Ep. 435 Michelle Cherutti - Kowal MW

Yeah. But you you might have often seen me as just Michelle Sheritti. Wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. No. I had a few problem. My real name is Matthew, but people call me Monty because of a comedy, group called Montey Python. And then sometimes Yeah. If I'm hoping as Monty, I can't get anywhere, you know, I have to try and get a passport ticket. Otherwise, I just don't believe believe I am who I say that I am. Yeah. Exactly. Alrighty. So, are we ready to rock and roll? Yeah. Absolutely. Let's go. Italian wine podcast with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast. My name is Montewood. My guest today is Michelle Chiruti Cow. Master of wine. Can I say that right? You did. Thank you very much. Okay. Welcome. Thank you. So you became became a master of wine in two thousand and fifteen. And you are, I think, a dual Italian Canadian citizen. How did that come about? Yes, I am Canadian Italian living in the UK. So, well, Monty, how does one ever leave their home? Do to love. What can I say? So, living in Canada and my husband, we've always loved traveling overseas and I've spent a lot of time in Europe particularly Italy. And when the opportunity arose for him to come and do a postgraduate degree in London, we jumped at it, and and we stayed. We we've essentially stayed here. So during that process, as opposed to getting, my citizenship in England, I I because I I have a Italian heritage. I got my Italian passport instead. So so that's why I have both. I have indefinite leave to remain to live here, but I I retain my Canadian and my Italian citizenship. Where were your Italian family from? Which part of Italy? So the very north, I say to people, Alto Pemonte. So he the the village is actually fomenta, which most people don't know. It's all probably I believe it's only less than two hundred residents. It's around seven hundred meters, in the Alps, but right on the border of Switzerland. So, if if you know, like a majority on the west side, Kenobio is the closest town and you literally hang a left and drive up in the mountains, and, and, there you are. That's where my family's been for hundreds and hundreds of years. So It's funny. That's it. That's kind of a scene. It's obviously a luminous but quite chilly place, and you live in Canada. We always associate Canadians with very, well, very warmhearted people in a very cold country. So you're obviously not not pleased about cold then. Not particularly although one does get used to when you're not when you're not in sort of minus five to minus ten for long periods of time anymore. One one does feel it a little bit more, I would say. But, but yeah, we're, you know, my my heritage is mountain people. So I I I do I do say that. So we we we can handle the call a little bit better, I guess. So you went to university in Canada and you majored in business, was it the business or business of wine, or was it both? No. It was just it was just business. I had a specialty in sort of political science and business when I when I went to university. So in in Canada, It has changed now, but when I went to University in Canada and obviously the wine industry there is, you know, very different from province to province. You know, the wine wasn't wasn't something that one went to as as a job as a career. And I'm I'm happy to say that has changed. So it really wasn't an option for me until I until I moved away. And and, you know, you come to a place like, anywhere in Europe or or England where I am now. And then, and there's just so many different career avenues, and that was so, so limited in Canada at the time. So, you know, going into the wine business wasn't really something that, really wasn't an opportunity for me, unfortunately. Okay. So, I mean, where did that ambition to work in wine come from then? Yeah. It's it's a strange thing. I I think being, and you would understand this being Italian. You know, my earliest memories are are, you know, my grandfather having glass wine, lunch, having glass wine at dinner, you know, very Italian never overly indulge, but that was their their their their beverage of choice to consume. You know, Santa Claus had a glass of wine and cookies. And when you grow up, in the late seventies, in Ontario, that was seen as extremely unusual and strange. You know, nobody's Santa Claus had that. And mine had a glass of red wine and cookies. So wine has sort of been in my life and around my life in that sort of foon wine culture for a very, very long time. And doing courses, in Canada really sparked my interest. So when I did move overseas, the opportunity came to do classes and switch careers, and I absolutely jumped at it. It it it was something that I just, you know, if you view that opportunity to switch something and to do something different in your life, this was it, and I jumped at it and took it. Because you obviously, you're quite a studious person. I mean, you know, you're you're doing the political science, and you seem like you obviously, you you're sort of multitasking, in terms of in terms of your interests, you know, politics and wine. Where does that kernel of, intellectual hunger come from I think some people may may doubt that maybe I was that academic, but, you know, I think when you have a passion for a topic and I had such a huge desire to learn so much more about wine once you once I founded a little bit of it and started experiencing. And this did happen in Canada when I took courses in Canada. I all I wanted to do was learn more and all I the first thing I did, and I think people thought it was very strange when I moved overseas as opposed to getting, you know, qualifications for a different job here. The first thing I did is actually went to the wine school and signed up for wine courses. So I really had a huge desire to learn more. The topic just fascinated me. And maybe because I was from Canada, maybe at that time, Niagara was just starting in its infancy to become a little bit more interesting and different. Maybe because that opportunity wasn't there for me. That when I had the opportunity, of course, in England, as you know, it's more on the business side, and that sort of suited my background the business side. You know, that was I just went headlong into it and loved the study of it. Probably more than I love studying business and politics. When did you land in the UK? When did you when did you decide that you're gonna make your life? Yeah. Two so late two thousand. So I took my first course in two thousand and one, not long after sort of really coming permanently. I went back and forth, in in the year of two thousand. And within weeks of landing permanently, I I took the first level at WSTT. I went straight to the wine school. So and and and took that. And just really continued on. I, you know, I took at that point, there was no level one. So I took level two when afterwards to level three, I was sort of still looking for a job, just really to pay the bills as, you know, living in London. And, you know, nine eleven happened, and the opportunities were minimal. And so I went into the full time, which was the diploma, the level of diploma, and and just kinda took off from there. Why was it hard for you to get a job? Is it because you were not British or was it because you were a female or because you had a a quirk for one? No. I think Yeah. No. I I think at that time, I was I was looking more in the consulting end of it. So consulting in the business side end of it, which was my background. And, and I actually had contracts. I did. I was about to sign. They had I had two opportunities, the two contracts. And if you remember that time when line eleven happened, the world was a little bit. We had a bit of a tech crisis. And, they didn't go ahead and sign the contracts. They just didn't know financially, and they weren't ready to sort of hire. So I was then in a lull. And and instead of sort of sitting around in that lull, I just I just said, well, I'll just I'll just continue with mine. I'll I'll I'll forget about this, and I'll see if if the world changes, and I'll hop into full time and wine, and I'll go switch into that and see what job I can get in mine. So that that that's that that's it became a very quick. It became a very quick decision, actually, to to do that. So you went from, from studying wine to teaching it at the the wine and spirit education trust. And that was from two back two thousand and four. Yeah. I did. I I did a little bit at a local, at, Westminster has the local council has sort of, programs that you can do for people that are sort of retraining restaurant hospitality, that type of thing. So I did start, doing a little bit while I was doing my diploma in two thousand two, two thousand and three. And as soon as I got my diploma, then went to WSET to see if they wanted me to work as well and just really build my career from those little pieces upwards. So, I mean, we I mean, do you did you sort of get nervous about that kind of thing that, you know, from from studying to actually being the teacher, not just, obviously, but, the Westminster thing, but also, you know, teaching for the WSET. Do you do you get nervous about that or you're just totally not phased? No. I think look. I think you you I think it depends what level. I think nowadays less so, but certainly in the beginning, I would just, you know, go over the syllabus and review it and go over the books. You just you you wanted to make sure you knew what you were talking about if somebody asked you questions. And there's, you know, there's always going to be somebody in the audience who knows as much as you, or sometimes even more than you, about a particular topic. So, yeah, I was nervous. Yeah. I think that that that that took a that took quite a few years, I think for me to gain, you know, the total confidence. And I must say, you know, teaching, even teaching the highest level now at diploma. I mean, we've got such amazing students with great knowledge. You know, it it as opposed to making me nervous, it actually excites me because I have to make sure I'm on the ball and I have to make sure I do constantly review. And I do keep up with everything because, you know, students students know a lot. Like, you know, they they they know a lot. So it's, now for me, I enjoy it. I absolutely enjoy being, you know, being, you know, having having having to have that knowledge and and having to bone up on it having to constantly study it. I think it's great. Are there any particular regions you particularly like, talking about in any particular Italian ones? Well, it italy is my that that that is my specialty now at at you know, at some level when you lecture, you need to have a really broad knowledge. So if I'm teaching the lower levels, I have to have a very, very good knowledge of of all the areas around the world. But when you get into the diploma level, you do have areas of expertise and and and that would be mine for Italy. I mean, picking a region at Italy. Gosh. That that's that's hard, Monty. You know, I mean, there's all there's all kinds of wines and all kinds of regions. Probably the south, I think the south is the much more interesting region. I mean, gosh, as you know, there's there's new grapes that people are discovering and finding all the time and, you know, all kinds of different styles coming out of the south these days. So that probably is more from an interest point of view. I think that's interesting. I love to see things that are revived. You know, if you take a look at what Vredicchio has done and sort of the revival of what I think is one of the more underrated grapes around. I think that's really, really interesting. There's some stuff in the central that's really, really interesting too. That's, you know, there's stuff I love to drink and then there's stuff that's really, really interesting. So there there's some stuff in central Italy that's going on that's really that's really interesting too. So but yeah. I mean, you know, hard to pick hard to pick in Italy. My spies tell me that you were recently in Manchester, giving a seminar. What was the topic of this particular lecture? So that was the Americas. So that was, so that's my that would probably be one of my other specialties be the Americas. So that was, if I remember California, I, had a few hours, not a few hours, probably four hours to teach in California, and then Oregon, Washington State Canada. So that's what I was there teaching, the Americas, which is also interesting. How would you describe your teaching style? I I would like to think that I'm pretty straightforward. I think most of the students would think that I'm sort of pretty pretty straightforward. I I feel very strongly there's there's a difference between teaching and and and what I would call entertaining. And I think teaching you need to and the syllabus. You need to be pretty clear. You need to be pretty straightforward with students. I'm pretty honest with students. If I don't know something or understand something, I can find them the information. And and, you know, I think I think entertaining is one thing you can use to make an interest but as long as it needs to be relevant for the topic. At the end of the day, students need to write an exam. They're there to write an exam. So there's a real difference between just doing sort of a fun little consumer, you know, tasting as opposed to what I call, you know, doing sort of real, real lecturing. So you're not only, you're a master of wine, but you are on the you're a member of the Institute's education committee, which sounds terribly sort of terrifying. What what does that involve? I mean, it's kind of like not only the MWs. This is the MWs of the MWs, isn't it? Yeah. The Institute of Masters one is a little bit different than something like, WSET. WST is a school. There's a syllabus. There's courses. You know, these are they've got qualifications with the courses. The Institute of Master's wine, it it is not like that. So it's very much a self study program. We're pretty open, pretty clear about that. So the education committee is all about supporting the students on their journey, supporting them through that, that process they're going to do. So, we have we offer four course days, and then all students have to go to a seminar. So some some seminar around the world, you know, whether it's it's a four or five day seminar around the world. So the education committee is really, there's different roles on it. It's it's looking at, it's that our topics relevant, our theoretical topics are wines relevant, you know, there's classical wine regions, but there's some interesting different things going out in the world. So are are these course days and seminars covering that? We often we what big part of what we do is we set sort of mock tastings for them and mock exams for them. And we bring in MWs to mark them to give them advice to go through that with them. We offer sort of more, from the theory side, it's more seminars and lectures. We'll do that as well. I think one of the bigger things and we've started looking at this a couple of years ago is more distance learning and doing a few things on distance learning. And I was doing a bit of that, so we're doing more dry tasting notes and reviewing that, doing Zoom. So that's why I'm quite comfortable using Zoom because I've been doing it for a few years. And you can, as you can imagine, with COVID, you know, now distance learning is completely ramping up because we've got students that are so locked in certain countries. So that's kind of the things that we do. I don't think it's less, sir. It's it's it's it's less daunting that maybe it sounds, but that that's the type of things that we look at from from an educational. You just did you use the term dry tasting? Yeah. So what's that? So instead having wines in front of you, it would be so, we would set up something, you know, four wines or often a question would involve maybe three wines or four wines. So it is actually giving them the wines and giving them the technical details of the wines. So you know what they are. So it's a dry tasting. It's open. You know what they are. And it's not actually tasting the wines. It's just writing your note or answering the questions. You know what the wines are. Let's formulate what a note would look like? What an answer would look like? What language would you use? And I think that that's something that a lot of students, whether you're a diploma, whether you're an NW student can do a lot more of, to be honest. You can sit there and you can write up. You can you can sit there and say, Leon, let's talk about Kianti Clasco, two thousand and fourteen vintage, you know, ninety percent sangiovese. So you should have an idea what that's going to taste like. So if you had, basic Kianti, a Kianti Clasco, and let's say you had, a Grand Slexioni. In front of you. Let's say those are your three wines and a dry tasting, we would give you the technical notes, and then we would post questions, you know, what's the common grape and why? And, you know, what, you know, compare the quality, compare and contrast the quality of these three wines. So it would be it would be something like that. So you don't actually need the wines in front of you. You can get them, but you don't actually need the wines in front of you to be able to formulate a note like that. So that's what we would call a dry tasting. That's very interesting. I've never heard of that before, to be honest. But it's, I think it it seems like a very good idea that you get into a sort of rhythm, or a framework of organize. First of all, organizing your tasting notes, and then, obviously, the knowledge, locker behind that. And, and I think, I think that's a really good idea. Yeah. It it is about that. It's formulating your thoughts and it's formulating reasoning and arguments. Nothing can take the place out of blind tasting, but there's lots you can do without wines in front of you, you know, just sort of, you know, looking at maybe old exam wines and and you can look at old exam wines and you can actually write the question just knowing what they are. And and that's that's what it's all about. It's it's extremely helpful, actually. So you you your master of wine, dissertation was, explored the impacts of Connelliano Valandoni, prossejo superior, upgrading from DOC to DOCG. And you said that this was quite a relevant issue. Is it still relevant today? I do think it's a relevant issue. So I took a look at that. I looked at it from two thousand nine, which was the year before the upgrade to two thousand fourteen. So over a five year period, one year before four years afterwards and really took a quantitative and qualitative analysis on the impact of producers, as well as UK market. I think it is relevant today, and I think it's relevant as you and I both know there's so many regions who think, you know, the holy grail and the answer to their region is to upgrade. And it may be the case, but their impacts of upgrading, you know, and it was interesting to look at what those impacts were. Did you know, what were the reasons that they wanted to upgrade? Did they meet, did they achieve those reasons? You know, what do they need to do going forward? And out of this, you know, most of the times when you do an upgrade, there's going to be a doc and there's going to be a DOCG. And and you know, how are those two now gonna be placed in your market? Should they be both being a supermarket with placements? And what's the price differential going to be? You know, does a producer need to consider you know, where where prossecco should be compared to prossecco doc. And that's what really came out of this. It came out of this that producers needed to think a little bit more carefully about, you know, that you know, where the higher priced product is more effective in really the on trades, the independent side. And then if you go into the off trade side, which is a supermarket side, that, you know, you really are you really going to achieve what you want to achieve from a reputational point of view, from a price point of view when you are competing with, you know, a lower, a a doc product. So it was, it was, it was quite interesting to to to look at it, and I did a little bit of comparison in the final analysis between things like Kianti and Kianti Clasco, which is exactly the same thing. You know, they both appear on the same shelves. What is the price differential? What is the impact? You know, how do How do I did this had nothing to do with consumers, but how does the trade, you know, what does a trade think of them? What how is the trade going to going to be impacted in place? And and it is interesting considering, you know, not not too far long layman that the craze is still happening, isn't it? It's still, you know, it's still a highly, highly, highly successful product. So, so it was it was really fascinating. It was fascinating to do. The people were lovely that I worked with to spend a lot of time and both Coliano and Valde, and and it was really fascinating. And and I still do a little bit with Prasco superiority now, doing that. So it was, yeah, it was a really, really interesting project to take on. Is that work you literally being in the regions speaking face to face with people, or is that distance, working? With for seco's superiority now. Is that what you mean? Yeah. Yeah. I've taken, so I have sort of, sort of spearheaded some a trip or two out there. We were going to do another trip, which I would love to do, but it's gonna be a virtual trip now in, in in in November. So it's a little bit like that. I've done a little a few little presentations for them at some of the trade shows. I've done sort of tastings for them with different students. So it so it's so it's a little bit of both. It's a little bit of both, you know, getting some names together to people come over and sort of see the region. As you know, it's quite impactful. When you, you know, when you get to Cortize and you get to some of these rivets in in in the region that, you know, you can you can really make sort of buyers understand and taste the differences between and not that Perseco doc isn't a great product. It's a fantastic product. You know, I drink it too. But it is, you know, it it it is people physically understanding the difference of the regions and the difference in taste and and the region why why it's higher priced. So I mean, you you obviously judge a lot of, wine competitions such as, the Decatur World Wine Awards and, five star wines, which is organized by Van Italy. What are your some of your bugbears about wine tasting, and what are what are the what are the things that make you excited about blind tasting competitions. My bugbear. Probably my biggest but and we've missed you by the way in Decantra this year. I did do Tuscany Monty. We did miss you tasting Tuscany this year. Probably, I think I think the one thing I'm not quite sure whether how you feel about this ways. You know, you you get some people that are a little bit nervous and sort of, you know, sit within one, one sort of mark. You know, they may go a down down two, it may go a little bit up two, but they just kinda sort of sit in the middle and I you know, I I really like to use the scale. I I like to use the scale. I like to think that there is, you know, there's legitimately some wines that sort of sit in the middle, but I like to use it to the higher scale if it's there and the lower scale if it's there. So I'm I I quite get a little bit a little bit irritated at people sitting on the fence maybe a little bit, but I'd like to see more, you know, more use of of the marks that we have. I think that's that's one of the things. It's amazing how many people are still quite scared of, you know, giving a low mark or giving a really high mark. Yeah. Exactly. Of being seen that to get things wrong when it's really just your your opinion, isn't it? I mean, that's what it is. And, Yeah. No. I exactly. What about, what what consulting projects have you got on at the moment relating? Well, not just to Italy, but in Italy and elsewhere. So I've got a corporate client that I'm doing, a little bit. I'm Well, normally I'd be there with them, but I'm doing, some virtual training with them to bring out a new product, and a sparkly line product actually. So I'm I'm doing a, consulting with them, putting together package with them, and then selected wines, obviously very different. People will be at their homes, so doing more of a a virtual experience with them. So I'm doing that right now. I'm doing a presentation for all the Psalms in South America that's coming up that'll be a live, I think a live zoom and recorded, and that's gonna be on ones of Canada. So I've got that coming up. As I said, this virtual trip, to Fras Piciore, so that coming up. And I desperately wish we could go there, but I can't convince anybody of that yet. So I'm not quite sure being from England will be let out anywhere these days. So I don't know if you heard, but London just London London just got put on restricted lockdown this morning. So What do you what do you what if some I mean, you're so such a positive person, such a logical person with a ridiculous amount of knowledge. And what what are some of your bugbears, in the industry? Obviously, people sitting on the fen offensive blind tastings is annoying, but it's not the the peel and end all. But, you know, from a female perspective, for somebody who really is at the top of the tree both commercially and in terms of, wineness in terms of your knowledge of, of the actual product, you know, for your your master, wine, and all the rest of it. What are what are the things that's still you think, we have areas of areas that are still unreconstructed that we need to deal with as an industry? Great question. Probably the one thing that irritates me the most is when we as wine experts, and it's a joint. We, you know, criticize, you know, consumers for their love of something basic and simple. You know, I get really upset when I hear some people say to me, oh, people people don't think I'm embarrassed when I, you know, I have a glass of pinot grigio, but I like pinot grigio or, you know, I like Persecco, but people don't think it's posh enough, you know, or if they have a blush, Simppendell. People don't think that's posh enough. And I get really upset at that. I think we in the industry are our business is to make sure that people enjoy wine. And if we want people to move up to scale in quality and in and and and, you know, encouraged them to buy different styles. That's our job. That's our job in the wine industry, not to criticize them, not to make them feel like they're idiots. But to actually say, I'm happy you enjoy it, I'm happy you really, really like it. You know, why don't you try something else? You might like this equally as well. And I think that's our job in the industry to do that as opposed to constantly criticize I have been at pubs and I have ordered a glass of prosecco or pinot grigio, and my wine friends just look at me in shock. And I just look at them and say, why? I mean, that that if that's what I wanna drink today, what does that matter to you that that's what I wanna You know, if people wanna drink something that's really simple and lovely and juicy, you know, why do we criticize that? So I I feel extremely passionate about that that people, that that people are made to feel that way. And I feel that with food and wine matching as well when people says just sort of, you know, you must have this wine with this food or you must have this wine with that food and I I get I get I get really, really irritated by it. And that doesn't go away. It it it's still around today. And that gives our industry such a horrible elitist attitude, and it doesn't need to be that way. You know, we're an industry that overproduces, you know, anywhere between what, twenty and forty million hectoliters a year. Our job is to sell on. That's our job to make sure people enjoy it, and that people buy it, you know, and they discover more wine. It is not to criticize people in what they drink. So I'm sorry. That's a little bit of a little bit of a rant, but that really irritates me. Yeah. Yeah. The the word rant and Canadian just don't go together by the way. Maybe I've been here too long. Yeah. I mean, your your term basic and simple, and I'm sure that has, that idea in your in your head has come from the fact that when you were small and your first introduction to wine was probably a base a simple line. Right? And and you've held that through your career, your sort of load star. So, and you've reached the top of the tree, not just being an MW, but, you know, teaching MWs. I mean, that that is kind of like a sort of pinnacle And for you to say that, you know, an everyday simple wine is just as exciting for you as as, I don't know, Patrice or whatever or Romini Conte, is really, really great to hear. And, I would love to get you back again on the podcast in the future. Because you have a wealth of knowledge, not just about wine, but about the the language of wine, and the the setting of wine, and the thinking about wine, and the expression of words related to wine. You are a fantastic inter I would absolutely love to. Michelle, I just wanna say thanks very much to you. And, we wish you every success in all your future projects. And we look forward to seeing you literally, soon as possible. Take care. Take care. Thank you very much, Martin. List to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Himalaya FM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time.