Ep. 1945 Wanda Mann | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

The Italian wine podcast is the community driven platform for Italian winegeeks around the world. Support the show by donating at italian wine podcast dot com. Donate five or more Euros, and we'll send you a copy of our latest book, my Italian Great Geek journal. Absolutely free. To get your free copy of my Italian GreatGeek journal, click support us at italian wine podcast dot com, or wherever you get your pots. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity equity and inclusion through their personal experiences working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello, and welcome to voices. This is Cynthia Chaplin. And today, I am very happy to have Wanda Mann as a guest on the show. Wanda is in the East Coast. She's the editor of the Psalm Journal in the USA and the founder of the very popular wine with Wanda. So Thank you so much for giving me your time today, Wanda. It's one of those points in the year where we're all so busy, and I really appreciate you coming on. You know, thank you. I always have time for Italy and Italian wine. So this is a pleasure. Well, it's perfect. It's perfect. I feel like I across a lot of bridges. I obviously live in Italy. I've lived in Italy for a long time and chose to focus my career here, but I am American. So I love talking to my American colleagues and finding out what's going on, plus you guys are so much ahead of us in terms of DEAI. I am just in awe, so it's always nice to hear what's going on there. So before we get into a deeper discussion, let's talk about how you got into wine know, I know you've got a BA in cultural anthropology from Pompona College in California. And, well, I'm guessing you weren't really thinking about going into the wine business when you graduated. So what got you interested in wine? And when did you decide this was the bright career path for you? Sure. You know, it's definitely one of those things when I look back. I see things in my life that were kind of leading up to it, but I didn't really put it together. And you're correct to say in college wine was the fine wine was the furthest thing from my mind and my friend's minds. It was I don't know about you, but I had no money in college. Exactly. But when I returned to New York, I started working professionally as an events planner. And one of my jobs was the in house events director at the Princeton Club in Midtown. Sara's responsible for about twelve events per month for members, and I quickly discovered that the best way to fill seats, keep members smiling, get them in the clubhouse, keep my boss happy, was to have wine and spirits tastings. And so I started meeting people in the industry. And at that point, I have to say, I knew there was white wine, red wine, and wine with bubbles. I did not know much about wine at all. And, I made a contact that one day said, you know what? You were so great to work with here at the club. On your day off, come to one of our events. And that was maybe two thousand and something. I don't remember the exact year, but it was my first time sitting across the table from a wine maker, and I was just mesmerized by by his passion, this whole language that I didn't know, the way he spoke about these grapes and these vineyards, like they were family members. And it just it was the catalyst I started going to tastings on my own, buying books, meeting people, I was already blogging at that point. It was more of a lifestyle blog and newsletter. And I started incorporating wine coverage, and I found that people responded. And soon it was all wine all the time, and I haven't really looked back. It's more fun in writing about little black dresses in Mass scara. There's a lot more interesting stories and wine for me anyway. Oh my god. That is so true. Yeah, Lbd. There's only so much you can do. Wine is different every day. So Well, you founded wine with Wanda in two thousand and eight. So what gave you the idea? You know, obviously, it was, you know, challenging to get some traction. It, you know, you were young. What was going on with you? You know, young woman of color, you said you didn't really know all that much about wine, you know, what's your mission with wine with Wanda? How has your audience grown? What's it been like this little voyage of wine with Wanda? Cause it's hugely popular now. So I wanna hear I wanna hear the backstory. And I will say it's had a few name changes. So my audience, you know, I'm kind of like a pop star. It kept changing her name, you know, when Prince went from Prince to the artist formerly known as Prince. So not that I'm in that league. So I started off. I was man about town, m a n n, about town, and I was really focused on New York events and cultures. I built that audience. And then the audience stayed with me when I became the black dress traveler taking my little black dress around the world and talking about food, wine, and culture. And then they stayed with me when I became wine with Wanda because I really wanted to get down to the essence of what it was. It's like, I'm Wanda, and I talk about wine, And for the first time in my life, I was like, wow, I really like my name. I never liked my name growing up, but why would Wanda seem to roll off the tone? So really my mission was, you know, when I started writing about wine, there were a lot of young women like me At that time, I was in my thirties, early thirties. And, you know, we were making a little more money. You're moving up in your career, and wining and dining is definitely a part of networking and professional life. And I think we all wanted the confidence. We would look at a wine list and say, oh, I know what a Vermontino is. I know that San Sarah Sabignon Blanc. So I think as I was learning and sharing that information, It would just hit at the right time for that group of young women, especially. Now that we're all a little older, and we kind of have that foundation, I think, you know, people are traveling more. They wanna know about regions. They wanna know about the stories behind the winemakers. They wanna, you know, just see how it incorporates into their lifestyle. So it's been a journey. I always say I don't call myself a wine expert. I share what I learn. I'm a wine geek. So, you know, I should know a little more than my readers, but always say I'm still discovering. There are things that I definitely don't know, and that's the beauty of wine, is very humbling because I think even I've spoken to masters of wine, and they will say I'm still learning. So I always regret it not going to grad school, but, for me, wine is kind of fulfilled that desire for me for education and to keep learning. And I think for for consumers, when you present it in a way that's approachable, I always wanted to see You don't need to be a specialist. You don't have to be a wine geek to enjoy wine. And I think there's definitely room in this industry for new voices, and we're seeing more and more of that now. So I'm happy to say that maybe I wasn't of the earlier, of the new voices, and now that the conversation is great to have so many different perspectives and we have communicating about wine. Yeah. It's so true. It's it's very interesting. I mean, obviously, my career has been in wine for over twenty years. Mostly because I never get bored. You know, you can, you can know everything about a grave and a location and tear wire, but every year, especially with climate change, is different. So I never get bored. There's always something new to learn. How has your audience grown and changed? You know, who was your audience at the beginning? You were man about town. I love that. And black dress traveler. So, you know, what how did your audience change over time? Who are they now? So true. Yeah. Definitely, like, when I started, was more women women, ninety percent, probably in their late twenties, thirties, early forties. Now when I look at who I hear from and who leaves comments and reaches out, It's men, it's women. They're in their twenties, they're retirees. They're across the country. I hear from people overseas, and it just really shows how wine. I always say wine is the great connector. Right? So is something that connects you no matter what your demographic is. And I try to present it in a way that all of those different audiences can resonate with what what the information that I'm sharing. So that's it's been exciting to see the audience grow. You know, when someone, you wouldn't expect if you're at a tasting comes up and says, hey, I read your, your newsletter. I love what you do. I said, oh, wow. Thank you. So it's a diverse audience. It's it's really fun. And how many followers have you gotten at? How many people are reading your newsletter? How because you've been at this now for, you know, fifteen years. Yeah. You see. And I have to say I have a love hate with social media. I mean, I know it's been necessary evil for what we do, and it's great in so many ways, but I do try not to let the numbers dictate what I do in a sense that I don't write content with the goal of how many likes is this gonna get. So, you know, I do have about twenty thousand followers on Instagram, same on Facebook. I have a very healthy number, you know, subscribers for my newsletter that respond. But, I think once you start chasing clicks and try to cater your content, in that way, you lose it from me. And again, I can only speak from my experience, creates a pressure and you're you find yourself maybe not writing about the things that are meaningful and passionate for you. No. Exactly. You lose a bit of integrity. I I completely agree with you on that. And as you said, your numbers are totally healthy, and a twenty thousand followers is nothing to sneeze at, and they're following you for a reason. You have a very authentic voice. That's how I found you. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So it's, I it resonated with me that you're not playing the game of, you know, influencing and all of that sort of stuff. So you've clearly got this, you know, great interest in pursuing wines in lots of ways. You know, I know you became a certified specialist of wine for the society of wine educators in two thousand and fifteen. So going back a ways again, how did that help you grow in the wine sector? I'm a wine educator as well. It's one of the feathers. You can't do just one job in wine or you die of starvation. So Yes. For door. How how did becoming an educator change what you were doing? You know, how do you feel about wine education? It's a very interesting topic, where we're going with it. Oh, definitely. And I'm happy to say fast forward. I say I became a certified specialist of wine in twenty fifteen, and I'm on the board of the Society of wine educator. So, that's been quite a journey. For me, you know, initially, when I when I signed up for the course, I was still working a day job full time that was not really related to wine. So I was like, you know, I need to find a way to enhance my knowledge, provide me with the good foundation. So I come right with a bit more confidence of authority. And it was just a perfect program for me because it was a self study course. There was a weekly online class with a wonderful teacher, and it was really nice to kind of have this little group. So that was really the the first goal was to really just have it enhanced my own personal quest for knowledge and really improved my writing about wine. Now that I'm doing a lot of seminars, for consumers at festivals and for private clients, I'm like, wow. That's really come in handy. I guess I am a bit of an educator now. You know, we have two credentials at SWE, certified specialist and wine educator. I don't have the official educator credential, but I am out there doing a lot of public speaking and leading tasting so that is a form of education. And, I think it's important. I think it's wonderful that there's so many opportunities. You can go as far as you want with with the credentialing programs. And for me, I I'm very happy with where I am. I'm kind of an auto didact in a sense that I get so much knowledge also just from traveling and talking to people and tasting with all of these wonderful wine makers and so mayonnaise. So that's a big part of it, but definitely the nerd in me, you know, love having that stack of index cards in studying and taking notes. I hear you. Yes. I'm I'm a, you know, three ring binder. Yes. With no clean your card, girl. Yes. Absolutely. So I love that. I love that. Well, and I like that framework. And I like being able to pass on, you know, as you say, you know, having a voice of authority to a certain expect, you know, extent where you can pass on information and people understand that you are speaking from a place of knowledge. And I think that's very important, especially as we were saying neither of us are huge fans of social media, although we both realize how important it is, there are a lot of people in the wine sector these days who anyone can have a bikini a glass of wine and say wine expert on their Instagram, and they may or may not be passing on knowledge that, is legit. So. Yes. I never wanna be a source of misinformation. Right? So That's a very good way to put it. So it's very important to me. And I'll tell people, sometimes I may be a little slower, you know, I'll be at a press event. It might take me a few weeks longer to write that article or to, you know, put that post out. But I triple fact check myself. You know, I just and again, we all make mistakes, but I think if you come from the place where Wow. I really did the work. There's just a sense of relief, especially because social media travels so fast. And we've all seen it, you know, when someone very enthusiastically says something wrong and it's clearly they just could have googled it and happened correct information in a minute. So leading with other things, you know, yes, it's great to be entertaining and fun. And, you know, there's definitely the glamour aspect to wine, but at the end of the day, you have to have your facts right. And it's important to do the work. And it's a craft. You know, this is this is a craft. This is something that people are making that people ingest into their bodies. So, you know, the glamour and all of that, we have to pair it back to at some point or other, people are going to drink what you make, and you need to be, you know, we need to, as professionals, talk about these products in a way that's really respectful of both our consumers and our producers. So I am completely on board with you on that one. The one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you today is because you've got a great interest in Italian wines, which makes me super happy. I I live in Valpolice, so you know, you've judged in Italy a few times in Naples and at our very own five star wines and wine without walls, which I've judged as well. And you became a cavalieri of the sovranos the, nobelissimo, ordinary, al marone, and ricciotto. You know, this is my this is my backyard, Marone, and ricciotto. So in other words, the sovereign and noble order of amarone and ricciotto, these are lovely wines from from right here. So what drew you into the Italian wine world? You you went to college in California. You live in New York. How in the world did you get interested in Amaroni and Ricciato is a niche thing. This is a sweet wine. So, how did you get hooked on those two? Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to visit our YouTube channel, mama jumbo shrimp for fascinating videos covering Stevie Kim and her travels across Italy and beyond, meeting winemakers, eating local foods, and taking in the scenery. Now back to the show. Well, you know, I guess starting from the big picture with just Italian wines in general, I think part of that is just growing up in New York City. Where Italian American culture is just so ingrained, in our everyday lives. So I think for many of us, the first red wine that we taste is probably a county or county classical. Now we didn't know what it was And it was often in that little, you know, fiasco on the table with it that a red sauce restaurant, as we call it. But, so I think there was just a comfort level and familiarity. And the other thing is were very blessed in New York that the Italian producers love to visit us so often. So as I was starting to venture out to trade tastings and and sit down events, I found that eight out of ten times the invitations were to Italian, tastings. And, again, I came in. At one point, I was like, oh, I didn't know. Oh, Barroghorne, Bernelo. Those are different. These are all things I learned just going to tasting. So I always say that Italy has been such an important foundation and how I approach wine, learned about wine, learned to talk about wine, engaging with producers. And so, again, you'll be coming, you know, part of the, I call it the Amareno, Amarrone secret society. Just came really through though, those connections, you know, visiting the region. And it's such a fascinating wine, you know, because most consumers don't know how it's made. Right? They know I'm on it. They know it's a big red. When you start studying and learn about a high cemento and his whole process. So, again, if something just kind of came into my life organically, I didn't seek that out specifically, but, I'm very honored to be a part of that. And did you come to to Italy to do that course? Well, it wasn't it wasn't really a course per se. It was, honestly, it was thanks to my friends at Bertani. Marvelous. Marvelous. And there were a group of us that were visiting for the Bertani Amaroni Academy. And at the end of our our classroom sessions with Andrea Lonardi, and we did some work in the vineyards. They surprised us with this beautiful ceremony where we all became mited, so to speak. So, yes, it's, it's a it's a nice fun thing to share. It is. And and, of course, Andrea Lonardi just became the second Italian master of wine. So, very, very big news with him. So that was that was nice of you to throw that in there. That was not in my questions, but, very true, very true. So let me just ask you, you know, what differences do you see between the wine world in Europe and the wine world in the US say. You've clearly gone back and forth many times over the past fifteen years. How do you see those differences shaping up? Oh, that's a tough question. Always feel like especially living in New York, living in Manhattan. I definitely feel that I'm in a wine bubble, so to speak. And sometimes I have to remind myself that there are other things that happen in this city as well, not everything is all wine all the time. I live in verona. Believe me. I understand. Yeah. So you get it. But I think the difference is just the fact that it's a multigenerational affair. It's going back centuries in Europe. And, you know, we're still, you know, relatively new in some ways to the game, and then we had that horrible thing called Prohibition that set our country back quite a bit. So I think there's why there's so much excitement for us when we go to Italy and the other European nations that make wine is because it's so entrenched and just so natural. It doesn't feel like work, you know, in a sense that it's just part of the life. It's part of the food. It's part of the culture. As part of spending time with your colleagues and your family. So for me, it's more a vibe more than a specific thing that I can point to. You know, New York, I'll spend the day. Sometimes I have three or four tasting events. In a day. And I said, okay. I'm gonna Uber to this one and catch the train and that one, and you're in and you're out. And you're dealing with the traffic and this and and when I'm there in Europe, I'm just one hundred percent focused on wines. All of those other barriers kind of disappear. So I can really just kind of relax into the experience a little bit more. That's that's so interesting. It's I I, of course, as I said, I live here, but I, you know, I grew up in Ohio. I've lived in Europe now for longer than I lived in the states, but, It's it's interesting to hear how that the the ancientness and the tradition, you know, of of wine in in Europe is so different from the US, you know, California wine industry, New York wine industry, still quite young. Mhmm. It's fun to hear how that feels different to you. Let me just ask you, and this is kind of out of the box question. How is the low and no alcohol trend affecting the wine industry for you in New York because we don't really have that happening in Italy. We know it's out there. We talk about it, but it's it's not happening here. So I'd love to hear what you have to say about that. Yes. It is definitely a big conversation, you know. I was on the splendid table last year, and I was out at the Aspen, food and wine classic. And one of the questions that they asked me was about, you know, no alcohol wines. I said, personally, I like my wine with a little alcohol. Right? But I think what's happening now, and I know I believe there was a great panel within Italy with Gina Colangelo and some other, thought leaders on this issue, kind of this new prohibitionism You know, so for a long time, we all leaned on this, you know, the French paradox, right, how wine can be part of a healthy diet and the health benefits. And then all these recent articles coming out in the opposite direction saying no wine is good for you at all. It's so kind of creating this panic and confusion among consumers. And I think those of us who are wine writers and communicate about wine, I think our message has always been in moderation just in the saying where you wouldn't eat five snickers bars in a day or even really good dark chocolate you wouldn't over indulge. It's all about balance. But they're definitely there are consumers and there are valid reasons. I understand why people would want to try these and seek these out. I was someone who honestly never paid attention to alcohol levels on bottles as long as I felt that the wine was balanced. But I do look a little bit more now because people ask me about it. I think what we don't want, sometimes I feel when I see all of these negative anti alcohol, things that are bubbling on social media, I don't wanna feel like somehow I'm the neighborhood dealer, like, oh, Wanda's out there trying to get people hooked on wine. Because wine is not about being hooked or becoming addicted. It's really connects us to so many larger things. Like I said, the the cultural traditions. It's a way to understand the culture's history, politics, science, art. So, again, there are definitely times when the conversation, and I don't think the industry has really quite found a way to respond. I think we're starting to. So low alcohol wines, definitely a time and a place for them. No alcohol. I think it allows maybe those in our life who aren't drinkers, you know, to participate in this ritual so that while everyone else is having a glass of wine, they're not just drinking, you know, sparkling apple cider that they so I know this is a very convoluted response, but I guess I'm still trying to grapple with it because it is a big conversation every day. I actually just received an assignment I'm working on a list of low ABV wines, for the summer, and they specifically asked me to highlight wines that are twelve percent and under. So when I sent out my queries to all of my wine folks, I was amazed at how There's a lot out there. And I didn't realize there are certain brands you hear about more, but there were a lot there were intentionally, like, oh, we're under, you know, we're ten percent. We're nine percent. People worrying about the calories and wine. So It's definitely a lot of the conversation here. And I call it part of maybe the lululemon culture. You know, wellness here, I think, is a different idea than wellness and other places of the world. It's very much a commodity and trendy So we'll see. I'm curious to see where it goes. Yeah. I I love this answer. This is I think that's one of the most, honest answers I've had from anybody, who's living in the states you know, and you're confronting this far more than we are in Europe, particularly in Italy where, you know, everyone just turns up their nose and says, absolutely not. We, in fact, tasted in our office today a zero alcohol French sparkling wine, which we we all pronounced tasted like, prune juice and and medicine, and we didn't like it. But but it's it's not it is just not a thing here at the moment. And we all recognize that it is in the states, and it is a trend, and it is an important trend. It's very economically, going to be important at least for a while. We'll see where it goes as you said. But I think your answer, and I love the lululemon culture and wellness as a commodity, is indicative of, you know, the Americanness of this at the moment, and it will be interesting to see if it spreads to Europe, the World Health Organization is threatening us with, you know, sort of cigarette ish labels, wine kills on, on, on labels, which I can't imagine ever happening, but it's a very interesting conversation to have, and I love your perspective because we are not, you know, we don't see it as much as you do there. And, I have six children, and some of them live in the UK, and one of them lives in the US, and they do see it more than we do. So it's an interesting conversation. And I think particularly for people under forty, this is this is something that we have to be aware of. And if we're not, it it we're being foolish. So I love your perspective. I I'm very interested to hear. I know how you feel about being the neighborhood dealer. That's quite that's quite funny. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's very interesting. And my wine classes with young people, because I deal with, you know, I do all sorts of things, training for for different things and private clients and diplomats and but young people, I I don't want to feel like I, you know, I'm being a den of iniquity. So it's very, very interesting hearing your perspective. Especially from New York, which I know is getting a lot of this, low and no alcohol and all kinds of alternative drinks and alternative packaging. It's fascinating to hear how that's going. So as you said, we'll just have to keep an eye on it. It could be a trend. It could be here to stay. We'll have to see. But, well, more recently, I know you've been really, really busy in the world of wine publishing and joining the Psalm Journal in twenty twenty and becoming their East Coast editor in twenty twenty one. As well as writing for other wine publications. So what took you into this sector of the wine business? You know, writing, I'm a writer too. It can be, a little nerve wracking to put yourself out there and your opinion out there. So what got you into, writing and going to work for the song journal. Again, it was all kinda very organic. I, you know, I always laugh when young people, you know, say, oh, how did you do it? I'm like, I really didn't have a plan. I I know I'm supposed to give you a better answer than that. But, you know, I always writing was always my first love. So, it's so pretty much anything important. It happened in my life academically or professionally, writing was a part of it. And when I was, you know, doing my blog, I always took the writing part very seriously. And, you know, more people were reading it than I realized. So that led to me getting, you know, some assignments here and there. And, I've always loved magazines. I mean, is kinda sad that, you know, now we have the immediacy of the Internet, which is great, but I just remember spending a lot of time, you know, using my allowance to go by glossy magazines. And there's something about a writer, you know, seeing your byline and prints on paper is a really still an exciting feeling for me no matter how many times it happened. So, really, being with the Psalm journal, and, you know, and getting, you know, placements in food and wine and Savur or Napa magazine, You know, it's almost like a snowball effect. You publish one piece. Someone sees it. They like it. They reach out to you. And I've just been very blessed. As you know, so much of this industry is just about relationships. So I just feel really fortunate that I've been able to cultivate some really close relationships with great allies and people who encourage and support and help me grow. So I wish I could say I had some grand plan that led me to the magazine, but was kind of a dream I always had, and it kind of, you know, my path led me there. I don't think anybody has a grand plan in wine. I really don't. I think it's one of those things, as you say, it's very organic just like wine itself is, but Let me ask you what's a day in the life of the East Coast editor for some journal like? Oh, it can vary. It can be, you know, if there are important producers coming to New York, I'll taste with them and write a profile. It could be a helping put together seminars and panels like we do at Charleston Food and, wine and food festival, you know, representing, as often as we can, you know, the magazine at different events here in the city. You know, trying to cover other parts of the East Coast as well. Just, you know, it's tough because I am based in New York and so much happens here. But I do try to make sure I'm getting input from other other places. So, yeah, it's it's a fun job because no day is the same. No day is the same. Yeah. I think that's one of the best things about working in wine. No day is the same, which is great. So you've also become a speaker at wine events and leading tastings and seminars from time to time. So what's your goal now? You know, what would you like to achieve in the next five years? Where is Wanda gonna be? What's she gonna be drinking in two thousand and thirty? Oh my goodness. Well, I definitely I love the the variety because, I still love writing because it's at the foundation of what I do, but I definitely love more than I thought I would speaking in front of people because you get that real time reaction. You see their eyes light up when they taste the one that they really love, or they hear a fact that they weren't aware of. And I just love to see that and to interact with with consumers in real time. It's just you know, I I love karaoke. Oh my god. Okay. That's an interesting fact. But it's almost like that feeling of when you're singing a song and the crowd is with you and you're in it together, that's how I feel about leading wine tasting. So I definitely want to do more of that. I'm doing more of that. I recently signed with the literary agents. I hope that my book will be out in the next couple of years. Oh, what's the book? Well, it's about wine, but it's not a how to. I mean, I think we have so many beautifully written books that are more technical wine guides. For me, it's more about how wine, intersects with all of these other issues in our life, spirituality, resilience, redemption, faith, passion. It's kinda like chicken soup for the soul, but wine for the soul. I like it. Kind of my journey, but also I'll just be interviewing producers and other prominent people in the industry to see how wine has played into, some of these other parts of their life. So, yeah, I'm still, you know, sketching it out, but, That's the goal. That's a good goal. That's a very good goal. So so before I let you go, what advice would you give to young people who want to get into the wine business, like, at this point in time? And if things have changed so much, especially since COVID, is there anything you would do differently if you could go back in time, fifteen years, anything you would change in your path? What would you say to somebody who asked you right now at the age of twenty five? How do I get into wine? You know, I wouldn't change anything because I think at the end of the day, the great thing now, I think there's so many more opportunities, not just in major cities like New York, but all over the US. There's so many opportunities to go to tastings, to visit tasting rooms. You know, we have these urban wineries. So I think the opportunities are there. Always tell people, my advice is very simple. Show up. Show up, be prepared, and be pleasant. And that will open more doors and you realize you don't take away this idea that I don't know anything. You're there to learn. So show up knowing as much as you can. If you invite it to a tasting, spend ten minutes on the website, know something about the producer, be prepared to ask a question, you know, forge relationships. If someone invites you to a tasting, email them and say thank you for the invitation. I think if you're just you have to re me remember the human factor in it. And I think sometimes when we're so focused on reaching a goal, like, I wanna achieve a, b, and c, you need people to help you along the way. And that's also the joy of wine. It's that it puts you at a table of people that you probably never would have met in your life. Wine really brings interesting people together. So I always just say, don't be discouraged by what you think you don't know. You're there to learn. Keep showing up be polite, be prepared, be nice. And I think that's just a rule for anything in life. And, you know, try new things. You know, try new things. You have to step out of your comfort zone if you want to move forward. Absolutely. I I really agree. I think that's beautiful advice. It's kind of that kindergarten advice. Be polite. Be nice. Share, try new things, and and forge relationships. I think wine is all about that and has been for, you know, thousands of years. Wine was meant to be shared. And I think that's a wonderful way to end our interview. I can't thank you enough for coming on. It was so much fun to talk to you and hear what's happening in New York and and hear what's happening with wine with Wanda. So thank you very much for your time, and I know everyone who listens in is gonna love this interview. Except for the lululemon people. Oh, come on. We'll love it too. Definitely. Well, thank you so much, Cynthia. This was a joy. I appreciate it. Thank you for listening, and remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast among the leading wine podcast in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. You can find us at Italianwine podcast dot com, SoundCloud, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your pods.