Ep. 1093 Cristina Mercuri | Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode has been brought to you by the wine to wine business forum twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth of twenty twenty two in Verona Italy. This year will be an exclusively in person edition. The main theme of the event will be all around wine communication. Tickets are on sale now. So for more information, please visit us at wine to wine dot net. Thanks for tuning in to Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people on the Italian wine podcast. I'm Steve Ray, your host. And this podcast features interviews with the people actually making a difference in the Italian wine market in America, their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. And I'll be adding a practical focus to the conversation based on my thirty years in the business. So if you're interested in not just learning how, but also how else, then this pod is for you. Hello, and welcome to this week's edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. I'm your host Steve Ray. And my guest this week is Christina Mercury from, Italy of all places. And Christina, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you, Steve. How are you? I'm I'm doing great. You know, you and I met, when you gave a presentation at Van Italy last spring on Prosecco. And I had I've been to Prosecco. I've tasted a lot. Learned a lot. And I I learned a ton more in your presentation. So tell me a little bit about what you do and what your mission in life is with, wine club, wine hyphen club dot IT? Well, actually, yes. I'm very glad to hear that you enjoyed my my master class, my presentation, and this is one of my activities. So I'm a one educator. I'm a presenter. So I I founded the wine club that is actually quite an innovative academy because I want to build a family that is quite unique. And I know it will take a lot of time, but I just started. So I have plenty of time. Apart from that, I'm in the wine industry, not for a long time, because I started actually in twenty fifteen as, you know, maybe I don't know if if I told you, but I was a lawyer. So I changed my entire life to follow my passion because I really wanted to teach people because I enjoy, feeling the people mindset of changing and getting more involved and interested in wine. So I decided to change entirely in my life. And now I am a master of wine student at stage two. I'm very, very happy about my my career now. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I I guess I didn't know that you're an attorney. That that was a major change. I'm sure it had some impact on economics and earnings. Indeed. The bust a bit of powerful motivation. Tell us more about what it takes to change an entire, I mean, you spent eight years going to college in in law school and then changed it. Yeah. It's it's quite a a big challenge, but it teach also something about, what you really, want and what you really can do in order to achieve your, your mission, your goal. And when there's something very big inside yourself, and you say, no. This is the right way to do it with my life to to go on with my life, then you find somewhere the the force You don't find money, but you find a force. Well, the the old joke in the industry, we've all heard it is if you wanna make a small fortune in the wine industry, start with a large fortune. And I think it's true. We've found it here too. I mean, as as I think about it in the US, the monies and spirits, not in wine. The and and spirits is fun too. I'm just back from a a conference in New Orleans. It was all spirits all week, pretty heavy duty. And, but there's a a little magic or romance, about wine. So let's take that more from an academic point of view. You said you're studying for your MW. You just took the, I guess, a second. What was the level that you just took the test board. So I I've done the test for the exam for the stage two. So, results will will will come at the end of October. So, we'll we will, we'll hope What why the MW? What do you, want to accomplish with that and how will you use that? Well, you know, it's the most, authoritative title in the wine industry and, I'm very, very ambitious as a woman. And I always had a high, aspiration for myself. And when, the first time that I discovered the NW, I said that to myself, okay, I want that. I want to become an NW. And for the very beginning, I started with a more, simple and basic co wine courses, then I started with the WCT, then I got my diploma, and the very following day when I discovered I passed and I got my diploma, I applied for the master of wine program. Okay. So you do, education, master classes, all that kind of stuff. I had the opportunity to experience one that you gave, on Prosecco. Given the level of, preparation and study that is needed for MW and your enjoyment of educating. Had you thought about going to the more traditional education route being a teacher of wine and the wine business at universities as opposed to being in the commercial side of it. I think the master wine give them, a really wide, brief on the wine industry in general. From the more academic staff, also with the culture also in making, but also the the commercial. And I think the approach that I understood from studying the NW program is a little bit more commercial. So it's, really something that can add value on my career in order to help the industry to promote better day wines, to promote the import of, foreign wines into Italy because there is quite difficulties since we are a big producer, we focus a lot on Italian wine. So I want to give a, to I want to change it in the in the long term. And also, I think becoming IMW will give value of Italian wines into the world. So it can be, double commitment. So as you said, it's more on the commercial side in my point of view. Become available. Okay. One of the things that, the the host of the whole Italian wine podcast, Debbie Kim, and and her operation is Van Italy International Academy. Can you you give us a point of a a view on Via and relate it to MW. Obviously, the two are different, but you can talk about who does it, who takes it, why, how they use it, one versus the other? I I think they are quite different, but in a certain way, VIs quite something that is unique and is very important for the Italian wine industry because the, there are courses, in order to became expert of Italian wine, but the majority of students, even though maybe also the the totality of students are not from Italy. So the subject and the scope is to promote and to understand what is beyond the label of an Italian wine in order to spread the culture of Italian wine into the world. On the other side, master wine is more generic. It's more wide. It's, really understanding all the wines of the world. So it's something that can can be bigger than, via, of course, and also it's focusing on different people because of the the people that are as as far as I know. People that are getting the the via are yes, very much expert indeed, and they want to achieve an additional knowledge on Italian wine. On the underside, the BMW is for, professionals in wine. They want to achieve a title that give authority in the wine industry as a whole. Okay. Let's, talk a little bit about, you talked about education and the, sessions and seminars and so forth that you give. What what what is the majority of your business? Is it master classes for different groups. And if so, what groups and and how do they find you? How do they engage you? I provide for different, kind of courses and master classes from the, the easiest wine tasting classes, or courses up to some courses, WSTT courses, Master class, and the audience can be both, professional, so the trade, and also consumer. So it really depends on the subject of the course of the master class and the, and the scope of the course. You know, in Italy, there is not a real understanding of what's the different, for instance, between, so many courses and courses. This is quite a huge difference. But in my economy, the the point is, penetrate and, arrive to a larger amount of, consumers in order to create a community that is, day by day more and more grow in in, more and more, focused on what is, wine culture, wine science, wine service, all these aspects are very important. So that's My point is, first, I have to get the students. Then I can educate the students on what is the best solution for the person. So I provide also courses that, are a little bit tailor made on the on the need, of the student. I get them by social media mainly. So I promote my courses on, on Facebook, Instagram, I also deal with, consultancy or, wineries. So in this case, it's more easy not to get people, in some cases, it's also our staff training. So depending on the need of the specific winery or a company, I provide a tailored education. So I I provide for a lot of different kind of courses in order to give the the best to to each of my clients. Okay. So in the US, I know a a bunch of people, not a bunch. I know several people who are doing what I would call corporate work. And by that, I mean, a lot of the big banks and money management companies and, consulting companies like Mackenzie will train their staff by hiring experts so that they become familiar with mine because their clientele is gonna be that much as is true of golf, very similar thing. Client entertaining and so forth. Plus, it's it's we probably pays better than, just a a local, local class. And then the other piece of that would be being a paid advocate brand ambassador. However, you wanna describe it for a given consortium or, region or entity. Do you do either of those two things? I do the both. Yeah. Yeah. I I I I try to, work with both, consultancy or, wineries of company. And, also, it it depends on the kind of course I I deliver. So, for instance, in the case, you said the about the consultancy, company that's a higher professional for educating in, in the wine business, sir. I do that. I do t building, for instance, which is more an entertain. No. It's informative. Also fun. Now on the other side, I need to be more technical, more specific, more, deep into the the the the technical detail in order to provide for, a more wine science education. I also do some wine business courses. Because, you know, in Italy, they're full of very small wineries that's a bit made basically they know how to grow vinares, how to make wine. They don't know how to wine or sell wine or promote wine. So I do courses based on the basics of the wine business, how to export, how to create a level, how to promote a brand. So it depends on on how big you are, what are your Yeah. Well, that that hits very close to home, as you know, I wrote a book. That's where the title of this comes from get how to get US market ready. And and my experience has been, let's say, it is a major challenge to educate individual wineries that are think of them as farmers or agriculturalists first as opposed to commercial wine companies. And often I find people tend to make the same mistakes that other people have made before them usually again for the first time. It seems like they wanna come to the US and and think that they can just sell there. The US is obviously a very different market than what's required to sell in Italy. How successful have you been in educating them on the realities, the challenges and the likelihood of success for exporting to the US market? It's very difficult to say because in some cases, people are very open to understand and make some change. On the other side, they they listen to you. They say, okay, but then it's difficult to change an edit. So my focus is to give a course, to give education, to give a cos sentence, but it's not to I'm I'm not their mom. So at the end of the decision on how to run a business is not mine. So the the challenge that I see for a lot of producers is they're not educated, and they're certainly not certified so that when they do have the opportunity to talk to a prospective importer and or distributor. They tend not to talk about the things that are important to the person they're trying to sell to. They talking a little bit how wonderful their wine is. Now their grandfather founded the winery here. It was a mixed use farm after you know, World War two. We've heard many of those stories. The challenge I find is to get them to sell themselves or offer themselves up as a solution to a problem or a business challenge that these people are facing. Whether it's a hole in the portfolio or an opportunity to create a hole in the portfolio for categories that maybe don't exist in the portfolio. I use Sabarantino de monte falco as an example, and most people don't have it. Yet it is a thing. It's also a tough one to sell. My experience in trying to teach people value oriented selling has been poor even though I keep trying to do it and and I do it in a lot of places. Webinars at varying various conferences. I do a lecture at University of Bologna, but mostly I've failed. That's not encouraging. Well, that's exactly the point. Right? Like, keep doing it, you know, who is it Albert Einstein's definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. But I do. I try and I, yeah, educate. I go through all this, and I've got all these presentations and worksheets and tools and things that I I give away for free. And yet most of the importers and distributors I talked to will say, no, I'm not interested in talking to whoever it is you're putting in front of me, and generally the reason is because they're not ready for the US market, not ready for prime time. They don't understand the marketplace, and the importers and distributors don't want to invest the time in educating one ten, ten thousand, a hundred thousand, individual producers. So what is the solution for some of these smaller guys? Or let's use as an example, say, a co op, and I'll just pick one at random that I'm impressed by as regards to the wine. Casto's been to a bunch of wineries there. I think the wine is great. It's what everybody drinks when when you're there. It doesn't have much presence in the export markets and yet it's extraordinarily, food friendly wine, and represents something unique and different than what's in the US. How would a co op go about establishing awareness in the United States for their type of wine? Well, actually, probably Via is doing a great job in, creating a community of, wine, Italian wine experts. Probably, there is also something that, is encouraging. I think that the younger generation are a little bit different than, their father or grandfather. So they are a little bit more conscious that, they cannot do everything by themselves, and they need people that are, they are to help because they are professionals. So I I don't have a solution to this question, but I think that, again, educating younger generation, trying to also, promote one, as a category. So working with the consortium, working with, parties that are bigger and can promote regional wines in, events or, in, I don't know, also webinar or tastings. So there are many, many solution in order to try to penetrate a new a new business, a new country can be, a starting point. I don't know how long does it takes because, you know, it's not a very easy job. Maybe it can be can be, something that to to to start with. One of the things we talked about is something that's very dear to my heart and has to do with the lexicon, the words that are used. And obviously, we're speaking in English, and your English is great, by the way. Thank you. Sure your Italian is is even better. Probably. One of the, issues that's come up in the US that has really created some controversy is the concept of clean wine. The actress Cameron Diaz came out with a wine and she started talking about clean wine does not have any definition, based on regulations by the TTP. And by definition, it kind of mispositions or dispositions everything else as unclean wine. I thought it was brilliant, but it's also very nonspecific. I'm thinking the in the science of it, clean wine has some meanings in terms of bacterial content and all that kind of stuff. But that's not what she means there. I think what she means is, you know, organic, better for you, all that kind of stuff, but it has no definition. Talk about some of the words that we use and that resonate with consumers in America that you've found or internationally that work. Words that work. Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to visit our YouTube channel. Mama jumbo shrimp for fascinating videos covering Stevie Kim and her travels across Italy and beyond, meeting winemakers, eating local foods, and taking in the scenery. Now, back to the show. This is quite a a complex question because, you know, I have also an idea of what is, clean wine and, the first, the first time I read about that, I said, it it depends. I mean, a clean wine in the term of, purity of fluid in the terms of clarity at the site in the terms of, absence of bacteria. So this is the opposite of, the definition that I googled last time because I said, okay. What do they mean actually? Then they wanted a, a clean wine in terms of, no addition, no, no, I think. So it's difficult to find a real term that works. But And, in in during my study, during my NW study, I'm focusing more and more on trying to find a more and more appropriate vocabulary when I want to describe a wine. So I think that, yes, the this process, this program is helping me finding something that is objective. So the worlds that can work in this, in this, in this business Okay. So, you're talking sugar, texture, acidity, body. Those are terms that mean a lot to people in the industry because we're able to kind of deconstruct a given wine and go through this tasting on the nose, on the palate, and then the finish, and so forth. Most people though don't taste wine that way, and they don't use those terms. And to a large degree in America, we've been jaded by the words. It's very flowery if I can use that word. Very flowery words used by a lot of critics. To the point that a lot of Americans think if they don't say something like Oh, essence of, you know, fried ginger or sauteed gooseberries or something like that that they're not giving an accurate description. Well, I don't know what sauteed ginger tastes like, or I never even seen a gooseberry, so I don't know what it tastes like or smells like. How do you get people to articulate or understand things in words that they understand? And one of the things you told me was you do use stories a lot and and reference things like fruits and so forth. And, also, I I try to to describe, wine according to the audience that I have in front of me. Give me an example. For instance, there is a very basic audience in front of me. I try to interact with them and try to make a sort of, similarity or reference or, I work for imaging. So I try to say, okay, taste the wine. How is the the shape of the wine in your mouth? It's like something that is very narrow and vertical, or it's something that is round, like a bowl in your mouth. It's something that is, easy to to diet, to to drink, or it's something that is, remain a lot in your palate. And then I try to understand the answer, and then I try to, focus a little bit more on something that is more specific. For instance, okay. Now that we understood that the one is quite bold in the mouth. Let's focus on your mouth watering. Is your mouth newly watering? Or it's quite dry now. And then I try to understand, what they what they what they can answer in order to see, okay, this wine has this characteristic. So this wine is a full bodied wine with a high alcohol and this may be perfect, paired with meat because it's, full of tannins. And you see, you know, the the palette of the mouth, the the, your tongue that is working with this sensation of astringency. So working with the palette and, giving imagine starting with this reference for, images can help be really helpful for people that is noise, completing novice to this business. On the other side, if I work with, people that are more professional, I try not to be very flowery as, as you told before talking about aromas. I talk with the cluster, okay, big cluster, but now I focus on, okay. Is it fresh? Is it ripe? Is it overripe? And then I focus immediately on the palette because the palette is something that will everybody has while the nose is more personal and subjective. So I cannot taste very easily pepper, for instance. Sierra smells like pepper, black pepper. To me is difficult. So I have to find something else to describe Sierra because mhmm. Pepper is not a market for me. So I go for the texture of the tunnels. Are they juicy or are they, drying? Are they focusing on the middle of the tongue or are they broad, arriving, and mouth feeling my, and covering my, my mouth, mouth coughing. So I I need to focus on the palate because The wine inside your palate, behave in the same time as my palate. So I can be more precise in order to bring a message to my to my audience. Okay. Well, let's take that to a practical level. And I get asked this all the time. And you you go to a restaurant, you sit down at the table. Somebody hands you the wine list and a lot of people kind of like, now what do I do? I don't I don't under understand it. I don't know any of the names. I don't understand the organization. If you're talking to, say, these corporate types, you know, investment bankers or something else who often would be the host and be the ones ordering wine, how should they approach watering wine and restaurants? Well, first, look at the look at the wine list, look at the prices, look at the the if there are more information about the which is the gray variety, which is the regional origin. If you are not familiar with, ask to the staff. So in this case, that's why I focus a lot on staff training because, if your staff is trained, it is it's the person. It's the perfect person that can help someone choosing the wine. So it it's really the influencer in the restaurants that can make a really big difference in the turnover of a of a of a of a of a restaurant. So it is not easy for someone that is novice even though there are many, many possibility now with technology now. So you can Google the name of the wine, and there are a lot of, notes and tasting notes in order to understand it, but you don't have, an entire evening to to decide which wine to order. So all you get are basic wine education, and then you go to a restaurant, and you can understand either with the main styles of a wine, or I think their staff can be really the influencer of the of the restaurants. Interesting. Yeah. I where I was originally going is, we're seeing I've been seeing a lot of, different ways of organizing wine lists and some of them recently by body. You know, weight as opposed to flavor or country of origin or varietal. I think that that's a noble thought, but I don't think it it works for most of the people that at least I'm sitting with at the table. They're always happy to say, no, Steve View ordered because I have a pretty good idea of of what I'm doing. But for most people, it's kind of a a a scary thing because they don't wanna make the wrong choice when there is no really, there is no wrong choice. There's no value judgment and yet there's all this emotional baggage associated with choosing the wine and being able to pronounce it, which it's tougher with French wines than it is Italian wines, but it's it's still there. You know? It's it's still there. And also, it's frightening because if you are in a table with a lot of people, you want to make everybody happy. So That was one more. Well, prosecco. Right? Have you ever everybody likes prosecco? Yes. Actually, one of my thoughts on prosecco, and I'm thinking back to the presentation you made is One of the reasons why it's become so public is it's an easy choice. It's when everyone recognizes generally what's sold here in the US is extra dry, not necessarily brute la crema, which is probably the most popular brand. Is, I think, twelve or thirteen grams of residual sugar. And it's an easy thing to say at that moment of pressure when somebody says, can I get you something to drink without knowing when anybody's gonna offer for food? So it's a nice way of getting, okay, instead of cocktails will have a bottle of prosecco and everybody will drink it. You make that assumption. I've seen a thousand other reasons why prosecco has become more popular, but I think that's a really compelling one. Almost to the point of, the role pinot grigio has played in the past. It's a simple thing. It's not an a polarizing line, and it's one that's easy for everybody to understand. Let let's shift gears a little bit. Did an interview with, Deborah Brenner, who heads up the, women of the vine and women of the wine and spirits now. And the whole concept of DEA diversity, equity, and inclusion has become a very clear and present thing in in our discourse. Are you finding the same thing happening in Italy? And how does that, apply to the wine industry? So I need to I am a woman in the wine industry. I see the the same male domination that is, slowly changing very slowly. So, for instance, in Italy, we have, after Shazione and Delvino that is promoting, this kind of culture, the diversity. And, but again, it's still something that is related to culture and also to age. So the the less culture you have, the more you hate. And the more you fight against the diversity. And also, I discovered personally, unfortunately, that all the people are less open to diversity and inclusion. While younger generation, millennials, generatina, zed are much more open. So for younger people, the gender is no more a, a question. We still have problems related to diversity. And when I mean diversity, it's not only male and female. It's also race. It's also, disability. And in the wine industry, we we see it. So I I can give you two example. So in the and and that's why also before giving the the two example, that's why your son's studying to become a master wine. So I know exactly that Christina McCuri is, Christina Mercuri with or without a title. But in this era, in this country, this title make the difference. When you say this country, you mean Italy or Yeah. Italy. Especially if you are if you are a woman. So I want to achieve this in order to say, okay. Don't look at me and look at my face or my gender. Look at me because of my title. See if I'm really talented or not. Your qualifications. Yeah. So do you do much work in the US? A little bit. Yes. With the PIX, I call I work with PIX. For Tell me about it. Tell me a little bit more about that. Yeah. I'm doing a selection. So collections of twelve wines, and I promote, not only Italian wise. Actually, I do select, this collection based on style of region or what I think is nice to to spread among the consumers, among the users of this platform. I think the the idea behind this platform is quite interesting. And, it can be a real game changer in, in the next five years. Cool. I I interviewed, Paul Mabray last year, I think. And, friends with, Erica Ducey, who is the editor in chief and felicity, who is also an editor there. Great staff, and I think, Pix has really made an impact, on the US market, and I think is taking a very a non traditional approach to, democratizing wine. I like to end my interviews with, asking my guests what what's the big take of? We've touched on a whole bunch of different topics. Have not been able to go into them in-depth. But of all that we've talked about and recognizing that the audience for this is mostly trade, mostly US trade. Is there anything we talked about that someone could, take from this conversation and put to use immediately? Understanding that, the trade in Italy is slowly, but it's changing. So one location is improving. And, there are more and more people that are, courteous and open. To try different style and to understand wines. So, what I can suggest to the trade is, yes, focus on information. High quality information. Use technology if you want. If you are in a trade and you can have the opportunity to put out core code on your label and, send some bottles to to Italy do it because younger generation are more and more curious about, understanding it and going, on a on a quirkold and scan it and getting from relevant information. They are more and more connected So, Italian people love Instagram, love social media. So improve your social media presence, invest on a campaign. I think that's, for the trade now, that want to get ready for the Italian wines and maybe also export US wines to Italy. These are information that can be can be valued. Okay. Great. So if somebody wants to contact you, would you like to share your email address that they wanted to reach out to you? So I'm very happy to get in contact with the the audience and to share some thought and the information and maybe also create some networking is very, very useful for me. So the address is, info at wine hyphen club dot eight. Great. Well, Christina, thank you for sharing your time with with us today. I really appreciate it. Once again, I really learned a lot from the the session you gave at Ben Italy, and I look forward to attending some of your sessions in the future and learning a lot more about why. We've been talking with Christina Mercurry. Of wine club, wine hyphen club dot IT. Thank you for, being on the show. Thank you, Steve. It's been a real pleasure to to spend some time with you and look forward to see you again. Thank you. Yeah. Well, I'm I hope we'll see you in Italy. I'll be there for, wine to wine and also for the Italy. Fantastic. We hope you enjoy today's episode brought to you by the wine to wine business forum twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth twenty twenty two in verona Italy. Remember, tickets are on sale now. So for more information, please visit us at wine to wine dot net. Hi guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian line podcast dot com.