Ep. 1525 Richard Kershaw MW | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

Since twenty seventeen, the Italian One podcast has exploded and expects to hit six million listens by the end of July twenty twenty three. We're celebrating this success by recognizing those who have shared the journey with us and giving them the opportunity to contribute to the on the success of the shows. By buying a paper copy of the Italian wine unplugged two point o or making a donation to help the ongoing running costs, members of the international Italian wine community will be given the chance to nominate future guests and even enter a price draw to have lunch with Stevie Kim and Professor Atilio Shenza. To find out more, visit us at Italian wine podcast dot com. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity and inclusion through their personal experiences working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello and welcome to voices. This is Cynthia Chaplin, and today I have the great pleasure of having Richard Curshaw, master of wine, joining me from South Africa. Richard was one of our five star wine and wine without walls judges this year in April as he has been many times in the past. And it's great to have you on the show, Richard. Thank you so much for giving us your time today. It's an absolute pleasure. Good to be on the show. Well, it's great to have a minute to talk to you. Usually, when I see you either you're frantically busy or I'm, or we both are. So it's nice to have a minute to just catch up and chat. I'm assuming that you're back home in South Africa now after a very busy five star and and, Vinitally week, which actually saw you running down the street to catch a bus. So bravo for being the judge who was taking his, responsibilities seriously. Thank you. Yes. No. I know I was caught by I think one of the buses was going across my path and I quickly zipped out much to the amusement of the occupants who were, of course, all my fellow judges. So, yeah. Well, there's there are always a few anecdotes of theveniently weak marathon, and that was one of my favorite ones this year. So anyway, you you, as I said, you've you've been a judge for us many times, and this year, of course, what keeps bringing you back? What is it that you love about five star that you, come and judge Italian wines for us every year? Well, I think, there's a number of, reasons actually. It's not just one particular one. I mean, basically, I'm a judge anyway. So, I love to judge wine, and I I just actually got back from London doing some judging there as well, although in much, much much radio circumstances, and I'm actually gonna be judging tomorrow and the next day for a local competition. But, obviously, with my various hats, whilst judging is one of them, I also do, obviously, make my own wines. And for me, one of the the points of, not just making it, but continuing being a master of wine is be able to, you know, transform yourself with different hats from that of a winemaker to that of a judge, and also I do a bit of education as well. And being a judge means I have an opportunity to look at wines from different perspectives clearly when I'm in Italy, I'm judging predominantly Italian wines, and those wines, obviously, aren't necessarily wines that I'm I I'm familiar with them, obviously, as a mushroom wine, but I'm obviously keen and interested to see you know, what they're looking like right now in in in twenty twenty three and how they, transpire and, of course, keep my perspectives open. I may be tasting prosecco, but I'm not making it, but that doesn't stop me being able to see how Presecco as a category is going to make informed decisions going forward, because actually part of being a master one is continuously learning. So I I really feel one of the things I really enjoy coming back to is is to taste a nice breath of wines, interesting wines. I think we had a what was it? A merlot pettico from Aetna, and I remember thinking it was actually quite good. And, I remember thinking, you know, that's something I wouldn't have had in the day to day. Ruminations because that's what Aetna isn't necessarily famous for, but the point being is that it makes it interesting because people are trying new things in different things. And who knows? Maybe that's something that will become interesting in twentieth time. So, actually, that's one of the things that keeps me coming back, keeping me aware, refreshed of all what's going on and how, you know, how how the category Italy is is proceeding. That's a really good point. It is, five star wine and wine without walls are both focused primarily on Italian wines, not one hundred percent, but primarily. This year, we tasted two thousand two hundred and sixty nine wines over two days. So everybody was on their toes, but I think you're right. We are one of the only competitions that focuses completely on, Italian wines and does give you the opportunity as a judge from another country to taste some wines that maybe you wouldn't be able to get your hands on I know we've had similar comments from other people who were involved in the judging panels, that they aren't able to get some of these newer, more innovative wines from very specific areas in Italy, because they're just not available. They're not being exported being made in too small of a quantity. So I'm glad you got to try a few things that, made you stop and think and and hopefully impressed you. But I do wanna ask you a bit about your wines and what you're doing. I know you're in Algan in South Africa, a place I would love to visit. And working with some of the better known international variety, Chardonay, and Sirah, and Pino noir now. And you've got a thing going called the Clone Head Club. I know you have, you know, colonial selections. Let's talk about that for a minute because I think this is probably very important for climate change and and environmental, best practice. Yes. Well, basically, as you say, we we're in Elgin as Africa, and and I think for the for the listeners that aren't familiar with, elgin as a as an area, So and South Africa generally, it's obviously, you know, South Africa is, seen as a sort of relatively warm region where most things can ripen and Sellenbosch, northern Sellenbosch, especially, and and further north, is very, very true of that. But Elgin is quite unique in that sense because it doesn't have the climate like that at all. It's a much cooler climate fact. It's a cooler than burgundy, so quite considerably cooler and very suited to varieties like Chardonaine Piena noir. Even more so than syrup, as can be attested to this year, where syrup struggled to ripen, grape sugar wise, ripens phonetically, but it doesn't get to the sugars. So we end up with much lower alcohols. But, yes, for syrup, sorry, for Pno and Chardonnay, it is you know, it's an amazingly cool climate. We are right next to the sea, about five to sort of fifteen kilometers, roughly because the region isn't massive and, surrounded by mountains, and those mountains actually are give us a plateau, we're about three to five hundred and fifty meters above sea level. So we're much much higher up, and that proximity to see the altitude, the climate all kind of can choose sort of to to to to a much cooler region with you know, high rainfall. We're we're quite a lot of rainfall by lab eleven hundred mills, which is considerable, and we also get quite a lot of cool nights simply because of our altitude and and seas, close closeness. So, yeah, it's quite an unusual spot. And I think when you refer to climate change, it's an area which, less affected in a sense, climate change will affect South Africa on a, on a sort of, a there's a curve to it. So once you're close to the sea, you won't find the climate change is so acute because, obviously, the amelioration of the Atlantic is gonna gonna help, keep those temperatures a little bit lower. But once you get inland, obviously, that's gonna rise quickly. And inside, we've got sort of the Peru and deserts further north, which, certainly aren't gonna get warmer or already have done. But near near the sea, we've actually got the opportunity to to, grow those sorts of great writers with little little problems, except for ironically enough the the the the the the the challenge of rain because, actually, that's the one thing we've done. We get a lot a lot winter rainfall, but we've actually had quite a bit of summer rainfall recently. Which, of course, does change the the dynamic when it comes to ripening, obviously, because you're you increase your rot incident and and disease pressure. But as such, we've we've actually managed to get some much more linear stars of wine, which actually quite refreshing and fit the the narrative of of many of the drinkers now who're wanting something, you know, with about twelve twelve and a half, thirteen alcohol, not not these monster wines at fifteen or above. And wines, which are a little bit more elegant and finessed. So they kind of fit right in that narrative really, really nicely. Absolutely. It it sounds like they really do. And I I have to thank you as an educator myself for giving such a a beautiful and eloquent description of elgin the climate, the altitude, everything, I hope that my Italian wine academy, WSTT students are listening to this because that was just textbook. Perfect. But tell me a bit about the clones that you're selecting and why. Yeah. So, actually, what it what it comes down to when I started the business in twenty twelve, I was really interested in the different nature of clones because I played with that when I was previously at Muldaboch. And, I noticed that certain clones from the New World, Sh tended to exude that sort of sort of more brighter to an extent, bolder fruit, depending on on the climate, input, and gave us a a lovely sort of, you know, character that actually was very approachable, but tended to become a little sweetness on the back pallet that tended to, to become sweeter with age, sometimes morphing to a sort of honey. So a lot of the wines didn't tend to age. And what I found with the clones that came from burgundy or what we call the Dijon clones, they tended to give a little more mineral, a little bit more acidity, a little bit more backbone, and of course that was enhanced by the cool climate of elgin, to the point that you actually got wines that were age worthy. And I think that For me, the world of wine tends to revolve in terms of the very premium or ultra premium is all about, world class wines is about a aging ability, though, that the wines start off fantastic. They're approachable, then they become something else, and and hopefully something better rather than just getting old. So there was an opportunity in elgin to to to really source clones that were suited to that, you know, suited to my sort of metrics. And so, yeah, we're using a lot of Dejhon clones, if only Dejhon clones, They're all called extremely boring names, which are probably things coming back to the morning. You know, I I I'd love to note meet these people. Probably they are cone heads rather than clone heads, but Probably. Probably. Yeah. But they come up with sort of innovative clothes like c one ninety five, c one ninety six, and they c y five four eight for no real reason. Yeah. These are not romantic poets, are they? They're not. They're they're definitely definitely not. But they all have a part to play and in in at this point, there is a, that part is that they make up the the the clonal selection. And that clonal selection, in fact, indeed, is made up of eleven parcels. So within those parcels, different different amounts of those clones exist. So when when you look at that, my back label, I'm very particular about leaving it. With the vineyards on it so that you can see where the parcels come from and then back it up on the website and also when I do my talks to say that from that different clones within those parcels mean you have twenty one batches. So it's quite a convoluted, possibly, way of actually looking at wine, but it was a very it's a very much to me looking under the microscope, very, very, detailed and have a really deep dive on all the different clones that we use and the different finial parcels that we take from. And, of course, the sword types that those parcels, are cited on. Italian wine podcast, part of the momo jumbo shrimp family. Well, it's I think this, you know, this notion of making a more, scientific and descriptive back labeled is becoming more and more popular, especially with younger consumers who are much more concerned about, you know, the provenance of what they're eating and drinking, being able to see that site specific, information and and sort of getting a better understanding of why some choices are being made, how sustainable they are. It it's all creating a picture and and sort of a wealth of information for new consumers and younger consumers who really are interested in having that information. We see this happening in Italy, in Sicily, particularly on Aetna right now. There's a drive to having, more scientific and, and better descriptions on back labels. And and I think you're a great example of of following through on that and giving consumers real information. Yeah. No. That's very kind. Actually, sorry, odd. I should have emphasized we have a QR code because actually the amount of information is so much that you would never be able to get it onto the back of labels. So Of course. Thank god for QR codes. Yes. Exactly. But what is important is that, yes, it's it's important to be able to get that information back and rather than have me sort of give a give a case, you know, which is interesting and pretty. It doesn't actually mean that a lot unless the person you know, keen on on finding out about wine knows a little bit more about it. And the backdrop of it is is critical, because that gives you the, you know, a door into what the winemaker was thinking, and what the wine is standing for, especially, obviously, if you are concerned about, you know, various aspects of the wine. For example, all our wines are fully enough actually natural wines in the sense that they're not natural wines as I do at wine without walls, but they are wines that because we do have a little bit of sulfites, but they are naturally made, and people are keen on that sort of, the point, and we don't find them or filter them, particularly, and we don't, you know, use, acetylate them or put enzymes or any of the things that, you know, you want to do to to manipulate them. So that that helps people to make choices, you know, especially if they are vegetarian or vegan or anything like that because they're all very, very friendly, to that narrative. Sure. Absolutely. That that concept of low intervention, without having a dirty wine, as you said, some sulfites are are necessary. But that low intervention concept is is crucial right now. And I think also helping with, as you were saying, creating these these wines that are a bit more vertical, and, you know, age better it's interesting how these various changes in practices and in the clonal selection is is producing wines that are completely different style, more elegant, a little bit more sophisticated, not the big punch in the face of alcohol that we had you know, back years ago. So I the story itself all fits into what I see, and I'm sure you do as well, you know, a very modern emerging winemaking across the world. Yes. I mean, in particular, I think that what what we are seeing and it and it's obviously from from my perspective here in South Africa, which is one of the reasons I travel extensively. It's been a longer slope to climb or mountain to climb because Here, we are used to slightly bigger, fuller, more powerful reds. And for example, my pinot noir has been far more successful overseas than locally, because it's seen here often as a light one, which, which exactly what pinot noir is, although light in color and a little bit more powerful in in structure. But it's actually a slow process as, you know, some of the those sorts of wines are now starting to be more mainstream as people are understanding the different style a little bit better. Obviously, overseas, people are very familiar with Pina noir, and especially if they drink burgundy or can afford to drink burgundy, and, of course, there's a number of P knows coming from all around, you know, the rest of Europe too. So I think that that definitely fits in with that sort of fresher, sort of more upright style, also not not not with too much too too much oak, and a little bit more, you know, elegance. So, yeah, that does definitely fit that. And I think that's where Elgin really has a chance for the future. In fact, our styles are quite savory in the PNR. So it's actually a little bit less fruit driven and more sort of more sort of restrained element, which which also, I think, could be very interesting as as we go forwards. I'm now my my curiosity is Pete, so I'm gonna have to get my hands on that. But, before I get you, you know, going and and back to your day today, just for our listeners, and for my own personal curiosity because I'm a nosy person by nature. How did you get into wine, Richard? Of course, now you are a master of wine, but, what was your path into wine? What sparked your interest? Well, I I went to college. I didn't didn't unfortunately, I wasn't the the with the world's best schoolboy. So I ended up sort of going in and out and and and eventually deciding to do a chef's course. Because that sort of seemed to be something I really enjoyed my my both my father and mother were both, who who were divorced, both were very good cooks. And so I got very interested in that, and and ended up working for for a couple of, well, a restaurant and a hotel, and ended up with that doing my wine exams, but, that was largely because I wanted to know about wine, obviously service of wine sometimes one had to do, you know, even if you're at the back. And then I became interested in the, you know, the the the actual concept of one, it seemed to be quite a quite a large format. And I passed my one exams, in fact, did my diploma back in the day, in the early nights. I was actually a a very, very young. In fact, and very quickly thought, well, I'm not I needed the master wine, because I didn't have a degree at the time. It sounded like something maybe I had a calling for. But as soon as I, just before I started, I started working for a wine retail store to you know, a retail store in London where I where I was living and worked there for a few years, but then realized that if I really wanted to pass this master one, I needed to be out in the field. So I actually spent time in California France, in Bordeaux, in Germany, and then lastly in Hungary, and eventually moved to South Africa in nineteen ninety eight, ninety nine, or rather the first harvest was ninety nine. And, at that point, I'd actually abandoned my hopes of doing the MW because I was now just fixated on on the whole concept of winemaking, which used my hands again, a bit like a chef. So suddenly there was a little bit more, you know, which which I seem to be better at, to be honest, to start with. And then, of course, you know, I had to sort of start to look at different courses to help me with my microbiology biochemistry, all the various inputs. And because I was sort of doing it as a mature student, I was now actually much more engaged than I was as a school boy, which I was clearly not engaged at all. I I felt most subjects, but The fact was I was now fully engaged in a in a more sort of adult way, and that was now a chance to to prosper. And in fact, I then got, I've I I then got chatting to a friend of mine who had passed, and they just said, why don't you have another go? You've got clearly the skill set. And so I started it again in two zero six, passing in two thousand eleven. And in fact, that was my sort of second coming when I was, doing the doing the course at Moldabash, it gave me sort of the thoughts of going into, my own business. In fact, actually, my primary primary objective comes back to why I started the business, which was I felt South Africa at the time was a very diverse, interesting place, full of little quirky regions, full of lots of potential, but not always able to put them into a into focus or regionalize them. And, you know, many much many many many leaders of South African wine are sold in bulk quite cheaply. And, you know, seeing, you know, looking at looking at the worldwide challenge, especially because there was a lot of wine available, you know, it was clear to me that wine regions that had actual regional, metrics and you know, man, they had something to to offer, you know, like for, like Piedmont, for example, or or clearly, you know, Burgundy Bordeaux and all those areas, they seem to attract a higher price. And elgin seemed to me as a actually an apple region because it's actually got more apples than grapes. It's actually just just to sort of, as an aside yet. We've got eight thousand hectares of apples and pears and about seven hundred fifty hectares of grapes. So we're really an apple region, which has a bit of grapes planted. So that's the bottom line. And in fact, it's it's an important feature. I'll come back. I'll just, circle back to that. But going forward, that was my reason for coming to welcome because there was a chance to really establish a sense of place and signature grapes. Such as Charmino, that was that that was a real feature. And importantly, coming back to that point about the apples, the land was actually cultivated as an apple region because that was what was profitable. So for those who were willing to change the grapes, it wasn't a question of having no opportunity cost. There was clearly the opportunity to plant grapes, but at the expense of apples, which meant that the they had to add up. You couldn't just plant any old grapes, and they had to make a profit. So that's why they decided to you know, what where I got involved, I said to the growers that we should be focusing on on Chardonnay and then latterly more recently, Pino, but to put grapes that do have, you know, a price, a broken price ceiling, there's an opportunity to to to make quite expensive Chardonnay. In a world that accepts expensive chardon me. Yeah. If you drive the quality up, the people know what chardonnay is. They know what pinot noir is. And if you've got the quality economically, you can make an impact much faster than you know, as you said, with something like, you know, a fiano that not everybody knows what that is. Precisely. Yeah. And and that and there is definitely a price ceiling for something like a fiano or or something like that where you're never going to go above, you know, however much you know, you wanna sell a two hundred euro, Vianna, it's gonna be challenging. So in fact, Chardonay, was a good fit as a white wine grape variety given the amount. And in fact, what's happening is there's definitely now a shift to more plantings. The app the app management has been incredibly profitable. It's staggering just how much these guys can make profitable wise, but they are now starting to feel a little bit of of of the pinch. I think largely driven by the circumstance over the last two or three years. And I think that there's an opportunity to put more vines in the ground, which I think will be exciting. Because the region is small, I mean, seven hundred and fifty hectares is not a mass massive region, and a lot of the grapes, for good or bad, is is is sent outside of the region, about seventy seven percent is made in other locals, not in Elgin. So whilst the producers, number about seventeen, it it would be nice to see more wine being made here, or importantly, whatever wine, if it isn't made here labeled as elgin, because that will give it a stamp of quality, and that will give it a sense that it has a value attached more so than another region. So I think that's really, really important. And for me, that's one of my driving factors being here. That's so interesting, both from a a marketing standpoint and an educational standpoint. I I love the idea of establishing a sense of place, that seems to be a a hot sort of buzzword at the moment, kind of taking over from our our old notions of terroir, but establishing a sense of place for elgin wines in particular, not only just for marketing and and, you know, we all have to make some money. But also educating people, not just students, but, you know, wine lovers around the world about the different wine South Africa is not just one place. You know, Elgin is a very particular location as you've pointed out. So I I wanna wish you all the best with this because it sounds like you're on the verge of more exciting, you know, projects and prospects in elgin, and you haven't been there all that long, you know, just over ten years. So it's still quite a lot to accomplish. I'm so glad you could come on today. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Alright. Take care, Richard, and be safe in your travels and your, judging adventures. And I'm sure we will see you back in Roona soon. Absolutely. We'll see you next year. Okay. Cheers. Thank you for listening, and remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcasts in world and the only one with a daily show tune in every day and discover all our different shows. 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