Ep. 2151 Alice Achayo | Voices with Cynthia Chaplin

The audience I saw in mine were were essentially, people like myself who are not, from this country, who are immigrants, right, immigrants of this country who have who come from a culture that's different from out of here and really wanting them to feel invited to the world of wine and wanting them to feel seen, in the world of wine, and and I wanted to do that via their cuisines because food is such an an important part of our cultures. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences, working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello, and welcome to voices. This is Cynthia Chaplin. And today, I am thrilled to have Alice Echayo on the show because this is my third anniversary of hosting voices. I can't believe it has been such a long time, and I'm so grateful to Italian wine podcast for having given me this platform to have all of these amazing conversations about diversity, equity, inclusion, language, sustainability and all kinds of other things. It's been a wild ride for three years. I've met some great people and had some really amazing conversations. And Alice was a person that I interviewed two and a half years ago, neither us can believe it's been that long. I interviewed her in May of twenty twenty two just a couple of months after she founded the wine linguist, which is her handle on Instagram and her business as well. So Alice is from South Sudan, but she grew up in Northern Uganda, and she moved to the US when she was twelve. So since the time of our first interview, she was named a wine enthusiast future forty tastemaker in twenty twenty three, She received a Black Women and Food beverage Master Award in twenty twenty four, and she was named one of seven fifty Daily's drinks innovators for twenty twenty four. So a lot has happened since last time we talked, Alice. Thank you for coming on today. Of course. Thanks for having me. Yeah, a lot has happened, and I don't know where when and how it all happened because time seems to be just flying? Well, it's fantastic. You you've you've grown the wine linguist from nothing. You know, when I when I first met you, it was just starting, and now it's this huge, amazing, powerful force for good You've got almost three thousand followers on Instagram now, and you've been a speaker at all kinds of events across the US, and you're shedding amazing light on how important it is that we change our wine language. So Tell me how you're doing. You're you're out in Oregon now. So did you imagine all this would happen in such a short time? No. I I did not. And to be honest with you, it's not even you know, I know that the work I've set out to do is is so big, that it's a big vision. And so to be honest, I I this is not even close to to anything that I've set out to do. So I don't actually actually look at it and see that we've done a lot, which is I know I I should probably do a little hindsight and just to check and be like, look at how far you've come, but because I know of how big the work is, I feel like I haven't even really begun, but I appreciate. Well, that's why we're here today because you you are way too humble, girl. You are you are doing amazing, amazing things. So you know, when you started the wine linguist, your goal, you know, not a tiny goal, actually. Quite a big goal was to highlight global cuisines, innovate approaches to discussing wine, increase accessibility and relatability to diverse drinkers. Raise awareness around the word of winemakers and farmers. So, you know, as you said, this is you set off to do a gigantic thing. You know, how how do you feel you're going? You know, it's a it's a moment for me to reflect on the past few years. So I'm gonna make you reflect too so that I'm not all by myself. You know, has has the mission stayed the same or has it evolved? How do you feel it's going? Yeah. It's really amazing. All those things you've mentioned actually will seem like they're separate things, but when in fact they're all connected. So an example is, when I host my, wine and dinner events, which usually is a collaboration between me, and a chef. And really, the goal is to work with cooks and chefs from, cuisines from around the world or to the global south. When we host those dinners together, all of those components that you just mentioned of my work, come into play, right? And so, curating the wines from producers that are doing incredible things in their own right, whether they're usually smaller producers, but really are out there, whether producing wines from incredible, varietals, and no one's thought of. So here, for example, in Willow Valley, we tend to think of Pio noir and maybe Charmin comes second, but there are other vitals that are doing really well here. And so I found those producers that are doing that, and they have incredible stories that I want to share. And so I look at the menu, speak with the cook and or chef about the menu, and I curate the wine list for that. And what I'm looking for are producers whose stories are worth sharing, and not to say that I am some sort of judge here, but I am drawn to people whose stories are genuine and whose wines are genuine. And so I'm I'm very excited to share those and I want other people to be able to know them more. So look at the menu, and then I, you know, I've been able to meet winemakers here little by little, in the in the short amount of time that I have in my days. And when I taste wine, I can usually remember the palette and because I associate, pairing with each one. And so I then will curate this wine, and my job during that dinner is to really be an ambassador for these producers, right, to tell their stories whatever part of it that I think is really interesting and very exciting, about these producers told through my sort of storytelling, style, I suppose. And so I'm presenting to usually, right, a guest, list that's quite diverse. They've come to not only experience this cuisine that maybe they're new to or that they already love, or they've been to the country of that where the cuisine is coming from, and they're really excited to see it here in the US. So you have a table full of, really true fruities, and I hate using that word because I think it's just lost meaning over time, but These are real foodies who are very excited about, not only experiencing another cuisine, but they love the authenticity of, a culture's cuisine, and so they're here. And so this fits really well because You've got this authentic cuisine. You've got these incredible wines, authentic wines made by, producers whose stories are really exciting to share. And so I'm there to really combine the two together. Right? So we're learning about producers from a wine region, region, doing awesome things, and they're making these wines that I think everyone should have in their hands. And we are pairing it with a cuisine from the Louisville South that has its own story that is worth sharing and everyone should have on their plates. Right? So I become the facilitator really a storyteller of, these kind of, intersections. I'm so proud of you, and I'm so happy for everything that you're doing. I hope you feel immensely proud of yourself because you've really become so focused just in the two and a half years, you know, since the last time we talked, and you've got a real vision for how you're going to accomplish all the things that you set out for. So pairing pairing wines with different cultures food is something that I do all the time. I I love to pair Italian wines with other cultures food. So we're really on the same page with that. And and really, as you said, you know, sort of being an ambassador for your producers, but working with these chefs from from the global south from all over the world, different cuisines, you're bringing something new and vibrant and really interesting and exciting into into the world. And I I hate you because you're so young and gorgeous And it's it's going so well. I'm Thank you. I'm I'm really I'm thrilled. I wish I wish we had, you know, a hundred more Alice Chias in the wine world, doing these sorts of exciting things. So I know originally when I first talked to you, you were based in Boston and you were there for several years, and that's where the wine linguists began. And you were doing dinner events and workshops and fostering that appreciation while you were there. So I wanna know the the difference. Like, who was your main audience at the start? You know, how how did people respond to what you wanted to do compared to nowadays? Who's your main audience now and how are how are they responding? What have you changed? How have you grown? And how has your audience changed? Yeah. I would say, when I first started this, I think the audience I saw in mine were We're essentially, people like myself who are not, from this country, who are immigrants, right, immigrants of this country who have, who come from a culture that's different from out of here. And really wanting them to feel invited to the world of wine and wanting them to feel seen, in the world of wine, and and I wanted to do that via their cuisines because food is such an an important part of our cultures, wherever we are in the world that that is one way to identify a people as well. And so I thought one of the ways to help us be seen in the world of wine was seeing our cuisines paired with wine, right? What better way to speak to people? And so I believe that in my mind, that was the audience, and I then also saw the audience being of around my age group. Truly, I I built the wine language for myself. I just, right, to feel seen. And so, yeah, the audience was, were similar age groups as myself, and from different cultures. And usually speaking other languages as well so that, you know, to be understood, understood in in different ways. And I I don't know that that's really changed, but I will say what has surprised me is seeing that the audience, that I had not thought would resonate with what I was doing, has has changed. Right? So that is, usually older, demographic than myself and the audience that I set in mind, and usually are actually Americans. Like, everyday Americans. And what how I've seen that happen is that I've spoken in a couple of, symposiums, or led seminars. So one of them was the first time that I noticed that my audience actually had to be wider, or that that what I was doing was was being received by, other unlike a whole other set of audience was at the International Pinanoa celebration, IPNC. Last year when I led a two day seminar that the demographic you can imagine is not anything that I just said to you about what I thought my audience was. And we had an incredible time, you know, to see people at a older age than me, and I don't mean, like, old. And I'm trying I'm not trying to be ages here, but let's just be kind of, you know, frank about the reality is that they're much older than me. And all weekend long after those seminars to have people come up to me and say, oh my gosh. Like, thank you for doing the seminar. Like, I am so excited to go home and host a tasting with my friends and we're just gonna have fun tasting these wines and not be nervous that we're gonna, describe them the wrong way or, not know the professional ways to talk about wine. Like, thank you for saying we can just have fun with wine. And I just it just I was just like, oh, yes. Thank you. Like, it's almost like they needed permission to just enjoy wine. And here I was being like, you you can just do that. And it really surprised me. Well, and if, you know, you keep referring to your age group, you know, spoiler alert for the listeners, Alice is in her early thirties. So, you know, it's it it is totally a tribute to you that you are attracting an audience that you didn't think was your audience because what you do is is so valuable to people who, as you said, you know, thought they couldn't have fun with wine. They didn't know the right language. So it's not only effect of not speaking English as a mother tongue, but also not speaking wine as a mother tongue. You know, people people get intimidated. So what you're doing has resonated across much bigger groups of people than I think you thought when I first spoke to you. So I'm I'm so happy about this, and we've alluded to the fact that you're in Oregon, you know, in in the spring of this year, you moved out to Willow Valley. So What what brought about this big change? From Boston to Atlantic Valley is a big change. So, you know, what are you doing out there? I know your food and wine journey started with studying ecology of food and sustainable agriculture abroad. How is it being back in the countryside, you know, in a wine region and and out of the city life? It's great. I it's really beautiful here, but I won't say this though because what you just said about this being a big move is something that I get constantly here. It's like, oh my gosh, Boston to the countryside. It's so big. It's so and what people forget sometimes is that I'm I came from a small village in East Africa to America. That's a big change. Right? Everything else after that is not a big change. Right? I I know the culture here. I speak the language here. This is not a big change. It's just a change of scenery. It's just a different location. So to me, it has not been a big change at all, but certainly a very welcome change. I am naturally, I'm not a city person. Naturally. And so to find myself in a wine region again is really just has given me this piece that, I think I was searching for quietly in my head. And so it's been really wonderful to be here. It's it's Lemut Valley is is gorgeous. Every day, and I don't even I'm not even exaggerating this, but every day, I just think to myself, I live here. That's fantastic. I'm I'm so happy. When I saw you were doing that, I thought, wow. I wonder what prompted that. But so what gave you the idea? What what was the catalyst to say goodbye to Boston and move to Oregon? I'm laughing as you're asking that because you would think that I gave this so much thought. I really I really didn't. I made the decision to move to Oregon overnight. I was here in February speaking at the Oregon Wine Symposium that was mid February, and went back happily to Boston not thinking, okay, let's let's think about moving here, right? And I really moved because I felt that the work that I am, the at least the next few, projects that I wanted to do for my work would just make more sense if I was closer to the people I wanted to do those with. Right? So getting to know winemakers more, getting to be around the, the vineyards, wineries and just finding a way to share that with people. Well, it makes sense when you're in a wide region, and I certainly could not do that from Boston. And the idea of flying back and forth, just didn't make sense. And so I just thought, well, I I've been here before. I've I've visited here many times. And last year, of course, I was a seller intern for a winery here in the valley. And so I built enough connections over the last couple of years. And so I knew the environment, right, which is also why it wasn't such a big change, but I had a good idea of the environment here. And just thought, yeah, let's let's go live there. It made sense. And for me, I can when I right? I got very tunnel vision into things. And so if I'm if I'm really seeing that this is the next piece of what I need to do, then I kinda just make that decision. And so this was kind of one of those where I hadn't thought to move here until one night. I was like, what am I doing here? Like, the work I I want to be doing next would best be done in a wine region. And so of all the wine regions in the world, this is the one that I know the most, right, having given my time here. And so, yeah, I I woke up the next morning, and I messaged all of my, wine friends here and asking them for different things, right, whether that's a car dealership they trusted, I could get a car at or a winery that was looking for part time help, you know, landlord phone number. And these are all my this is my wine com community here. These are people I've connected through, through just meeting at Symposium. Some of them have been to my, speaking event. So so, yeah, and everybody here is incredible. It's a really wonderful wine community, and so it just made the move so much easier. But, yeah, I just gotta decided one night. I was like, yeah, we're we're moving to Oregon, and then I did it. So three weeks later I was here. It's the joy and beauty of young people, darn you, Alice. No. No. Nothing no strings tiny down, wake up one morning. I'm moving to Oregon. I love it. I absolutely love it, but it's it's, it's such a great story too because getting away from a non wine area is something and into a wine area, something that I've gone through in my professional life too. And it really does change your perspective. I live for ten years in Rome, not known for, you know, being a fabulous wine area. And moved to verona, you know, and I live in Valpoli Chella now. So I understand how much that means to actually make that jump to to be boots on the ground actually with vineyards all around you. It's very inspiring. And somehow it's more empowering and, I don't know, it it, you know, drives your creativity to new places. So I'm really happy that that's working out. And willamette is amazing. Such great people out there too. So you know, I know, you know, as you said, you've been working at a winery out there for six months now. It's been a while. And you you commented, you know, sort of what we were saying at the beginning that you noticed guests apologized when they didn't like a specific wine that they were tasting with you, and they assumed their taste was the problem. And you've said, you know, people would say to you, oh, my pal, it's not very good. So I guess I don't really understand this wine, and you were upset about this that people were devaluing their own experience and their own palette and their own vocabulary. So, you know, how are you combating this problem? You know, I think anybody in wine has had seen this happen you know, where you're you're with someone, they taste one, and they blame themselves for for not quote unquote getting it. So, you know, what are you doing to help build people up and and bring the fun and the love back into wine tasting? Yeah. I it it yeah. I think you've said it quite right, which is it's it is upsetting because I think, part of the reason why I'm in this this industry and working with Bine is really the the people and experience part of things. And so to see them come to a tasting room, for example, and and just feel like their palate don't matter. And when really just about telling them, like, you the most important thing that you need to know is whether you like a wine or not. Let's start there. Right? And so what I've been doing is, yes, I I work at a a tasting room now. Which has been really incredible. I sometimes think like, oh my gosh, I have so little time to split between working for someone else and then of course, like, continuing to build my company But then I forget that I am actually doing my work in this tasting room, right, when I am in the tasting room floor, the way that I interact with every guest that walks through that door, that is my approach to wine, right, my storytelling and my perspective on on what part of this winery story that I think is really worth and it's, we're sharing with guests. And of course, I just, you know, you have to read guests. What are they going to be interested in? Do do they wanna come and know about all the soil and the farming practices, or is that gonna just glaze over their heads as you're introducing them to the property? And so you do have to do a little bit of adjusting and reading the room and figuring out what guests are really going to be kind of drawn to, which is really fun. But the storytelling aspect of that, and the Lemon Valley is so beautiful that just talking about how the Valley itself is set up, the soil type that's here, then make up the incredible micro climates, to then following that through in when we're actually tasting the wine to walk them through the bodies of the wine and how they reflect these micro climates. That has been my approach to tasting these. I am not interested in telling anyone what notes they're going to get in a wine. Some people are insistent sometimes. They're like, no. But I but tell me, like, what I'm supposed I'm like, you're not supposed to smell anything that I'm going to tell you. Right? You're you're just going to smell what you smell. And I can help you put words to perhaps what you're trying to get at. Right? But I'm not going to say you should be smelling notes of dried, you know, violets and lavender and raspberries I'm just not doing that. And so what ends up happening is that I give them all this information about the soil types and how the region was built and how the winemaking philosophy of this winery and how that translates to the wine in the bottle and in front of them. And the amount of time people are like, oh, wow. I see it. Right? You get them away from thinking they they should be tasting x y z, and therefore have the right words to describe this wine to just simply seeing how all of this works into a wine. And so that is the wine linguist way. And so, yeah, I'm in a tasting room teaching and storytelling. And so very much what I do there is the the wide linguist on the taste room floor. No. It's it's great. And I we this is how we connected at beginning because you and I look at these things the same way. You know, I love people who say to me when they're tasting. This is a weird thing to say, but it smells like my grandma's closet. Right. And and I I'm I always I can work with that. You know, let's talk about what was in your grandma's closet. Was it like handbags? Did she have like little lavender sachets in there? Let's talk about what was in that closet, and it makes it so much more personal. I think you really get that, element of making the wine feel personal to all the people who are interacting with you. And I love that about you. I I consider that something really important you know, in in talking to people about wine, and you do a really great job of that. So, you know, for anybody who can't see video or or things like those, Alice has a beaming smile on her face all the time. Whenever she talks about helping people and teaching people and, you know, sharing not only wine and food, but actually a part of yourself with people. You are, you know, you're everything that epitomizes. As you said, you called all your willamette friends and got a lot of help. You know, there's a huge generosity of spirit in the wine world. People tend to be that way. And you really epitomize that openness and willing to share not just the wine, but also you And it's it's so great to see. I can see why, you know, so many people are so happy to connect with you. So, you know, what what's coming next for you? What's coming next for wine linguist? What's coming next for you personally? You know, you've said that you're committed to amplifying the cuisines of the global south, you know, as we were talking about, and looking at innovative, innovative approaches and to discussing wine in different ways. How are you planning to get, as you said, this huge amount of very, very important work done. I think it's much bigger than you thought it was when you started. You kind of opened the proverbial can of worms. So what's coming up next for you? What's coming up next for wine linguists? What are you up to? So yeah, I mean, it's funny. The work has always been big. So I've I've I'm just really unrealistic about it in the sense that I'm delusional about. This grand vision I have, right? And I and I like that. I like that I'm delusional about it. But I've always known that the work I wanted to accomplish, is massive, and that's really exciting to me. But they're, as I mentioned earlier, they're not separate things. They're really all wrapped in one. So the cuisine feeding into, being connected with producers and then feeding into storytelling about these producers, whether that's their winemaking style, their farming, philosophy, how they view their role as land stewards, where they are at, all of those things really just feed into each other, at least the way that I view it. So I don't see them as separate pieces. And so the work really just continues. The vision has not changed. I think if anything, it's just become a little bit clearer, I think, before it was a little bit broader. And now I've I've honed in on on these these aspects that I want to continue with. So, yes, they're remaining that big, but to me, it's all one and the same. So when I do one part, it feeds into the other part and continues to grow. So, yeah, for us is to continue on this this big mission that we started out I started out with. And so, yeah, the goal for next year is to collaborate with more chefs. I want to do these dinners more regularly and and have interviews with with chefs. Because they are also storytellers, and I am a sucker for stories. And so getting getting to sit down with them and hear the stories of their cuisines and whether that's, you know, in discussing the menu that we, that they've put together, there's always stories there. And so having those interaction more, the goal for twin twenty five is to certainly be able to collaborate with other chefs So, you know, I would love to have chefs reach out to me and, I'd love to work with them. In terms of the storytelling or on the wine side of things, right? The goal is also to have interviews with winemakers. I I really have always wanted to sort of open the door into the world of wine for everyday people, so that no one felt like, oh, there's wide on the shelf or on a, restaurant menu, but we don't know anything past that. And I think that the industry is at a pivotal moment now, in realizing that people want more than just this marketing thing we're doing. They want to know the who, how, when, and where, of wine. And that, that has always been sort of the foundation of how I wanted to to do this as well is like we have to let people in, and we have to be genuine about what we're we're doing and wanting to share with them. And so, yeah, for me to do interviews with, winemakers and farmers here, while I'm here in the valley is a way to let people in on what the Oregon wine scene is like. And I think that, again, that feeds right into the wine linguist, right? So, yeah, just sort of blowing the door wide open, letting people in, and let them have more meaningful engagement with wine, like, getting to know that, you know, wine is made by people, and that wine comes from agriculture. And so there's it just wraps into something much more meaningful and beautiful when we're not considering wine. It's just, this bottled up luxury good, right, that there are actually a whole other world that, exists before it's in a bottle, and it's worth knowing that side of things. For sure. And I I like your holistic approach to it because, you know, wine and and food and cuisines have always gone hand in hand. And that storytelling aspect that's what we do when we sit down at a table with friends and family is we tell our stories and and we talk about the food and the wine. So it's that lovely holistic, you know, element of of how you envision what you're gonna be doing in the future is something I'm really on board with. So before I let you go, let me just ask you quickly, you know, you were talking about the the Oregon wine scene, things like that. How do you see sort of the younger consumers, you know, people who are new to wine coming into the wine scene, you know, are they are they drinking wine? Because we know the numbers of young people drinking wine are going down, you know, what's happening with the low, no alcohol scene, you know, give me your take on new young consumers and and the the whole situation that we're facing, basically. Are you sure you you wanna do this quickly? This is a whole lot of podcast. I know you have you have three minutes to tell me. And I have thoughts, but no. You know, I would say, Willemot Valley, in particular, where I'm at, well, Oregon Weinstein, because there are other parts of, this state that produces wine as well, so that may not limit it to the Willemic Valley. It's still relatively no, here. And so I feel like we're starting to see more people come to the valley, which is gonna be, right, the the first point of contact when they learn about wine being made in Oregon. It's the Willow Valley. So that's, you know, let's get them here. And then we can talk about all the other parts of the state that makes wine. But Lemann Valley is still relatively unknown. And and working in a tasting room, it's been really wonderful to have people from all over the country come, and oftentimes it's their very first time to the valley. And they're just as in love with it as I am. And we we have a lot of fun in that introductory moment of, like, yeah, never been always wanted to come. It's a very friendly, wine community. The demographic is usually not that young. Right? So I think for a number of reason, I I can understand why you need to have discretionary spending to be able to travel period, but to also then travel to to a wine region. Right? And I think that that's that's always going to be a little bit of a barrier for younger generation, but I don't think that it should be something that hinders them, right, save up there so that your next trip somewhere is to a wine region, and it's really quite beautiful here. But, yeah, the demographic is still not as, as what I think the industry needs to reflect. And so we've got some work to do, but I think and it's very welcoming. I think if people, if younger generation or younger people could make their way here, they would see that this is a really awesome Wine region. It's a very welcoming wine region, and it's beautiful. You can go to the beach here. You can go hiking. You can go, obviously, wine tasting. There's great food here as well, and that's getting better. And Portland is not far away. So you kinda have a lot all happening very close by. And so it's just a matter of having people know more about the Wlamid Valley and then encouraging younger people to make it one of their trips. That they do, whether that's for the year or how often they travel. So I think that will change over time. In terms of drinking and younger generations, we're seeing that, that number sort of faltered there. I think that's a we are we are everywhere. It's it's a concern for everyone in the wine business. We're all trying to figure out what to do. Well, I Yeah. I mean, I I feel like this is something that I have noticed a long time ago. This was part of the reason why I started but I started the wine language, right, which was that we needed to reach out to a broader audience. We cannot keep marketing to the same. Audience. Right? So now it's, yeah, we need to market to younger demographic. Okay. Within that younger demographic, what are the cultural differences here? Who are we actually talking to? Because if we're just thinking younger demographic and then we're just thinking like, young Americans, then that's we're not expanding the market. Right? We're still just kind of marketing to the same people that we were of older generation that now just substitute in newer generation, and that's not really a difference. We need to reach out to diverse demographic. And so I always say generationally, as well as culturally. We need to reach out to them generationally and culturally. So it's a lot of work to do. But I also think that we're overthinking it a little bit. I think that the way that we used to sell wine to people, is not working now, and it's really hard for us to figure out how to do it when I really think I tend to simplifying thing because I see it in my head as a simple solution of life. Let's find different ways to engage with younger demographic. And so if the no alcohol or low alcohol is sort of where we're at, we have to question ourselves, like, why are they choosing this? And how can we find ways not to say, oh, well, that's a terrible idea. How dare you? But rather to I think that part of choosing to not drink alcohol is because perhaps they're, you know, they say they're a lot more health conscious generations. And maybe that's true as well. Right? They're consuming less alcohol, but if the market was bigger, then if everybody just consume one bottle, however long, right, it wouldn't be we're relying on fifty people to consume hundreds of hundreds of bottles, but now we're relying on millions of people because oh, I'm making up numbers here, but millions of people consuming one bottle. Do you see what I mean? Like, we have to broaden the market so that we're not relying on the few to consume so much alcohol. Such a good perspective. Such a good perspective. Yeah. I I I completely understand what you're what you're saying. And I I think it's a really valid point of view and and stop overthinking it. I totally agree with that, actually. Yeah. So I just I hope that that's kinda where we go. I see different kind of what I consider reactionary things coming out of the industry at the moment. And, you know, I think if we're reacting to things, it means we're already behind. Right? So you you see these different months, some of these months being, like, the months that people don't drink, whether that's dry January or what I recently learned is, silver, October. I didn't know that that was the thing. And I think those are great. I think that if people need to, find themselves in a position where they want to recalibrate how what their relationship with is with alcohol, I think that's great. Right? What I don't want happening, which is something I've seen, is to make people feel guilty for choosing to recalibrate how they consume alcohol because that's not winning us anything to say that, oh, we're going to lose seventeen percent of sales in the month that people don't drink. Are you kidding me? This is the message that you're sending out that your pocket is gonna is gonna go dry if people don't drink. I think that's such a wrong message, and it will not work either as as with this younger generation because that's an intimidation that they will not speak to them. Right? No. They don't care about the bottom line of the wine producer. That's not their problem. And they shouldn't. Really, right? And if if that's how we're presenting that to them, I think rather to really help them understand how wine can be incorporated in a healthy way in their life, in their lifestyle, lifestyles, I think that's that's where we can start. Right? You don't need to overconsume wine or any other alcohol, but you can enjoy it in moderation in your life. Like, but I don't I don't love drinking. I re I truly don't. So for me, I enjoy I enjoy drinking, right, whether that's, wine or other alcoholic beverages, but I don't love drinking alcohol. I don't consume you know, wine for the alcohol side of things, but rather just to enjoy it, right? I love having wine in my life, and I love having cocktails in my life. And I enjoy them for the pure joy, but not to get drunk on it. And I think you will find that younger these generations that are moving away from drinking, it's really finding a way to engage with with alcohol in a way that is more meaningful and intentional rather than just consumption for the sake of consumption. And so I think that's where we as an industry, yeah, need to kind of rethink how we market wine, how we re market alcohol because we shouldn't be trying to push up quantities on the demographic, but rather find ways to again expand that market and then teach them how to consume it, meaningfully intentionally and responsibly. I think that that's how we we change the culture. Of wine, and we make it a culture. Right? Cause it's still not a culture in this country. Right? It's still a novelty. I completely agree. I think, again, storytelling comes into play here because teaching somebody how to drink wine responsibly sounds you know, very judgmental in and of itself, but teaching someone how to make wine part of their life, as you said, it can be a really beautiful part of your life, how it connects you to, you know, other people and to other food and to, you know, the history and tradition of other countries becomes more of the focus than this is an alcoholic beverage and, you know, that sort of thing, wine has a huge long history, and it's really showing people how to sort of decode that and mind that and make it part of of who they are. So I I completely agree. It's very interesting to hear your point of view because you're, you know, a a different generation from me, and we're talking about people who are even a younger generation than you. So It's a it's a really interesting question that we all have to ask. And your point of view, I think, is a really valid one. So thank you for sharing that. And I know I made you do it in a short period of time. That's okay. That's alright. I appreciate the effort. I appreciate the effort. Like, it has been so great talking to you, Alice. Thank you so so much for getting up early and and, talking to me from Oregon. I'm sitting here in Italy at the end of my day, and you now have to go and have your whole day. So, thank you for being part of my third anniversary on voices. It was a big pleasure for me. Oh my goodness. And, hopefully, I'll come and see you and we'll end it before you leave because I I would love to spend some time out there. Please do. It's really beautiful. It's beautiful here. So come for sure. I'll be here. And, yeah, this has been really wonderful, Cynthia. I appreciate you having young. I cannot believe it's been three years. I know. Crazy. This is really crazy. But, yeah, this was lovely. Well, it was great for me. Thank you so much. It was always a pleasure to talk to you, and I wish you all the best while you're out there. Keep doing what you do so well. And, who knows? Maybe another three years from now, we'll check-in again, but Well, you know, let me know. I feel like three years might happen tomorrow, so another three years anyway. So time is just flying. So that might not be very far away. Well, thank you. You take care. You as well. Thanks with you. Thank you for listening. And remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcasts in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. You can find us at Italian wine podcast dot com, SoundCloud, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your pods.