Ep. 961 Riccardo Ricci Curbastro | Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode is brought to you by Vinitally International Academy, announcing the twenty fourth of our Italian wine Ambassador courses to be held in London, Austria, and Hong Kong. From the twenty seventh to the twenty ninth of July. Are you up for the challenge of this demanding course? Do you want to be the next Italian wine Ambassador? Learn more and apply now at viniti international dot com. Thanks for tuning in to Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people on the Italian wine podcast. I'm Steve Ray, your host, and this podcast features interviews with the people actually making a difference in the Italian wine market in America. Their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. And I'll be adding a practical focus to the conversation based on my thirty years in the business. So if you're interested in not just learning how, but also how else, then this pod is for you. Hello, and welcome to this week's edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian Wine People. I'm your host Steve Ray. And this week, I'm pleased to have as a guest Ricardo Ritchie Karbastro. I didn't know him when I was first introduced to him by Stevie Kim, but it turns out he has this stellar career working in about nine or ten different organizations as well as running French Quarter winery. So could you give us a little bit of, a background on who you are, how you got here, and what your role is for some of these, advisory or NGO type organizations? Thank you, Steve, for your introduction. I am an technologist and then an agronomist, I'm the owner and they run along with my two sons, two estates. So one, it's in French Acorta that you already mentioned. So in Lombardy, and the second one, it's in Amelia, the two companies have been in the family, in our family, since eighteen generations now. In the last forty years, I've been among other things involved in many different. Let's say public affairs or public duties. I was the president of the young Italian farmers I was the president of, Agreedurus, the association that develops the rural tourism, president of the French Acura consortium, and that was in the night is when the French Corta achieved the DOCG status, and then of featherdock and the EFO. EFO is the European Federation of Origin wines. So, for some time, my office was also in Brookdale, not only in Rome. Since I was a child, I've been a great lover of all what is concerning environment and ornithology. I'm a discrete photographer of natural and animals, and, this has been developing in me, great attention to all what it's concerning the environment. So as a farmer in my work, I always did eat, of course, with passion, but at the same time with, always, an eye on the environmental questions. By the way, the silent spring, the record person was one of my, readings when I was fifteen, so long time ago. But I remember reading it about that time too. That was a big, in, in fact, I met my wife at, conservation one ten, freshman year in school. So that's always been a part of our life as well. So you can understand me. Yes. I can. Okay. So let's jump right to Federdoc. What is it? What are its roles? What are its initiatives? And, what's happened recently? For their doc, it's the national confederation of voluntary consortia, or for the protection of the denomination of origin. The denomination of origin in Italy are protected by a consortium that it's voluntary. It's not compulsory. And the federation, it's, working for all these, different concerns. It was established in nineteen seventy nine, and, practically, actually, it's a body that, brings together almost the entire universe of the Italian designation of origin wines. And Federal Doc represents, the consortium every day and support them on, in institutional, legal, and legislative levels for their doc and the consortium were twenty years ago. The creators, for example, of the current control system of the Italian wines with the appalachian, is a control that is held in, in the vineyard, in the cellar, and on the bottle. And, it allows, at the end of all the process, completed flexibility from the single bottle back to the seller and vineyard. This is a system that is really unique worldwide and was, as I said, created by Federado and, consultancy. Through the years, further doc is always also promoting the designation of origin with information, promotional campaigns in Europe and around the world. So we have also an international activity that is related with the image and the knowledge of the Italian wines with an ablation. So this is voluntary, participation by the growers or producers. What authority does the entity have? Is it a formal regulatory thing? Is this just, how's the structure? Well, an Appalachian, it's, something that it's, very democratic on one side, but all the, represent station of the interest of the vineyards of the wine producers and the grape and the wine producers is done with no delegation. So, when I try to explain how an appletian work, I always say that we have the opportunity of writing our own rules, but we do that directly. We don't have to elect a parliament that is then making the law. We write our own law. Then, of course, the national and the European authorities are recognizing our work. So there is an official recognition on the on the on the frame that we write about each But this is interesting because we have to do that. It's our duty. And we have, we are in charge of protecting something that is a public ceremony. An appalachian is not just belonging to me as a producer and to my colleagues as producers, but it belongs also to the community. So it's a part of the public patrimony as well as, for example, Ecolosseo or Yufizi Museum in in Florence are our public patrimony. Those, the colosseo or the, who fits here, are protected by the state. The appalachians are first pro protected by the producers through their consorts and then, of course, the state. Okay. So there's also, a parallel thing going on here. Origin wines. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yes. The concept of, origin is, very, very old. We have to go back to the, Roman Empire. The designation of origin is meant to be the name of a region of a certain place that can be a huge region or a small one. French Agorta, for example, where I produce is a small area just eighteen villages. Brunoo de Montalcino is Montalcino. It's just one village. And then you might have Canti or Canti Glasgow that are much more bigger areas. And this specific place, it's indicating a specific product with some characters that are unique for the region due to the region. So these characters are given essentially by the local geographical environment, but also by the human factors So the human activity. That's very clear when we talk about wine, there is a transformation of the grapes that is made in a cellar with some human factors that are affecting the final taste. The interesting thing about the geographical indications of designation of origin is that the Romans discovered that the market. So the people, the consumers we say today, were ready to pay higher price for products coming from a certain designated place, the designation of origin, instead of a generic wine. Like Polernean wine was written about by plenty and people like that. Is being better off. Of course. And they were paying more. So at that moment, the Roman Empire had also an a new problem. How can I protect the consumers, the people buying from those that are frauding and that are counter fighting the origin From that moment on, we created a legislation of, of the appalachian of origin that is really typical of the Mediterranean area? So you will find the concept of the origin and the appalachian or the destination of origin. In all the Latin legislation, so France, Spain, and so on. You won't find it, for example, in the Anglo Saxon, tradition, where, the concept of, Appalachian was introduced much more later when, Great Britain started entering in the, European market. And, unfortunately, now with Brexit, we lost them. But, yeah, that was the the beginning. For example, just to let you understand what I'm saying. New Zealand was selling, Sabignon, blank, coming from Malbora, or USA was were selling cabernet sauvignon coming from Napa. Actually, you see that Napa Valley is in my AVA. So an American Viticulture area. And if you wanna write Napa on your label, that is generally speaking, written bigger than, as well as Malvern. Now it's written bigger than than uh-uh, sovignon Black. You have to, follow some rules, for example, and the percent of the grapes should came from Napa. So again, this is the starting off an appalachian and the concept of appalachian. The grape is less important. It's more important where it's coming from. What are the attitude that the human factors that are changing the characters of the wine I have in the glass? I visited Pompee a few years ago, and I was pleased and surprised to see that, Master Veradino has a vineyard in Pompee and are, I guess, making wines like they made during Roman times back two thousand years ago. And I thought that was just really a cool manifestation of, kinda going back to where we all started. But now there's some complications. And the complications, are all about the terms that we use and maybe different definitions in different languages and in different countries. I just use one sentence here from a a report I I got from wine intelligence. They have a thing called the alternative wine opportunity index which is, as they stated, a compound measure of consumer engagement in wine. So it's data that you can track about consumer behavior. Yeah. I get that. Okay. In wine categories including sustainable, organic, natural, biodynamic, and fair trade. Now we're not gonna go into the definitions of each of those here. We don't have enough time, but I think it's interesting because they are used almost interchangeably by consumers in the United States but are perceived differently. Can you comment on that? Definitely. I can because, FedEx Doc, and now also, e for the European Federation of Origin wines have been working a lot on, on this matter. First of all, any name has a meaning for us. Any word in our vocabulary has a meaning. And the meaning, it's, the culture that is behind that has been creating that, that word So each term might might have different, lectures for us. But I believe that among all the names you have been reading right now, sustainability is the only one that is in some way including all the other ones. So where is sustainability coming from? The first time, we had the definition of sustainability. It was in nineteen eighty seven when the World Commission on Environment and Development started a study on a sustainable, development, economical development, and the final report named on the president of the WOC eyes, the ID of the time that was Arland Bruntland. So the Bruntland report was saying sustainable development is development that satisfied the needs of the present without compromising the liability of future generations to meet their own. It looks like something written by Greta, if we wanna joke on this. But, I mean, it's definitely correct. The our sons have the same rights we have. And they should have a life good as ours or even better than than ours. So we cannot destroy all their opportunities just because we want to live without thinking about tomorrow. And so all what it's, inside this, short sentence, it's, what we can talk we can discuss about sustainability. So it's not just the carbonization. Is not just, climate changes. It's not just organic. It's not just biodynamic. It's it's many other things that are connected with what today we call the three pillars of sustainability. So the environmental pillar, the social, and the economical one. Today, we see that a lot of countries are working on this direction of the sustainability. We can see that also the great, international investors are putting their money only in, their capitals are getting into activities that might not compromise the future of the generations that are coming after us. This is very important because means that we are trying to save our world, our earth, and not just to live on it, and without taking care of. So in two thousand fifteen, Federal Doc and the consultant started working on this matter along with other subjects. And, in, in a few years, we have been creating an, a standard that is called equalities that it's trying to give a response, to all these matters starting from the Viticulture and wine production point of view. So it's an approach that is, given to the single company, to the wine. The wine can be sustainable. The single seller can be sustainable. But, of course, due to the fact that it was born in our tolls on approach that it's a related single territories, the single, wine appelations. It's an approach that it's, giving some indicators that can be measured. It's not just a matter to say I'm doing something, but it's also a matter of measuring my activities and try to improve them year by year. And it's an approach that it's, with, an gradual access. We cannot do everything in just one moment. We have to create a plan and work on it. So, on this, graduate ability, we've been creating many different things that you can discuss. The interesting thing about, sustainability is that you can find a lot of different arguments that can be of, interest of the single consumer. I'm more concerned about, soil or I'm more concerned about the biodiversity handling or I'm more concerned about different matters. So, for example, in in agriculture practices, the standard is talking about soil handling, fertility handling, irrigation, plant handling, defense, harvest, biodiversity, dangerous agrochemicals, gathering VINification, and, detergent and sanitation of, in the seller, again, on the economic practices, or better. Let's talk about the social This is because this is very important, especially in North Europe, actually, and even in Canada, we notice a lot of interest on this point. The workers' rights, qualification current with the the work that people is doing, promotion of equal opportunities and youth work. No discrimination. Well, for monitoring the satisfaction of the employers with, questioners, plans for personal training, sharing information inside the company and, recording them. Training the contractors in many works in the in the vineyards and in the seller, we may have contractors. To them, we might apply the same rules that we have for our employers. There is also a questionary that is compulsory for the neighbors in order to plane to the neighbors, to those that deliver on the vineyards, what you are doing, and at the same time, what they expect from you in order to have, an exchange of information, again, culture, of what is behind sustainability. Then, of course, on the economical practices, you have handling control of the economical investments, demonstration for the sustainability, growing plans for workers, turnover, economical incentives, for achieving objectives of, of goals for for the for the sustainability as well, meeting with the ownership. I did it, last week with all my employers because we just certified the year two thousand twenty first, and so we had to do the annual meeting for discussing all these matters. Again, it's a place where they know they can be part of the adventure, part of the of the story of the company that is not just working for the company. It's being part of it. Are you enjoying this podcast? There is so much more high quality wine content available from mama jumbo shrimp. Check out our new wine study maps. Our books on Italian wine, including Italian wine unplugged, the jumbo shrimp guide to Italian wine, Sanjay Lambrusco, and other stories, and much much more. On our website, mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Now back to the show. Okay. So let me I'm I'm gonna kinda make a statement here. A challenge, if you will. We've talked to a number of words there, sustainable organic, organic grapes, organically grown grapes, all that kind of stuff have different meanings and certainly, regulatory meetings in the United States for sure. But then there's this category of what do you wanna call it? Natural wine or low intervention or no intervention. And I was talking with, Madelina Pasquat Debithelia, who was a wine that I imported at one time. And she made the point that there really is no such thing as natural wine. If we grow vines in a vineyard, it's a monoculture. It's not a natural environment for the if you wanna boil it down to its very basic premises, and so low or no intervention wine, is kind of a point there. And it's a growing thing. People are very interested in in natural wine. One of the things that happened in the US just in the last couple of weeks is a challenge to the use of the word clean. It was a Hollywood celebrity Cameron Diaz who came out with a wine and she called it clean wine. And there was a a bit of a feedback, if you will, from the trade, saying that's, pushing back on the TTB, and the TTB issued a warning saying, basically, you can't use clean wine because it doesn't mean any thing. And it gives the by definition, if you say, I make clean wine, yours isn't. As well as natural, that doesn't really mean nothing. I mean, each wine, it naturally. It's a natural fermentation of, of grapes. So Unfortunately, in our in our society, in our in these times, we try to simplify a lot of things that are quite complex. What it means. We try to find a word or just some key words that should explain all what we wanna say is the Twitter system. But in life, it's a little bit more complex than just a tweet. And, of course, here, we are talking about science behind all this indicators, soil biodiversity that you have to certify carbon footprint that you have to calculate, water footprint that you have to calculate. These are all scientific matters. And need more than one word to be described. That's why I was saying probably sustainability once we will be ready to understand all the meanings of this word will be more interesting for the consumers than just natural that it's not an easy definition because no one can tell what is natural. I mean, there is not one definition. Well, ultimately, vinegars natural. I mean, that's what mine's gonna be. We're just kind of like in the middle here trying to extend the amount of time it's in this particular form. At when I was at university, studying, analogy, my, my teacher, was starting each lesson every morning saying, well, we are ready here to talk about winemaking. Remember that in nature with grapes you make vinegar, But now we will talk about wine that it's something that it's in the middle between grape and vinegar. So this was a great lesson, and I think it's exactly what we need to understand. I mean, if we wanna drink a wine that has certain character, we have to apply, in the transformation, some techniques that will keep the wine fruity and not having any notes of, of, vinegar or that the proper color and not just an orange color that is natural color of the oxidation. And so, definitely, we need to get a little bit more deeper into, the question. For example, a vineyard can be a place of biodiversity. That was a question that you were asking to, missus Pasco. I believe so. I'm actually measuring the biodiversity of my vineyards and what's around my vineyards interesting thing is that we are doing that with drones, and we are calculating how many different kind of grasses are there. And once we know which kind of grass is growing in the vineyards, we just because we don't spray any beside, of course, but we can then see if, some of them can give better characters to the to the the vines and the grapes. So we have a great world to discover, but it's a complex word. When we talk about nature, we are talking about the entire earth and probably the entire universe. So we have to be sure that we are ready to learn every day and to achieve different informations from different kind of science. That is not just the economic science or just technological science. So you guys are doing some heavy duty research or practical research, I guess I I would call it But how do you how how are you communicating that to the consumers? And I would start with Italy, but I, obviously, also interested in the United States because there's a lot of, not confusion, misinterpretation of of all these, definitions. That's the the main goal. Of course, we've been working on two different ways. The first one was talking to the great players of the market. So those that are buying wine in some way So I am talking about the monopolies of, Canada or North Europe or the great distribution chains, for example, Walmart, and so on. For example, Walmart, along with other other American companies, I I would say Pepsi, Angel, Unilever, Campbell, Amazon, they're all together into the the association that is TSC sustainability consortium. Is the name of this association. And when we created our standard, we have been discussing with them about it. And we said, what do you think about our standard? Will it be a proper answer for the needs of the consumers? Because at the end, we we have to start on the market from a certain point. And they gave us the the opportunity of, saying it was an approval claim that the, TSC. So the sustainability consortium agrees that the qualities sustainable wine guidelines meet TSC and retailers' expectation in order to adopt an official sustainability code for their wine growers. So we did a work and someone on the market has been recognizing it. We did that in many different ways. Not only with them. I was talking about TSC because it's an American association, but we did that all over the world, and we are still working on that direction. We have a huge problem that is actually, especially for your market, that USA doesn't seat on the OVA in, in France. So the organization that it's creating the rules for the wine world. And the absence of the Americans, it's, of all evidence because when we discuss these matters that are worldwide matters, a huge part of the world of production is there. Italy, France, Germany, and all the other big producers, but, unfortunately, not the states. And the states are important both on the side of the production, but also as a huge market. So in the future, we expect to see more and more discussion on these matters. I must say that our contacts with the the wine institute and the sustainable wine growing galle and so on were not so the the response was not that open. I must say. Wow. I'm surprised, but okay. I'm still trying. And that we will be able to, make all the efforts to harmonize the different standards, the different approach to the problem of sustainability, again, a cultural matter, in order to arrive, to a response that the same response, worldwide. I must say that for example, the American producers, the California producers were talking about sustainability well before any other one in the world. But, unfortunately, we are not yet able to have an open discussion with them. But, I'm not confident we will be able to do that in the next future. I'm definitely confident. I've seen in some of the trade literature that I read. There's a lot, a number of different organizations addressing that. Some located in campus. I'm in, you know, Northern California. Some include Oregon, some don't, and there's, you know, day University of California Davis is doing some stuff. The wine is too. There are many, many people kind of working on the same thing. That's kind of true in Italy too. You have this organization called slow wine. Can you address that? Well, slow wine has been working on different matters. Of course, it's talking about the nature and on on many different ways, but it's more a focus on the small producers, the the producers that don't have a market. And the opportunity of saving this local, traditions and so on. So, of course, we are on completely agreeing on their teams on their ideas, but at the same time, the discussion actually, it's more on the level of, let's do that on all the world of wine, and not just on the small ones, not just on those living in areas that are out of the huge development. Just forgive you an idea. For example, in Italy, there are some huge appelations, but at the same time, small ones that are working on the, wait for being certified as sustainable for the entire territory. And this is quite interesting because probably the first two appelations that will achieve this result will be one, a huge one, prosaicco doc, and the other one, a small one, not below the multiple channel in Tuscany. So one is, on two regions, prosaicco, is produced in Veneto and Frioli. The other one, multiple, nobility multiple channel is, practically, a village in, in the south of the province of Sienna in Tuscany. This is amazing because we are talking about great quantities of wine, great names, and you see that even a small area, or a huge one work on them. When I say huge numbers, if the two operations will achieve the certification before the end of this year, we will have sixty million bottles certified. That's to say fifty million cases that will be certified as sustainable. It's a great day because we are talking about thousand producers, handle sellers. But how is that communicated to the consumers? There's gonna be like, DLC things on the label? Actually, it's not yet communicated. We did we did some some communication during Vinitally to say we are working on, but, of course, we are waiting for the final certification. So we will start communicating there working since two years on these matters. They're not the only one. Monteagino is doing the same. Scansano, again, in Tuscany is doing the same, Bulgaria. Again, in Tuscany, Castel de Montin Pullo is doing the same work efforts and same work. French Corte is, on the way. So there will be a huge number of population in the next future that will be certified as sustainable populations with Aqualitas. They believe that this is a great result. I mean, the world of wine is definitely moving in the proper direction. Yeah. And I I would I would add that I think it also represents a way for the small producers to compete on a more even playing field with the big ones because the definitions terminology and authorizations or regulations in the US would be, saying this this wine is produced with with these theories or processes and it's worth more that consumers are looking for sustainable wines that article that I introduced the conversation with, wine intelligence did a study and, American consumers are willing to pay more for sustainable wines, even though they don't understand what sustainable means or with the it's it's the philosophy more than the specific reality, I think. Yes. It is the philosophy, and it is also the the understanding that we all have that we have to do something for all the problems we already mentioned. I mean, I cannot stay at home and complain about the global warming. I cannot stay at home and complain about, too much plastic in the oceans and so on. If I don't do my little for changing this, this kind of events. No one of us will change the world, but altogether, we can do a lot. And this is the meaning working together. Again, it's something that it's in the consortium in the aim of the consortium, the DNA of our being a producers that join all together in the consortium to write their own future, their own rules, and the opportunities on the market of of the next future. This is exact, what sustainability it's showing us. People can do their little while changing the car. I might be able to buy an electric one instead of, a huge diesel engine. I mean, it's, it's a matter of taking the chisels, I can use, a bag for for going and buying my food that it's in cotton and it's, I can use it for mounts instead of, plastic bag that then is lost in the in the in the oceans. Okay. So let's bring this to a close. One of the things I like to do in these interviews is to ask my guests. We talked a lot about a lot of things. What's the big takeaway and and recognize that, the majority of the listeners to this podcast are in the United States. So of all the things that we discussed, is there anything specifically practical that and so this would be distributors, importers, salespeople, you know, people in trade in the United States can take away from this or or, think about or know about. Well, first of all, the good news in my opinion is that, in Italy, but there are other ones in the world. There are some sustainable standards that can be certified. And when we talk about certification, we talk about a third body that it's saying that my story is true. And if my story is true, it's better than just being a story or a legend that sometimes it's not historical. And this is the first information. So you can look on the label on the bowl for the sign, the the sample or or the the the the certification. And this is the first means we are working on the work hour in progress. It's not just the And accomplishing things as well as heading in the right direction. I look at just the change in attitude that everybody has just before COVID to now. Now this stuff is it was of interest. Now it's really important. And that's been the evolution. Yeah. Well, it is because we realize that we are not the the those ruling on the walls, a little micro. It's a it's something it's something that We don't even see has been stopping us for two years, and let's hope it. We are at the end, but probably we are not yet at the end. So this is has been bringing us to the reality. We are part of a huge system the natural again and the and the universe that we don't control at all. There is something that is stronger than us. That is not just a tornado or a hurricane. That can be also a small COVID that you only see at your micro. And, it's interesting in my opinion because we had time to think about different models of, leaving on this earth. And this is the first good news The second one in my opinion is that this attention to the sustainability, it's, getting into the direction of giving us the opportunity of being couriers. It's not true that couriers it is killing the cat. I believe that if we are curious, we can improve our self. We can learn something every day. I always try to say be curious because, if you're curious, you will improve yourself. And if you are curious about sustainability, just open the report of one company that is, certified, sustainable. And you will discover that if it's not at page one, will be a page ten or a page one hundred, but you will find something that is in your aims and what you're looking for because it's really something that goes three hundred sixty degrees. Okay. Great. I wanna, thank Ricardo Ricastro with today. He's talking on behalf of, Federdock, for being my guest this week. And thank you for sharing your time and your insights. You're doing a lot of, really good stuff. I don't know how you get it all done in still make wine at the same time? Well, the day is long, twenty four hours, you know. You don't sleep too much. I remember someone saying that people that have different interests always find the time for them Yeah. Yeah. So I'm really passionate about my work as a farmer, great producer and wine producer. But at the same time, I think that if you, want, you can find time also for many other interests in your life. I think that may be the most important thing that we talked about today because it's all heading in the in the same direction, but you have to take action to make it happen. So thank you again for being a guest. And, for my listeners, thank you for listening. Thank for for inviting me. And join us again next week where we'll have another, addition of Get US market ready with Italian wine people on the Italian wine podcast. This is Steve Ray. Thank you very much. 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