Ep. 1574 Erni Loosen | Masterclass US Wine Market With Juliana Colangelo

Since two thousand and seventeen, the Italian wine podcast has exploded. Recently hitting six million listens support us by buying a copy of Italian wine unplugged two point o or making a small donation. In return, we'll give you the chance to nominate a guest and even win lunch with Steve Kim and Professor Atilio Shenza. Find out more at Italian One podcast dot com. Welcome to Mastercost US Market with me, Juliana Colangelo. This show has been designed to demystify the US market for Italian wineries through interviews of experts in sales and distribution, social media, communications, and so much more. We will quiz each of our esteemed guests at the end of each episode to solidify the lessons that we've learned. To sharpen your pencils, get out your notebooks, and join us each week to learn more about the US market. Hello. Welcome to Masterclass US wine market. Today, I'm thrilled to welcome Ernst Ernie Luussin to the Italian wine podcast. Ernie is an internationally renowned winemaker and owner of the two hundred year old doctor, Lucein Weinery in Germany's Mosal River Valley. Known for the quality of his reasons and exploring the world's greatest pinot noirs, Ernie has expanded his portfolio domestically establishing his old world finesse in the new world with projects in Washington State and most recently Oregon. Welcome to the show earning. It's so great to have you here. Thank you very much for the invitation. Of course. Of course. So before we dive in today's discussion about opening an old world style estate in the new world, tell us a little bit more about your your history and the wine industry and and how you got involved with the family business. Well, you know, I mean, first, we I'm here from a, family business here in the Moza, in Germany, you know, where we own a winery two hundred years now in the family. Here, we produce only riesling, but I had always a huge interest in in Pinonoa too, you know. Mhmm. Turs have been starting connecting it because it was my first Staget internship was in Burgundy, you know, at William Faver in Chablil where my father sent me, I don't know, I was, seventeen years old, you know, and then my first staget there. And the only thing I remember, because the owner, William Faver, you know, he had only two little girls, you know, and he loved to drink. And so every for every lunch and every dinner, It was me and William. We had to drink three bottles of wine, a bottle of Velage, a bottle of preemiguer and a bottle of in the lunch and in the evening, you know? And I was not used to these wines, you know. Yeah. I think early work. That's quite a task. The whole stage, I was m mostly drunk. That sounds like it. Wow. I don't know. You know, as a seven at seventeen, at least, you know, you had a young liver to to handle that. Right? That's true. That's brutal. But that brought me to the passion because you always brought me to burgundy, and that brought me to the passion. Okay. Shabalida, but we have been also going off and visiting, the quote you know, brought me to the passion of Pinanhua, because we didn't produce any pinanhua here, in the mosque, you know? Right. Right. So that was really what ignited your your interest in in Pinudor. Alright. In this episode, we're gonna talk about how you're establishing, you know, European style family wine estate in the in the US. But tell us a little bit more just about how you ended up coming over to the US and some of those early projects. About about thirty years ago, the first time, the early nineties, ninety, ninety one, ninety two, I had a very good relationship with my wholesaler in these days. I met through him, a lot of people in Oregon, winemakers, also our, I want now CEO who is with me also, since twenty five years now, Kirk Willie. Okay. And so, you know, and then we also started our own business importing business, and therefore, that were my friends, the lawyers, and so everybody was in Portland, Oregon. So we decided to to start, you know, this our little business, this importing business, and that was two thousand and three, out of, Portland, Oregon. And then through this, you know, then I had to come regularly to Portland. And so And sure. If you are so often there, then you meet a lot of winemakers in Oregon. And, you know, Oregon is very, very similar to Europe, you know. It's not these gigantic wine farms as you have in in California. Oregon was in these days, thirty years ago, pretty much to do this kind of ten hectare, eight hectare, five hectare, family estates, which we are very much used to, you know, because this is actually exactly the size as you have here in Europe, you know, five factor, eight hectare, ten hectare, Right. Or acres, you know, between ten and twenty five, thirty acres, fifty acres, you know, that was more of this kind of for California, for California, pretty smaller states. You know, I was very impressed about it because this is some that was sizes I have quite familiar with. Our estate was also only ten hectares or twenty five acres. And and that, you know, then you're familiar with this kind of business. The people are also very much like this European medium sized little wineries, the the whole mentality as they are very much European. That was a big level of pinot noir. I tasted a lot of pinot noir. I'm very much in love with the pinot noir of of Oregon. I mean, as we all know as much you want to have or want to have a winery and burgundy, you know? Mhmm. But, you know, but that this becomes the playground. Not anymore of millionaires. You have to be a billionaire nowadays with these prices. Exactly. Just this morning, I heard the newest price for, I think, was Shambatta or Mishini, you know, something like, fifty, fifty or sixty million euros for an acre. Wow. So I make I mean, you know Yeah. That's yeah. That's it's not a place you can play around, right? Like you said, you know, or Oregon, you have your playground for Pino. Yes. Exactly. In Oregon, in these days, when I started, I was still fair, fairly priced or every grape prices are going up. But that was, very interesting. And what, for me, also, my love for Oregon Pin and La, what I tasted in these days, and so, I was more towards this kind of the Villa Valley is for me more old world style, not as hot yet, and, and overripe fruit. And so, so from that point of view, I felt very the Pacific Northwest and say for Europeans, they feel very much like home, you know? He felt more at home. Yeah. And that, you know, Ernie, today, the the three key takeaways we wanna leave our our listeners with for for this master class about how you establish a European style of state in the US are number one, what do you look for when you establish a wine and state in a new market? Coming from the old world, especially. Number two, how do you introduce a new consumer to perhaps a different style of wine that they might not be used to, when working in a new market? And then also, number three, just tactically, how do you balance your schedule when you're working across so many different projects internationally? You told us a little bit more about why Oregon and and that Oregon felt so much more like home than perhaps California. And you also are making made some wines in Washington and have had some projects up there. So to contest a little bit when you're coming to Washington at Oregon and these gyms, what you're really looking for? That that was the first collaboration was ninety nine when I started the collaboration with Shatistan Michelle. Which, is until today is still, the largest single recent producer in the world, even better, bigger as the the competition, in in Germany, And, yes, you know, I and they're they're I was also approached there, by the CEO. Basically, it was, was, basically, my idea because a friend of mine, a lawyer, a very famous lawyer who's doing all these projects, you know, for Gujado and Tuan. So, you know, in in Oregon. He told me, man, that, you know, they're doing a joint venture with, with Antinori, but they are the largest single juicer. They should better doing doing, also doing joint venture with a recent producer. Why do you contact them now? Why don't contact them? Ask them if you guys want to do something together. We always said to put the best from the new world and the best from the old world together and create some tiny interesting and exciting. That project started ninety nine. And these guys immediately, I wrote to them a little essay and said, wouldn't it be great to to work together, to make Greece then great again in Oregon? Right. And was it great? Because, you know, twenty years ago, twenty five years ago, the reputation of reasoning was always cheap and sweet Mhmm. And long, which is very sad because reasoning had a great, reputation in the old days. It used to be a hundred years ago, even the most expensive wine in the world. And so then I wrote to them and said, let's do something. Let's do some, riesling, a great riesling, you know, totally new thing and try to find what an expression for, of Washington State Greaseling. So to people, if they taste a a recent complaint, mosel, Wachau and client, washing situation, that the people say, oh, this is washing situation. Until then, nobody, you know, everybody did something with a great variety, you know, but they didn't give it an identity, the identity of the soil and the area of Washington. That was the goal. So how did you approach that project? That sounds like a a tall order to take on. I mean, how did you go about that? As I said, I wrote to the CEO in these days, Alan Schuch, and he was immediately interested and invited me we've been risen to the vineyards. And so it was a handshake. It's great in the evening. Handrake, you know? I said, yes, do something together. And such a big company, like Fatos and Schhell, they have a lot of power. I mean, I was the next day in California and was already, Harvey Steinberg, probably already on my mobile and said, whoa, what's happening? Like, oh, I heard you're doing something in Washington, you know? So that was the first experience I did. And this was a on this project, it's still until today. I mean, it's it's not big the project. But until today, I think it collected the most accolades for the whole, for for for Michelle in such a small project, and we try to do a premium reasoning, which is really Eroika. It's called Eroika. Is pretty much the premium riesling of of America, you know, being in the Pacific Northwest, then we started two thousand three. We started our own importing business out of Portland that we import. We can port our own wine I hope wine range and and distribute it to distributors throughout the whole nation, you know, all the fifty states, and then being the whole time in Oregon, and this is, you know, which was our passion for people I said, man, yeah, I got the chance to fulfill my dream of producing. Right. But I've had a clear idea what I want to produce. I wanted to do it a little bit different as everybody does, you know, because Okay. Yeah, and they always work, we keep wines back. We have libraries. Mhmm. And we release wines late. Look, I mean, I'm I'm just going to release a ninety three wine next year. So thirty years old before I release it. Amazing. Last two years ago, we've released the wine. Which was forty years old. This is a little bit the idea of madame Laois, for example, you know, this famous, the one of the most famous people in burgundy. Right. I was always very impressed that she every year, she because I love mature pinot noir. I don't like young pinot. I like the money. Yeah. All my all my collection, ten thousand bottles of burgundy's in my private cellar are going back to nineteen fifteen because I like that because I think the wines show so much more if they have a certain age. And even why is a great, great variety for aging as it is with reasoning without doubt. Right. So the clear goal was, I want to produce a wine, which age, you know, which not only ages, I will agent, and will and that was the first wine, two thousand and five, and said, we have to do a selection, go for the right soil, and produce a wine, it was only a hundred cases, two thousand and five, and we will release it after ten years. We leave it in the cellar ten years. And then because this is always what my grandfather always said, train the yummy or keep it ten years, you know, because after ten years, you have the tertiary aromas, you have the full ripeness, you know, and Of course. And that is more exciting for me to train these wines. I think a lot of people miss a lot in the grapevine if they're twenty two young because great grape variety, a grapevine shows his own his real potential only with age. Wine to wine business forum. Everything you need to get ahead in the world of wine, supersize your business network, share business ideas with the biggest voices in the industry. Join us in verona on November thirteen to fourteen twenty twenty three. Tickets available now at point wine dot net. That was the goal to establish a project in Oregon where you're making great pinot noirs but releasing them with some age as well. Yes. Exactly. Mhmm. So talk to us, you know, how was that concept embraced by the US market? How were what did your neighbors in Oregon think about what you're doing with that project? It started very small, you know. It started at first two thousand and five. I didn't have Winyards, you know, winery and nothing. You know, I started it with a friend, with a Jay Christopher, Samas, who has, his own little production in these days, it was called Jay Christopher. And then two thousand nine, my friend, a lawyer there, was very much, I mean, in the wine industry, for the Oregon wine industry. He phoned me up and said, Ernst, you know, because I always said, oh, might be that I've if I got the right spot or so, I will will possibly also like to produce you or something, but I don't know the people in the area. So he he always had had a look. And then Chris phoned me in two thousand and nine, I said, Wow. I have a great piece of property for you. This is the last really great piece, perfect soil types, great orientations, and in Villa Med Valley, in the, in the, in a mountain, at the Shania mountain, Rex Hill, next to the old Rex Hill, the original Rex Hill vineyard. And, and I said, look, you have to take it because this is a hard piece. Take it. I have two more people from France on the phone, you know, they want to they they take it immediately, but you have friends. You have to do something here in Oregon, you know, you have to do the decision. I'm sometimes a little bit slow making decisions. I think it's also a typical old boss. Right. We're always way, way, way. Yep. Okay. We wait too long. And so I got and so I said, okay, Chris. You are right. I always was always a dream to do something here. And if you think that is the right property, And he said, yes, that's prime, prime, prime, take it to can't do anything wrong or the forty acres, but then, then you have to go also the second, second step, you know, because that was a spare crown. And so then I said, okay. Then we have to do it. Real we planted vineyards, you know, it was twenty five acres potential, to plant, and we started to build a winery. But we, I mean, it's all lots of financing and so on. We have been building, basically, the winery in three phases. First, we need a seller to to crash and to to produce the wine. But then again, you know, coming from the old world, I didn't want to build such a kind of a cheap barn, you know, with air conditioning. I said, okay. When we when we're going to do something here, we're going to do it the right way, the proper way in the old world way. Right. That means, underground sellers, arch underground sellers in the north facing slope of the property, So to, to have natural temperature and on, like, air conditioning with winemaking, you know. Yeah. We want to have Use the natural cool temperatures. Yeah. Yeah. Natural cool temperatures in the cellar, natural humidity, you know, for the bowel cellar. And so we build first the arch sellers, we, as it is in Burgundy, you know, so it's arch sellers. Yeah. And then we built the the the winery, so that we have been able to do our first production in two thousand ten. And the next year, we have been then building with a white wine building, and the the crash pad, all the other things office. And then just five years ago, we built then finally the the tasting room. Concept of a tasting room isn't really as popular, you know, especially in Burgundy, like the way that we see these facing rooms in Napa. Right? Exactly. Also here, also here in Germany, the people, they mostly don't have tasting rooms. They're doing it in their living room or wherever, you know, because the people all live on the proper in in Germany or in Europe, you know? Yeah. It's a different philosophy. So for us, the production is always first, you know, that is from us more important as the tasting room. But I learned that it is a totally different culture in the US. Tasting I for me, because we didn't have a tasting room. So I I thought, oh, why you spent a million dollars on the tasting room? You know, I mean, oh, you never get this money back, you know? But in Germany, you wouldn't get it back. But I learned it, and I had to learn it. My people said, no, no, we need a tasting. Believe me. This is a big thing in this country. Yeah. It's a part of the business plan, you know, or the business structure. So as you see, you're coming from the old world. I I always say, with my experience of Washington State and Oregon coming from the old world starting something new. You also have to listen to the people. I mean, I learned a lot, and I I totally agree nowadays because, you know, from the old world you're coming there, I think you have to do now everything as you do in the old world. You have to do now in the new world. Most of these socks, it doesn't work. You have to listen to the, they have their experience with the soil. They have their experience, with a lot of other things, because they have also their experiences, you know. And of course, You can't transfer one to one things from the new old world into the new world. Sounds like one of your key pieces of advice here, Ernie, is that if you're gonna start a project in a new market, is don't just purely replicate what you're doing, your home market. Yes. Exactly. To taste a lot of the other wines, you know, and then you learn also, everybody thinks, if I take these famous, what, a romani, conti clone, and I plant it in my vineyard, then I produce romani candy wines, you know? It's such a bullshit, you know? And we saw, and what, for me, was the biggest amazing thing that I learned there because marine failed a clone, you know, is usually a clone here in Germany, which we don't like. But in Oregon, this clone seems to be great, you know, in Crohn's, which we rather don't like so much in Europe, but to, they produce totally different wine and organs. So from that point of view, when we replanted, we also have been listening to these kind of, and we tasted a lot of these wines so that we also integrated this knowledge and also these, these, clones, which are never with flour to, to, to ever, would plant them here, but they may create wines there. So from that point of view, if you want to start something in the new world, you have also to listen to the people who has a lot of experience. There's also old winemakers there, which are thirty, forty years of longer there, and they have the experience too. And you have to listen to these, you know. Right. Exactly. Yeah. You have to understand the market. Absolutely. So alright. Talk to us a little bit about the future. I mean, obviously, you're always up to something new. You have so many projects. What's on the horizon? Anything new coming up? Any new project? Reasing, for example, maybe in up in the finger lakes or any other parts of the US? I have enough projects there. You know, I'm really the oldest donkey now in Chateau Michelle. I think there's only the I think there's only this lady, the PR lady, and me, we are the oldest. So that was that fantastic project, this pinot noir project, because that is the other thing, you know. I think that we learn as a, as a, as a European, you, you have a little more patience. Right. And so we know that things doesn't work in two or three years. I know in the new world, they want to make it always happen immediately, but here, the old rule, you need ten years to establish something. Nothing comes immediate, you know? And especially if you want to make the old wines, we we're just releasing the twenty twelve Apacheanada fortissimo, our pinnacle wine. That means in the first ten years, you have to wait. You know? Yeah. You have to have a lot of patience. Yeah. And Americans are known more for instant gratification. So, They they don't even they don't even overbough anymore. I know. I know. They already bought it before the harvest, you know? Right. So from that point of view, that is possibly something. The new world gives you a lot of ideas. Also, it's Piance and so on, but I think what the old work can bring to these projects, patients that you need patients also with winemakers. Right. That is basically and that was in the old days. Look, in the very old days. They had a lot of time, but no technology. So they knew much more what time does to to winemaking, you know? But then, nowadays, we have no time anymore, but therefore, a lot of technology that we can speed up the winemaking. But I tell you, and that is the experience. I think that is possibly what, what old world, winemakers have more experience with time in winemaking, you know? Because we know because we have wines from our joint branch rather still and grandfather, where they didn't filter, where there was no filters, where they had no technology and left the ones two, three, as we'd still do eight years in the barrel to settle down everything naturally, you know, know that you don't need filtration, you know. So I think this is something which the old work can bring to the new world to give the people a little bit of patience, but I must say that is not the content. Yeah. Well, there are things we can learn from from one another. It sounds like you're saying. Yeah. So, Ernie, Abby wrap up, you know, with time, if you leave or listen or it's just with one or two key pieces of advice. If they're looking at establishing a project, let's say in the US or maybe another new world market, like two AR, and Tina, one or two pieces of advice you would give them. I think was quite a smart way, especially if you're not a billionaire or millionaire and you don't if you have a lot of money, you can buy everything immediately, you know. But we are not, you know, old world wineries are not super rich or whatever, to start first with the collaboration as as I did it in Washington State and also in Oregon. In Oregon, it was a collaboration. Together as I started with Jay Christopher Summers, Jay Christopher wines, and then you get some experience, then you learn about the area. You learn about the winemaking, the glones, and the soil types. And that is a good preparation. And then, you know, after two thousand and five was my first wine. And five, six years later, I started in my own winery because I felt more safe than to do something as going jumping into the cold water in an area, which I don't know, you know, And so I owe only the wines, but if you drink the wines, you're excited about the wine, but you still don't know the the soil types, the microclimate, how the business works there, you know, it's also different. The business works differently as in Europe. Exactly. Right. And these things starting in with the collaboration is not as cost intensive, and then you can start to produce with your partner. I mean, who usually has them already in operation there, start with him to do some wines, and then you can print in your ideas and start with a small number, I started with a hundred cases, and then we slowly growing it. And now we're doing ten thousand cases. So from that point of view, I think this, this is the smartest way, you know, but Right. You need some time. You have to give you some time, you know, for this. Of course. We are still not there where we want to be, and this is now after fifteen years, you know. Yeah. I know. It does definitely take time. So it sounds like a couple of key pieces of of advice is earning that you're sharing are find great partners locally who know the market and also have patience. I think that's a great piece of advice for anyone. Well, Ernie, thank you. Was not billed in one day too. Very, very good point. It certainly wasn't. Well, Ernie, thank you so much for joining me here to tell you, wine podcast. I really appreciate you being here. Thank you for joining me today. Stay tuned to each week for new episodes of Master Class US wine market with me, Juliana Colangelo. I remember if you enjoyed today's show, hit the like and follow buttons wherever you get your podcasts.