Ep. 749 Rob Miller | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences, working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello everybody. Thanks for listening. This evening. I've got Rob Miller with me coming from Canada to talk to us. Rob is an Italian wine ambassador. As well as, someone who's been in the wine industry for quite a while in Canada and has recently started a new importing company called the Road wine, which is his pandemic baby. And doing some very interesting things with the portfolio that he is curating. So, Rob, thanks for joining us tonight. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's, it's great to chat with you. Great pleasure. Great pleasure. So I know that your background is Canada Canada, Total Canada. I know you've grown up in Ontario and you have chosen to remain there. So let's hear a little bit please about what you're doing in terms of importing wine and how you actually got into the wine business. I'm I'm curious. So I've, I worked in and around restaurants most of my life dating back back my my first restaurant job has a a bus person back in the back in the late eighties in the bar. I've done a lot of time in the in the nineties while I was in school and then out of school. Working in restaurants, but not at, you know, not not any that had a great wine program. I've had a number of friends that worked in fine dining or finer dining anyways. And when we would meet you know, after work to have some drinks, you know, they bring these great wines, and I'd have my sperm off ice. And, you know, yeah, it just and I I figured, you know, if I'm gonna stay in this industry, if this is something I'm I'm actually serious about it. I'm gonna have to take a wine course and maybe learn a little bit more, or even just to hang out with my friends till I was gonna have to learn a little bit more. So, you know, I took, I took a class at a a local college in Toronto. Was back in nineteen ninety nine, and, you know, as they say, the the rest is history. I was lucky I worked with the L CBO. The product consultant l CBO is a, the monopoly, the retail monopoly arm of, the Ontario government, which handles, importing all beverage alcohol here into Ontario. So, it was a great role. You know, I was, on a number of tasting panels was able, you know, on a on an average month, I would taste between three and five hundred wines, but it was very instrumental. It, had barely young, part of my career in order to taste wines, and be exposed to wine. Well, it's a fantastic thing to have happened at that stage in your life to have that opportunity. What were you doing for for the Monopoly board? So I worked, on the retail floor. I was a a product consultant. So I ran, I worked in a number of different kind of subsets of the actual retail operation, mainly dealing with clients face to face, you know, assisting them with, with some of the new vintages, releases, assisting them with with hearty preparation. At the time, we also used to have classrooms, in a number of the stores. So I would, I would teach teach wine classes, teach spirits, and beer classes. Well, I was also lucky to be on a number of tasting panels. So, the principal one was the VQA. So I'm going to call the Alliance tasting panel, where wines would be submitted for approval for two He denoted the BQA here in Ontario. So that was, you know, to, again, almost twenty years ago, and Ontario wines weren't quite what they are now. It was a great way to learn what faults were, I guess, Thursday. Significant amount of lines that came through the, to be graded. That's a Well, I remember that period really well because I was, still in New York and Boston in late eighties until the early nineties. And Ontario wine in my experience was Icewine and nothing else. I think it's moved on since then. It it definitely has. In fact, I'd be I'd be happy for Ontario wines for for anyone. We definitely have a our own style. It's a it's a a cool climate, even at the best of times, you know, it's we're talking on a on a very cold winter afternoon here, but, we are making some some fantastic wines. Like any any region around the world, it takes time to focus on what the correct varieties are you need to plan to, what makes sense, and find finding the best sites. So, I'm I'm happy for Ontario lines, much happier than it was a couple decades. I can believe it. What what are the primary red and white varietals that are doing well producing quality wine in Ontario now? Well, there's I mean, there's a lot of experimentation, which is, which is great, but, you know, they refer to kind of the core four for whites being riesling and chardonnakes really seem to excel. And for reds, cabernet franc definitely, in fact, you know, I'd, I'll go out and eliminate. Ontario, Cabernet franc is as good if not better than in anywhere else world. We had to we had a real mid palate with our cab front that seems to be lacking in in other regions when they produce it. So I'm, you know, I think it's it's a great that we just, we don't really hang our hat on. You've got that lovely cold evening. So I'm sure you're getting acidity that we're not getting even in France, places that are are hotter now. Climate change is your friend. It is, for sure. You know, the the, you know, the evolution of the industry. We're we're starting to see producers really pulled back from excessive oak usage, which, you know, tends to be, you know, something you you grow through as a, as a new wine region. So, really seeing some, some stylistic differences And wines that are just, you know, to truthfully, they they really just excel, you know, we're also making some great penal new wine. We're we're making some fantastic gamay. There's just, unfortunately, not enough of it in the ground right now, but that's definitely a a a great variety to watch here on up and coming. I'm excited. So you moved on from that position, and you arrived at the Vine in Kavespring. How did that come about? Yeah. I went I went back to work in restaurants for a few years And, you know, like many in the restaurant industry, you know, it's, I was missing out on holidays. I was working a lot of nights. A lot of weekends. And I, you know, was trying to figure out what the next step was in terms of, you know, being involved in the beverage industry, but, you know, maybe, maybe working somewhat of a a more Monday to Friday rule. I'll I'll qualify that remark with, the fact that sales is not a Monday to Friday. Nine to five role, but, you know, it's a there's a little bit more of a work life balance, which is great. So Nothing in the wine sector is nine to five. For sure. Absolutely not. We're all looking for that balance, and it's very difficult to find for sure. It is. And, you know, it it is something that, you know, I've been with the mine for, just over ten years now. It's a fantastic company, really wide. You know, a a good portfolio for for where we're located. You know, we have a a strong focus on Italian wines, a lot of California producers, French producers, handful in other regions around the world. Let's let's back up for a second and and talk about the vine. So for our listeners who don't know, give me a a little brief background snapshot of the vine. Yeah. The vine is a so the vine agency is the, an import company that was started just over twenty years ago, twenty two years ago. I think it was that by Rob Grove, and his partner named Jasper started small. We work currently with about, let's say, about seventy wineries or so from around the world. Again, you know, France, in the California makeup, the majority of those, producers. It's predominantly filled with smaller producers, family owned producers, producers that are, you know, looking to, you know, they have wine to export in a cell, but they're, you know, they're not in a million plus case both parks, so to speak. Yeah. And and, of course, those those kinds of producers are the ones who have, real storytelling to do and and real, image building to do. So that's that's something I know Vine has focused on getting those stories out there that I think are so important to our consumers. I do too. And you know, it's a you and you and I chatted before. You know, I think it's it's great to to have the technical knowledge, but you know, for me, I know, you know, when I'm opening a bottle of wine, it's, it's more than just the refreshing alcoholic beverage. I mean, sometimes that's all of it. But, you know, it's it also it gives you that change, you know, that story that takes you. Maybe it takes you to the vet until maybe it takes you to umbrite. Maybe it takes you, somewhere that you haven't traveled to before. You know, I I always, especially if it's a newer one that I'm not familiar with, at least for the first few, first via SIPs trying to do a little bit of background reading, perhaps a family or the producer or where it's from it, and learn a little bit about it because that to me is what makes wine fun and exciting. And of course, you know, in the past two years with the pandemic, we've had to travel through what we have in our glass. And I've I've spent more time on Zoom. I'd never even heard of Zoom before twenty twenty. I've been teaching, and and I'm sure you have been over Zoom, but that has become my way to travel. What I've got in my glass and what I'm talking to people about, has kind of been my substitute for travel. So I think we're really lucky and wanting to have that opportunity to not be completely cut off. It's not the same as standing in a vineyard in the middle of, you know, Spain or France or somewhere else, but at least we can taste and smell. And as you said, do the background work. Mhmm. And I'd go I think you, I I know at least here in Ontario, we've been very, very lucky, very blessed as in a a number of great online tastings wineries or importers or trade body that have put together, you know, made made the world a little bit smaller in some ways, and allowed us that opportunity to connect with others. As before, you know, it's a, you know, you you had to hop on a plane and and and get overseas. But, we we've been very lucky to have those opportunities available. So tell me about the the collaboration with Cape Spring. Again, our listeners are probably not all that aware of Cape Spring and how they came to be, part of Devon. Yeah. So Cape Spring has been, our Ontario partner since pretty much the beginning, of their, you know, we work with one other very small Ontario producer called twenty twenty seven sellers as well, but Cape Spring has has always been kind of the the main partner in fact Rob and Ann retired, finally officially retired last year. In Cape Spring has purchased the company, which I think was always from, my understanding was always kind of the the end game, but still two distinct organizations while there's some a little bit overlapped in Cape Spring for those that don't know is a one of the pioneers here in Ontario planting some of the first first vinifera here in the province, way back in the early nineteenth seven. And what varietals are they growing? I mean, we When we think of Canada, wine is not one of the first things that springs to mind, although it's although it will become that way, I think, in the next decade or so. So this is we're still kinda cutting edge on getting this out into the consciousness of of wine enthusiasts and wine lovers about the wine sector that's happening and growing in Canada right now. So what are what is Cape Spring doing? What are they growing? Oh, Kate really thought I mean, their their principal focus is on riesling. It's a great variety that over excels here in Ontario. There's tend to be on the drier side of the spectrum. They make nine different rieslings in total. So, that includes a sparkling wine all the way up to a late harvest and and and a nice one, of course. But riesling is, you know, the main grape. It's a it's it's a grape that not only shows, you know, unique and individual tear war, depending on where it's planted here in Ontario. And even, you know, there's very, very different styles and what you see on the beamsville, bench as an example, versus what perhaps you might see in a nag or on the lake That is that's the main, the main grape. We also focus on Tabernet Frank, you know, noir and chardonnay. Those would be kind of the four main ones. We have a little bit of gewurzdraminer on the ground, the love it, or or hated grape. So it's it's definitely not for everyone, but I really like what they're doing with it. Well, this is this is gonna just kill the joy of everybody who's studying W SET around the world of now we have to add, you know, Giverts Reminer and riesling from Ontario to, to the studies. But This is this is, again, as I said, very much, climate change base and very cool things that are happening in a country that isn't known for wine production and to have quality coming from these vineyards is so important. Mhmm. And we're, you know, you're starting to see some some interact, you know, other places in, in Canada that are starting to make some really great wines. So, Nova Scotia is an example. There's some great producers out there working with a lot of hybrids mainly, but doing some, some cool stuff. Even Quebec, which is, colder than us here in Southwestern Ontario is making pretty cool fun stuff now too. So it's definitely an exciting time in Canada. Whether they'll ever be on a a WSTT exam or or a quartermaster, some exam. I don't know. I mean, the the challenge with those, with those exams is getting enough out into the export markets. We're still pretty tiny in comparison. Absolutely. And and you've just handed me the perfect opening to really cut to the chase. What I really wanna talk to you about is your pandemic baby the the road wine, your new import business that you started during the global pandemic, which is incredibly brave, particularly in Canada, where the rules and regulations, are pretty strict and pretty difficult to navigate. So Let's hear about the Road wine. I'm really excited about this. I'm glad to, you're enthusiastic. Yeah. It's, you know, there's there have been a couple of positive takes on the wine industry side here in Ontario since the pandemic that our our government has made some, some changes. The first and foremost, so for those that aren't familiar with Ontario, it's a it's a government monopoly, even wanting agencies that that work with producers around the world. It's actually the LCBO that's that brings those wines in. We just access the agent for distribution. So, you know, as an example, you know, the vine works with a with a winery called prom, in the BennettTel, fantastic producer, but the PO would be cut by the LCBO. And we have a limited amount of warehouse space. Now that's the then one of the biggest challenges for for agencies, particularly new agencies. Is that it before would take quite some time before you could actually get warehouse space. It was long waiting list. The government, made warehouse space available for new agencies last year. Which just started for us in November. So that was, that was kind of an impetus for us. My business partner and I, Megan Ridgeway, had talked about, you know, importing our own wines for a number of years. We had we saw this opportunity and started to do the leg work. It's, it's been a slow uphill climb as you can do. You can expect dealing with, dealing with the government at every turn and angle. But we, you know, we, two kind of mandates that we were looking at, in terms wineries we wanted to bring in first and foremost was producers that are very eco conscious farming, you know, not just, farming organically certified, but, that are really doing the right things for the planet. You know, no organics, you know, it's it's not a black and white situation. There's there's good ways to farm organically. There's there's terrible ways to farm organically. So Let's talk about that for a second, Rob. I mean, it this is this is a real kind of hot button issue in the wine sector right now. It it is. I mean, you know, we all know that it is. And, you know, people bandy about terms like organic, biodynamic, eco conscious. So how are you selecting the wineries for the road? When you talk about your eco conscious focus, what are your parameters? Because this is an important thing and and a very cool way to select a wine list. Yeah. It's, I mean, So the at least here in Ontario for god probably a better part of, the last decade. Natural wines have really started to take hold. You're seeing that being a very prevalent part of a lot of importers, wine list. You know, for us, you know, what we think is important, you know, in terms of organics, you know, if you're still spraying copper on your vine, you're still spraying heavy, you know, that's I don't see how that's that's sustainable. You know, there's definitely different approaches you can take. Now if you're running your tractors for the vineyards double the amount of time, you're still burning fossil fuels. So there's, you know, I think biodynamics at least moves that a little bit more forward And we're very lucky. We work with a number of, producers that are are using regenerative farming as their their main principle. What is regenerative farming? Let's define that for everybody who's listening because you and I know, but, that's not fair to everybody else. No. There's, you know, there's if if you have access to Netflix, there's a great documentary. Anyways hosted by everybody's favorite hippie woody Harrison, and it talks. It's I I I think I watched this three times now. I just, one, I'm a big fan of his, but it's also it's pretty inspiring. You know, climate changes. You know, I know what we're seeing here in Canada, in terms of weather, etcetera. It's happening faster. So regenerative farming is, you know, there's a number of different tenants to it, but it's to to really distill it. It's farming the soil as opposed to farming the the crops. So by having good soil health, you know, in in effect, you're gonna have, you're gonna have better grades to produce your wines with. You're going to be the most beloved person of Professor Atilio Shienza. And it's, you know, it's, I I first came across it, you know, it's, there's a podcast with Mimi Cash Steel a few years back. And that was the first time I'd heard that term used in, in aperture, you know, in in any connection to wine. So I've, I've really started to kinda investigate. And a lot of, you know, it's it seems like it was the on the tip of everyone's tongue last year, in wine, and, you know, you see more and more, talk and chatter about this. I know, Jackson family wines in the in the US is looking to have all of their vineyards regeneratively farmed by twenty thirties. So Absolutely. Katie Jackson is is really pushing that forward. They're, you know, their online video series that they did in the fall was was spectacular. It's a I don't remember the the name of it, but fantastic videos, moderated by, Elaine Truck and Brown. So that was, you know, that was kind of the, you know, one of the main focuses for us, be able to bring in some producers, you know, Alice Anderson's, on the production down at Santa Barbara, Gina, at Lady of the Sunshine, also in and around that area is also working, regenerative farming. Ergalay brothers. Mostly, it's mostly California producers right now. Other other areas around the world that we're we're bringing wines in from, we're also having those conversations. So that was the that was kind of the the first lens. The other was We were really looking to to bring a little bit more diversity, equity, inclusion into our industry. I mean, if you, you know, if you were to attend a a trade tasting in Ontario, you know, it's a it's a lot of people that look like me, old lake house. That's that's still an overwhelming. I mean, that's still an overwhelming majority. So it's, you know, we thought, well, what what can we do to? You know, I'm how how can we start to make a difference? Bycock, owned wineries or producers, was kind of a, you know, that was a big step for us. We're we're also, you know, if you looked at our portfolio, the overwhelming majority are are female owned businesses, female, winemakers. It's absolutely huge. I live in Italy, as you know, very, very male, dominated wine industry. So and I have four daughters. So seeing a man who is putting forward the fact that female owned wineries it as an important part of his portfolio is something that I really get behind. And I know you're doing that, and I know you're also taking a look at marginalized communities, LGBTQ communities in the wine industry as well. Correct. You know, we've got, one for sure, another one that we're just in in talks with. It's, I'd say, it's ninety five percent. For us, it's it's not just about, you know, having these these fantastic figures. I mean, the the wine always has to be great quality too, but it's also about the conversations that we're having with with our restaurant or with our retail clients, and about why these are important why, you know, why we need to to look outside of the, you know, very eurocentric wine industry that's, you know, we we all grew up with and we're exposed to. So what's the percentage on your list at the moment between USA, Canada, and European wines because it's pretty hard to stick to this ethos, which I celebrate and applaud of female owned LGBTQ owned and also, regenerative biodynamic wineries. It's tough to stick to that and keep a wine list that's balanced. How how is your country balanced globally on the list that you're importing at the moment? Yeah. So that's a that's a good question. So going back again, we're we're limited with space with how much we can bring in by the LCBO. We there's a biannual review that's based on the amount of cases that we've sold over a six to twelve month period, which will give us a chance to move up in tiers. But, we're currently working with sixteen producers. There's plans to bring another Hopefully, three or four on board, over the course of twenty twenty two, but depending on how things happen in Ontario, particularly, you know, right now restaurants are closed again due to COVID. So we have a we have the best laid plans, but we'll we'll it's try to predict a a month out right now. I would say to to do, just taking my look at the list quickly, probably sixty percent are female owned, maybe even seventy percent our our female owned businesses. The right now, the overwhelming majority are California producers. And are are you e commerce focused at the moment because of pandemic? I mean, all of us have had to pivot to being much more e smart as I look at it. So how are you how are you aiming the business at the moment? Yeah. So our our first wines just landed here in Ontario for available for sale two weeks ago. I'm just gonna point out that you only started this in the spring. So it's been, what, nine months, eight months? Barely. Yeah. Barely it's, you know, it's, it hasn't been that long, you know, and This is hugely brave to do in Canada in the middle of a global pandemic. So I I am so impressed by the fact that you had the nows to do this and that you are insisting on an ethically stringent way of of looking at your wine list, it's impressive. Thank you. And it's, you know, it just it's something that, you know, we know we're gonna, we know we're gonna make mistakes. We know we're gonna trip up, and and we're okay with that. But you know, for us, it's important that we're having conversations, and at least starting in conversation. You know, people may not be interested in, in a particular wine or winery that we're bringing in. But at least if we can talk to them about our philosophy, and why we're making these decisions. And, frankly, you know, for from everyone, that we've we've chatted with so far, the support is out there. It does seem like the industry is ready to move in this direction, and hopefully, we can we can inch it along the way. Absolutely. I and I think it's our, responsibility to do that as well. You know, we're we're growing we're growing an organic crop where we're making a product that is thousands of years old, and we need to make sure that in terms of today's reality, we're respecting what we do. So I love that you're doing that. I wanna ask you, who is your main client at the moment? Are you restaurant based? Are you private clients? Are you, you know, just mister or missus Smith who find you online? Who are you selling to right now? Well, it'll it'll be predominantly restaurants, but we do have a a private retail businesses. Well. Now one of the the challenges here in Ontario is that for, you know, the the average consumer to purchase from us, they have to buy it, in the case that it was bought in into, into Ontario and so if that's something we're bringing in a twelve pack or a six pack, they have to purchase a whole case. We can't sell individual bottles, which is just it's it's a government rule. It's it's probably not gonna go away at any point. So you're an educator, Rob. How are you educating these people to to come and and seek out your wine? Because I I love the the list that you're curating right now, and I love this philosophy behind it. So I wanna hear where you're going with your education for your clients, both restaurants, and and private clients. Yeah. And, you know, one of the, you know, I think I'd mentioned there's been a couple of positive moves by our government. One of the first things in the, you know, this might sound you know, strange to those in other parts of the of the planet. Perhaps, a little bit more progressive wine industries. But up until recently, a restaurant wasn't able to sell you a bottle of wine to take home. So the government has allowed restaurants, they said, in the start of back of of the spring early summer last year to create their own bottle shops. So it's given us an opportunity to to work with some restaurants, smaller restaurants, have our stock available. The markup isn't as high as as purchasing as, as you would, you're used to eating and dine. So it's given us an opportunity to do some pretty cool things. There's also been a significant amount of wine clubs online wine clubs created in the last you know, twelve to twenty four months. Let's say. So there's there are some unique opportunities for us to be able to get, whether it's a mixed case or the like out to our clients. So it's, you know, it's it takes it's gonna take a lot of, a lot of talking, a lot of explaining the system to to people. One of, you know, here in Ontario and, you know, even on the buying side, we've seen significant growth in people purchasing that didn't wanna go out perhaps they were, I do wanna go out into public or go out to the retail stores so they've been ordering online. So it's it's definitely pushed people in our direction. It's now just a matter of of of giving them what they're want and what they're looking for. Well, I hope this sort of new normal of being able to look online, being able to find something that fits not only your taste preference for wine, but also your philosophy for what kind of wine do you want to buy continues in the future because you're doing something that's that's really special and that has come out of, restrictions and constraints. And I think this is something that's very positive that come out of something so negative. So I applaud you for that. This is amazing. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, the the world's, seems to be moving at a fast rate these days. So I think this, you know, it's a we're we're at the right time, the right space for for our opportunity to, you know, to be able to get out there and and to connect and, again, you know, to to have those conversations. And, you know, we're we're bravo, you know, we're never gonna be a large import agency and and and I don't see that really at least in the me in the immediate future. Never say never. But, you know, I do hope that, you know, we're always gonna have some great connections with our with our suppliers be able to to be honest and truthful with their stories here in Ontario? Well, before I let you go, because you are an Italian wine ambassador as am I, I have to ask you, what is your favorite Italian wine And what Italian wines are you importing? Well, we've got, you know, that's gonna be so hard to pick one. I know. It's a terrible mean question. I apologize. Yes. Yeah. Because, you know, it it really just depends on on the day of the week. You know, I'd I'd mentioned Pra earlier. I'm a I'm a huge fan of their, their suaveys. I think they're they're absolutely fantastic. I love radicchio. I drink the truth I'd go for me. I drink a lot more white and red. Just for the fact that it tends to generally have a little bit lower alcohol so I can have an extra glass or two and still feel sort of productive. You know, I, I absolutely love ridiculously. We work with a a small producer called Gishi, and they're just making dynamite long lived wines. You know, I was, one of my last trips to Italy, I had an opportunity to to drink a a two thousand and four, Bradeepio. That was literally just it really opened my eyes to how long that break. So Well, hopefully, we'll get you back here in in April for VIN Italy and for other things that are happening with VIN Italy International and five star wine and opera wine and all of the things that we do under the mama jumbo shrimp umbrella and our Italian wine podcast. And I will be the first one to turn up with a bottle of Verdicchio, probably from Matalica, just to give you something new. Excellent. I really appreciate you coming on and being so open about your new venture. I think it's really cool that you have got such a focus on regenerative and female owned and deI and LGBTQ for a new venture that you started in the pandemic. I applaud you, and I hope to see you flourish, Rob. Thank you so much for today. Yeah. Thank you so much, and thanks for the invite. Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully April happened. I'm excited to get back on Italian soils sooner than later. So, especially on a on a cold Canadian winter, winter's afternoon here. Some some fun in the sun would be great. Hope to see you in Verona in the sunshine in April. Thanks, Rob. Well, thanks Cynthia. Thank you for listening. And remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcast in the world, and the only one with a daily show, tune in every day and discover all our different shows. You can find us at Italian wine podcast dot com, SoundCloud, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your pods. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love, and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. 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