Ep. 1624 Kevin Sidders | Masterclass US Wine Market With Juliana Colangelo

Since two thousand and seventeen, the Italian wine podcast has exploded, recently hitting six million listens, support us by buying a copy of Italian wine unplugged two point o or making a small donation. In return, we'll give you the chance to nominate a guest and even win lunch with Steven Kim and Professor Atilio Shenza. Find out more at Italian One podcast dot com. Welcome to Mastercross US Market with me, Juliana Colangelo. This show has been designed to demystify the US market for Italian wineries through interviews of experts in sales and distribution, social media, communications, and so much more. We will quiz each of our esteemed guests at the end of each episode to solidify the lessons that we've learned to sharpen your pencils, get out your notebooks, and join us each week to learn more about the US market. Hello. Welcome to Masterclass US wine market. Today, I'm thrilled to welcome Kevin Citters to the Italian wide podcast. Kevin, a former twenty year Silicon Valley investment banker, started VIN Connect in two thousand eleven to connect top wineries in Europe with top consumers. Today, VIN Connect enables US customers to buy hearts of my wines directly from more than eighty of the world's top estates in France, Italy, Germany, Spain, and beyond. Typically before those wines are available to the US market. Welcome to the shop, Kevin. It's really great to have you here. Well, thanks very much. It's, it's a pleasure to be on. I appreciate you asking. Of course. So we're gonna talk to Kevin about how Italian wineries can sell direct to consumer in the US, really interesting topic that I think our listeners are gonna really enjoy learning more about. But before we dive into today's discussion, tell us a little bit more about your story and what led you to start VIN Connect back in two thousand and eleven. Sure. You know, I the story really isn't a whole lot more complicated than me deciding to, sort of, be my be my first consumer in the sense that I had a number of, European wines that I enjoyed buying and, you know, collecting if you will on a pretty regular basis. I had trouble buying those wines in my local market here in the state of Virginia in the US, and having had experience with the US direct to consumer model myself as a consumer of a bunch of wines from California I wondered sort of allowed to myself why I didn't have that same opportunity to buy the wines that I love direct from wineries in Europe. Right. Realize that there were reasons that you couldn't do that. And then set about trying to find a way myself to create the opportunity for folks like me to get the wines that they they really loved directly and over the course of about a a year of hard work and, creativity was able to come up with, a way for us to do that. Right. So, I mean, it sounds like VINConnect really started as a solution to problem. You as a wine consumer were experiencing yourself. Yeah. Absolutely. You say, you know, a lot of great entrepreneurial ideas are, you know, a person solving the problem that, they themselves once solved, then, you know, that has much broader applicable ability. And, certainly, we've seen that within connected going on, you know, twelve years in business now. Right. And also, it gives you a pretty in-depth understanding of your target audience Yeah. Exactly. The service not all the customers are exactly like me, but, but there there is a pretty sizable population of folks out there that see the same issues and and have the same needs, and we're just happy to be able to help them out. Definitely. So, Kevin, in this episode, we're gonna talk a little bit more about the how, how can Italian winery sell their wines direct to consumers in the US market through VIN Connect, but just talking about that topic more generally. So our three key takeaways for today's master class and what we're really excited to talk to you about are number one, how does a DTC model specifically a mailing list wine club model like VIN Connect work for imported wine in the US? Number two, what are the benefits and opportunities of selling wine direct to US consumers? And number three, what are some of the biggest opportunities for the Italian wine category specifically when it comes to selling wine direct? Let's just dive in and and just for starters, tell us how VIN Connect works. So, you know, say you said you spent a long year figuring it out. So tell us a little bit more about what you discovered when you were starting VIN Connect. Sure. There there are really sort of two ways to look at it. So the first is, you know, how does it work for wineries and then secondly, how it works for customers? From the winery perspective, it really all starts with the creation of a mailing list, which is to say finding an audience of customers who will sign up to receive information from the wineries and opportunities to purchase. That information can come from, wineries, themselves in information they've gathered through hospitality or social media or other ways. Or it can come from the relationships that they've built over many years with customers in the US. Generally, that's just by virtue of building a great brand and a lot of name recognition so that their wines are very much in demand here in the US. Right. So as long as we've got, a winery with with really good visibility and a lot of existing sort of customer relationships, what we do first is then launch them on our website. So we create a, a profile if you will that sort of announces to the world that there is a mailing list open for a particular winery here in the US. Okay. Then we help the wineries grow that list by promoting it to our existing population, promoting it with customers here in the US. Advertising in Google. Mhmm. So that if you're in the US and searching for a wine from one of our partners, you'll see an ad from us that says, hey, you know, there's a mailing list. Go here and sign up. Okay. All of that serves to build a population of a winery's mailing list. Mhmm. And then once we have a population for a particular winery periodically, that can be a couple of times a year, then we'll send an email out to that population. Customers will have about two weeks to order. All of those orders come to VIN Connect. We make one purchase order with the winery or with the importer. Okay. They deliver a palette of wines to our warehouse, and we repackage those into seventy three UPS packages that go out across the country. But okay. So tell us a little more, I mean, how when it comes to starting this type of relationship with VIN Connect, you mentioned that, you know, wineries have to have a presence and a following talk to us a little bit more about that, what that means specifically for you. Is it a certain number of emails, sign ups, Instagram followers, what do you consider viable opportunity for a VIN Connect winery partner? Yeah. That's it's a really good question. And and I'll give you a little bit of a nebulous answer. You know, it it it really gets back to to what I said earlier about, in in terms of sort of brand recognition and and visibility. You know, we help wineries find the customers they've already created in the US. Over again years and decades of market work and brand building and high wide spectator ratings and visibility, you know, in markets and those sorts of things. What we're not able to do is to, create customers out of nowhere. So for brands that don't have a lot of visibility or awareness in the US market, you know, we're we're not a vehicle for helping them get visibility. So, you know, the way we like to say it is we help the wineries sell their wine to their customers. Got it. Customers they've already created. More so, you know, other people talk about direct to consumer, but really what those folks are doing is, you know, you might have There are lots of businesses with an MS or an MW, someone who's built a brand around themselves and their personality. Mhmm. They will do a lot of business sending emails to a list of customers they've created to sell you know, sort of direct to consumer in their words. Right. But in that case, they're selling a winery's wine to their customers. Mhmm. The personalities customer is not the winery's customers. And that's really the fundamental difference between what we do at VIN Connect and what some other folks do. Really? Okay. That makes sense. So your your offerings to your consumers are really tailored to the wineries as well. I mean, they're not you're not necessarily grouping a whole bunch of wineries together. You're sending out more individually. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Not yet. Each winery has their own separate mailing list. Right. And and so the customers, you know, sign up for can sign up for just one individual winery or for several, but each of the communications comes from the winery on the winery's letterhead with the winery's approval directly to that winery specific audience. Got it. Got it. And so a way to think about it for for people who are here in the US and maybe more familiar with the model, In the US, the wineries do this themselves because they have a team of people who just manage the mailing list and communicate with their audience. For the wineries outside the US, they would do this themselves if they had a team of people available to do it and the knowledge of how this model works. Since they don't have that in the way that domestic wineries do, that's the role that we really serve, is we're sort of their outsourced US direct to consumer marketing department. Mhmm. If you wanna think about it that way, who works in consultation with them to sell their wine to to their audience. Got it. Got it. Now that that that makes a lot of sense, and it's a huge value add to, I'm sure, your winery partners. So talk to us a little bit about your winery partners. What's the relationship like for you and a winery partner? What do they like most about VIN Connect as well? Sure. So, generally, again, because most of the wineries, almost all the wineries we work with are highly visible in the US market, pretty much everyone that we works with has an existing, distribution relationship in the US, typically a pretty significant one. You know, there are two general models for that. One model is using a single national importer. So they're the winery is selling to one person in the US, and that person then is reselling to distributors in, you know, across the country in maybe all fifty states. The other model is where the winery is selling direct to distributors in the US, and so they might have ten or fifteen or twenty different relationships. The way it works, the way we interface with that existing channel is, you know, obviously, we're coordinating with the wineries themselves on what wines they wanna offer, how they wanna price them, when they wanna do new releases. Again, the winery gets to make all of those choices. And then, you know, as it, relates to the logistics, if there is a single national importer, typically the wineries want us to buy from the importer. So we're taking goods that are already here in the US. If they're selling direct to distributors, typically, then we just buy directly from the winery like the other seventeen distributors do, and we're just one more direct relationship. So in those cases, we're doing the importing ourselves. For us, it doesn't really matter. We can work either way. It really just depends on what the winery's existing channels are and how we can, you know, fit in with what they've already built. Okay. That makes sense. So you're flexible to really work in in either model that the winery prefers. Based on their distribution. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And then in terms of, you know, what it is they they like about what we do or or, what they find valuable, you know, there are several things. You know, I think first and foremost is that you know, over the last, you know, call it twenty or twenty five years, wineries outside the US have gotten much more sophisticated and intentional about things like hospitality and marketing. They've seen how things work in the US and and as more and more Americans that are traveling abroad and wanting to experience, you know, wine tasting and other geographies having maybe had their fill of, Napa Valley. The wineries have responded by getting more sophisticated about what they offer in terms of hospitality. But today, you know, that offering sort of ends the moment that the American consumer walks out the door, you know, that they they will spend the wineries a couple of hours, you know, with a customer and open hundreds of euros worth of wine, and then the customer sort of walks out the door and and all the wineries left to do is hope that someday weeks or months from now when they're back in the US standing in front of the wall of wine. At the wine shop, they'll remember that place they tasted in Tuscany on their honeymoon and take that bottle off the shelf. You know, that's that's a lot of investment and and and a fairly speculative investment if you think about it that way. And really what we do at VIN Connect is help the Wires maintain that investment, maintain that connection with the customer they've invested time and money in. So that when they go back to the US, three months or six months from now, the winery has their email address and can continue the relationship by, not only communicating with the customers, but actually selling them stuff as well. Right. Okay. You know, the wineries who who, you know, it it's often sort of a revelation in the sense that when we send, emails on the wineries behalf, you know, the customers will write back and and and their absolutely thrilled to take their wallet out and give money to the winery that treated them so well, you know, six months or a year before. And, you know, the winery is, you know, have the opportunity to to sort of, feel the the return on the investment, both emotional and economic of, you know, the great work they're doing in hospitality. And so so maintaining and building on that investment in hospitality is probably the the single biggest thing that the wineries really appreciate out of what we do, it allows them to sort of close that loop if you think about it that way. Yeah. I was gonna say it allows them to integrate their marketing efforts and what they're doing maybe on at the estate with what they're doing, investing in the US market through through media, through other marketing efforts and tactics as well. And and do they look at this as a additional stream when they come when they look at it in relation to their importer, and distributor relationships, like, how are they looking at VIN Connect as a part of their overall US sales and marketing strategy? Yeah. No. That's a great question. You know, I I guess I can try to answer it a couple of different ways. You know, in terms of volume, So most of our wineries were probably a single digit percentage of the business they do in the US, maybe a small single digit percentage Okay. In terms of dollars. Right. However, in terms of sort of marketing and branding, You know, the customers who are opting in to join the mailing list for a winery, they're giving the winery permission to come into their email inbox, you know, to lend their ear to hear the have the winery tell them stories, Right. That population of customers is typically the most, passionate, knowledgeable brand aware, brand attached customer. That makes sense. It's it's a very strategic customer in the sense that, you know, the the the customer who, you know, came to Tuscany on their honeymoon and spent three hours at, the winery You know, when they come back to the US, they wanna buy that wine every year. They wanna drink it every year on their honeymoon. They wanna tell the story to their friends in their neighborhood at dinner parties of this incredible place that they tasted in Tuscany and the sun was setting and the swan was flying across the pond, and they have this incredible you know, so so it's a very strategic and influential set of customers from a brand development perspective. And so in that sense, it may be small in terms of volume, but it really is important in terms of the winery sort of longer term brand strategies, I think. And so maintaining a connection with these customers that can be very influential, we think is, is a real value added. The wineries appreciate as well. Definitely. And I think, you know, as we were talking about travel experiences, there's ways to market to that audience beyond selling them a bottle of wine. Right? There could be a way to entice them to come back to your winery or engage with them in a different way. So talk to us a little bit more when it comes to the VIN Connect consumer. Beyond the the physical bottle of wine, what else are they looking for when it comes to the interactions with with these winery partners? Sure. Well, that that again, it's another really good question. You know, I think the customers similar to wineries have an interest in maintaining that relationship when they get the chance to to experience the kinds of hospitality that that they get in you know, generally in Europe or or more specifically in Italy. It's, so enjoyable, so pleasurable, and it's something, you know, that they want to be able to remember and relive, I think. And so the customer has a real incentive to to wanna maintain that relationship, you know, getting an email a couple of times a year from the winemaker that they met on the trip helps them to relive the experience and enjoy it again, I think. And so maintaining that connection, I think, has emotional value. Mhmm. And then, you know, on the wine side as well, recall that, you know, most of the wines that we're working with, you know, are available here in the US market. Sometimes where the wineries are releasing things that are special or collectible or what have you, and we can talk about that. But oftentimes, many of the items are are available here. And so theoretically, the customer could get them somewhere else. But what they particularly appreciate about being on the mailing list is it's convenient. You know, the the wine sort of finds them. They don't have to go looking for it. And depending on where you live in the US, that can be, you know, sometimes very difficult to find a particular wine from a producer in certain geography. You know, provenance is another thing that's important, knowing that the lines have gotten gear and traveled through winery approved channels as opposed to things like, you know, gray market or what have you. Yeah. That's huge. And then, you know, the other real opportunity is is against some of these, you know, hard to find items, limited production items, large formats, small formats. You know, there are a lot of things that wineries make that are rare or harder to get or or aren't you know, wineries might produce, you know, twenty different skews, but the US importer only takes five. But there are other stories about the winery or wines that they produce that they want their passionate customers to really know and appreciate about them. And, you know, those are things that we can deliver through this channel in a way that's just sort of not economic for the the the US importer to to try to deal with. Yeah. That's interesting. So there's also the opportunity we've been connect for a winery maybe to sell in different products that they're not selling through their distributor, their importer or partners as well. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's as much, you know, again, about sort of marketing as it is sales in that, you know, if a winery makes a crazy dessert wine one year in small volume because they forgot to harvest a particular plot and it came in late. Mhmm. You know, they they may only have a a barrel or a couple of barrels of that, and that may not be a huge economic victory for them, but the opportunity to tell the story of that vintage and the circumstances that happened and this crazy thing. They only produced in one year, and we wanna share it with the people that we know are passionate about it will really get it and appreciate it. You know, the value of the the marketing experience of that for customers, you know, goes far beyond the the the dollar value of the sales they'll make from those bottles. And so those can even things that are small in volume can have a lot of emotional impact. Wind wine business forum. Everything you need to get ahead in the world of wine, supersize your business network. Share business ideas with the biggest voices in the industry. Join us in Verona on November thirteen to fourteen twenty twenty three. Tickets available now at point wine dot net. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And it makes me kind of the next question I had was gonna be about what are you selling in terms of price points and formats, you know, we see I looked up some of the data from sovos around DTC shipments in the US, and we've seen, a decrease recently from twenty twenty one to twenty twenty two, but we have seen an increase in the luxury end. With wines over a hundred dollars performing especially while and increasing in market share for for DTC, you know, almost eight percent by volume. So where's the opportunity in the US market for Italian wineries that are selling direct in terms of product mix? Where do you think, you know, price point, wine styles, wine categories, talk to us a little bit about what you're seeing in your experience with VIN Connect? So I I would say that the, you know, the the customer generally speaking of a winery mailing list looks a little more like a a collector kind of person, I would say. It's typically someone who's got, you know, some ability to store wine at home. You know, they're they're buying wine and storing it and consuming it over time as opposed to you know, picking up something from the store on the way home to have a dinner that night. You know, I would think the vast, vast majority of our customers are on mailing lists for US wineries as well. And so they sort of are have a sophisticated understanding of how that relationship works. And so And they're used to buying wine that way. Right? They're they're covering wine through email and buying wine online. Yep. Yep. So so think of this as collector kinds of people. So generally, the wines that that audience is looking to buy, you know, as you noted in the data, you, you know, sort of, to the higher end of the price scheme, you know, across VIN Connect, what we see at our wineries. And, you know, it's really winery dependent. Some wineries have, you know, a less expensive product mix. Some wineries have a more expensive product mix. But across all of Vincanacti, in our TTC model, we see about seventy five dollars a bottle, I would say, is probably our average. The average order is probably about four hundred dollars. So think of a six pack of seventy five dollar bottles maybe. And is that a current that a normal format that wineries are selling through in six packs, single bottles, like, where or it really depends on the winery. You know, customers can buy typically whatever they want. Again, it sort of depends on on how the winery wants to do it, but generally speaking, you know, we'll take orders for individual bottles and up. Doesn't really matter to us because, you know, at the end of the day, what we're doing is batching up for one single PO with the winery. You know, we're not able to do ad hoc orders. So you know, the higher and more collectible lines are more typical what would go through this channel. If you see it in a grocery store on the bottom shelf, it's really not appropriate. And, you know, one way to to think about that is The cost to get the wine from our warehouse to the end consumer runs about five dollars a bottle roughly. And so on anything that retails, you know, below twenty or twenty five dollars a bottle, you know, five dollars a bottle to ship something that only costs twenty or twenty five eats up a a a big part of the economics. And so, you know, the model sort of breaks down at at higher volume lower price point things. It doesn't mean it's impossible for us to do those things, but it's It just skews toward items that are are generally kinda more expensive. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So, I mean, Kevin, knowing your consumer is more in that collector consumer audience, they're buying higher price point wines, What opportunities are there with VIN Connect when it comes to investment and investment worthy wines? You you mentioned also that oftentimes being Connect is offering wines before they're released or wines that cannot be accessed in the market. So talk to us a little bit about why as an investment tool and then connect? I tell you, you know, that that's a really interesting point. There there's a lot of, I think, buzz in the investment world these days about wine as a category. You know, it's an uncorrelated investment. Relative to the stock market, returns in the last fifteen years have been fantastic and consistent. You know, I I have my own sort of personal feelings about wine as an investment tool, and and those really are you know, there are, collectors and there are, investors. And and to me, those are different things. I like to advise people who are are interested in wine that, you know, really you should be buying it to to enjoy it. And for appreciation. And maybe there's two kinds of appreciation, the consumption appreciation and the opportunity perhaps for some economic appreciation. Right. But, yeah, speculating on investments in wine, I think is, is really just that speculation. For those who who who want to study history, you know, there have been a lot of shady dealings in and around historical various kinds of investment vehicles tailored around wine. Lots of frauds, forgeries, Ponzi schemes, and things like that. Oh, yeah. Lots of movies, documentaries shows out there about them too. And and and so, you know, you know, my view is if you enjoy wine, you enjoy collecting wine, you know, buy the things you like, buy the things you plan to drink. If you have the opportunity to to buy two cases now and sell one ten years from now, and that pays for both of them. You know, because of the appreciation over time. You know, that's a great way to do it, but but simply focusing on trying to speculate and I think is a challenge. You know, as it relates to to the winery perspective on that, You know, it's an interesting question. How do wines become collectible? How do wines become things that get speculated upon? And that to me really just goes back to making products that people fall in love with that generate tremendous amounts of demand you know, we should all be so lucky is to think of ways and ideas to create things that everyone wants to buy. But that's, you know, that's that's really how, you know, over many years, Bordeaux and Burgundy have become categories of collectible. You know, certainly in the Italian context. There are certain, super tuscans and and other specific wines in certain regions have acquired an error of collectability by, again, delivering, you know, tremendous consistency and quality over the years. But, you know, at the end of the day, those things happen through the execution of, delivering great value over time. You can't just, you know, have an idea one day and create a wine that, you know, people will follow all over themselves to spend five hundred dollars a bottle on. And so collectability is sort of a result of the great stuff. It's not you can't sort of intend it. I don't think necessarily. Right. Right. Yeah. I think that's a really really good lesson and good point that it's not about setting out there with a business plan to create a collectible wine. It's doing all the right things, building a following, and like you said, delivering that consistent product. Yeah. And it's it's been you know, with with with some of the Italian wines now moving into the plots in Bordeaux, you know, I think that's a a a a an attempt to use some of the leverage and signaling that comes from the plots. If you will to to signal collectability. You know, I don't have lots of my own primary data. You might, about how some of the Italian wines that have moved to the place have done through that channel. I mean, certainly, it, you know, can access more more markets kind of globally maybe than they could get to otherwise themselves. But, but I would think, you know, that's an example of an attempt to increase the collectability if you will of of of certain top Italian ones. Definitely. Are there any, you know, categories you see on the horizon for Italy becoming more collect or worthy, or is it the tried and true, you know, we think of Guillo and we think of Super Tuscan. But are there any other categories perhaps you're starting to see the VIN Connect customer gravitating towards or just become more collector worthy? That's a it's an interesting question to think about it that way. You know, certainly, I would say, you know, historically, the super tuscan category and, barolo would be the most prominent. You know, I think as some all ye's have you know, try to go beyond some of the traditional areas and, open the aperture maybe in their perspective somewhere more more broadly to to continue to find innovative things to share with consumers that other regions in Italy and other specific wines in Italy are getting more sort of, visibility in in certain areas, in certain places. You know, we work with, Illinois. Their wine catalog, you know, is is the only wine in the world made from a particular grape. You know, there's a really unique story behind that. And so, you know, I think certain specific wineries and certain geographic pockets have have been able to get some visibility in in some of those directions and and, you know, whether that continues will be interesting to see. But, you know, I'd say my general observation would be an an openness from collectors to seek things beyond just some of those traditional regions Sort of for just that reason. I mean, everyone always wants to find the next cool thing that Definitely. People haven't had or don't know about that really is fantastic. And it might be, you know, Valentini Treviana or, you know, Miami Wines or or what have you. There are so many great and amazing minds made today in in, you know, all over Italy, that are increasingly being discovered and and shared and appreciated throughout the US. Absolutely. Well, it'll be interesting to see. We'll keep an eye on things, right, and and see how it evolves and maybe come back in a couple years and and have a follow-up. But until then, as we wind down, Kevin, you know, we like to end every episode with our rapid fire quiz where we'll ask our guests three questions that help our listeners really better understand the US market. So question number one, and if you can do your best to answer these in one or two sentences, please. What is your number one tip for mastering the US wide market? My number one tip. I would say that Mastering the US wine market is needs to be done through a full commitment to it. It is so big and so diverse and so complex that you really need to want to master it by investing your own time and effort into it. Really great tip. An important reminder as well. Okay. Number two, what is something you might have told your younger professional self about the US wine market and just working in wine in general? Yeah. I would I would not have realized. It's taken me a long time to realize the degree to which to have success in the US market, producers themselves need to be physically present in the market. Simply hiring an importer and that importer having distributors to theoretically cover the US market is wholly insufficient in selling your wine. What it requires regardless of all that other infrastructure you have is Why are representatives physically on the ground in front of the importer in front of the distributors, in front of the accounts, in front of the consumers doing the blocking and tackling on a day to day basis to really make a difference in the US market? It's unfortunate that that's the reality, but I think it really is a reality. And the more wineries can embrace that here, the more success they will have. Right. And the more they can just build that into their plan for the the get go with with the US marketing plan. Sounds like the better off they'll be in the long run. And filing number three, we all travel a lot in this industry. Like you just say, you have to be in the market. So what is your number one favorite travel hack when you're out there traveling for work? My favorite travel hack. Let's see. Well, you know, one thing that that I do personally is, try to find something throughout your travels that is a theme that brings you pleasure personally beyond the business stuff. We all work so hard when we're traveling to maximize the productivity of our time, that I think it's oftentimes easy for me and for others to to forget to take some time to enjoy a little bit. What I do for myself is I'm a big sports fan. And so in my various travels, I've tried to carve out time to go to some of the great sporting venues throughout the world throughout Europe. Good, buddy. I've been to, football matches in, Milan and not believe been to the Shonda France and watch two of the best rugby teams in the world play, you know, and those memories of those specific events and, you know, looking forward to them and then reflecting on them are things that can keep you going through you know, weeks and weeks on the road ahead of time. So, you know, that that's my, you know, personal thing. I'm a fan of. I'm sure everybody has their own things, but trying to carve out time for something like that on each trip, really gives me something to look forward to and to remember. And Yeah. And if if you want a single individual travel hack, I guess my the the best thing I've learned over the years is compression socks on long distance flights. Life savers. Definitely. There you go. Yes. Well, Kevin, thank you so much for joining us today at the Italian White Podcast. How can our listeners connect with you? Yeah. The best way to to to find me if they wanna learn more, or they can go to our website, which is vin connect dot com. There's information on there about how you today. Stay tuned to each week for new episodes of Master Class US wine market with me, Juliaangelo. I remember if you enjoyed today's show, hit the like and follow-up button for your introduction, chat with anyone who'd like more information. Okay. Fantastic. Well, thank you again, Kevin. It's great to have you here. Really appreciate having me on. Thanks very much.