Ep. 624 Erin DeMara | Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Thanks for tuning into my new show. Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. I'm Steve Ray, author of the book how to get US Market Ready. And in my previous podcast, I shared some of the lessons I've learned from thirty years in wine and spirits business helping brands enter and grow in the US market. This series will be dedicated to the personalities who have been working in the Italian wine sector in the US, their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. I'll uncover the roads that they walked shedding light on current trends, business strategies, and their unique brands. So thanks for listening in, and let's get to the interview. Before the show, here's the shout out to our new sponsor, Feroine. Feroine has been the largest wine shop in Italy since nineteen twenty. They have generously supplied us with our new t shirt. Would you like one? Just don't add fifty euros and it's all yours. Plus, we'll throw in our new book jumbo shrimp guide to international grape varieties in Italy. For more info, go to Italiancoin Podcast dot com and click donate or check out Italian wine podcast on Instagram. Hi. This is Steve Ray. Welcome to this week's show. This week, I'm pleased to have his guest, Aaron Demara, who's with zoning eighteen twenty one. He also attended the most recent Via Academy, in Italy International Academy, the deep dive training in, Italian wide, and for the second time. So, Aaron, why don't you tell us a little bit about your personal background how you got here, and then we'll dig a little bit deeper into Yeah. Great. Thanks, Steve. I've been I've I've worked for, Zulu eighteen twenty one now for, six and a half years. That's the parent company from Italy owned by the Zonian family. They own, eleven wineries worldwide. And, the company I work for based out of, Florida for the US is the import arm of the family. So we handle, I handle all of Florida, most of Florida, managing that portfolio with our distributor partners. And I've been in Italian wine now for, I'd say, close to twenty five years. Working with it in different capacities. Grew up in Chicago, and not in a wine family. So my professional goal was to, was to be a teacher, even in a graduate program with the idea of getting a PhD in American history and working my way through school bartending, managing restaurants and, lucky enough to work for a big Italian restaurant while I was, in my second, third year of a graduate school, and, caught the wine bug at that point. So instead of defending my thesis, I, told my wife at that time that I was gonna figure out how to work in the wine business. So what, I I find it pretty common, at least from the people I, I interview on this, but also pretty much everyone I know in the line in that everybody has kind of this seminal moment where they, they can point to and say, that was the point in my life when lying became really important to me or I discovered or tasted something for the first time. What was your, critical moment like that? Yeah. You know, I I definitely had one. It's it's I don't bring it very often because, you know, in the wine business, there's a lot of a lot of sommeliers and I wanna be able to, like, the humble brag about all the great wines that they've tasted. And I've been fortunate in that respect, over the years, but remember there was one time when, you know, I had one customer in a snowy evening that, that shared a a really unique bottle of wine with me. Actually, remember it now, it's, those expensive thing we had on the list, I think, at the time, nineteen seventy eight, Gaya Sori San Lorenzo. And, first, it was impressive that you ordered the bottle because I've never seen anyone, buy one. I still remember this day, and this was nineteen ninety six. It was three hundred and seventy five dollars. Which seemed like a lot of money back at that time. Those wines, I certainly go out from them. And he said to me, I'm not gonna drink this whole thing. Pull up a glass, which I assume meant that he would offer me a taste. No. He poured me a full glass. And we sat that night at the bar and just talked wine, you know, you know, for what little I knew, and and, he was an Italian wine fan. And I realized that, you know, in that class in my hand that time that that wine could be a lot get involved in a glass in your mouth and, it kinda may open my eyes and maybe want to really explore, well, find other experiences like that certainly. And that's That's always been, my goal is we all had a chance to take that one again. Not a lot of people have, but, Yeah. I I I find it it's, it's kind of a great equalizer that you're all concentrating on if that's your passion. All of a sudden, you're concentrating what the taste is. How you experience it, not just with the tastes and the flavors, and we'll get into the jargon, the discussion about jargon and its use. But the enjoyment of it, that's shared And I don't care if it would be the president of the United States or some guys sweeping up litter on the streets of, New Delhi, India. If you share a love for wine, all of a sudden, that's what you're talking about. And, it facilitates meeting and traveling and all the other things that that have happened. So before you got to Zonene though, you worked at, Wind Wave and then Palm Bay. I moved to Florida, nineteen ninety eight. So I've been down quite a while. And, a very different wines he initially, when I lived there. And, went to the distributor side after leaving the restaurant business. My wife was tired of me working nights and weekends. It's been worked, a small distributor, a large distributor, and then was lucky enough to get a position pretty early on in my distribution career as some people think it, working for an import company, a private company called Wind Wave based out of New York, but I built a very nice portfolio, about twenty producers, some some bigger names from Barolo, Bernelo, Preco business. And also at that time, handled the state wines of the zoning family. So I worked for, for Wind Wave in Florida, in, that market manager. Just shy of five years. The company was sold to a bigger company. I moved to another large distributor portfolio. In a way that you you kinda look for those next, experiences and opportunities. And, that was a little more travel than my wife and I were used to especially with, with young kids. So I did leave the business for, for a short time. Little consulting, mostly stay home with my infant daughters. And then, you know, for a couple years, kind of plan the, you know, the the next move, whether it was going to be, you know, back into the restaurant business or, back into the the import side and that distribution side, which I found I really loved, you know, having a portfolio to really embrace to understand, wrap my arms around and become become the educator of those wines, which was always that more internal passion line, in terms of teaching. So, originally in two thousand thirteen, the zoning family came calling with the idea that they were going to create, a more fine wine centered team in, in key markets around the country. You know, these prestigious account development managers as they as they called originally. The funny part was that I had a meeting actually flew me to, to the home office in December of two thousand thirteen, and it took almost a year and a half more to actually create the positions That that's great, though. I mean, to have a position created, that's really ideal for why you want me. It sounds like I'll take that job. Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's often how, the Italians move on certain business timelines. So it it didn't quite surprise me. As I mentioned at the beginning, you know, it's been, six and a half years. You know, the portfolio grows. It's a pretty dynamic family. And it's a different model than, you know, most other attritional imports of the US. Where as you've known for years, you know, brands will change hands. They'll move around. And in this case, the family, which and they are the largest private, vineyard owners in in Italy, they own all of the businesses. They employ all the, the winemakers, the vineyards, and, of course, you know, their import, arms in, in the US, in the UK and China, they do all directly. So you've had some experience, some deep experience working both on the import side and also on the distributor side. And I'm very interested in digging into that. And what what are the different functions on the two sides? I mean, they're very related. How do you see the difference in where is your level of enjoyment? Think it's twofold. If you're working just a distributor, you have in most cases, you have a very large portfolio. And so you're trying to balance out the needs of all of your domestic and importer suppliers pair with the needs of of your your customers as in my role where I'm really, you know, focused on that's about a hundred lines. You know, I can think of those as my only focus. And so not only am I helping to manage, you know, those sales expectations within the distributor sales, but I can go to the street level. I can be the expert, for those hotel buyers, retail and restaurant. Buyers, and even their customers. You know, from this level, though, we sometimes joke that you you often end up selling the wine three times. You know, if it's a new item, something that's a little more obscure, and it's it's actually, you know, working with Italian wines, and we have to really sell the wine into, my distributor management and then help their Salesforce sell it into their restaurant customers and then go do a wind dinner or a consumer tasting that third time to get it into the the hands of, of the end user, the actual consumer. But, you know, in most cases with with most wines, at least initially, that's how they're built. So back to the difference between importer and distributor, where do you feel most comfortable? I feel most comfortable on, on the import side. You know, I like being part of that liaison between, you know, these hundreds of families, in, in my case, you know, in Italy, Chile. We also have other brands that we're bringing in, but, you know, being that representative of a portfolio being identified, with a, say, a certain type of wine. So, you know, having sold wine in Florida now for twenty years, most of it being Italian. You know, it's two things that customers recognize. I haven't been able to shave my goatee in, like, twenty years. In the market. And also, but but I, you know, I'm a go to person for Italian wine questions, even sometimes if they're not my, you know, my direct brand. So you're the the go to guy with the goatee. Yeah. Okay. So let's let's circle back to, the Natalie International Academy, which we've been talking about. You you've participated in it twice. You know the challenges of it. You did I think top of your glass the first time and the second time you did it, but you did not qualify for Italian Mind Expert, which is the peak of the peak of the peak. You had some experience with, was it a quirk of master songs or I've been through the quartermaster sublease, or I've been through the consolidate model indicators. Tell us about the VA Academy and what you see as the benefit to you and benefit to others who might be considered it. And then we'll get into the details of of, the course itself and how challenging it But why did you do it and what is Via all about? Via to me is, is the most important Italian wine education platform that's yet been created. It is, you know, it it it's a it's a deep dive into, you know, initially, it could be all the the native grapes, of Italy, and has involved, very nicely into really you know, creating a, an education system where you understand the grapes of Italy, the wines that created from them, the regions, from which they come, the soils, the local, foods, It it it's it's more all encompassing than anything I've ever experienced in any particular, you know, one education. Is that because of it's focused on one country or is it a level of academic rigor? Well, it's certainly both, you know, when I've been through other wine programs. And when you talk to people that then, you know, start receiving France in California and and eventually move on to Italy, it's often the last country they wanna tackle because it's the most complex. Because the pronunciations can be, you know, laborious. And and there's there there's just so much to know. And there are so many important wines to know that you can't discount, you know, more than say, you know, a hundred or two hundred different wines and still leave you two or three hundred to to really have to understand to to know that country. And talk about how the, the program has evolved from the first time you did it to the second time. Well, I first heard about it I believe in two thousand seventeen, it had been, I think at that time it was second or third year, a, a wine and food writer and blogger from Atlanta that I knew, getting to the program. And the classrooms were much smaller than, and it really was focused on a single textbook by Ian Agara called the native grapes of Italy, which is an absolute tomb, you know, compendium of of all things out each grape, that is, a perfect bedtime reading if you suffer from any kind of insomnia but a great reference if you love Italian wine and grapes. And the evolution, has become more encompassing because, well, two things. Henry Duvard and Sarah Heller, who have taken over as the the the main educators Henry was the first to ever pass Ian's test to the, the expert level on this first try, which Steven will always, including the conversation that that she has an ordinary And then Sarah Heller, a master of wine. I believe when she became a master of wine was the, youngest woman ever to pass that test. So two really, knowledgeable, wine people, especially Henry who comes from Italian wine background. And they looked at this program and wanted to really make it more about Italy and not just about the grapes. So studying fewer of the the clones and the biotypes, and more about you know, why we're making wine, and what kind of wine are making from those grapes and why each region has developed its wine culture the way it has. So with the, influence of professor Tadeushenza, who I think mostly regard as the most important, person in the Italian wine business and one of the most influential in in, you know, viticulture analogy around the world. He's brought a level of understanding of Let's call it the base of, of Italian Y Meaning. He's an expert in geology, also, anthology, empology, the study of, of which grapes are which, and, and, you know, the DNA analysis of, figuring out which grapes are related. And so, you combine that then with, a deeper dive into the the history of the peninsula, which is in itself fascinating, you know, pre, you know, pre Roman Greek peoples and the Greeks and the the Roman Empire and the and the the minute cheese. And so it makes for this incredible, mosaic of, of information, of of layers of knowledge that all at certain points have to be mastered. To, to pass this exam. You know, and mention this Italian one expert level that I'm trying to achieve. There's four parts of the exam, and, a total of sixty five percent is needed to to pass. Which is still, you know, quite rigorous given the the level of details that can be, you know, part and parcel of these questions. It requires ninety percent efficiency to then qualify to sit for the expert level exam. So you're blind tasting two wines. You're answering a hundred multiple choice questions, writing, two essays and doing a group project, and that's the Via Academy. The expert level is then, blind tasting six wines and then doing an oral defense of your blind tasting, in front of, you know, the panel of, of experts. Wow. Poohoo. And will it bring me any, you know, any reward or any fame it certainly won't change my my current role with my company. There's there's no big there's no big check that they hold up, next to your name, like you won some prize. It's it's for me, you know, you know, a personal goal, because I want to be included with with those other, you know, fourteen that hold the gold pin. Okay. So you clearly had, a passion for it. You had, a lot of experience working with Italian once in general at both the, important distributor level and then working with one particular company understanding of their rights. I can understand, you know, and the job that you have, how it's gonna be of, of great value to you. What about other people who may not have a specific focus on Italian wine, but still, have that yearning to yearn to learn? I this program may actually be more important for those people that are right on the cost of saying, do I want to spend a little bit of time and make a deep dive in the Italian wine? And there there's no more perfect, program for it than than the Italy academy. Because they they you start with, you start with a syllabus so that you have an understanding of what is expected of you to know. And there are, you know, what I love about, especially attending what they call the flagship program in verona, which is hosted once a year. It's generally a larger, classroom, about sixty people, versus to say the fifty or twenty that originally were included. And so it allows, Steve Kim and her team to invite you know, Italian enthusiasts, people in the industry from around the world. You know, then we have we have ambassadors from, I don't know, any countries it is now. It must be thirty or forty, you know, not only the United States and, in in Canada, Russia, China, Hong Kong, Japan, Australia, one from South Africa, at least one from South Africa. So people are coming from around the world. This is, it's it's building to a program that will be recognized worldwide just as the Court of Master Sommelier's is, or in this case, probably more akin to say a WSTT, the wine spirit's education trust, where you have layers of, of, qualification and, in layers of, you know, levels of knowledge that you that you aspire and and attain. So the program itself of people that wanna come to Italian wine or or work in the industry, they've they've pivoted with, with last year's, COVID shutdowns to where the the initial classroom was held online. It's about forty hours of of online video. You know, it it's expected that you, you know, do a lot of homework, in that time. That was where I was going. So that's there's the class, but then there's all the thing to get to the point where you can even qualify to get into the class. Know, it could be daunting to some people to to think about it, but, when I sat for the exam the first time in twenty nineteen, I spent probably a hundred hours preparing, not knowing quite what was on the test and created a, a four inch binder with a page for every grape and a page for every region, you know, into which I could then put more notes. I had come from a blind tasting background previously certified as a soleier in two thousand six. You know, of course, we work in the business, so we often taste wines critically. I even went so far as to go through the Society of wine educators, program to become a certified wine educator to kind of round out my my knowledge and my tasting skills so I would be more effective going through via. It that those kind of levels aren't necessarily required, but it does take some some self, discipline, some some self preparation so that, for example, this last, this last flagship course of, of VA and Verona, the classroom work was already done by the students that arrived. And so we spent three days really blind and and flight tasting wines from all over Italy. So you could assess five or six of the same type of big together. Get a real understanding for the differences that could be or in saving in one case. Twelve Amaroni, you know, with the with the with the principles of the producers, all there in front of us to answer questions and to sort of dialogue and to look at, you know, to me, it's very difficult to do, have twelve glasses of of some of the best amorone in in the world, you know, of course it all comes from that area, but, and to see each producer's, you know, expression of of this wine that we all think is, you know, a little more homogenous. So the the that twofold level of of education, tasting wine, tasting more Italian wines at one time than most people ever had the chance to do. It's I believe we averaged about eighty a day in terms of tasting, through the afternoon. Which to a lot of people sounds like, you know, the the best happy hour ever. Yeah. But it's certainly you you're still there to learn. So it's so Oh, it's critical. I mean, yeah. I mean, you're you're not there. Just enjoying me. The most important employees, the most important crew, you know, in this, in in via are the, you know, the the young ladies and men who take care of the, of the core and the glasses and the emptying and the spit buckets. Nothing moves about them. And making sure that it's correct. Yeah, I do know CB's team, quite well. I've spent a lot of time there with them and I'm very impressed by all the people who who work with her. She's, a pretty tough boss. I understand, but, we'll just leave it at that. So talk about some of the other students that you met, each each time in the class, and maybe some of the things that have happened to them and and how the class has benefited them, in their careers or personal lives? You know, I have so many friends from, from my two years of of via. And, in done a great job of of of connecting this community. More so than any other wine community that I've ever, been a part of. You know, so, I have another, ambassador friend who, lives in South Florida, in Miami, and, he came to Italian wine as a wine store owner. So after he, became an Italian wine ambassador, he opened in Houston, Florida, the first Italian focused wine school. Now it's many things like that have been have been put on pause because of, because of COVID, but you know, that is, you know, is his goal to be able to educate people at the, you know, at the consumer enthusiast level and then drive sales for his store. There are a couple of the tango wine experts, you know, in Canada that run nutritional wine schools with, with with with Via educating being part of, you know, their broader, goal of say WSTT or other line education platforms. A couple managers of, big portfolios Haley Black is, is a tiny white expert for a wonderful role in CFO. And then, yeah, and then some surprising, people that have passed because they don't come from it from a true, like, wine occasion background. You know, the marketing director for a Italian import company in New York. Just, you know, works for a company and said, I wanna be more of an Italian one enthusiast. So, Annie, you know, he studied in in past this year, in in verona, or, you know, one of, one of the more unusual, entrance in the nine in the two thousand nineteen, program, Kyle, who the time is a, a physician for the US Navy based in Sicily, you know, living in Italy, living a dream, I suppose you'd say, right? It didn't come to from a to a VA from any kind of wine background, but had the passion and had the the the drive. And when he passed, it it wasn't to surprise anyone, but it was, it was exciting to see people that can embrace, you know, Stevie's creation here and, and become, you know, Taiwan ambassadors. And I think anytime if you're an Italian wine business, you're sort of out there being a either a formal or informal ambassador, you know, for wines. Like we said, the test is not easy to pass. I have a couple of friends who've taken the exam a couple times, haven't quite got to that that level in in one form or another, but they're some of the best blind tasters that I know. And they run, you know, important either portfolios with distributors or have run, wine programs or some of the best restaurants or or retail stores in the US. So that little pin that we get at the end of the VA ceremony, doesn't define someone as a Taying wine expert or ambassador. But, any kind of exam like this, you should be putting yourself out there, setting yourself up occasionally for failure. And so, you know, even for me, pastor failed the first time, I knew I was going to to try and delight till I got to it. So let's turn it a little bit to talking about consumers. One of the issues, I have not taken via, and probably won't because I don't have that level of knowledge. The the good news is I know where I can find an information But, we also, we in the industry deal with consumers who don't know that much, don't care that much, want to know a little, sometimes I think about them as factoids like USA today, little snippets of information that don't really mean much, but give them something to talk about at dinner. And yet, oftentimes we'll have people over for dinner at our house and I'd say would you like an explanation of the line? And the answer is no. And then they get back to talking about whatever, you know, was the subject of how do you translate Or I you know so much. Right? And I imagine the desire there is to share, but most consumers don't know that level of detail. Exactly. It really is the old adage of, you know, if you ask me what time it is, you don't wanna hear me describe how a clock is made. And then and I always try to temper, you know, my, you know, my information and my enthusiasm if I can with with my with my, my audience. So like the last, say, consumer wine dinner I I did, which is one of the first ones after the reopening of COVID. You know, I mean, first and foremost, a point, this was a country club setting with about a hundred and fifty people. You know, this is not an Italian wine class. I'll tell semantic don't say, we'll share as much as you'd like to know about the wine. But if you want me to to give you a, you know, a seminar, we'll organize something different. The only thing about Taiwan is it as technical and and deep as as some information can be. The Italians don't ever really take it that seriously. You know, I was always taught, and I was lucky to work for the Italian some way. I you said, first and foremost, you know, this is a condiments on the table for for us. A condiment? Oh, for Italians? Yes. Yes. It it it's it's wine is part of the table setting, and it simply adds to, it adds to the meal, and you wouldn't have a meal without it. So, you know, we can share different information in different levels of of, of knowledge, you know, as I talked to, say, our distributors sales team, but I even might not give the same amount of information or some type of information that I'm talking to the, the restaurant and fine wine sales team versus the team at selling to grocery and retail chains. You only sort of need to know as much as you need to to to make the wine salable. And then for, you know, say friends of yours or friends of mine that come over for dinner, they don't wanna hear the technical information about how the wine was made. And that's like asking how the sausage is made. I wanna know what it goes with. Maybe something fun about the the town or the the winemaker, if you know it, or most often the case, you know, is there a second bottle that we can open? Last question before we get into the wrap up here is, what about smaller markets? You know, you're, you're working in the Florida market. I'm from New York originally. We tend to spend a lot of time and, you know, major markets like New York and San Francisco and Los Angeles, Miami, Chicago, and so forth. How is the applicable to Omaha and Atlanta and Denver and Minnesota and Michigan, you know, markets that aren't necessarily, you know, the more I study, the more I I I dive in Avia, and the more I work, you know, even just in Florida where I'm, I'm in some of these little, you know, these small towns and, you know, little markets, maybe via and and the Ambassador program or this this kind of Italian education is the most important in what we call in the US, those secondary markets, or tertiary markets. Because the exposure hasn't been nearly as prevalent. New York and Miami, they get all the wines, you know, and so their buyers are often quite exposed and experienced, with with the breadth of Italian wine. As are many of the, near the con of the consumers. But, you know, say the same in the Midwest, once you leave Chicago, the wine market certainly changes. And in much of the country, we talk about, you know, sweeter wines being, the most prevalent, lighter wines or domestic wines. But the, you know, the internet and all of these wine apps that are out there and available, certainly, I think they they bring some curiosity to a lot of people that, start going through you know, different wine apps, you know, listening to blogs and and podcasts certainly not only ours, but, you know, tell you why podcasts is the most important. But then if you're in a market where the wines you hear about aren't available, and there's no one, knowledgeable to be able to bring them in, mark them and sell them, then then you're missing a huge chunk of, at least in the United States of that American market that, may never see anything but a pinot grigio as a white wine on the title wine list. And the inoffensive flight one. Right. Yeah. That that's right. Well, I know that that issue, because they're, you know, it's probably the first generations of Via, they didn't actually they didn't actually teach Conabrizio because it's not a native Italian wine grape. Right. Right. It's a personal great. Obviously, you know, a couple hundred years ago with many with many others. But it's so important now that, of course, we have to address it. And it's great. It's, you know, I've watched the evolution of, say, you know, Italian wine drinking over my time in the business where Orvieto and Gave and, Treviano were the most important white wines on Italian wine lists. Pina Grizio, as I was taught by the first Sonya I had with the workforce, he said, Aaron Pina Grizio is for breakfast. You know, Bianca was for dinner. It's it's sort of a simplification of of that idea, but, I I like that. Yeah. That's good. But Peagrigio became that wine that, you know, that that filled that flavor niche of people. And, just like let's say the the big beer distributors don't dominate the beer market anymore. People have, you know, have explored past, you know, the the the light beers and the loggers, you know, but they still donate sales. Know, pinot grigio still has a place, and I still drink it, you know, on a regular basis, but it's it's it's become that springboard. We hope we're able to look at, you know, so many other, wines that, let's say, when you consider, you know, more interesting or, or, or or, you know, I won't say more important, but sometimes more fun. I I I much mean. Yeah. Okay. So let's bring that around. One of the things I like to do is to finish the interviews with, this broader question of what's a big takeaway. We talked about of things in your experiences with the role of place in the wine industry, particularly in America. Somebody was listening to this, and, you wanted to pull out one factor, one thought, one idea from what we talked about. What would it be? For me, that Italy is the most fascinating, wine region in the world. And, you know, the the Italy International Academy is only one avenue to to learn about it, but, it it's it's a country in a in a in a country of wines that, you know, that never disappoints that, that that always has something new to, to explore the range of flavors, styles, producers is unparalleled. You know, we talk about going through different levels of education, you know, different blind tastings. There's there's never an end to this wine, and one thing I've learned about Italy is I'm just realizing how much, there is still to learn. You know, I think we see that a lot, a lot a lot of industries, but, at least for me personally, you know, in this journey, there's no other avenue that's more fun than studying Italian wine, you know, or or maybe wine in general. You know, when I'm opening multiple bottles at home to, you know, to blind taste them together, my wife rolls her eyes and said, oh, you're doing homework again. Right. But the most important thing is that once my homework is done, you know, I can share that homework with, with my family and friends and and not a lot not a lot of other businesses allow you to do that. I had was having dinner one night in in verona and things got messed up about who we were going to meet with and when and where and all that kind of stuff. And I, I came out with this line, which turns out to be, I think, a pretty good line. In Italy, nothing works, but everything works out. And it's all centered around meals and wine, and a lifestyle that, I don't want to say is hedonistic and an oriented towards pleasure, but perhaps less competitive, that we commonly feel in America. Yeah. Those two ideas that, you know, that's that's a sort of where something is just a little bit off but in doing so. It's it's perfect. And, you know, and and for people that come to, you know, that that are newer, you know, to come to Italian wines, you know, there's always a little bit of that, that different flavor, different aroma that maybe they're not used to if they just drink California or or or to lesser extent maybe, you know, French wines. You know, it's a it's an unusual term, but we talk about, you know, having a little bit funky in, in a lot of Italian, wines, especially the reds, but that make them more compelling to keep going back to and, and trying And it's, you know, and those are those are flavors and aromas that we don't even often discuss, you know, you know, on the American side of of learning about food or wine. Okay. Let's bring this to a close. This week, we've had as guest, Aaron Demara. Who is What was your title? I'm a Florida district manager for zone eighteen twenty one. I'm a, Via Italian Ambassador and Educator. I wanna thank you for sharing your time, and insights with us this week. And we look forward to welcoming everyone listening back next week for another interesting interview at, the Italian wine podcast, yet US market ready with Italian wine people. This is Steve Ray signing off for the week. Thank you very much, Aaron. Thank you again. Thank you, Steve. Hey, my pleasure. This is Steve Ray. Thanks again for listening. On behalf of the Italian wine podcast.