Ep. 684 Liza Zimmerman | Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Thanks for tuning into my new show. Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. I'm Steve Ray, author of the book how to get US Market Ready. And in my previous podcast, I shared some of the lessons I've learned from thirty years in the wine and spirits business helping brands enter and grow in the US market. This series will be dedicated to the personalities who have been working in the Italian wine sector in the US, their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. I'll uncover the roads that they walked shedding light on current trends, business strategies, and their unique brands. This episode is proudly sponsored by Vivino, the world's largest online wine marketplace. The Vivino app makes it easy to choose wine. Enjoy expert team support door to door delivery and honest wine reviews to help you choose the perfect wine for every occasion. Vivino, download the app on Apple or Android and discover an easier way to choose wine. Hi. This is Steve Ray, and welcome to this week's show. Today, I'm very pleased to have as a guest, Liza Zimmerman, aka Liza the wine check, who I've known, in a number of positions in the industry, but Liza. Welcome to the show. And why don't you give us a little background on, how you got here? Thank you for inviting me, Steve. It's it's fun to be here. So my passion and interest in wine really started in Italy. I had, spent a year studying in Florence and was lucky enough to get a work permit. And when I graduated from northwestern, I moved back to Rome and basically taught English's second language for a couple of years, but I was very, invested in eating and drinking all the wonderful food there. And it was what I kind of dedicated most of my time and energy to, and I ended up teaching English to the editor of the gambarosa, which is the main wine magazine there. And alarm bells went off in my head, and I said ding ding ding ding. My god, people write about wine and food for a living. We don't have to just eat and drink recreationally. So I decided to move back to New York where I'm from to write about wine and food. I am bilingual, but English is my first language. And I was lucky enough to work for two different Italian magazines, Cucchini, which was part of the group boat, and the magazine La Cucchini Taviana. And I loved writing about wine and food, but as I did so for many years, I realized that I thought the wine people were more invested in both wine and food and how they work together than the food writers, and you'd find food publication discussing the depth at which a tomato was grown and at what angle with what type of soil. And then they'd serve it with red wine. So I decided I really wanted to make a move towards the wine side of the business and ended up working at wine enthusiasts running their tastings briefly and ended up working for Marvin Shankken for a decade as the editor of MarketWatch, which is trade arm of wine spectator, then, left there to work the business side of the business was an importer and distributor in Seattle for a year, didn't love sales, headed down to San Francisco and started freelancing consulting and writing again, which I've been doing since then. Long answer to a short question. Well, yeah, and it's one that it's one that really intrigues me for how you like the idea of a freelance journalist as opposed to an on a staff editorial position. You've had the experience of working as a staff editor and or writer for a couple of publications. And now you're doing a whole lot of things from the, journalism point of view. You're writing for a number of different publications. What is that experience like as opposed to having a day job doing it where you get a salary? I really love the diversity of freelancing, and it's really kind of led me into. I'm I'm really a legal reporter and a business reporter. I really love doing trade writing. And supplying all our great restaurateurs and retailers and Psalms with the info, you know, legal info and news and trend info they need. I did the consumer magazine thing for so many years and I I hit a point. I said if another housewife, asked me what's so special about Aceto Bosamiko. I'm gonna kill her. So I I love working with professionals. It's been very gratifying, and I do write, primarily for Forbes and wine searcher. Not afraid to make to, take take a position. Why searcher in particular, your partner in crime is Blake Gray. And he's he's known to have an opinion or two. You wanna comment on that? Yes. Oh, I completely respect Blake. And and while I was in San Francisco. And so we we cover a lot of similar things, and Blake actually was a legal reporter. And Blake is who the editor of wine searcher chose to be the American contributor. So we do kind of compete for some stories, but I think we, you know, we're friends and that we respect each other. Cool. In addition to writing, a big part of what you do is consulting. We're gonna get into some of that in terms of the, wineries that you work for, but but talk us what are some of the consulting things that you do. I do a wide range of consulting from consumer wine education events for team building. I had a whole series of, like, legally themed events called raising the bar that was a lot of fun pre pandemic in San Francisco with a lot of law firms. But I also consult with regions, wineries, publicists here on content how to engage different writers and editors because I feel oftentimes they're just pitching a small group of wine writers in New York and San Cisco who are inundated. So I've done a lot of projects about reaching out to, say, Atlanta Life Magazine, you know, the Houston City magazine and how to position the content. I also do a lot of educational projects. I've worked for Panagnana, rias Biaschess, surprising a lot of Spanish entities and regions, you know, that I also love. I also speak a lot about the three tier system and try to help producers here and abroad understand how to get wines into this very complicated markets of spoken both in English and Italian. I spoke in Palermo a couple of years ago in Italian trying desperately to help a lot of producers navigate the system and there there was quite a lot of commotion about how crazy and difficult our our wine cell system is. I brokered a number of brands And I also work with, different Italian publicists that have different regions and brands to put on educational events that generate both coverage from the media that attend and also get brands picked up and sold here because due to twenty five years in the magazine business, I have a wonderful personal database of, ten thousand tea contacts. All the wholesalers, the room, the importers, the psalms, and, you know, people like Mel Dick at Southern actually pick up their cell phone for me. So that's great. And I've really been able to leverage those contacts to make a lot of things happen for brands I believe in. Okay. So making this specifically relevant for what's happening this week, wine to wine is taking place in verona. Many of the wineries that attend wine to wine and Van Italy itself are looking for US representation. One of the reasons I wrote the book how to get US market ready is because I got tired of telling the same story over again about how they need to understand the US market. So you can be an an advocate for them and helping them make those connections. How willing are you to take those things on? And what are the requirements that you look for from a winery? You're not gonna take every winery that calls. We'll get into Sicily in a moment. I think, yeah, brokering and wines, it it's tough. I mean, people see this as a big market, you know, and and ease, you know, an easy target. Oh, because there are millions of Americans, and they drink a lot of wine. I don't think they understand how inundated this market is. And the the myriad of choices that we have. And nor do they understand really how the three tier system, I mean, makes this we're not one market, but we're fifty markets. And it's very hard because the buying habits and standards in Europe are so different. For them to get their their brains wrapped around this. So if I were to take on a brand, I'm looking for an exceptional, you know, wine quality, and I'm looking for somebody smart who's ready to kind of have the patience and know how to enter the market. That's something else I see a lot with foreign producers. They say, oh, it seems huge market. Let's just jump on it. And it really, really takes time, time and effort and and a market presence, and I would wanna work with a brand that's also willing to have somebody here in the states. To monitor sales. It's not, you know, a magic trick getting the brand in here, and then it's gonna sit on the shelf because, distributors are gonna focus on selling other brands. So most of the brands I brought in are Italian. It's just sort of a natural synergy for me being bilingual, and I worked a lot with Southern Italian brands because I absolutely love the grapes. I helped Peter Vintock Deers, who's a Danish count who worked in, Takide, founded Royal Tukai, brilliant guy. I helped broker in, his Montecarubo brands to Texas and some of the states around there. And the they're just exceptional wines. He's making Sarah and Noto, which is Serali is kind of on the rise in Sicily, but it's not the first grape that you think of. So that was very gratifying. And then I've also worked with the Luigi Rubino and Pulia and helping him bring in the brands to a number of states. I think the producers need to understand, like, also you you can't just be on a sales percentage for this. You need some kind of retainer because it is so much work reaching out, you know, and making sure that the wines get to the right people trying to get these appointments. It's challenging and Well, now everything's different now in the pandemic. All of this was proven in the mix. So yeah. Right. The world is different. Okay. Let's let's head down south to, Sicily. You've mentioned it a number of times. You told me earlier in a conversation that you're passionate about volcanic wines and Cicillium wines in particular. Tell me more about where is this interest come from and, what kind of receptivity are you finding in the United States for those wines? Well, I'm I'm a huge a tower file. I've never lived in Sicily. I've spent. Several months doing marketing projects down there, but I've never officially lived there. But I've always been ever since Leonardo Lucasso in the mid nineties, which is when I came back from Italy, started putting Southern Italian grapes. He is cillian, and he is from Palamo on the map. I've been passionate about them. And I I liked Nerd Avila initially, which was the red that kind of more commercial that people pushed. But as I spent more time, you know, in Sicily, I started discovering grapes and crazy about, like, Bernardo Mescalese and Frapato. And those are great They're indigenous graves that you mostly find, Western Sicily, around Marcella, around trappany. Absolutely fabulous. A lot of producers are doing single varietal estate wines with these. And they love them. And then when you kinda hop into the whites indigenous ones like and Solium Caturato, they're doing these fabulous blends with chardonnay. I'm not a huge chardonnay fan, you know, in PUTessa at, like, a hundred percent chardonnay, but I love it when they mix it up with some of these indigenous rivals. They're fresh, they're fruity, they're citric, Cisle is also really affordable. The food is dynamite. People are welcoming. Lots of North African influence. I mean, both on the dialect and the food, because when you think about it, North Africa is actually closer to Sicily than than Mainland Italy. I just feel like it's a place that is really discovering and rediscovering itself, and it's a very dynamic time. And I I can't wait. I'm going, in two weeks to spend a week in that Katanya. And for me, it's not solely about Aetna. I mean, I have been, you know, to Aetna myriad times. I enjoy the volcanic wines, but I'm much more a a Western Sicily person, honestly. And I feel like too much of the attention has been focused on that. Now they're wonderful wines, but I would like to see the rest of the island, you know, get get some attention and some love. Okay. What kind of receptivity has there been for sicilian wines in general? And Western ones as you're talking about. I mean, I I don't see a lot there. That doesn't mean they're, you know, they're not in the US, but, you know, beyond Neuroadavala and the whole volcanic wine thing. And I think people like Aldiara getting behind that movement helps it immensely as well. Do you see much presence in the US? And if there's no presence, how can people find these wines? I really don't sadly. I see a lot of narrative, which I think we're all excited about when it first came in the market. Again, going back to Land Art a little cash unwind on twenty five years ago, but as these wines have evolved, I just I don't think they're the finest example for the most part of of what can be done there. I mean, I think they're easy drinking wines and they're affordable wines, but again, You don't see the indigenous varietals very often. You know, and and then you have some brands like Cose. I mean, there are brands that have been kind of fetishized, you know, volcanic wines and, wines that use pomenty, the the old system of gravity flow wineries, I mean, there's a whole book that was written about that. I don't quite know a lot of these producers are little. A lot of them are cooperatives, and they don't know how to navigate the market. It's it's hard. I scour the shelves, when they go in stores or restaurants, and I really jump on anything, unusual sicilian that that's out there. I guess I'm hoping existing importers will dig deeper. And I'm hoping some of the brands will reach out to folks like us that perhaps we can guide them into the hands of the right importers. So let's talk a little bit about COVID and how that's impacting the whole import business. I had a conversation with, one of the logistics companies we work with and They were citing three to five x increases over what just the shipping costs alone were prior to COVID. Doesn't look like that's gonna get solved anytime soon. They're talking about end of twenty twenty two before things kind of reach some level of you know, balance. That's the problem right now. It's out of balance. But so what other things has COVID wrought in the world of wine and how are you dealing with it? I think it's I mean, the pandemic destroyed our restaurants around the country. I mean, there are statistics saying something like sixty percent of them may not survive this, and they led to huge amounts of off premise sales. I mean, the retailers have definitely benefited from people staying home, cooking at home. And I think that is beginning to rebalance. But I think, yeah, we won't see a lot of restaurants, and I think we're gonna see notable changes in wine programs. I recently left San Francisco, but some of the fancier restaurants like Harris's, which is a well known steak house that they lived a couple blocks from. They they started during the pandemic. Selling off their library wines. You could just stop on the street and get a get a screaming deal. So I think when some of the fine dining establishments go back into service, the the the depth and breadth of wine list is just not gonna be there. They're not gonna be there. Library wines as their ones were. I think so by the glass programs are gonna be more limited and simple. It's, you know, it's it's shame, really. So it's gonna change the dynamics of what's available for consumers and also how it's presented. You know, there's been a lot of conversation about the organization of wine lists and the words that are used to describe them. And I've I've heard many sides of many different coins. I wanted to add also with the retail sector, I mean, we're seeing the growth of huge chains like total wines and more. Opening stores all over the country, you know, even in markets like New York where they're only allowed to have one, but they're doing all kinds of winery direct brands. And they're developing, for instance, I spent some time in Bulgaria, and I like Bulgaria wines. You go in there and they've got ten different gonzes, which is an indigenous grape. And they're really taking over huge market share. And it it's exciting because you're seeing all these wonderful esoteric wines, but there is concern. Obviously, in the industry that they're gonna become the Walgreens or, you know, Rite Aid, of the the wine world, and that we're no longer going to be able to find the wines that are not exciting the execs at total. And that's that's a concern. So that opens the door to, talking about e commerce. And one of the the benefits that e commerce brings is a is a virtual inventory as a concept and the long tail of types of wines that they can carry. So while a retail store may only have two to ten thousand skews depending on where you are and how big it is, people wanna shop in a much larger range of wines, they can do that. The internet is set up to do that, but we're just not familiar with shopping that way. Although we're seeing, I've been talking to a number of retailers lately, that the way people shop is completely different. They may still buy from a brick and mortar retailer, but they may never go into physically the brick and mortar. Store. This is true. It certainly started with younger demographics because they want to, you know, be on their iPhone, you know, in the subway in New York and buy the wine and have it there when they get home. But, I mean, it has slipped over obviously into other demographics, and everybody just wants to buy from the the comfort of their home. Which is not always an ideal thing because there's something special about going into a shop and, you know, developing a relationship with Clark and and talking a little bit about I like wines like this that or the other thing. And, you know, I have relationships mean, I have a, you know, a guy in New York when I go back. I think it's it's Columbus wine and spirits named Neil Weinstein, and he's great. He worked at Beacon in New York too. And, I mean, he knows my pal and I just say Neil, I'm rolling into New York. Can put a case together for me and my mother, which is very interesting because she hates Chardonnay, hates acidic wines. So it's very difficult to put something together for two people with such different palettes, but he manages. But I think with e commerce, people are finding rating systems, you know, sharing, you know, what their peers liked. Mine dot com just came out with this new service called picked that they it's actually smack on. They ask you, four or five questions, maybe more about your palate. They sent me Bruner belt liner and all these beautiful wines that that I love. So I think people are probably availing themselves of programs like that. More frequently. Mhmm. What I see is that when you're engaging somebody in a conversation in a store, they can be walking you over here talking about this. You could hold the wine in your hand and so forth. When they're doing it online, I think this, a younger generation is more comfortable doing that type of conversation online, which may not be, you know, all at the same time. It may be asynchronous that they may be looking at something and asking questions and getting texts back and so forth. But that is the preferred way that they they like to do things. So if if that's not going to be there for them, and we've seen a whole lot of new apps come out that try and help people figure out what their tastes are. One of the fundamental problems is the language we use which is, like, really bad, meaning simplistic and not very descriptive or overly subtle, descriptive, and not very useful like fried gooseberries. Or just some of the questions that some of these apps like, do you like chocolate or not? And And honestly, my grandfather had a chocolate factory in Brooklyn. I ate so much chocolate as good that I I'm a chocolate phobe at this point. So but I bottom line is I don't really understand what liking or not liking chocolate, you know, dark chocolate or milk chocolate has to do with your tasting wines, how that translates. That that's exactly my point that they may be asking indicative questions about something. But when I when I think about a wine, okay. Yeah. I like cabernet sauvignon, but I may like, like, I don't like a lot of the, mid to lower price ones from America. They're too sweet. They're making them because the American ballot is sweet. Higher price wines are drier, but I've kinda shied away from American wines simply because of that. Is that a trend that's real, or is that just me interpreting what I'm tasting. I think that's an industry trend. I mean, I I've been living on the West Coast now for almost twenty years in all three, of the states, and, and I my my palate was largely developed in Italy. So I skew, you know, towards drinking a lot of European wines. But I I do think that's something, you know, we do in the industry. There's a bit of Snomism that, you know, is maybe merited because a lot, a lot of American wines are created, you know, with the sweeter taste profile. For people, but I do think there are absolute gems, obviously, in all the three, you know, western states. And even, I went to snake river in Idaho, they're making some great wines, some of the rieslings from the finger lakes. So Well, yeah. I guess every each of the fifty states in, including Kansas and New Mexico, New Mexico has grew it, that sparkling wine that's blown the doors off of everybody for, like, sixteen ninety nine, and it's got a a a great reputation. So And they're a Champpinoise family. You probably know that. I mean, that that is the reason why they're able to produce that. I don't know why they chose Albuquerque. Yeah. Of all places, but, yeah, I love it. I drink a ton of it. But that's an industry secret. You know what I mean? It's not I think it's us basically buying all the Grouet. I don't know that it's Well, that's another big question. There's us and there's them. And I think, you know, one of the things that happen is, wine criticism and the, hundred point scoring system that Parker had had started. Almost distances everybody else who's not clued into that as to thinking they're dumb or they don't know enough or a lot about wines and add in the jargon of weird words, you know, like, a leather strap on a you know, a horse saddle or something like that. I I finished, the Wine Spirit Education Trust diploma in two thousand when the World Hawaiian was much smaller, but it just was so challenging. We would, you know, do tasting notes in, in New York, And I remember Brian Robinson, who was one of the, wine directors at Sotheby's or Christie's or both of them at some point, is is tasting his wine. And he's like, I'm getting cookie dough, which I thought was outrageously funny, but just our descriptors We don't make it easy. I mean, we're kind of acting like the medical and the legal establishment in kind of creating our own language to keep people out and to keep them confused and to keep them paying us the big bucks to help them out in some ways. Sort of turn that back into your life as a journalist in the words that you use. You're not doing wine criticism anymore. You're talking about the wine industry. I recognize that, but still in all, you know, with all the the w set stuff and anything else that you're involved where you're doing lectures, that comes into play. People are expecting to hear, well, what should I taste in this wine? How do you when you're talking to people who are not necessarily new to the industry, but aren't overwhelmed by the industry what they should look for, how they should taste critically. I believe wine is so subjective. That's why I really hate telling somebody, you know, you're gonna get, like, road tar and, you know, and rat poop and and gooseberries and things like that. I really encourage people to use their palate and and and try to see what they're tasting. You know? And when I do corporate events, because I've worked, you know, all over some of the big tech corps in Silicon Valley. You always get somebody who kinda hassles you and they're like, No. This is not, rat poop. It's goose poop in in this wine. Or cats pee or right. Yeah. But, but there's there's always somebody who heckles you in the crowd, but I just encourage people to, you know, get comfortable and describe things. And I do a lot of interactive activities too, which I think is fun seeing how sugar to salt and citrus, interface with wine. And I think it helps get a discussion going. Or those gummies, you know, little gummy bears, like, if you to one with your nose closed. You don't really taste anything, and it kind of shows that seventy percent of of what you get off of wine is through your nose. So I try to, would novices kind of get them comfortable through techniques like that. I guess that's the whole thing is to to be comfortable with and give them permission to use their own words and and your own likes and dislikes. Coming back to, the the wine industry. So we're in COVID. We're not out of it yet, but a lot of the travel that I've done recently. I see a whole lot of people are not wearing masks. Get past that whole anti vax question and issue. There's gonna be a new normal coming. The e commerce is one piece of it. Are there other pieces that you see emerging? That represent opportunities for players in the wine industry at varying levels. I think a bottle of wine can be, you know, a vacation in a bottle in some ways. I mean, it can help you revisit somewhere wonderful. You've been or give you a taste experience of somewhere you'd like to go. I mean, as we may be traveling less, there is that opportunity, I think, for brands to bring us these these lifestyle experiences. I think we've all almost become more embedded cooks during this period. I mean, I know I was pretty up on my game, but I'm not super up on my game, roasting chickens, and sousviding pork loins, and things like that. I think I think it's gonna change dining patterns a lot that people will really want to eat out for something exceptional. I I don't wanna pay a restaurant. Thirty two dollars for roast chicken when I can kill it at home, and I can get, you know, not not the chicken when I can, you know, You had me there for a moment. No. But as I was saying, when I can roast it, I can get a beautiful organic chicken, and I can roast it slightly at home. I don't desire to do that. So I think dining is gonna really shift to either, like, ethnic food, and I don't say that pejoratively, but burmese food, Thai food, things that we we're not equipped to cook that have a lot of complicated ingredients, a really exceptional multi course molecular dining experiences. Like, I just moved to Ashland, Oregon, which is a very small dynamic town in in Southern Oregon, and we have a restaurant here called Moss, and he's doing kind of the police style gastronomic molecular, very Japanese influence things with with a crazy intricate wine list. He just actually opened a a raw bar about a week ago. I went last night. I'm gonna do a story on it, and, oysters from all over the west coast, crab preparations, an ooey toast, And his wine list is it's half wine, half sake, but he's got orange wines. He's got pet nuts. He's got all kinds of. He has a yuzu sake on there that's coming in at about seven percent, which is great if you have to drive. But I think that that type of cuisine leaves a lot of room for really esoteric wines to come into this market. And do you see, an expansion or contraction in the number and scope of importers that are out there that you're working with? Oh, definitely. I mean, well, starting with the wholesale tier. I mean, it's been swiftly consolidating, over the years. And we have, you know, really two, three, really big players, you know, and when I do, you know, wine events for different publicists or regions, you know, I have to really warn them, you know, you'll be lucky to get one guy from Southern and one guy, you know, from Republic, you know, and there there are so few of them. And the same thing importers have been growing. I mean, Leonardo Lacasha going back to him because he was very seminal in my wine education when I return to the States. I mean, he was once doing boutique Italian wines. He's got a Spanish wine division, he does German wines. I mean, he's pretty much retired, but some of these guys have just gotten so enormous. It's a shame. And there are small guys out there, but it's It's hard for brands to get traction with them because simply because the big distributors represent so many brands that people really, when you say this delicately need to stock a lot of them and they're, you know, may not be room. For the smaller brands. That and I think that's the issue. Everybody looks as I said, you're the biggest market in the world, but we still have since because of the three tier system traditional brick and mortar restrictions on on stocking and getting a product in. Frankly, is really difficult. But it's also the easy part getting it out, getting the consumer to buy it, getting the consumer to reach for it, and recognize or or recognize that it's something they might be interested in. We used to have a way I was taught was if it's not on the if it's not on the floor, it's not in the store. You may be able to get a one facing if you're coming in with a limited number of skews that they give you one facing. Well, that's not gonna go anywhere. You know, somebody brings in a broken case of three bottles or something. Once it's gone, it's forgotten. It's not gonna get that kind of traction. So the challenge I see is how do we generate some reaction or acknowledgement or, awareness for a lot of these wines when when we that we're all just inundated with all these screaming messages It's it's a challenge. What do you what do you say to people like that? I think a lot of the consumer wine writing that's going on is is not helping. I mean, every time Erica isimov from New York Times writes about one specific wine at everybody who carries it in New York sells out of it. Honestly. And I actually, pitched him about a couple of really relevant legal stories. You know, we recently had a a case go to the Supreme Court. Yeah. And he literally said to me, he's like, why would you pitch, a newspaper like a wine writer? I mean, my response would would be you're not covering these kinds of issues. You're harping on specific wines in specific regions. And I remember, was it bon appetit or one of the magazines listed all the specific wines All the wines mentioned in this issue. And again, it's really hard those specific wines sell out. And I think in the consumer publications, we need more writing about general, like, regions, grapes, things like that that encourage people to explore and not just focus on on one wine. And and that's something we do have in the trade that, I mean, wine business monthly, you name it all these great publications. They take a look at, you know, trends in Texas, trends in Charton May, what's, you know, coming out of Rioja, how are the regions evolving. But I I really feel like the consumer wine writers would be doing us a a big favor to to broaden the range of what they're writing about and not drill down on specifics. Okay. Okay. We're kinda coming to the end, but, one of the things I do would like to end each interview with. What's the big takeaway of the things that we talked about here? Is there something that listeners and they can vary, you know, from people in the industry outside the industry domestic foreign or the other way around of what we talked about? What do you think is something someone can take away from this conversation? Well, I think for brands that wanna be present in this country, whether they're, you know, imports or domestic, you have to have patience. This is not an easy, nut to crack. I think you need to reach out to and work with people in the know, like us, like importers. I think for consumers, I would say, explore, have fun, you know, mix it up, create a relationship with a clerk in a store, even if you don't wanna go in, you know, I haven't seen my friend Neil in New York in in in ages, but I talk to him and he supplies me with what I want. And I always recommend when I do wine education, you know, get a mixed case. Say, you know, I like this kind of Dundee Hills Pino out of Oregon, and I'm interested in spending fifteen to seventeen ninety nine. Let them, you know, mix up a a case for you. And they know their inventory. I'm they're they're better suited than We are who are not familiar with each individual SKU. You're limited to only the information that's available on the label, which is pretty skimpy at best. And I would say, you know, I'm not a fan of ratings. I always say find a wine writer whose palette you like, who's similar to yours. And read him or her and and, and buy those wines as opposed to buying specific wines that are, with ratings that are obviously vintage specific or a state vineyard specific, and they're obviously gonna sell out or cost ten times more perhaps than they should. Question, Mark. Yeah. That's one of the questions I get a lot. Are are expensive wines better? Well, you know, define better. You know, if you can't taste the difference, I'd say no. Though they may be, if you can't perceive it or you don't appreciate the difference, maybe not. But, you know, there's a lot going on between the brand value of the wine, the score, the familiarity of it, and and we see that in social media and a whole lot of things. Also, in terms of, you know, branding, I say a lot of times don't don't buy the big brands. You're you're helping pay for their advertising campaigns. I'm not gonna name names, you know, and and don't buy the colt grapes. I mean, we all know Pina noir, which we love is a difficult grape to grow. It's expensive. So if you're looking at almost any region, and Merlo has been so maligned, and it's a great grape. I I say to people, but if you have all the SKUs in front of you for any reason, by the Merlo, it's going to be a a couple bucks cheaper, and it's gonna be ten times better in quality than the Peno. Or or the cab. Yeah. Well, it's a blending grape for Bordeaux varietals, and all the wines of mammarole are are saying a stepfather, a merlot based. So anyway, okay, Liza. Liza Zimmerman, would you like to share your social media handles if somebody wanted to, reach out to you, what would be the best way for them to do that? So I'm I'm lies of the wine check. I'm on Instagram. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Facebook. I have my own site. Lies at Wise of the wine check. Invite anybody who would like to put together, an event that needs help with, content, pitching strategy, education, gaining new brands in the market to reach out to me and be thrilled to put together a free proposal for you, and see if we can work together to navigate this amazing, but, tough market. K. That was Liza Zimmerman, Liza, the wine check. Liza, thank you very much for taking the time to, talk with us today. Thank you so much, Steve. And I look forward to seeing you somewhere around the world. But not over zoom soon. Hopefully, with a good bottle of Italian wine in in a hand. This is Steve Ray. Thanks again for listening on behalf of the Italian wine podcast. Hi everybody. Italian wine podcast celebrates its fourth anniversary this year, and we all love the great content they put out every day. Chinching with Italian wine people has become a big part of our day, and the team in verona needs to feel our love. 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