Ep. 816 MJ Towler | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

This episode is brought to you by the Italy International Academy, the toughest Italian wine program. One thousand candidates have produced two hundred and sixty two Italian wine ambassadors to date. Next courses in Hong Kong Russia, New York, and Verona. Think you make the cut. Apply now at viniti international dot com. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences, working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Welcome to voices. This is Cynthia Chaplin, and today I have the great pleasure of welcoming m j toddler. He's also known as the black wine guy. MJ's based on the Jersey Shore, and he has gone from being a self described, totally obsessed wine newbie to the world's first ever African American fine and rare wine auctioner in less than three years. So he's now hosting a successful and inspiring podcast that makes me very jealous called the Black Wine guy experience. So thanks for coming on today, MJ. Nice to hear you. Well, thank you, Cynthia. What an what an honor to be on the Italian wine podcast. Oh, great. Great. I'm glad you look at it that way. I I look at it as an honor being on it myself, frankly. I wanna talk to you about you how you got into the wine world because it definitely was not through any kind of a traditional path. You know, in fact, you've got a law degree from Rutgers, and you were a lifestyle and fitness coach for fifteen years. So, fill me in. How on earth did you get into wine? Like, where? When? You know, what made the light bulb come on with that? Well, you know, actually, I think I got in the way most people do. You kinda fall into it, to be honest with you. So I I did graduate from law school. And when I was in law school, I had a friend from, undergraduate who lived in New York City. And so I would go hang out in New York City a lot on the weekends, and he introduced me to, a man named John Capon. And, John Capon is the chairman of AcorWines. His family owned at the time, it was called Accer Merrill incondon. And, me and John just kinda hit it off, and we used to hang out all the time. John at that time was a, hip hop producer. He wasn't even into wine himself. So we would just hang out, listen to music, drink, do what young men did in the nineties in New York City. Young women were doing that too. Believe me. I I know. You know, which which was was was was getting high and drinking. Right? Like, now it's legal here in the States, but, like, we're hanging out. We're partying. We're having a great time. And he was a really cool guy. I got along with him. So, you know, I I graduated law school, and I it's one of those things where when I went to law school, I knew I might not be a lawyer. However, I graduated from college in nineteen ninety two after being on a six year program, and everybody I knew was, like, going to graduate school. And so law school is kinda like what you do when you don't know what you wanna do, because it's it's only three years. And, law touches everything in this world at some point in some way, you know, as we saw, like, the wine tariffs in the States. Like, law touches everything. So I figured it'd it'd be a it'd be a it'd be a pretty flexible graduate degree. I didn't know what I wanna do. So that's how I ended law school, but connected with John, and then I got out. And I was like, once I was in there, I was like, oh, I don't wanna be a lawyer. There's no way. I can't do this for, like, any amount of time in my life. And so, I had, graduated. I actually went to work. As a field marketing rep for Reebok after I got a law school because, a passion of mine back then. I'd I'd run track in high school and for college for a few years. And I love sneakers. So, like, I, like, I think my issue is, like, I get, I get I go on tangents with things. Like, I used to have, like, a ton of used to collect sneakers. I don't even know if I collect them. I used to get them for free, but, yeah, I used to have a ton of sneakers. Oh, even better. Getting them for free. That helps the collection. You know, we're in a different pair every day. But, There was a point where even that, I I was I was living in Philadelphia, and I really wanted to be just in New York City. And so John said, you know, hey, I'm starting to take a a bigger role at the shop And, why don't you come work with me and you'll drink the finest wines in the world on a nightly basis? And offered that you couldn't refuse, definitely. Yeah. And I didn't know anything about wine, but I knew I knew it was New York's. I I I had an idea that if I was drinking the best wines in the world on a nightly basis in New York City. That was gonna be pretty fun. Like, that was gonna be pretty, pretty outrageous. I was like, this isn't gonna suck. And so, you know, I went to work there, and It was it was, baptism by fire. You know, I had worked retail before for years, and and specialty retail. It had been running shoes, but There's something about when you work in specialty retail, you know, not big box where you have to have a certain level of knowledge, and people see you as their consultant. That's a really interesting take on on retail. I I haven't looked at it that way, but you're so right. As you know, a specialty product really does need all of that expertise. Yeah. I mean, and I think a lot of people thank you for saying it. I think a lot of people overlook that. I mean, I absolutely, you know, I love retail just because you are dealing with the the end consumer. You get so much insight about about the psychology of the consumer, about about, you know, buying preferences, trends, you know, people when it was when it was sneakers, it was like, what was the hottest sneaker? Everybody wanted it. And particularly running shoes. Everybody wanted the Nike Air Max, and it Nike Air Max wasn't for everybody if you're gonna run-in it. You know? It just you have we all have different needs. Just like we all have a different palette. So, you know, if people would come and ask it for something and you want to gently guide them towards something that's more appropriate for their needs. So coming from that background, and then also having coming out of law school, law school, why I realized I don't wanna be a lawyer, it's not like TV. It's not like LA Lawa. You know? I was like, Hey. I I, you know, I'm a decent looking black guy. Blair Underwood, I could do that. I can go objection. You're overruled, all the stuff. In a sharp suit, Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. We wear a sharp suit exactly. Drive a nice car, have women falling all over the ay. Okay. I'm in. And then there's like, nah. Nah. It's not like that, man. Yeah. Sitting around with boring textbooks. No good. Exactly. Which which is one of my highest grades in law school unit. I have a I have an interesting mind. Like, I enjoy tax law. You you say you're a nerd, basically. No. No. No. I'm a geek. There we go. Okay. We'll take that one. Yeah. Because and because I had to make these things because, like, wine, wine, wine, a geek. A geek you could be a geek and still be cool. A nerd, you know, in my mind, you know, revenge of the nerds, nerds are nerds. And I I love nerds. I have nerds for friends, but, like, what can I geek out on? Right? So when I got into wine, I started geeking out online. Like, you can geek out about comics and people geek out about whatever, you know, people geek out on watches. You know? I mean, like, anything you collect you're gonna end up geeking out on because That's true. That's a good point. Right? Because you're you're you're so into it. You're looking for what's unique and what's off the beaten path. And then also there is a little bit of flexing in the geekness. And it's not I came in the business in the in the late. So I got started aacker ninety seven. Yeah. Ninety seven. So that was, like, that was, like, full on height of, you know, the Parker era and people bringing baller bottles and and what score. And, you know, there was all kinds of tasting groups. Like, you you you you had to bring like a Parker ninety six or, you know, a Parker ninety five and up, you know, and what I got out of that because I didn't have a lot of money was research. Right? So I would show up at a tasting and, you know, and bring a, like, a bottle of nineteen ninety five, Bull Castell, shout enough to pop Blanc, which got a ninety six from Parker, and you could get for forty five bucks. And and and and everybody's bringing, like, their harlan and their screaming eagles and your synchonons, and then you brought walking with this white wine, like, a fraction of the cost, and it ends up being like the wine of the night, like, that's that's that to me, that's that was the fun part of that. Right? Like, I I out geeked those guys. Right? Those are the best moments. Right. So so it's like it's finding that bottle that that's off the radar that people aren't thinking about. Right? Like, it's like so I I kinda got that in law school because in law school, you learn how you have to do what's called distinguished cases, and you had to do things called shepherdized cases, and you actually had to look up in books back then too. These things. And so you learn how to make distinctions, which also is so important in wine. Like, the splitting of hairs of, like, no. That's that's not, licorice. That's actually anise. You know, it's actually it's richer than licorice. It's anise. You know? These tiny distinctions that we can do inside of our business when we're when we're geeking out, with when they're in the deep dive mode with with the rest of the gigs. Exactly. Calling out, like, you know, verbena instead of just lemon oil. Right? Like, stuff like that. Right? I need to come to your wine parties, definitely. They're fun. A good time is had by all. So that was, thrown into the fire, work on the the floor of the store for eight to ten hours a day, and then go upstairs and pour for the wine tasting. See, this was a I just so much in life is luck. I will tell people as luck. You you kinda make your own luck, but there is luck involved. Right? You know, how I met John k Palms completely. It shouldn't have happened. To be honest with you. But things happened in my life, and I ended up meeting him. And and his family owns the store. And at the time, they still do. They had a a separate component called the wine workshop. So above the store, they own the building, second floor at night, they would, do these wine tastings, and they would have all kinds of wine tastings. They would have, you know, tour of Italy, or they might have a vertical Tianello or the Supertuscans, or they might have California colt cabs, or they might have an evening of DRC. Or, you know, they might have, Chateau latour back to nineteen fifty knots. Crazy stuff, you know, Petress back to, like, whatever. Taylor flag eight back to nineteen twenty eight. Like, like, like, hardcore serious tastings. And I got to pour for those tastings, and because I got to pour for those tastings, I got to taste those wines. Yeah. You're right. This was definitely a baptism by fire in the best possible way. And so, you know, it was one of these things where that was ninety seven. So you know, we were coming around. I only worked there for a year. It's a tough place to work. Family business are always tough to work at. Now it's become actually a real, you know, they have a board of directors. But, you know, when you work in a family business, it's fun. You're a referee sometimes for family stuff. But having worked there, people knew, like, I I could get people knew I knew about wine. If you worked there, you worked you worked at Acura, oh, this guy must know wine, you know, and they had people see me on the floor. And I was very quickly, you know, at the end of ninety days, I remember Michael Capon, who was the the president at the time John's father said, you you know more about wine than ninety eight percent of people in the world now, you know? That's you've got props in the industry when you get that from someone, you know, who's so senior. Yeah. And also, but but he knew because, like, you know, when the wine spectator came out with its top wines of the millennium back in ninety nine, I had, like, seven or eight out of ten of the wines. It was ridiculous to, you know, and we're talking, like, you know, crazy stuff, you know, all the eighty twos, all the eighty sixes, DRC. That's amazing. What a what a great experience. Like, the incredible entry into the wine world. You didn't fall into it. You jumped in with both feet. It was great. And I was like, oh my god. And then why I said I kinda like everybody else, you know, the law degree is whatever, but so many people that I meet meet and whine, particularly being here on in the East Coast of New York, like, people go to Columbia, people go to Ivy League schools and end up in wine, you know, people go to, like, UVA and end up as a Psalm, you know, because it is so intellectually stimulating. Yep. Absolutely. Well, I went to one of those schools, and I definitely did not stay with what I was doing for my degree. So, yeah, I absolutely get it. And it it is endlessly as you said, you know, the deep dive stuff, the minutiae does become really addictive. So having having worked at somewhere like Acred, that really gives you, you know, a great jumping off spot. So so where did you go next? I mean, what could have What could have been better than that? What came next after that? I I was probably feeling myself too much, so I bounced around from a few jobs. And then, like, some seasonal work, you know, if someone needed help for, you know, the the holiday season. But then I landed as a assistant wine director at a place called the sparrow Wine company over in Hoboken, which is on the other side of the Hudson. And, again, so I had been in the business. So that was early ninety nine. So I had been in the business less than two years, and I was assistant wine director. And at the time, they were opening their second location, which was a huge, huge, flagship store on the other side of town, if people know Hoboken, because it was really getting built up back then. It was still when it hadn't become what, you know, Hoboken and Jersey City have become basically like Manhattan. Extensions in Manhattan. And this was a huge store. I mean, it it's like the size of, like, maybe, like, a total wine would be. Like, it's like a it's like a big, but it was, but it was fine wines. Right? It had that big box size. And so the the owner was working on another project. He was also opening a restaurant And so he was like, this has been my vision for five years. I'm turning it over to you. You buy all the wine. So I bought all the wines for, like, this, like, I don't know. Maybe it was a five huge store. Huge store. You know, so, I did that. And then I say, he made the mistake of taking me out to California, because I had a I had a friend who I'd work with in New York City, actually had a hacker, and then he was a graduate of UCSB, and he decided to go back to Santa Barbara. I was I was doing, like, direct imports of stuff from Santa Barbara, like, stuff that wasn't with a distributor. I was just having to send me, like, two or three cases and stuff. And then I would sell it, you know. Oh my gosh. Bootleg ish. Not to think about it. Well, I mean, we got a three tiered system. I was like, I'm like, yo, I got this thing. It's not available on the East Coast, you know, You gotta pick up a few bottles and, you know, so I was having fun doing that. And then I that's when I really got to the realization that with, I would think, with every wine region, there's so much good stuff that doesn't leave. There's either not enough of it or, a lot of times it's not enough of it, or just like, you know, like, you live in Italy now. Right? Like, oh my god. It's that's how much wine is made in Italy? Oh, absolutely. That doesn't reach the United States is ludicrous. And that and so so so so what I've said is we don't know as consumers and as, you know, consumers of this product, there's some so, my buddy invited, he said, you gotta come to this wine festival. I went out to this wine festival with my boss. And he knew he's like, oh, man. Please don't leave me. Please don't leave me. And so then, yeah, literally, like, three months later, I moved out to Santa Barbara, California. This was nineteen ninety nine. And what I find interesting is here in the states, like, it like Santa Barbara's still kinda like a burgeoning, like, burgeoning wine region. When people are like, oh my god, wine from Santa Barbara, was like, man, I was there in nine nine, man, before Ford had all these AVAs, and people were making wines in these areas. But, you know, wine requires time, in its evolution, not just in the bottle, just as an industry. Absolutely. And also sort of in in sort of people's consciousness Yeah. Right. So, I mean, back then, it was it was all big nap of cabs, you know, and, you know, and you had your, you know, that was like the predominant data market. People weren't really thinking about a lot of the wrong stuff. And then, you know, but so So what was better is I ended up working as a Psalm and, wine store manager at a place called the Montecito wine bistro. And, you know, that was back in, you know, in in in nineteen ninety nine, two thousand You know, there weren't a lot of master somalis in the world. Most of the somalis in New York at that time before I left were like old French dudes. Most people didn't have, you know, these, degrees we have now, WSTT, etcetera, and so on. Like, it just wasn't it wasn't I wouldn't say it was it wasn't necessary you just had to know wine and be good with people. And I still think that Yeah. It was much more a thing in Europe than it was in the States in those days. Yeah. And I think even with that, I think it's more and I I'm I'm willing to be wrong, but I think it was more of the British. Like, in France, people Soms weren't going to study, and they were just they knew the wines of the regions, you know, they knew the wine list, and they were personable. Yeah. Lucky them. They grew up in the in the grapevines. Yeah. You know? So and that was, you know, also just a wonderful experience. Now I will say this is another thing too about luck and fortune. Also, I was dealing with more of a high end clientele, you know, where I was working on the upper west side in New York City. And then in Montecito, California, which is an unincorporated area, Santa Barbara County, which, you know, where, like, Oprah lives in Montecito. That's where her house is. So, you know, I was I just had the opportunity. And then when you're dealing with clients like that, once you serve them well, your hospitality professional. People love to share with you. So guests would bring in crazy bottles. You know, people would show up on a Tuesday night and bring whatever, DRC, Supertuscans, all kinds of california cult stuff. And it'd be, like, it'd be like, the most ridiculous wine dinner impromptu on a Tuesday night. It sounds fantastic. So it was. It was the land of sunshine, and just so nice. And great wine. So you took all those experience with all these amazing wines and you parlayed it into becoming the first African American fine and rare wine auctioneer. How did that happen? Because that also sounds really incredible and, like, a very unique experience. It goes back to Acar. So Acar John wanted to get into auctions in the late nineties. So I think Acar had, like, one or two auctions before John was dad, and they, you know, it was really tough. But John saw where the wine market was going. So while I was at Acre before I left, I, worked in the auction department for a few months, learning how to appraise wines, etcetera, and so on. And they actually sent me to auctioneer school, which there was a school actually called the Missouri auction school. I did not know there was a school for auctioneers. That is very cool. In Saint Joseph's Missouri, which is the home of the Stetson cowboy hat factory, and The Missouri auction school is known as wait for it, the Harvard of auction hearing school. Okay. Now what's so funny was I was like the I was everybody was local ish or or they were from, and they were coming to learn how to auction off steers. Or how to do a state sales. And I was, like, this I was the guy from New York. I was seeing one of one of two black guys, older black gentleman who was there. I think he was gonna have an estate sale business. He was somewhere, like, in that Missouri area. And, they're like, what do you what do you what do you do? And I was like, I'm like, I'm gonna be a wine auction here. They're like, what? They auction wine. And then I was telling, like, oh my god. It's it's incredible. Like, these wine auctions, they do millions of dollars, like, in a day, and they were blown away. But to graduate, I had to be an auctioneer. So I was like, how much would you give work? Would you give me five and five? I got ten, ten, ten, and back twenty, twenty, twenty, twenty. Like, I do the the fast auction thing because that was what we were doing there. And, you know, and, Whereas, wine auctions are much more civilized. The lady in the the lady in the back, paddle number, to the lady in the back, to the gentleman over there, five thousand. So I have six thousand for this beautiful case of declassified border, you know? Yeah. That sounds more more familiar. I went to auction school with Acar. They were having a big auction. And, no, John just asked me to come back and, and, auction off some lots. So that's how that happened. And, you know, so again, I I tell people a lot with life. I mean, it's just what it is. It you, like, it's who you know. Do you, you know, who are you meeting? So you should always be networking and putting your best foot forward and trying to bring value to people. So even after I had left, I was able to go back and and and get on that podium. And, and, you know, become the first, black African American fine and rare wine auctioneer. That is very cool. I I love that story. I I have two friends who are auctioneers, one in the States and one in England, and I think it's an interesting job, but also just hearing that story of learning to, to be an auctioneer where people were learning to auction cattle. That's fantastic. Well, I I've heard of a lot of people refer to you as a music loving wine influencer in in and amongst all of this. I mean, we are we are hitting the highlights here, like top end sneakers and fine wines and cattle auctions, but this music loving wine influencer thing, I I really am interested in this. You know, what what's that term mean to you? Music loving wine influence do you see yourself as an influencer? How do you combine the the music love and the wine love like your work every day? So interesting enough when I worked at Acor back in the day when I was a young foolish man. I had picked up a, the habit of smoking cigarettes and law school because of stress. But, you know, I mean, people in this business smoke cigarettes, I don't anymore, but it's kinda funny. Right? When you're supposed to be able to taste and smell everything, I don't understand how they do it. Why is there anything I've notes of tobacco? But we actually, you know, we were on West seventy second Street, so, you know, between Broadway and Columbus. This is in New York City. So right next to order west was like a jazz club. So sometimes I'd be out having a cigarette if I was working late at night. And, standing next to the the the door, and people are like, oh, you playing tonight. So people, for some reason, I don't know what my look or my vibe, people always thought I was a musician, but I just love music because my father, my father collected. My father was, was I would say he was an audio file, like, he was into the equipment. Right? Like, he he, like, he had all the high end equipment. He didn't have as much music as I have, but but I I came to appreciate, and he had a very eclectic. So, you know, he would have, like, you know, country music like Charlie Pride and Willie Nelson, then you'd have Billy Holiday, and you have Frank Sinatra. You know what I mean? So, like, I got and also He would have been great friends with my dad. Same music. And then being a child of, like, growing up in the seventies in the car with AM radio. Like, so, like, I know, like, all that, like, AM radio stuff, like, the carpenters and, like, all that, all that stuff that is now being sampled by hip hop. You know, I grew up on that kind of music. I had a huge CD collection. So I'm I'm a bit of an early adopter. So I got my first CD player, like, eighty five or eighty six before it was really big. And they back in the day, there used to be this thing called the, Columbia House cassette club, you know, a company house music club. And their hook was you get eight CDs for one penny, and then, you know, every month, they send you the CD of the month. Right? I signed up for that, like, you know, under, like, you know, MJ Taller and then, and then which is which is you know, my nickname, you know, it's based on my initials, and then I would use my first name, and then I'd use my middle name, you know, and then I'd, like, just make up things and get them sent to, like, my girlfriend's house and her nephew's name. So, like, I got all these CDs. Right? I had at one point, like, four hundred CD collection, and it was very eclectic. So how did the music come out to play? So my wife bought me a record player, like, I don't know, twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen for Christmas. And, I had lost most of my CDs between moves, various moves back from the East Coast to the West Coast. And, so, like, it just set off this thing where I just started collecting vinyl. Like, I wanted to recreate, like, what I had on compact discs on vinyl. So I just, like Old school? Nice. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. And so Like I said, like, geek out. You get obsessive. So, next thing I knew I had, like, you know, six or seven hundred records. And and your wife left you because you were taking up her whole house. No. No. No. No. No. You should see her shoe collection. Oh, okay. T Shay. That's fair days, when And so when I launched the black wine guy Instagram, which was kind of a goof on on influencers, to be honest with you, because I have a friend who owns a restaurant. And And I, you know, at that point, my day job, I was working with teens, high school kids, helping them get into college, such and so on. So I was doing, like, my own personal Instagram was just, like, motivational quotes and stuff, and me saying you could do it and stuff like that. And my friend, and of course, I knew this because I also had done so many things out of social media marketing company, but I wasn't thinking about tribes and niches. So he's like, oh my god. You see this wine community that's on Instagram. So I go on and I see people with incredibly, you know, just creative names, you know, creative names for what they were as a Psalm, and this Psalm, and that Psalm, or this inaphile, and that inaphile or, you know, Yino with an e a u x. And so I was like, what? I'm a wine guy on black, black, black, wine guy. Like, that it was a little like a spoof, like, it was like, it was a spoof form of some of the crazy names. It's almost Well, I did it for nine months. I never showed all it was was bottle shots. And that that was what was so funny. I was like, it's just pictures of people standing with bottles. Right? And and I was like, and those aren't even, like, great bottles. Somewhere over, like, supermarket wine bottles. You know what I mean? Like, and I would see all the likes, so it was just kinda being funny. Right? At first. I shut it down for, like, six or seven months. Cause I wasn't doing that. I was like, what am I doing, man? I'm wasting all this time on social media but then when I came back, like, I was I was visiting my relatives down in Florida, we were down there for things. And they were like, what what happened with black wine guy? It was, man, you know, so, like, that I just put up a post and everybody was like, oh my god. Where have you been? Thought you were dead. So I was like, oh, there's some interest here in this. So then what happened is I was like, okay, by sharing myself. Right? So I grew up in Jersey, and people Jersey is notorious for having attitude. Like, we do. We have an attitude in New Jersey. I was like, you know, also from New Jersey's Gary v, Gary Banachuck. And guys like us, like, I grew up cursing, you know? I wasn't supposed to, but, like, I'd go I I didn't curse at home when I was little, but when I was at school, I was like, rack, rack, rack, rack, rack. I mean, I curse. Right? So I was like, listen. And this is how I used to talk about wine. And and so I would I started doing these reviews, and I would start with, like, lyrics from a song. The lyrics could be obscure. And some like, someone asked me when I was interviewed couple of years ago for a print article. Like, how do you pick the word? And it could be one word on the label. Right? Sometimes everything lines up. Like, like, I'm like, they must've wrote they must've named this wine after a song, but sometime, I'll just look at something like, Like, I have a bottle in my hand right now, and it says friendship is our foundation. Right? So I would might go just for that. I might be like, I'm gonna use friends by Houdini as the lyrics for describing this bottle, and then I go to my my reviews where, like, I did one the other day, I'm I'll say utterly fucking ridiculous amounts of juicy blue fruit. Right? Cause that's what I would say. If I'm drinking with friends, that's what I would say. I wouldn't, you know, you know, I wouldn't say You weren't filtering it. You know, I did when I first I did a few rooms, I was like, I was doing the whole Wine speaking, like, copious amounts of unctuous. We all know. We all know. But and I love those words. I love big words, but then I was just like, this wine, like, a Sarah might be like, I'm like, It's like a tar street blueberry pop tart. Right? Everybody's had a pop tart. Well, not everybody, but, you know. Yes. But, no. You yeah. You get it. You get it. And it's much more accessible to say that than unctuous. Yeah. Or like instead of a lump sum, like, ah, so fat, you could see it from the front, which is a most definitely. Right? Fantastic. And so people and so that and and I think it was refreshing because I think people wanna talk about wine. Like, like, Like, listen, I I tell people I'm not the biggest blind taster. One, people have been blind tasting forever. Right? The judgment of Paris was a blind tasting. So this phenomenon of blind tastings that was thrust on by, like, the Psalm series, which did a lot for one. But I think it it makes people think that that's something new. And, like, my my listen is nothing new under the sun, you know, it just isn't. Definitely. Definitely. So I I I one of my thing is, like, because of my age, I'm a gin Xer. So I'm between the baby boomers and and everyone else. It's understanding, but also, like, what I try and do, I have a lot of respect because I think people don't realize, like, it's atrocious that Kevin's really who is like the godfather of wine education in America has like only eight thousand followers on social media. And then, you know, an attractive young woman with her WSTT one has, like, fifty thousand followers. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's disconcerting to say the least. And I and I'm I love marketing, and I get it. I've had a social media marketing company not get it. It's fun. It's exciting, but also the the issue is it can get away. People go down these rabbit holes, and a lot of stuff these people are saying they're just stealing passages from books and stuff they said, and they're re saying it. And they're not adding their own spin to it besides their cuteness. Yeah. I I love social media, but suddenly everybody's an expert on everything because there's no way of checking their credentials. So It's interesting. It's an interesting time. It is. Like I said, everybody's an instant expert. And what I what drew me to wine was like I could never know it all. Yeah. That's my favorite thing. No one can never know it all because it changes every year. You never know what's gonna happen next. Yeah. It was Mary Ewing Mulligan, Master of wine. I think first North America woman to get a master wine, author of wine for dummies on the podcast, and she just said what you said. She said, I can't claim to know everything about wine because even if I know a certain wine, it's different than the next vintage. So how can you know it all? Exactly. And that's That's the fun. That's the geekiness. That's the total magic seductive, addiction of wine because it's always changing. It never gets boring. Well, so listen, I've I've heard rumors that you've got a really cool idea for a more inclusive rating system kind of like not using, you know, linear and unctuous, to describe wines. You came up with a rating system that was fist bumps. I love this. Describe this to me. Tell me tell me sort of the ethos behind this idea because I really hope you pulled this off. Basically, it goes back to the wine and music connection. One of the most influential, magazines and and hip hop definitely was the source magazine in the nineties. Yep. And early aunts. And, actually, enough, I had friends who wrote for the source. So the source would rate albums with with a mic system. So, like, five mics would be, like, you know, it was, like, five mics go buy this dope shit today. Right? Like, it was, like, five mics. I remember that. You're right. I forgotten all about that. You're completely right. So so I was like, alright. The fist bump, which has been around forever, but was was brought mainstream by president Barack Obama and him and Michelle doing it. So everybody knows the fist bump. And I was like, well, what if I did, like, five fist bumps? The fist system, you know, like one fist bump, you know. So that that's really it was it was it was it was it was an homage to the the music. It was like, oh, okay. So you can relate to the source. You know, it relates to the source magazine, and it's very simple. Now I will say this though. There are people who who denigrate, like, Parker and the the point system. But here in the United States, we grew up taking tests and we understand points, so I understand why they did that. You know what I mean? People like metals and stickers on their wine labels. If you're in a grocery store confronted by three thousand bottles of wine, and you don't know anything, you're gonna look for the one that has a gold medal sticker on it. Right. Right. That's the thing, like, do you like I'm like, okay. They won gold at the central California Valley wine festival. And that's what I tell people. Like, even even if people follow me, like, my recommendations, like, I find it interesting. I'm like, I tell people all the time. You don't have to like what I like. You know, and I'm just sharing these ones because I felt moved. I really, like, like, right now, I only write reviews when I feel moved because I don't get paid for it. So, like so and even when I wrote them before, I was like, I was like, I felt moved. Like, I felt moved by the wine. Right? That being said, you don't have to like what I like. You shouldn't because this is the best thing I heard recently. I had another master of wine on my podcast. She's like, I can't be in your mouth. Like, yours your body chemistry is different. Your saliva is different in your mouth. You know, this is different. I don't know what you ate that day. Like, it's all different. Right? So it's so subjective. And it's really personal. Tasting something is very personal. You know, I I work with, you know, I teach. I'm a professor of wine and culture, and I teach students who are in their early twenties, and it's really it's such a personal thing, especially if you haven't got an experienced palette and you can't talk about you know, oh, white truffles and stuff like that. It's it's very interesting to talk about what something tastes and know why you should like it or why you shouldn't. Either you do or you don't. It's personal. That's it. Exactly. Well, I'm gonna be watching your Instagram and your podcast, and I wanna see fist bumps after you're talking about wine because I think that makes it so much more accessible to such a wider audience. It's so nonthreatening. Everybody knows what a fist bump is. As you said, thanks president Obama. But I I wanna see that happen. I think you could make this a thing. You're on to something. I like the fist bump rate. You can even get stickers to go on the white ball. Oh, I know, man. Listen, this is what I love, talking with people because ideas come, you know, and it's a Exactly. Exactly. Well, look, before I let you get away, I have to ask you my very famous final question because we're on the Italian wine podcast. What's your favorite Italian wine? And I have to know what music you'd pair it with. Man, so After your comments on Tar, I have a guest. I I here's what I can tell you. I will tell you that that is I don't know I don't drink enough Italian wine. So matter of fact, I'm in the midst of it of doing an Italian wine study with some friends of mine who who are really knowledgeable Italian wines. They own several restaurants here at the Jersey Shore. A lot of lot of wines. A lot of wines from Italy. They're the only place in America that gets them. You know, they go over and they have great relationships. So we're doing this thing called Italian one zero one because I wanna learn more. What I'll tell you, I'll share I will share. I will share three bottles I had recently. And last year that I thought were incredible. I had a twenty nineteen Bartolo, Delcito de alba. Oh my God. And Dolcshedo, very underrated. I'm glad you like them. Exactly. I mean, now this is like a forty to forty five dollar bottle retail, Dolcshedo. That's very sad. I'm not telling you what it costs here. No. I don't know what it costs here, but, like, you know, But I will tell you, like, I was like, I I love Dolceto. It's so underrated. It's easy drinking, but this was this had some sophistication. It was just delicious. It was brought by a guest on the podcast who who imports it was a who who, loves the time wines, imports a lot Taiwan's. And that was his thing. It's like, Dolceto gets no love. And I was like, bro, you're right. It doesn't. And then this is where social media does work sometime. Someone had posted this, a bottle of Barbara And it was it was in my wheelhouse because I like Roan wine. So I'm not afraid of fifteen percent alcohol. So this was like a fifteen point five percent alcohol barbera. So it was a two thousand and twelve Felipo Galino barbera, the alba Superior. Oh, my god. Oh, my god. It was silky, smooth, black. It was just made my top thirty wines of the year last year. Just so yeah. So I I love barbarian Don't Chettle. They're great everyday wines. You could pick them up in the States for, like, twenty bucks or less. Oh, fantastic. Yeah. No. I Barbara is one of my favorites, and I'll just break. Yeah. Well, those could be a little too Tar. That's the problem. Like, they get they're like tar, rose petals are tar. Well, if you are a tar guy, I we've gotta move you on to Barolo and to Gatinara and to Valtelina superiority. Those are my three recommendations for you if you're a tar guy. Okay. And then and then this one, and then I I I'll try and think of a music pairing of this one, but this was just outstanding. I was over a friend's house, and we're drinking wine. We've had a shit ton of good wine, and and his wife was like, we need one more bottle, which we really didn't. But that last bottle was a two thousand ten Teague Nello, and that was that was theodate. It was twenty twenty one. Yeah. That was eleven years in. It was in its pocket. It was amazing, and, it was beautiful. Oh, wow, iconic Wine Nello, iconic. Yeah. I mean, it's iconic. And, what would I what what what would I have paired that with? I would pair that with I'll tell you what I pair. I pair and and and pairings have to do with it's a totality of things, who I was drinking it with, you know. And because my the my friend who I who shared this bottle with with me and my wife, he he's a musician, kinda, he has a scob in, in addition to owning a retail shop, what, like, what's the commonality of us? Where we intersect with that Tignello? I would say ma and pa by fishbone. Hey, ma and pa. What the hell is going on? Yeah. Oh, wow. Interesting. Oh, Well, I gotta tell you. I've I've one of my songs, so same sort of thing, back in high school in the or in the early eighties when I was a real jazz head in Cleveland was winelight by Grover, Washington. And I have been looking. I didn't drink wine then. Nobody drank wine in Ohio. I got into wine when I was twenty, but I have been looking for the wine to pair with that for my whole adult life. And when I find it, I will let you know. Well, you're so funny. I I wanna hear that. I wanna hear that pairing. And when you said you're from Ohio, I'm like, okay. So When we drink wine, it's getting paired with back to Ohio by the pretenders. Like, that's where my mind works. It just goes random. Oh, yes. Awesome. That is awesome. Okay. Well, we we can't top that. We're gonna have to stop here. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it talking with you. Cynthia, thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you. And, when I'm headed over to Italy, I will let you know. So we can get together. You are more than welcome. Thank you for listening. And remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcasts in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. You can find us at Italian wine podcast dot com, SoundCloud, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your pods. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. 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