Ep. 1170 Laura Díaz Muñoz | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

The Italian Wine podcast is introducing a new donation drive this month. It's called y m I f fan. We are encouraging anyone who tunes in on a regular basis to send us your ten second video on why you are a fan of our podcast network or a specific show. We will then share your thoughts with the world, with the goal of garnering support for our donation drive Italian wine podcast is a publicly funded sponsor driven enterprise that needs you in order to continue to receive awesome pre wine edutainment. Seven days a week, we are asking our listeners to donate to the Italian wine podcast by clicking either the go fund me link or the Patreon link found on Italian wine podcast dot com. Remember, if you sign up as a monthly donor on our Patreon, we will send you a free IWP shirt and a copy of the wine democracy book, the newest mama jumbo shrimp publication. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello. This is Cynthia Chaplin, and today I am so happy to welcome Laura Diaz Munoz to voices. Laura is the winemaker and the general manager at Eller's in Saint Helena in Napa, California. And she was born and educated in Spain and moved to California against the wishes of her family, but she now has a thriving and really well respected career in winemaking. So I can't thank you enough for taking the third time to try and make this interview happen. Welcome to voices. Thank you. Thank you, Cynthia. Thank you for have in May. Yes. We made it happen. But, yeah, I know it's it's good to to meet you, at least, via voice and, and I'm happy to to talk and have a discussion about what what brought me here to California and and where I am right now. Absolutely. Well, I I lived in Barcelona for a few years. So Spain is very, very near and dear to my heart, and I know you were born in Madrid. And you've said your grandparents farm in Avila had a big impact on you as a child. And it gave you a really deep respect for the beauty of simple food, well prepared. How did you move from that whole me place where you were very grounded clearly to studying and working in wine. What got you interested in wine? Well, I grew up in Madrid. I I used to spend the summers with my grandparents in in that little village in Abila. Which is actually very closest in between Avila and and the limits with Salamanca. But it's it's I it was a city I was a city woman, a city, a city girl, but I I spent a lot of time with in the farm, and my my grandparents were very simple. They have animals. They, grew everything that they ate, vegetables, they just they just fed themselves with the products that they were cultivating or farming. So that had a big impact of me because then during the rest of the year, I was suspended it in in Madrid, which is a city my family don't have any roots or relation with the wine industry. They they they were not involved at all. So I didn't grow up understanding that wall. But I love food. I love food just because of maybe that connection seems very little that I had with food, with my grandparents. And I understood where they were coming from. I understood the the hard work that is behind farming and we're taking care of animals and the good quality that comes from from that love that they they were putting into it and the passion. So, you know, spending spending that time with that, it it makes me really love the science behind it too. So all all my background in education is based in biology and food and science technology. That's from early days, I knew that I wanted to focus on science. That's that's what I was good at at too as well. So I decided to study that in the university in Madrid. And, I when I was eighteen years old, I joined, a tasting group, that it was in Madrid. I think it was in one in in a wine store in Madrid, I was eighteen years old, so I was officially allowed to drink alcohol. And it was it was very it was very shocking to me, you know, listened to people talking about wine. Like, it was this esoteric, very interesting, and I was starting, learning about the science behind it. So it just it just make me want to know more and more. So at the the last year in the in the university or in college, I I I had to do an internship in a food and beverage company, and there was few wineries, and there was, a consultant winemaker that he was offering, an internship for a few weeks. It was only just few weeks at that time. And and I was like, well, I I like wine. So I raised my hand, for those two or three opportunities, and they they assigned me to work with this consultant winemaker. And since then, The rest is history. I just had such a great time, and he was so important for me, because he he taught me in a in a very short period of time a lot. And is part even more interested in me for the wine. So, yeah, that's that's a little bit, sorry. Sorry about how how I got into it. But, yeah, I mean Yeah. I think this family experiences are so important, and it's amazing how fundamental they can be in everything that we do when we're adults, and even young adults. I I grew up in a place where there was no wine, and sort of like you discovered wine when I was nineteen in university. And it's it's amazing how, you know, that that childhood memory of being with your grandparents and growing things could connect you to this new thing that you hadn't had before, which is it's it's it's amazing. I think people really forget that, you know, childhood experiences are are very valuable to things we do. Yes, Cynthia. So we we create memories. And I have vivid memories of helping my grandparents here in meet in the old house that they had in this farm. It was a really old house. They had the chimney or the fireplace in the middle of the kitchen, and the kitchen was like the center place of the house. A winters were very cold. So we had to you know, as soon as we get up, we'll go to the kitchen and stay there. And it was all about cooking. I have memories, and I I kinda still remember the aromas of that kitchen. And they were cooking this cheapness, at least in Avita. They were they are very unique. They actually cook in the floor is where the base and where you put the wood and where you cook, and there's just a hole, on the ceiling, where the where the smoke just goes out. So there's a a lot of concentration of of aromas. So imagine, you know, a little kid, which I I was very close to my grandmother. I love my grandmother. I had a really strange connection with her. And, you know, I was spending a lot of time cooking with her just seeing what she was doing when, you know, we had chickens and we have to kill a chicken and and cook it. And all the process, for me, was fascinating. So I think that that bring me closer to understanding Adomas and under and also understand how hard the world has it to actually be rewarded with amazing products because my grandfather my grandfather used to, like, get up at three AM or four AM to meet milk the cows. And I used to go with him to to the fields with the cows and and and that milk the taste of that milk was unbelievable. I have those memories. Those memories they got embedded in me, I guess, the same, you know, my father, love wine. And I was I was the only child that I was interested on. On drinking wine with her when he was taking us to restaurants or during family meals, he used to open a really nice bottle of wine. Maybe he didn't know much about it, but, so he couldn't teach me, but I just have very good memories about smelling, a glass of wine and enjoying it with him. So those are memories that they just get so attached to us and and they are important for for me and family is very important for me It's so true. Particularly, the sense of smell, I my background is in psychology long ago before I got into wine. And a lot of studies done with Alzheimer's patients are showing that, you know, towards the end of life really remembering smells is the only sense that we still have left, and those those sense are so important to us, those things. As you said, embedded in your memory, in a way that that can't be taken away those special smells, But I'm so I'm so interested in this with your dad because I know that you've said he helped you get interested in wine as a child. We were the only child who liked tasting wine with him. He used to give you Alberino when you went to Galicia to the food, the seafood market. But your family didn't want you to go into wine. What gave you the courage to do it anyway? It's hard to go against your parents. Well, I I I it's it's, I guess, more complicated than that. My parents came from, you know, very humble family, and they wanted me to be successful as they would like for any of their kids. And, you know, early on, I I expressed my interest on on the wine industry that I wanted to working wide. I wasn't sure back then what exactly. And then they just they just didn't want it because it's like life is complicated enough, why you're gonna make it more complicated. It's it's a it's a tough wall for a woman, especially you that, I mean, I, that I didn't come from we didn't know anybody in the industry. We didn't have any sources. Like, they were just concerned that I it was just a hobby to me, you know, because I and Of course, parents are always worried too about their children, and you you've you've said you faced a lot of pushback in the industry. And you went on your first job out of college working for a winery in La Mancha, and you weren't allowed in the cellar. You know, they didn't like you. You were a lab tech. You were a woman. People said you can't do this. You can't be here. You should be in the kitchen. You know, how did all of this experience affect your work and your goals? Because, obviously, you've become very, very successful. So you didn't listen to any of those people, and you kept doing what you wanted. How did you handle that kind of old fashioned attitude? I mean, it it that's probably why, I mean, what it brought me here to US at some point. But, yes, I mean, early on, just as I finished my my studies and my master d my master in, in all of your business culture, I tried to start looking for jobs and applying for jobs. And there was some wine companies that they were like, well, don't even bother on applying because we are looking for men. You know, like, I I received those kind of comments. And this was eighteen fifty. This was pretty recently. That's just So, no. Yes, I I I I don't I don't know. Maybe I just grew up in a very traditional country and I knew that that was gonna happen. Like, I I you always have that feeling that it's gonna be harder for for for us, for for women. Like, so I I was okay with it. It's like, well, I just have to fight it, fight it back. I'm a very everybody that knows me knows that I'm very driven, that I'm very strong, that I I there's nothing that scares me, basically, which I don't know if it's good or bad. That's the best way to get ahead. I don't I don't know. I don't know. Sometimes, you know, it can be taking us a little bit aggressive, but I'm not. I'm not a very sweet person. But, but, you know, it's like I knew what I wanted. And I didn't understand why not? And I I I know by history, and we all know that, we need to make a change. And and and I knew that things were gonna change eventually. They have to change because, I mean, women, we are very important in in any economy, in any country. Like, we we are a strong workforce, if at least fifty percent of the workforce or potentially. So it's it's I knew that I just needed to insist and keep trying and work hard. It's true that I think that I needed to show that I work harder than others. I think we all have faced that at some point where as women, particularly in the wine industry, we've had to work longer, work harder, work better and smarter just to keep our place, and, hopefully, it won't be like that for our daughters and our sons coming up. I I learned very early on that. I I have to prove that I cool, that it was not gonna be assumed that I cool. With with some, you know, with males that that sometimes it's assumed that they they can do it. And that's that I think is also wrong. You know, like, I think it's we are per people, persons at the end of the day, we are all different. Some women are able to do it, and maybe others want in the same with males. I I I don't know. I just, like, I was very stubborn and very pussy, and I I I had some I I had a lot of support. I have to see that I've been lucky. I think I've I found my professionals that day. So my my my dryness, that I I was very driven, that I was very passionate, and that I worked hard. And and I think I received, hearing that I received help, that has, you know, allowed me to have more opportunities. So who mentored you? I mean, at at that at the beginning of your career, who did you turn to for some advice and support? Who was taking care of you and encouraging you to be pushy. I love that. Being pushy is good. Yes. I mean, believe it or not, that's that first, consultant white maker that I work with. That's why I think that I was very lucky to to have that opportunity very early on. This was, Pepegrazia. Oh, yes. Oh, how nice. You can you don't know Pepegrazia Pepegraffia? Oh, yes. Uh-huh. Nice. He he was very knowledgeable, but he is a very interesting character. I love him. He's a he's a good person. He taught me in a very short period of time what he knew. He was very open, and he saw that I really wanted to continue my career in wine. So he actually was the one recommending me to certain people in the in the university to, enroll in the master, of phonology, which back then, you you it was very limited. The amount of people that weren't allowed to do it, so he introduced me. And I worked with him after that. Few harvests. So he was he was suggesting really good connection. And having that those first opportunities, that helped me build up my resume, I think, it helps me later on on getting other job opportunities. But I have to say when, I mean, talking sometimes about mentors or people that help me, I have a lot of people also that inspire me. And, I when I had opportunity, and this was also by a recommendation of someone that helped me to go into that opportunity, that was Jose Ramon lisarage, who's the Viticulture professor, at at the polytechnic University in Madrid. He also really, she really liked me, and, and he knew that I I will have some future in the one industry. He introduced me to some of the the managers in Consala Diaz. And there, it, I mean, I it was very interesting to work for that company, and even if I did it for a short period of time because I had a great opportunity of testing and meeting James master, which is a master of wine, and he was a woman. And and to me, that was that was what changed what my perception of the capacities or or my confidence, it actually helped me to understand that. I could there will be no limits for me because sometimes the others around us can put us those limits. But when I saw her and I met her in I couldn't speak in English. Obviously, I I barely communicated with her, unfortunately, but I saw that if she was very respected, that she has so much knowledge, and she was so professional, and everybody respected her around they were they were just so impressed by her. And just seeing that behavior, I thought it's like, well, any woman can do it now. So why why am I putting my limits to myself? Why am I thinking that I'm not gonna be able to to achieve better positions or, even a winemaking position. So it was very inspiring. It's amazing, what, yeah, it's amazing, what, a role model. Just someone, even if you don't connect personally with them on a on a permanent level, what somebody's capability in your industry can do to show you that it's all possible that it's all out there. So, I'm glad that you had those kinds of inspiring people in front of you and that you were smart enough to see them for for who they were and to understand how they could you know, improve and impact what you were doing. So you went on. You've you finished your master's in inology and Viticulture and communication, and you went to work in New Zealand and Chile. And, you know, then what happened? Because obviously you're not in New Zealand or Chile anymore. You moved to US in two thousand and seven. So how did that all happen? Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to visit our YouTube channel, mama jumbo shrimp, for fascinating videos covering Stevie Kim and her travels across Italy and beyond, meeting winemakers, eating local food, and taking in the scenery. Now, back to the show. Well, the the thing is that everything everything is linked together, because it was honestly, it it it is. When I met Jane Masters, I my English was so limited like, it was zero. So that's why I went to New Zealand. I I said it's like, well, I I need to get more experience in in when we can try to find a ways, and I need to learn English. I I realized very, very early that I the UK market selling to other markets was important to, to communicate with, you know, with with other countries. So that's why I decided to go to New Zealand. Mostly. And then there, I met another women winemaker, Patricia Miranda. I worked with her there and also an amazing woman, great winemaker, but amazing human being first. And, you know, I I I had all that experience with another, woman, winemaker, a woman, winemaker, and and she put me in contact with the winemaker, that I was gonna work here, in in Napa, in California. She worked briefly with him before. So she she saw that I didn't want to go back to Spain and see put me in contact with him, which is Chris Carpenter. Christopher Carpenter, he's the winemaker that I spent almost a decade actually working Heating Nava. Exactly. And that that was at Jackson Family wines for everyone who's listening who isn't sure about Chris Carpenter. That's Jackson Family for for, yeah, as you said, a decade. Mhmm. I and yeah. So, I I mean, I he He obviously makes amazing wines. He the experience that I had working with him, I I feel very far fortunate. He's very inspiring. I everybody knows his wines. He makes outstanding wines and So I think and also he's a very strong person, but he he gave me also a lot of opportunities too. He helped me a lot to to stay here in the country, to teach me basically everything that I know. In one make in. It's so great. I love the fact that there's been this journey not only through various countries for you, but also through various people. And I think those people are just as much of the postcards of what you've done as as the countries where you've been. And it it wasn't that long after you came to California. You got there in two thousand and seven, and you you were working with Chris, and then you launched gallery wines in two thousand eleven. So that was only four years. What was what was the plan? How did that project come together? So, I mean, sometimes, like, everything comes up. So just a conversation, and then it's just slowly develops into something else. But, after four years working with Chris, I, you know, I experienced my interest, of, of making my own wine or to have my own project or, you know, just express myself in a different way and make wines that they were more closer to my personality. And there was an opportunity with Jackson family wines. They wanted to make a another Sabignon blank, in Napa. And I and Chris, obviously, thought on me, it's like, Lavera, and you've been so annoying asking for this. Because, you know, again, I'm very positive. So if I, I, I, I kept insist then, and so that's it has started just because we needed to make a Soviet black. And from there, it grew up into making multiple wines. And it was a it was a great, experience because it started drastically the brand from scratch from from nothing, making a specific wine style, sourcing the fruit, designing the labels. It it was, yeah, it was it was very fun. And what what grapes were you using? What wines did you end up with the end of gallery. Yeah. So, basically, I work with Sonya and Blanca and Caba and Saba, but we were sourcing or I was sourcing from, Napa Valley most different appelations in Napa Valley and also in Knights Valley. With Knights Valley is a little bit north Nampaabale for the ones that it's an it's maybe not a well known, appalachian, but it's it's part of Sonoma. You can also make a riesling, which, that was a really that was a really fun wine to May coming from spring mountain, which is one of the valetian's high elevation in in Ababale. I think people forget that, you know, it gets cold. If you're at altitude in Napa, it's not it's not the heat that everyone imagines all year around gets really cold in that part of Napa. And now you get that good diurnal temperature change, and you can make amazing rieslings there. I mean, Napa Valley is a very small valley for this size, but, there's a a huge diversity of, micro climates, high elevation, flat, ballet. And there's some people forget also that there's there was various that maybe they are not planted anymore, and they they lost interest decades ago. But Riesling was one of the grapes that it was planted in the valley at the beginning when, you know, pioneers started planting vides in Nava in spring month and probably because it's a cool operation, it maintains some of those those grapes, and they are very successful wines. Obviously, small productions. So they go very quickly, but, Yeah. But they are extremely successful wines, and and they are you have to know that they're there. You don't just generally find them anywhere. Exactly. Exactly. So you became the winemaker and the general manager at Eller's just a couple of years ago. So you transitioned away from gallery away from Jackson. What drew you to others? Why is it so different from everything that you've done up to now? What's what's the dream for you there? Because I know the state is very different. Jackson family wines, as we all know, is very, very big. Albers is small. So I I wanna hear about this transition. So this this probably came also, you know, another connection. Someone from Jackson, family one was close to, the current owners from from alerts. And what it drove me here, it was because I was allowed or they wanted me to manage every single aspect of the business. It wasn't just making making the wine or taking care of the vineyards. I I was basically like, this is your this you can do whatever you think that is, right, at this place. So I just So the perfect job for the pushy woman. Some kind of kind of. I I I think it's it's extremely helpful to have an opportunity where you run a business, that you run the sales or work with sales team. At least for winemakers, I always, you know, to my winemaker friends. I always say it's like it's so eye opening when you actually not you're not just making the one. You actually have to sell it. You actually have to market it. You actually have to take care of employees and be sure that a business is healthy, so it's maintained and it it's been a ride because, obviously, I started in two thousand eighteen, and we have pandemic, fires, all kinds of different challenges that I, unfortunately, we are dealing with in the wine industry. But, I think it's it's been an amazing opportunity for me to understand, you know, how hard this industry is and and businesses, especially for small businesses, like like us, it is challenging, and it is challenging. But, I'm enjoying it. Yeah. Clearly, you are because you're doing really well, but you you're so right. We have to face all of these things that, we didn't think about just ten or twenty years ago, you know, that the the effect of climate change that's so dramatic, and we see it particularly in California. But, and and the forward things, we don't know what smoke tank is gonna do. We won't know until those wines have evolved in their bottles. So There's so much more to think about than we ever really imagined. And so it is a really interesting time to be there. I'm I'm so happy that you're getting that opportunity to do something so new. So What what are your dreams going forward at Eller's? Because now you you are really in the driving seat. You're controlling it. Yeah. So, I mean, it's been, it's been a riot who we're talking about. What we are dealing with climate change. And I think going to, you know, what is climate change doing to Napa or I think everywhere in the world, obviously, it's not only Napa. Everywhere. Mhmm. For sure. I was in Sicily recently, and it's it's incredibly difficult. Yes. It's everywhere. So I I've been taking decisions, and I've been, you know, very supported by the owners, which I'm very thankful. And I think maybe just because I'm I come from a place where traditions are important I I thought that, you know, this is an amazing place. It's a very historical winery. It's been in the valley since eighteen eighty six. One of those old, first wineries built in the valley. And I thought you know, that's we are now at risk of, you know, or not not producing the quality that we we are expected to produce or just just sometimes in the survival of the vines, it's like we need to keep these vineyards healthy for many years. I tried to think on long term. So I decided it's like, well, let's do replanting because these these the vineyards, we are I we have planted forty acres that are surrounding the state, those are the state vineyards and they were planted originally trying to take all the all the heat and and and send that they cool back in nineteen ninety. And I realized it's like, right now, the that is not the right orientation. We need to Oh, absolutely not. Yeah. Completely change, complete change. And the way that we farm, I mean, this this site has been organically farmed since two thousand eight, which is very healthy. I really embrace organic farming, and I didn't I haven't done it before until I joined Eller's, but now, I mean, I totally, agree that that's the that's the way to go for farmers. So I decided, like, well, let's, let's focus on what what are the clones that are doing well in this state, changing the orientation, changing the the canopy management, or just basically the all the trellis we're changing elevating a little bit device. So it's I'm doing a lot of these changes thinking, well, I'm not gonna see results until, like, in next five, seven years, but I think it's what we have to do. I think we need to think on on what is coming in ten years, twenty years, and just be sure that we're still producing very in and making very good wines. So I've I've been taking the responsibility of replanting the site and, obviously, I'm trying to make other other style of wines and putting my imprint in in the ones that I'm making know I'm doing a lot of different things, changing the packaging, labels. I have a really amazing team right now working with me, mostly women, and that was just by by accident, not intentional. But it's fabulous. It's it's fabulous that you have women around you. They're, you know, supportive in ways that that men sometimes aren't. And it it sounds like you're in it for the the long haul. You're, you know, I love when I hear a winemaker say I'm replanting, and I'm changing the trellising because that doesn't happen overnight. That that's, you know, you said five years. I was thinking in my head, eight. So you're you're there for a while. So I I love hearing that faith in what you're doing and that commitment, you know, you're clearly vested in being there and being organic, which is so important, particularly in California, when there's been so much, discussion of Roundup and and different chemicals. So it's wonderful to hear that you're working that way. And I know that your your, you know, elders is giving some of their profits also to cardiovascular and neurovascular research. What's going on with that? Because that's paying back to the community too. Yes. I mean, I think we all have an obligation independently of how long we're gonna stay in a place. I think we all have the responsibility to do what is right. And I think that's that's I think the mentality that in any kind of industry we we still have right now. And I think critical to have it now. That's why. I think I just I'm trying to to do as little as I can, but it's I think it's important. But, yeah, so this is this is also what is a little bit unique about errors is our honors or back in in nineteen ninety six, Janice Renley Duke, which was a French couple. They bought, this property, and it was around the same time. They were French, they were from Paris. They have a linen company that had, you know, businesses in Europe and in in the US. And back then, they decided that, you know, they they they don't didn't have children. They wanted to retire and they sold their businesses and they decided with that that money, create a foundation. And this is the leduc foundation, which, basically, what they do is, it's it's an organization that supports cardiovascular and neurovascular research, by, granting, fans to different projects every year. It's absolutely amazing what they are doing. I I'm obviously a very little part of what they are doing. They they are a very good structured foundation with, very, huge reputation internationally in the scientific world, and they they they support, this kind of projects or research that is or invest in in the development of technology. For the treatment or diagnosis of cardiovascular disease with very targeted programs that they they support every year. So, yeah, we are linked to them. We, a lot of people think that we are, nonprofit, winery, we are actually a business. We need to to run it as a business, but in in some kind of form, we can support also the foundation when it's needed, and vice versa. That's amazing. As you said, a responsibility to do what's right. And I think you know, as you said, you don't have that much to do with it, but, you know, the wines that you're making are are helping this to happen. So it's a very it's a very symbiotic relationship when you're in a company that has that kind of mentality. And it's and it's rare and it's you know, it's special. And I think it's to be applauded. So I'm just I'm just wondering, you know, how does your family feel now? You know, how how are your how's your family about, your wine making? You know, have your friends and colleagues come back to congratulated your even though they doubted that you'd be successful as a young Madrid, you know, Madri Lena woman. Yes. They they are very proud of me. I They should be. I they they they are, but they they also, like, they always say it's like, Laura, you're so brave, you're so strong. Like, you know what you want, and you just go for it, and you make it happen. And I think I mean, they they've always been proud of me, and, you know, sometimes they were just scared and worried about me. But, they are very proud. And, you know, that my father, he's he's very old, and he's, you know, his health is not very good. So he cannot come often to visit. But a few years ago, he came and he saw where I live and and he I could tell that he was very happy and proud for me. So I that's that's a huge reward for me. It's such a good feeling. And and I hope you shared your wine with him, like he used to share albarrino with you when you were small. I I do, but he's a very hard critic. You know? He's old men. What do they like? I tell you. They're never they're never all the way satisfied. They they like what they like. Be before I let you go, what what advice would you give to young women now, trying to come into winemaking wherever they are in the world, not just Napa, not just Spain. Things have changed a lot just in the, you know, couple of decades. You've been doing your work, and I've been doing mine. What would you to say to your eighteen year old self now? You know, maybe I'm I will say just do what you did. Last week, and I will tell you. I was like, you did you did right. You did fine. I I think it's important to understand that, things are still hard, and they are not gonna be coming to us easily that we need to work hard or harder. But it's super important what we are doing because it's it's an example for other women. They will they will see that it's doable and it's possible. And we just need to keep working and proving that we can do exactly the same as anybody else. So that's what I will say, and that's what I say to some women that have approached me and asked me about it. And it it's just keep doing what you're doing if you love it, try it, and work hard. I'm so glad I got to talk to you finally. After all of our efforts, this was a really wonderful conversation, and it's it's great to hear from a female winemaker who is, you know, not an American who came from a different culture, you know, and is so successful in doing something that is really not stagnant. You're you're still working forward replanting, changing trellising, adapting to climate change, and and paying all that mentorship forward to the people that you talk to now. And I think that's very necessary in our wine world, and and people don't realize how important it is to have someone to look up to and talk to and, be encouraged by. So thank you so much for that. Thank you, Cynthia. Thank you. It was a pleasure to talk to you, and hopefully, I will meet you soon. I would love that. I would love that. Alright. Well, have a wonderful day. And take good care. Thank you for listening. And remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcasts in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. You can find us at Italian wine podcast dot com, SoundCloud, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your pods.