Ep. 807 Shanika Hillocks | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

This episode is brought to you by the Italy International Academy, the toughest Italian wine program. One thousand candidates have produced two hundred and sixty two Italian wine ambassadors to date. Next courses in Hong Kong Russia, New York, and Verona. Thank you, make the cut. Apply now at viniti international dot com. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences, working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello everybody and welcome to voices. This is Cynthia Chaplin, and today I'm very happy to welcome Shanika Hillcox from New York City where luckily she's not buried under too much snow after all these big storms. She's an influencer marketer and a freelance writer and speaker, a brand strategist and a marketing consultant And she focuses on storytelling of which I am a big fan, and she is a big proponent of diversifying the wine audience. Last year, in twenty twenty one, she was recognized by wine enthusiasts as one of their forty under forty tastemakers. So thank you for making time for us, Shanika. It's a pleasure to have you. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I'm so looking forward to having a chat with you today. Great. Yeah. Me too. I've been looking forward to this myself. I I love that you were, you know, sort of recognized as forty under forty because you're only thirty one. So you have quite a long time before you hit forty. This is a massive achievement, and I know that your background didn't really start with wine. You did English and Spanish at university. How in the world did you get to where you are in wine being an influencer and a marketer? How did you find a path from sort of your university studies to win success. Absolutely. So I, yes, as you mentioned, I studied English in school with a minor in Spanish, and at the time was really gung ho about being an attorney. My act wanted to be an intellectual property attorney, which now that I think back to it, actually, has a little bit of relevance given, kind of influence of marketing and some of the elements there. But, yeah, in my junior year, I started to really think seriously about what that goal was going to look like and started to venture out and tour some law schools. And, you know, intuitively, I just wasn't getting the same spark and excitement as I did, you know, when I went to tour for undergrad, and really just started to think about, okay, if I am going to go ahead and invest in yet another kind of higher education, you know, my university attendance was a private school. So I was already kind of thinking, okay, financially, how much have, have I invested in this? For our European listeners who don't understand the cost of American universities, it's immense. So, yes, it's immense. We can't put enough emphasis on that. So it's always a big undertaking to to start an undergrad and certainly anything beyond that higher degrees. It's very expensive. So I I get that. Yes. Yes. Good good build right there. And so, you know, after kind of really deciding, Hey, I think I'm gonna go ahead and pivot. I started looking at some other options where I could utilize my English degree. And I definitely knew that I didn't wanna be a teacher, you know, just that level of of patience and really, you know, one on one, that wasn't necessarily the the route for me. And so I had a few friends who were a year older than me that had been at a local advertising agency and one of them in particular was spearheading the public relations department of that. And so I said, hey, you know, it would be really awesome to now that I've graduated, get some intern experience, and I had discussed with her a little bit some of my interests, and she had proposed the opportunity. And so, you know, All I knew was that you had to write well. And at that point, social media specifically Twitter was really part of a lot of the clients there, their strategy. And so I said, hey, I think I would love to take this up. It seems like I'm able to help these clients tell their story, share their initiatives online. And I went ahead and leaned into that. And so that was in Florida and really started to just understand, learn, and love the integration of social. And after that experience, started to really look at similar opportunities, but in New York City where I knew I wanted to move after I graduated. And, shortly after, really just started getting laser focused on paid opportunities, and found a, opportunity up here in New York that was really focused on more so, like, tourism and place marketing. It was a wonderful experience to help me really understand how to drill down on specific characteristics of a region, learn how to speak to and target media. And although I had a wonderful experience, I definitely was craving a little bit something. Just more fun. At the end of it, I was reading publications, like the economist and, you know, very dense sections of the Wall Street journal, and I definitely wanted to experience something a little bit more lighthearted. And so at the close of the internship, I started getting very aggressive in my in my search for a full time position, and again, for your pain listeners, I don't know if you're aware of the platform, Craigslist. But back in the day, it was a very awesome forum where you could find everything from, you know, furniture to jobs and that was the platform that I used to find an opportunity. There was a, basically, an opening that said, you know, do you like wine and can you write? And at first, I was a little tickled at kind of just the ask and was a bit of just belief that this was an opportunity that could be available, but I went ahead and, you know, sent the email, submitted my information, and then met my then boss at a wine bar in the upper west side, and she presented the opportunity. And it really just sounded like a wonderful chance for me to exercise my writing skills, and I also forgot to note in the beginning of of this response that I actually served and, kind of hosted at a wine focused restaurant in Florida. So I did have a little bit of introduction to wine via kind of menu pairings and and speaking to guests. And I said, hey, I think this could be a really great chance to to tie the two together. I love the job interview in a wine bar. No other industry do you get that? I mean, this is this is one of the great things about being in the wine sector, serious interviews take place, in wine bars. So that's that's some pretty cool path. You ended up being fairly influential I hate to use that word yet again in the marketing wing of Ernest and Julio Gallo, and you've just left that position and come back to New York, and you've striking out on your own. So What have you what did you learn during all of these jobs that led up to now your own freelance job that you've just launched? Yeah. So prior to E and J, I had done several, I had several experiences in, like, more agency focused, positions. And I think when I kinda harken back on the experiences that have gotten me here thus far, really, one of the biggest things obviously is working with teams and working in cross collaboration with folks, you know, having those other points of view and being able to create something based on a client's need was definitely something that I truly, truly enjoyed, about working on larger teams within agencies and also as E and J. You know, finally after pivoting from agency to in house, one of the big things that I really hung on to is how, you know, larger companies really in inject their values into their work on a day to day basis. And while some of my values definitely resonated with E and J, I was I was called to start to really evaluate what my personal values were. I think, you know, especially here in the United States over the last two years, there's been a lot of cultural, civil, societal, racial, you know, occurrences, discussions, dialogues, challenges, and with that, I I just had to press pause and especially being a New Yorker when you're kind of sitting with yourself and your apartment can't go out and takes advantage of some of the offerings here to, you know, for lack of a better term, almost distract you, I think, from what can be a true focus. It was time for me to just look and say, hey, how do I now that I'm entering my thirties, like, what what kind of impact do I wanna leave, not only on just an industry, but also the legacy that I desire to live as as a person as a human. And so it was important to me to kind of assess. And when I did take a moment to do that, I realized, hey, you know, there's some things in which I would like to lean into as a professional, and I think the only way that I'm gonna be able to get that done is on my own. So, yeah, just took the leap there and and that is a big takeaway that I think I have now leaned into being a full time consultant. Well, you as as you mentioned, you know, it's been a very volatile time in the US and and around the world, but literally initiated by events in the US, in the past couple of years, what was it like for you being a a very young woman of color in in those rooms with, you know, that traditionally tend to be filled with, you know, older men, and and for lack of better words, sort of older white men. Did you feel heard? Were you getting were you getting your message across or was striking out on your own something that was gonna allow you to be more authentic and not have to sort of adapt, you know, what you were doing to the voices in the room around you. Sure. Yeah. I think I have been in the industry and kind of observed now almost, you know, approaching ten years, the transitions and changes. I think, you know, I could probably say yes to your question, you know, five, six seven years ago. When, you know, at trade events, I would be confused for, like, the coke check or, grantees to where I might have been, like, the only kind of black woman in the room, but I really have to say I'm fortunate to kind of be part of this evolution, not just kind of following, you know, twenty twenty and everything that went down in that year, but just really observed and been happy to participate. And so, you know, in my last role, I absolutely felt seen and heard my team was diverse, and it was really such a pleasure to kind of just be in a space and place where there were several different folks across the spectrum of of gender identity, of race, of, you know, even age, and I was really appreciative to actually kinda exist, work, and create with folks that are, you know, like, it's it should be this way because this is what our world looks like. But, yeah, I mean, in the time in years prior, I have had to just really exercise and understand what it means to be maybe the only or one of the few. And it's never really pivoted me so much so to where I was like, oh my gosh, I am gonna leave this industry. Actually, it was quite a motivation to say, hey, for the next person that might have an interest in wine and and wanna be able to lean into this, not just you know, and from a front of the house or back of the house experience, but actually in the marketing realm or the PR realm, it was really important for me to kind of set set the tone there to potentially be a mentor or, someone that someone after me could could admire if that makes sense. Yeah. I think this is this is such a key thing to look at in terms of taking a positive out of, you know, some pretty difficult things that have gone on definitely in the States and and around the world in the past couple of years. There is now so much more room for for more more people, more useful ideas. You know, you have a skill set that is, you know, really relevant right now in terms of influencing and use of social media. I think it's great that you didn't feel, you know, as, you know, you said you felt seen and heard by your most recent team at E and J. I think that's wonderful. And I really do think the states is doing that well and hopefully will continue to sort of be a a light for the rest of the world to follow on. And I hope they'll continue improving. You've said yourself that your goal now is to give voice to the narrative of people of color and queer communities and the hospitality industry and and beyond that even. It's a really relevant goal. It's a huge goal. How how are you approaching this with action? You know, what are your strategies now that you're your own boss? You know, I'm really happy to say, again, I've only been a consultant now first. It's January tenth officially officially, but that's okay. However, I think because it's been the early onset of of this role, you know, seventy five percent of my current client roster or the projects that I'm working on are with Black owned or, you know, predominantly Black and Brown teams. So, you know, my strategy is really to take that and can continue as my the roster grows. It is very important to me that a team is reflective of some of the goals in which they, like, would like to accomplish or achieve. I think a lot of folks are also understanding the the power of the black dollar and the black culture to be to be totally frank. And so some people are just catching up, and and I'm aiming in this vein to just assess and align with things that resonate with me first. And then say, yes, I'm willing to partner. Or if you do desire to partner, perhaps you need to get your house in order before you kind of approach someone like me who is passionate and intentional about serving serving my community in this way. And so that I think is the biggest strategy. It's kind of happens at the initial step first and foremost before saying, hey, I'm I'm agreeing to this and and then kinda have to almost resolve something that might not have existed before. In addition, I'm also it's been really lovely in full transparency to just work with people who I'm really excited about. I think, obviously, when you're kind of an agency roles or in larger businesses, you really just have to serve the the clients or brands that are within, you know, a top tier priority. And it's been really awesome to have a little bit of choice right now in exercising how I'd like to partner with who I would like to work with and what brands I'd like to represent. And not all of them are in wine and spirits, which I think is also something that's important to me. I I'm really excited about culture. I am a conscious consumer and really admire some products that fall out of the industry. And it's been exciting to stretch my muscle there and apply still my expertise and and, you know, point of view to to other brands that are outside of the industry that I do And they they need the the same sort of, voice and encouragement and, you know, prodding in many aspects as as the wine sector does. So I'm glad that you're expanding that way. It it's interesting for me because when wine enthusiasts recognized you, they they sort of described you as inadvertently disrupting the digital space. And I I referred to your skill set, you know, with your media skills. What does that mean to you inadvertently disrupting the digital space? How are you using your, you know, superpowers in this area to sort of achieve your own goals and benefit your clients and make spaces for for more voices to be heard. Yeah. The one I when I read the write up from from wine enthusiasts, you know, I, you know, just totally humbled. I think I have been on both sides of the coin. You know, I've partnered with brands as a influencer, and I've also created the strategies for brands to engage influencers. And, you know, when I started activity on Instagram. My goal was never to be an influencer. Actually, almost cringe at the word a little bit. I'm just like, hey, I'm it's a difficult word. It really is. I'm a person who who utilizes Instagram as a tool, and I hope that The personality that I love to showcase with my in real life connections is hopefully what you're seeing online and what I am speaking to and showcasing. So for me, think that's where the inadvertently part comes from. It's just like who you meet, the Shanica that you meet in person as much as humanly possible aligns with the Shanica that is, you know, at Shanica Hillox on Instagram. And then in terms of the word disruptor, that's I always like to really pause when when I read some a word like that in in, like, a headline or a piece because for me, I just think that it's a reflection of my humanity. Right? Like, I don't think I'm disrupting by any means. I'm just hoping to really get back to kindness to compassion, to, you know, manners. Like, it's so interesting. Some people, I think, in this very, instant gratification world, they're like, hey, you know, where is this link at? Or what can I do with this? It's like, wait, wait, wait. Like, can we say hello? Or how are you? Like, let's get back to just, you know, the the foundational elements and and tenets that I I was raised on in terms of interacting and and being kind and polite and aiming to still inject those characteristics in a very digital fast at your fingertips world. So I think that would be my response to to that question there. And and again, just aiming to always hang my hat on being humble. Well, it's a nice point you make about your humanity too. And I one of the things I really missed during lockdown was eye contact and handshakes. It's, you know, again, same same as you being raised in a you know, a family that considered manners very important. I think sometimes in, you know, in the metaphors in in the digital world, we lose that opportunity to make a real in human contact. So it's nice to hear you put an emphasis on your humanity and your humility. I think people forget the value of these things these days. And, you know, especially in a high powered industry and a fast moving world, it's very nice to reflect just for a minute on how valuable those two things are even though they're not monetary. They do sort of grease the wheels of all of our interactions. So I I like the fact that you pointed out those two things. I think that's really important. And it's it plays right into my hand because you've been described as a, quote, unquote, good influencer. And there's that word again, and I know hate it or love it. It's out there. Yeah. What does it mean to you? Like, the responsibility for being a good influence or, you know, as compared to, I don't wanna say bad, but potentially a less positive one. You've written about the difference of being on social media versus using social media. And tell tell us a little bit about your philosophy about this Sure. So good and bad, up and down, happy side. Like, I I think I have definitely expanded my utility of binders because I think it's such a limiting thing to do for humans, like, we're complex and multidimensional. And for me, maybe I would substitute that word for authentic. I desire to be as authentic as possible so an authentic influencer. And if I if we're kind of going into that, Bane, I would say, for me, that means, you know, on the days where I'm off, I will say like, hey, this is what I'm feeling today, or if there's another headline that of something that affects my community, I'm I'm speaking to it on my stories, or I'm asking folks like, Okay. It's been a tough couple weeks or here we are. And yet another Monday in the pandemic, like, how are you feeling? And I will inject those things into clips of me cooking my dinner at home because it's winter here in New York, and I've been enjoying the ingredients of the season, but also I will post memes because I need a laugh. And so I think for me, I I really just utilize and and am conscious of my platform use and what I'm speaking to because people do now purchase make decisions become advocates based on what someone will say on the internet. And so, you know, if I am speaking to something, is this misinformation? Is this my opinion, am I emotional today? Like, I take stock, although I am quite active on a very regular basis of, like, okay. What am what is the reason for me sharing this and and and why? So I think that's maybe how I the lens that I utilize when I'm when I'm talking about the authentic use of social media and and to answer your second question about being on versus using, I think Instagram for me social media for me is not the the final destination. Right? I think one of the largest lessons that New York has taught me is, you know, the power of networking, and I think we all understand what that means in in a pre pandemic world. Right? I love that you mentioned handshakes and eye contact, saying your name, drumming up a conversation of interest. And so for me, my goal is to always say, okay, wonderful. Though this person may have reached out to me via comments or DM, like, I love take it off the platform, you know, even if that means another digital space, IE email, you know, and when we were out and about linking and connecting with folks, I would always propose. Alright. Wonderful. Great to connect with you. Here's my number, like, let's get a coffee. Can we meet for lunch at at this event that, you know, we are likely to both be in attendance. So that's kind of what I mean when I say use, you know, I always have to chuckle sometimes when Instagram might have one of its blackouts or like the algorithm changes and you have to think like, hey, if Instagram were to shut down, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, we're to shut down tomorrow, like, what would you be doing with this quote unquote community that you build? Your quote unquote followers, the audience. And so I always like to kind of pressure test myself in in that way and just say, hey, like, if and when, these platforms maybe don't have as much relevance how how will we still maintain connection because this is a way in which we are connecting right now. Yeah. And that the ability to use, you know, what is a a enormous public social platform to carve out more intimate space, I think, is, you know, definitely a skill and and something that you have to practice, as you said, you know, to build up your ability to move away from that public forum into a more private space where you can have you know, much more of a human connection. And I one of the things that I'm driven crazy by is the the terminology, you know, being on social media or using social media is very similar to drug terminology. You know, being on drugs or using drugs. And I think sometimes social media can can be a drug for people who aren't aware of the impact that they are having on other people's lives or the impact that the platform is having on theirs. So I I would like to change the verbs we use around social media, but it's it's interesting to to talk about having social media, not as something that is sort of consuming you or that you are consuming, but that is a tool for your more private connected interactions with people. I think that's really interesting to talk about. No. That's a wonderful point. And definitely, again, it's for me and my life on social. It's just just a snippet, and there's a whole existence outside of it. So Yeah. That's a great build. Well, you know, you're you're still you're playing right into my hands because you you've said that you try to challenge your clients to observe their performative optics and understand how they're participating. So you know, in this whole discussion of of social media and skills, that's that's a huge challenge to to confront an organization or or a singular client and ask them to observe their optics and how they're participating certainly in the wine sector, many businesses have been, you know, running very traditional lines for decades. How do you give your clients to the table and into this conversation about their roles and their goals and, you know, their optics out there in the world at the moment. Sure. I think one of the biggest things that I find happens on social, it's, you know, I think two big components right now are, like, going viral and then, like, being part of a grander converse station, you know, if something, you know, is hashtag trending. Immediately, people want to be spearheading or be the talking heads of that conversation, then there's this angst and and almost like, okay, quick fast and and let's respond now. And I've always been opposed to that in the immediacy. I think, yes, some things are absolutely necessary, especially if you're a driving force in that conversation. However, I have really been embraced Sangerville the last couple of years personally, and now within my practice with with clients and and partners, just press pause. And, like, let's look at truly what we have said before if we have said anything. And share or assess the why we are choosing to now engage in this conversation. If is it guilt, is it is it the desire or the need to feel relevant? And, you know, putting out a tweet or putting up a post without really looking internally can be just as detrimental or jeopardizing as not saying anything at all. So I think those are the types of questions that I absolutely do pose and do you have a discussion with folks who I am working with about? That's so interesting. Do do you sit down with them and sort of go through their their social media with them and and point out, you know, where they've done something positive and where they might have potentially made a mistake. That's that's very interesting to look at somebody's history of comments and and things. That's that's fascinating. Sure. And, you know, I think Sophia had also goes outside of just social. Right? Like, I think one grant example is in twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, I couldn't scroll through LinkedIn without seeing, like, an opening for a diversity equity and inclusion officer or, you know, another similar DTI role And, you know, suddenly this role becomes available. You want an individual to be responsible for setting strategies on how to really look at inclusivity, etcetera. But then you look at, like, the C suite or, you know, really true decision makers and stakeholders, and there isn't anyone represented. So it's not only just looking at social history and talking about crisis communication. I think it's also about like, okay. How are you truly making these spaces equitable? Right? Like, you could hire a black woman to be in this role. But if she's still experiencing micro aggressions, then how safe or effective or empowering is is the space in which you know, she's working. So Absolutely. It's really going from lip service to, you know, actual accountable steps. Sure. And it's similar to, you know, charitable giving. It's like, well, Are you looking at the charities that actually are making sure that these funds hit the folks and and really make sure that the money is going into these individuals hands? I think there was a study recently and I don't know the figures, but after all of these companies made large investments to organizations coming to realize that actually they have yet to really come to fruition in terms of resources for folks So things like that where it's like, of course, it's easy to make a charitable donation. Of course, it's easy to put up a campaign on social media, but those are the nitty gritty and really in-depth assessments that I like to take stock of. And it's Sometimes it can just be I like to kick off with clients too and just saying, okay, d and I, like, if that is something that we are aiming to address, if you say, hey, I would like to target a multicultural community audience then that is part of my kickoff questionnaire. And it's like, well, what is your why? Truly, not just because you have the budget. And, you really have to take take stock of that because however well intended, sometimes those things can create more harm than good. So really like to just be a mirror in that way because I'm also a person. Yes. I have the expertise, but I also have the lived experience, and I've seen what that can look like as as not just a professional, but, you know, as a person as well. Absolutely. It's it it's I I hate to say minefield, but there there are so many missteps that can be taken in the name of trying to do the right thing at the moment. And I think what you're doing in your career is it's so valuable to so many companies who want to do the right thing, not just be perceived that way, but who actually want to be more inclusive and and give more equity to, to more diverse communities, but they aren't sure how to do it. So you know, it's the job that you're carving out for yourself and the career that's ahead of you is going to be incredibly important given so how many circumstances in the world right now. So I I think you're gonna inspire a lot of people, and I know our listeners will be very interested to watch what you do. So I'm wondering where do you see yourself heading this year? What's what's on the deck for this year? And and where do you see your business growing in the next couple of years? Sure. This is so exciting to think about. I really took my time at the tail end of last year. And even early this month, to just really dream big, I think, gosh, when you're in the motions as a young adult, someone who lives in the city and and definitely an ambitious human, you you can easily forget to just stop and dream, and I think that's a different thing than, like, setting goals and resolutions. And so some of those big dreams that I have, I would love to do more on camera opportunities. Obviously, video is hyper relevant, but it's a space that I enjoy and I think such a great vertical for storytelling. So, you know, whether that's in a hosting or talent capacity. I'm looking forward to getting to understand that side of the business a little bit more. Also, just spending a little bit more intentional time with family. I am an aunt, and I'm just been so, so, so enamored with, my nephew and being able to really take advantage of this work from anywhere life that we're in right now, that's something of of importance to me. Also travel. I I am looking forward to going back and visiting wineries and hopefully, you know, as soon as it's safe to get over to California, I used to go nearly annually, and I I've missed venturing out over there, but also other regions too, that Finger Lakes is one of my favorites, and I haven't been there in sub time. You know, I think, obviously, Italy is a big, big, big, region on the top of my list. Both for wine and food, and I have yet to actually visit, which seems, nearly blasphemous speaking on the Italian wine podcast. But, Well, we've gotta get you here. We have it'll it'll it'll be as actually smaller than California. So once you're here, you can do quite a lot of traveling. It's just getting you from New York to here. Exactly. Exactly. So that and and also just, you know, I it's so easy to say work life balance, work life balance. I think a lot of folks are embracing that term, but I desire a little bit of a life work balance because I've I've recognized and, you know, being in this position right now is a true testament. It's like every time I lean into exactly who I am, the work, the opportunities, the money, it will all come. So, yeah, I think those are my big three or four. I I lost count in what I was kind of sounding off, but That's that's those are some pretty pretty sizeable goals for coming up. I think they're goals that are achievable, so probably a great list, but that's that's a lot on your plate. So good luck with all of those things. I know just from having spoken to you for a short while and and followed your career that you will achieve them all. I have absolutely no doubt. But before I let you go and get on with all of that hard work ahead of you, I have got to ask my famous final question. What is your favorite Italian wine, even though you have not a foot here. As you said, blasphemy, we have to rectify that. But what's your favorite Italian wine? When would you crack open a bottle of Italian wine? So I love love love bubbles in all its forms, and I really love French Corta, actually. Oh, you're singing my song. Oh, wonderful. Yes. So, I mean, the beauty about bubbles is that it truly can be enjoyed from start to finish of a meal. And as of late, and as I had mentioned previously, I have been really just kind of cooking up a storm and enjoying the creative inspiration that comes from being in the kitchen and using my hands in that way. So, you know, I would say I would be enjoying a glass of that while I'm cooking, but also once I I table food and and have like, a friend or two over for for lunch or dinner. So bubbles, regardless of the season, is something that I I definitely enjoy and and French Acorda is is my choice for the Italian selection. Well, when you get here, we'll have to go to French Accord together. It's not that far from Verona, and I I too, I mean, bubbles all year and bubbles all day, kind of a person. They they certainly do go with absolutely every aspect of a meal. So Fantastic choice in my opinion. And I wanna thank you so much, Shanika, for coming on today. I really enjoyed chatting with you and hearing about all the exciting things that you are doing and that I know you will continue doing in the future. Very important work. And I know you will be a beacon to a lot of people listening and and hopefully also to your clients. Thank you so much for your time, Cynthia. This was a wonderful discussion. Great pleasure. We'll see you soon. Take care. Thank you for listening. And remember to tune in next Wednesday, I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcasts in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. You can find us at Italian wine podcast dot com, SoundCloud, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your pods. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been due a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions quests and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian wine podcast dot com.