort of promised myself that I'm not going to start on another major project. Immediately. I really like to build on what I've learned about Piamante because I just think there is genuine task to do in terms of getting people to understand to get beyond Barrolin, Barbara. Great there they are. Cultural diversity. Can you tell us a little bit then about what it is in that region that enables such great city, cultural diversity? Are we talking about landscape, climate? What what are the factors that play there? Here, I can draw an academic background or zip home. So a couple of professors, led particularly by, Raymond and Anna Schneider, we have done really remarkable studies on the interrelationship of great varieties within North West Italy. So that would be Valdosta. Little bit of Lombardia and Piumonte. This publication is available in English. And they've shown that, you know, for example, how closely related Nebula is to Friza, to Vasqualina. But they've also shown This is really fascinating. I mean, Pieranta has this, I mean, they're slightly strange from the outside world, but you get used to them when you're in the region, aromatic and semi aromatic red, great varieties, which often come in semi sparkling forms, such as sort of get, while rootkit doesn't come in marketing form, but mark the marv the three Vietnamese Marvazillas, for example, are often made in sparkling form. So those aromatic reds, bouquet, which makes big structured powerfully aromatic wines with big talons. Or aunt Mavazir Dick Kasort. So just to take that example, both related to an almost unknown grape variety called Mavazir Aramatico Di Palmer. So what the academics have done is that they've done remarkable work on on grape DNA. Demonstrated the interrelationships between these various grape varieties. And they've even been able to hypothesize grape varieties, which we can no longer find, which are the intermediate grape varieties between some of the ones we do have and some of the other ones we do have. It seems to me as a non scientist, that seems extraordinary that you can do that. But there is enough commonality in the DNA of the of the grapes to be able to demonstrate to a reasonable level of security that these grapes are are related. So the reason why Pamonte has this amazing range of grape varieties. I think it's too fun. Clearly, there's been an awful lot of meter breeding between grape varieties over the years. And secondly, I think because until recently, well, most of Piedmont is not intensively cultivated with grapes. I know Burra Lund Barresco are a great theme park, but elsewhere, there's still a lot of mixed agriculture, industry, swamps, rice fields, all sorts of things. So, actually, a lot of local grape varieties have survived in very small places, you know, because they haven't traveled, so still are only where they are. But scientists have done all this work to demonstrate or first altered to collect all these great varieties to catalog them, to grow them in controlled conditions, and then to study the DNA. I think is the reason why there is this amazing grape. Great, great diversity of K. B. Monto. Yeah. And notwithstanding that great diversity, you explaining your book that the success of Parolo and Barbara particularly in the North American market. Has led to an export boom, rising land prices, surging wind tourism across the region. Does does the success of those two great winds trickle down across the region or are those lesser known varieties really just for grape meds, like yourself there. I said. That's entirely that's entirely fair. You do real market viability. Okay. That's quite complex to answer, but I'll have a go. So, yeah, no way is the successful as barolo and barbaresco. You can go Napiello in in those denominations. You are gonna get a price for your wine as long as it's good, which is quite unlike anybody else's prices. The only places at the beginning to rise a little bit of light neat surf. It used to be a sub zone of Babera Dasty. Now as a docG in its own right, top quality Babera in the historic heartland of of Babera beginning to have a little bit of a collector's market. So you can see there the in evidence of of of another great great variety. Nebula is beginning, of course, because of the success of Nebula in the Langga, it's beginning to be planted in other parts of Pneumota with some success. So in Montaratta, DOC, which is like a large regional DOC has now got a category called Montvarado DOC in Nebula. So that's beginning to create a market. But the other success stories are not really in the say there are real success stories, but they're not in the same league. You know, so calling Tortonese for Tivaraso is a is a real success story. Lucia, great, great variety in the language. It's another real success story. We'll talk about Alta Langa later, I think. Under the sparkling wine heading. Yeah. So, yeah, there are some really great things going on. And my point is these are wines of real quality. The news for us consumers is they're not super expensive yet. And therefore now is the time to go and discover them. For me, the challenge for Barolo and barbaresco, I they can't plant any more vines, you know, that all the beds, all the decent sites are now gone. And therefore, they're gonna have to think if you wanna grow as as growers, they're gonna have to plant outside the geromination, and they are doing that either in the higher land, Borrolin Babresco for the climate reasons, or they're planting in other regions and making great wine, for example, Demarasco. I hope Barrolin Barbarresco producers will understand that it's important to drive the region as a whole. Are you enjoying this podcast? There is so much more high quality wine content available for mama jumbo shrimp. Check out our new wine study maps or books on Italian wine, including Italian wine unplugged, and much much more. Just visit our website, mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Now back to the show. We welcome back to that question of the the sparkling and some of those more trending winds in a moment. But let's take a second reading Second reading is about a tiny Nebula denomination called Karaima DOC. This is a small but special DOC. The only one devoted solely to Nebula wines in the Canvasa area. Canvasa is north of Turino. Here, the great variety is known as Picotena. It's name in neighboring Valodosta. The village serves as the gateway between Piamonte and Valodosta with its strategic position delivering spectacular views to both the north and the south. And of the steep rocky slope on which the terrace vineyards are to be found. Indeed, vineyards are a bit of a misnomer here, as most of Karaima is planted on a series of small terraces, many only accessible on foot. During the various wars between France and Austria, a flat fertile land by the river was used to feed the soldiers, forcing the villagers to use the slopes of the hillside. The slopes are extremely rocky. And it it is said that the village women carried soil up to the terraces on the hillside to make farming possible. In the past, much of the forested area that now surrounds the terraces was undivined. This was later abandoned. The maximum extension in the past is thought to be in a hundred and twenty hectares. In twenty nineteen, only eighteen were still being produced, but creating really interesting their Bureau wines. Very good. We are recording in the midst of the the final few hours of Dene Delia. I think they're busy trying to clear the units. So I do apologize for any background noise. Okay. So that was a a really interesting reading from the book on the, DOC, one of the lesser known wine appellations that David has written about. Can you tell us something more about some of the new trends that are hitting the region or that we should know about in terms of sparkling or roseier wines or white wines that that we should be aware of. Yep. Of course. Piamonte has thought of as a land of great red wine, absolutely correctly. But I think what has happened in the last twenty years is that they now have really significant white wines to go along with that. Of course historically, there was always Cortesa in in Garvey, which can make very good wine. And Mauriz Lee Anese had a had its, you know, moment of of real success from the nineteen nineties onwards. But there are a couple of grape varieties, which everyone, Lobo, should know about. If you have the chance to taste La Sheta, which is a grape variety local to the village of Novello in Barolo, producing really lovely fragrant wines with interesting aromatics, really good acidity, which means that they can age as well. And then on the other side of the region near Lombardia, we've mentioned Timorazo already. I mean Timorazo is a real star grape variety. Brought back from the edge of, extinction, a bit like bionne in the Rome, about forty years ago, it's literally down to less than three hectares then. Now it's up to about two hundred. And Valtamasa in particular has rescued it. Made wine from it. Fortunately forgotten about the wine and left it in the cellar. When discovered that after three or four years, it develops the most remarkable secondary characteristics, a little bit like riesling. So when you taste dimaraso the first time, if it's a young bottle, you'll think, well, what's all the fuss about? It's a perfectly good wine, but give it three, four, five, even more years in the bottle, and it develops into this remarkable wine with all these, yeah, interesting tertiary notes. Could go on. Paracuchat is another great variety, which is beginning to have a bit of a vogue. Very high acidity. You can make a very sparkling wine with it. Yeah. So now I think there is now, you know, really good offer of interesting white wines to go with the reds. That's interesting to hear about the renaissance or the rediscovery of some of those lesser known varieties and varieties perhaps on the the brink of extinction. Yep. On on a similar topic, chapter two of your book is entitled to the growing environment and it explores some of the challenges around the diverse geography and climate of the region. What would you say is the biggest challenge currently facing winemakers in the region? And how are they adapting in the face of those challenges? The biggest single challenge undoubtedly is the change in the climate. We've had a series of seriously hot, seriously dry years. At one level, that has been entirely to to the wine grows entirely and positive, because whereas in the past, we used to have two or three good years of Nebula in a decade we now have scarcely had a bad vintage in this millennium. I mean, some people say that twenty fourteen wasn't great, but actually, the whites now turned out to be really good up to about Lebiolo here. The warming climate has been a real positive Borrolin Barbara and other Nebula wines are so much more accessible than they used to be. I've just tasted a hundred and seventy five examples of of Nebula at the Nebula Lima for the twenty twenty vintage to be honest, you could dream those wines today. They aren't that accessible. It's quite remarkable. So that's all the good stuff. The not so good stuff is that, you know, years like twenty seventeen, twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three are extremely hot and extremely dry. There were months or nearly whole years in which no rain fell at all. And of course there's no fissile, there's no water for irrigation, and there's no infrastructure for irrigation. So, you know, completely different from Australia or South Africa or somewhere where you could, you know, you have the plant in place. And as as long as there is water, you can irrigate. Pemonta just isn't like that. And also, which the vineyards are very steep. So it would be extremely difficult anyway. So what have they done about that? Well, they've learned to improve the water retention in the soil by adding compost in particular because as I've already said, some of these vineyards are on steep slopes. Therefore, the water tends to run away when it does rain. It's the other big problem nowadays when it does rain, it comes in torrents rather than gently. And the lack of snow in the winter, it's been a massive problem, and the great value of snow is that it sits on the ground and melts slowly. And therefore, the the ground absorbs it. And then that that gives you a sort of tank of water as it were in the ground, which the divine can can use throughout the rest of the season. So better canopy management, very careful use of water, and beginning to think about digging ponds and lakes in order to preserve such water as as does fall while they're just running away and being lost. So, yeah, a lot of a lot of work being done to meet the challenge of drought along with high temperatures. If you think there are any producer in Italy at the moment, climate change is just a massive issue. It's something that they're all too well aware of. In a way that I think if you live in the UK where the climate is milder and there's there's less wind being produced for sure, but there's also an s seventy to the the agricultural sector. There's maybe not that awareness of what what the climate is doing here in Italy. I think there's a very deep understanding that the climate is changing. Yes. Your appendix in the book, it includes some details of where to stay and what you eat when you're in the region. So not only do we know everything about the the wines from the region, but I also have a few tips on traveling to the region. What advice would you give to someone visiting Pimonte for the first time where should they stay, what should they eat and what aside from discovering the region's wine is there to do. Okay. So if you're a wine lover, you're undoubtedly gonna head to Alba, which is the city between Barona, Barbara. And quite rightly too, you know, I have no problem with that. I mean, I've written a book trying to encourage people to visit the rest of the amount of it, but of course, you'll want to go to Alba. And I've really noticed the last ten to fifteen years become so much more of a of a wine destination. There are so many more restaurants. There's so many more really high quality restaurant. I mean, if it's always been brilliant, but there's a much more sophistication about the food now than they used to be in the past. Lots of little places to stay in the countryside. Actually, nothing now is cheap in Italy. Yeah. But there's a range of of accommodation from, you know, basic rooms in Alba to Relay, small beautiful handcrafted places. So undoubtedly, you want to go to Alba If you're brave, you'd go in the autumn for the, truffle festival. Yeah. I say you have to be brave because the town is just so crammed with people. Right. Italians love truffles. As you know, Hannah, it's just chaos. You think you're there because of the wine, but actually the real deal in October, November is the cuffles. And then secondly, I would say you really must also visit somewhere else. I don't mind where it is. So you could go to Nitsa Montarato for the Great Balbero who we were talking about earlier. You could go across to Garvey, Eastern Piamonte, for the two grapevine denominations of Garvey, for Cortezi, Antimarasso, and the coli tortonese, they're actually next door to each other. You could fly to Milan, Malpensa, and then you're only like forty five minutes from the region known as Altapio Monte, the Nebula and Nebula lens, from Gatinara and Gemma. It's really easy to get to from the principal Milan Airport. And what should you eat? Well, I mean, you know, water has one of the most sophisticated cuisines in Italy, and that's saying a lot. It has incredible, fine pastures of its own. It has, I mean, truffles we've mentioned already. Fatello tonata, which is a veal based dish, which is incredible. You have so many beautiful things, to eat. They take food as seriously as wine. It's really interesting. There's there's actually a university devoted to hospitality wine and food in Piamonte, which tells you How seriously they take the food side of their culture. Sounds wonderful. It's also making me feel rather hungry. One of the things you can probably realize as well. You need to say it's fantastic for wine, but not so great for food. Okay. Let's take your thought reading David, and then we'll document the craft of being a raider. Okay. So one of the topics I I researched in some depth is the history of sparkling wine in Piamante, and this is a little extract about that. Pemonte is an important producer of sparkling wine in terms of the volume it produces, its unique range of styles and the quality of its wines. While it cannot match the sheer production numbers of prossecco in the Veneter region, it has the much loved tank method wines, Esti, and Mosgata Dasty. It also produces a virtually undiscovered range of other wines made in this way from distinctive local varieties such as Bracchetto various Malazillas, and varieties, which today are normally made of still wines, such as Barbero or fraser. To complement this tradition of tank method wines, it has now created a small but growing sector of high quality traditional metal sparkling wines made with pinotaro and sharpening. Most of these wines are bottled in the denomination devoted to this style, which is called Artalanga docg. What is much less well known is that this is a return to the history of traditional methods, sparkling wine in Italy. In the second half of the nineteenth century, long before French quarter and Trinta dot were established. Traditional methods, sparkling wine was pioneered by Carlo Gancha in Piamonte. So they they you're talking about traditional methods sparkling wine and its impact in Kimonte, the the research, obviously, that is required to produce, writing chapter on that on that topic is obviously extensive on your part. Can you tell us a bit about the craft of being a writer, the research involved, what are your writing habit? How do you get in the mood for writing? Is it an academic process? Is it an emotional experience? How are you drinking wine? Okay. So as I think I said in the beginning of the podcast, I'm I love studying, particularly actually in later life, I've enjoyed it more and more. So that for for me, that's easy. So I I love going into finding a topic, getting into into some depth, discover what other people have written about it. That's really important because, you know, we can't know it all ourselves. So I'm very happy to read Iandagata, very happy to read many other things that are published by by good authors. For the book itself, I clearly realized I had a problem in that they were I discovered that there were I didn't know there were sixty denominations Mhmm. Among a lot of stuff. Mineal started had I known no. So, basically, I I adopted the method whereby I did the basic research of reading the regulations for the denomination, discovering exactly what's the categories of why you're allowed to produce if you wanted to use the particular doc or docG label. I then went and found out how much wine was made under those categories. It was for me, wine isn't just an enjoyable drink. It's actually part of the economy, and I want to know whether somebody know, some of these denominations are making like, just five hectares. I mean, they're tiny. Some of the regions more than that, which others are really major players in the world of wine. And then having done all that, I would then taste the famous examples the wine, if there were some. And then when there were grape varieties, it didn't really know a huge amount about it. Didn't have a lot of tasting experience of particularly during COVID, we just order a case of Fraser or whatever mixed case from Italian online shop and they would send them to me during COVID. Also, the producers were amazing. They would send me samples to the UK. I would then interview them on Zoom. So bit by bit, I would put together the various dimensions of what what I wrote about. And then I would use actual visits to fill out that to check that I had enough good examples of a producer of Corinne Linodasti or whatever the particular mine was. And I would use Vinne Italy as well for that because it's relatively easy. To get an appointment here with a producer and, you know, in in an hour again, an idea of their minds, into them. So basically it was sort of like a giant jigsaw puzzle, which the structure was created by the history, by the climate questions, all those introductory chapters that I wrote, and then the and the areas and within the areas, the particular denominations. Yeah. I mean, it really is the most detailed and comprehensive account of the wines of Pindu wanted. And I think for anyone studying Italian wine or focusing in on that particular region, it really is absolutely essential reading. Certainly, highly highly written indeed. Thank you. Moving away from the world of wine, what are you reading for pleasure? What's on your bedside table at the moment? The honest answer to that is not enough. Because obviously, this is a very intense project, and I was still working most of the time I wrote it, I was still working at least four days a week for the WCT. But I have enjoyed some people who sort of have one foot in the world of wine, but also have an interest in something else. Right. Such as like Andrew Jeffords, classic wine library produced a really nice anthology of his best pieces from Decanta over the years. The reason I really admired Andrew Jeffford, and this goes back to a point we made earlier, is that I mean, he in his heart, he's really a poet. Okay. He's a great wine writer, and he's phenomenally knowledgeable about wine. And but he is, yeah, he's a he's a romantic element to him. There's a poetic element and he tries to convey I mean, the problem I think the biggest problem about being a white writer is that we only have words. We only have words to describe something which is tactile as flavors and and texture. And I think Andrew's work is remarkable in that he tries to express some of that in a really poet. I have colleagues in the WSTT who can't stand in the top is writing at all. Right. Because they want to be objective about everything and just describe the process for that. I think he's taking a risk and wants to go beyond that. He's somebody that we will be approaching in due course to have on the show. He's certainly a writer that I'm familiar with and he's he's worked high. I appreciate. He's he's also, I think, written about scotch whisky as well. I think if it's on the island of Iowa. So I'd be really curious to have a conversation within a bit of Scotch whisky as well. Yep. For for my part, yeah, I've also been incredibly busy over the last few weeks. So I really struggled to find any time or energy for reading. What I've reverted to is audio books and podcasts, which I can listen to as I fall asleep in the evening or as I'm cycling to work in the morning. So one book that I've been enjoying this Shakespeare for every day of the year, by Ali Esser, and it's a collection of plays on its own poems with a commentary alongside. Right. I don't know if it's gonna be saved, Aurora has a has its own connections with with Shakespeare as well. So that's my top tip for the month. We'll add those books and some of the the wines and similar details in the show notes for this show. David, what are your plans for the summer? And what's next for you in terms of rating. So, for the summer, I've got some lovely trips in Italy, wine focused trips. So I'm gonna go to the event called Taste Altopio Monte. And then I'm going down to Tuscany San Jimignano on a press trip there. And I'm also coming back to the venator or at least the edge of the venator for lugano. So that will be fun. I might go on a little trip to Sweden, more of a holiday. There is wine in Sweden. I mean, this is really interesting both in Sweden and Denmark. I'm not going for wine reasons. I've just really worried about this. This is more of a holiday, but it's nice to go somewhere cool in the summer. Absolutely. So that's great. In terms of writing, I have a possible project, which I'm still negotiating, so I can't really say a lot about it, but it would be focused on, you know, recommending, you know, if you want to know about Barrell and Barbara, because there are already lots of people who can give you advice about that, But I would like to do a publication, which, of course, of course, talks about Berlin Barbara and Barbara, but also highlights some of the great wines that we've been discussing outside of the Langgo as well. So that's a real possibility. And I'm also doing some vintage notes for people, and that's what we think. Yep. Good. And where can we get a copy of your Brick David? Okay. So it's the slightly complicated. The book was published by the Classic Wine Library. So if you just put in David Way, white library, you'll get it immediately. You might be a bit surprised when you arrive on the page, because actually you'll then be in the Academy Duvan Library website. And that's because after many successful years, the founder of this version of the Wine Library has decided to stand back and has sold the company to the Academy Duvan Library. So if you now buy a copy of this book, it will have Academy Duvan on it in twenty twenty four as the publication date. It's the same book. Basically. It's just it has a different ISBN number and all that, simply because it's moved from one publisher to another. It's a really positive move, because the Academy Duvan Library produces really lovely books. And they also have a bit more of a budget for a promotion. So that's great. The Classic Wine Library will continue. It will be one of the lines as it were of the Academy Duvan Library. Interesting. We are our guest on next month's show will be Hermione Island. Yeah. So we'll be talking to her about the life of a publisher and her work with the Academy Duvan publishing House as well as perhaps getting some tips from her on how to get your wind book published. So if you're an aspiring wine writer, that's one not to miss. David, thank you so much for being my guest on book club. I know it's a busy time and we need to be cozy in many different directions. So thanks for coming and spending some time with me today to talk about your life and your work. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. It's interesting to reflect on the journey I've been on. And hopefully, it's had a successful outcome in terms of this book. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for joining the Italian wine podcast book club. Tune again next month when we'll get between the vines with another great wine book. Remember, our show notes including full details of all the books we've discussed today are available at italian wine podcast dot com or wherever you get your pods.