Ep. 2203 Michelangelo Iossa | Wine, Food & Travel with Marc Millon

The Campiflegre is part of our DNA from Napoleon DNA, even Napoli was founded by Qmani that was a population from Campiflegre. So we are from Campiflegre as the origin. Then Greeks and then Romans. So Capiflegre, and it's Falangina, and maybe it's the best loved wine for pizza or street foods mainly. Now we've tried the pizza with the rosé, which is the perfect combination for me. You know, it's a michelangelo point of view, of course. Fascinating people with stories to share, fabulous wines, and the best local foods to accompany them in beautiful places to discover and visit. All of this and more on wine, food, and travel with me, Mark Millen, on the Italian wine podcast. Join me for a new episode every Tuesday. Welcome to wine, food, and travel, with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, we travel to Naples to meet my guest, michelangelo Yossa. Michelangelo is an author journalist, university lecturer, and specialist in digital communications and marketing. Nichangelo's proudly from Naples and his intimate knowledge of and love for the city when I'm sure come through in our conversation. Well, George, Nomicola, many thanks for being my guest today. How are you? Fine. Thanks, and I'm very honored and pleased to be here with you. Well, it's very nice to, be speaking with you again. We saw each other. Oh, I don't know, a month or two ago Yeah. In Naples, and I really enjoyed spending some time with you, sharing some wine and wonderful food, and also learning about some of the many things you do. You're a man of many talents, and, and you do many, many different activities. So Briefly, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Are you actually from Naples and live in Naples for most of your life, michelangelo? Yeah. I was born in Laquilla in a in the center of Italy, but I three years old, moved to Naples. My family is Napoliton, and I lived Naples for all my life. And I worked here, my family here, and all my relatives are here. So I'm I'm in Naples, yeah, I'm Naples. And so you studied in Naples. Where did you learn to to speak such perfect English? Thank you so much. This is a a very special compliment for me. Thank you so much. I always loved English language. Since I was six, seven years old, I've sat in love with, musical The Beatles. So I'm a Beatles fan, first of all. So I started to learn English to know how the Beatles what the Beatles said in their their songs. And it's it's a way to to learn English. And then, studying English at school, and then in, a college in, in, Chelsea, San Giles in, in England, near London, in nineteen ninety one, nineteen ninety two. And then I I never lost my connection with English language. I always loved English language, English literature, so I was very connected since I was a kid. That's amazing. And that's really interesting that you learned English through the Beatles, and I know it is one of the topics that you've written about. Since I saw you, about six weeks ago, you've had a very busy time. First of all, you went on a tour across Yeah. Across Canada to discuss some of the many books you've authored and as a representative of of Italian literature, an ambassador for Italian culture and language. Have you come to have such strong connections with Canada? Yeah. It was a very I was very happy to be in Canada and was the first time for me, and it was a such an amazing tour because I visited Winnipeg and Vancouver, so Manitoba and British Columbia. And it was a program called, a tour program called for the love of Italian literature. And I was the ambassador of, Italian literature. I was very honored, of course. And I was in the Caboto center, which is the Italian Cultural Center in Winnipeg, and I went to Italian consulate in Vancouver. I met all the Italian community, Italy Canadian community, and then I was a special guest in Italian design week organized by the chamber of commerce of the West Canada. So I was very lucky to be the the guest of this program called for the Italian of love Italian literature, but it all started in the at the Vin Italy in Verona. And it's an incredible thing because I was in Verona, for Vin Italy, and I was talking about the Valerno wines, two Canadian distributor called low man equine and spirit. It's a fantastic distributor in Canada, a wine distributor in Canada. And I was talking to missus Rosana Pancorte, who is the leader of the low manik wine and spirits. And he was she was fascinated by the Valerno, the history of the wine, Valerno, because the Valerno is not distributed in Canada. So we started talking, knowing each other a little bit, and, we started talking about the wines, the Italian culture, and, and they discovered that I was a a writer and a journalist, and we discover some connection with Canadian culture. First of all, double o seven saga, the double o seven franchise, the the movie franchise, because the the film by double o seven were inspired by the the the novels of Ian Flemming, but they were produced by an Italian called Albert Brokoli, a Calabrian one, a Calabrian man, and, Harry Hosman, who was born in Shellbrook in Canada. So the saga of double o seven was, a connection between Italy and Canada. And so I've written some books about double o seven, so they invited me to do this presentation, but we discovered other connections later. So It was the magical thing. Yeah. Well, that's that's amazing. And I'm I'm really intrigued to hear how it all started with a conversation about and probably over a glass of for, you know, this wonderful mythical one, which we'll talk about a little bit later. It's how we've met as well at VIN Italy. So it's a it's a real crossroads of the world. There's great gathering of, of, Italian wine produced. Was the same day. The same day. That's Yeah. It was the same day. That's amazing. That's amazing. So you were talking about Italian literature. Were you mainly discussing your own books or were you bringing in Italian literature in a broader sense? Well, I presented my books, first of all. And when I was at the University of British Columbia, I was, a guest of the department of, Italian, French, and Spanish literature. So I talked about the Italian literature of the twentieth century, and I talked about myself because the students of Italian literature in Canada were interested to my books, to my career of journalists, and so they asked me things about my life about my career. So I started talking about, you know, Moravia Pazolini, Sasha, Calvino, and all the the the giants of Italian literature of the twentieth century. And later, we talk about me about my career. Of course, I'm a an end between elephants, of course, I'm a little writer between Moravia and Pasadena, of course, of course. But, but they as me things about literature, Italian literature in general sense. Okay. Okay. That's really interesting. And is there a large Italian population? I know I've got good friends who are Italian wine ambassadors. In Canada. I know there's a great interest in Italian wine, and I imagine Italian food. Yeah. There's a a a deeper connection between Italian, Italy, and Canada. There are so many immigrants There were so many immigrants since the, I think, port is to the seventies. For instance, in Winnipeg, Manitoba, the last wave of immigrants, Italian immigrants were from, seventy three or seventy four, so fifty years ago. But till today, for instance, there is a a little place in in Calabria in Italy, which is called Amato, and it's in Calabria in the south of Italy, which is three hundred people. And, there are citizens of Amato in Canada. There are seven hundred people. So there was there was there there is more people from Amato in Calabrio. In Canada than in Calabrio. So it's incredible. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible. I'm also fascinated by your interest and deep knowledge of English pop culture of the swinging sixties and and in particular with the Beatles, tell us a little bit about this. Tell us about the books you've written about this subject. Yeah. I've written a a book and and it was published in twenty twenty four. So this year with Franco assist. If Franco assist is a very important, movie critic, cinema critic, from Solventi Quatrade, where Italian Financial newspaper, and we tried to create a sort of a compass, a photography of a of a decade, the swing in sixties, in London. And we talk about the musical movement, the so called British invasion. So the Beatles, the rolling stones, the hula, the Kings, and all dusty springfield and Lulu and so on, and Stella Black and all the myths, Tom Jones, all the myths from the sixties. And we tried to explore even the movies from the swinging sixties. So Alfi, the double o seven saga, blow up from Micheland Antonio, and many more. And so even the the fashion, so the ministers by Mary Quancy, you know, the the famous haircuts, the mini Cooper, theaston Martin cars. So we try to explore as many aspects as possible to talk about the swinging sixties to talk about a decade that changed everything in terms of popular culture in the twentieth century. So it's, a decade of porridge. It's a brave decade. It's a it's a decade that the teenagers were the protagonists. So we explored the movies, the songs, the TV specials, and so on, and it was really fascinating for us. That is really fascinating. Is there a real interest in that era and in what was happening in Britain for Italians? Yeah. It was interesting for the talents. Two examples, two examples for you. One is michelangelo Antonio. Michelangelo very famous director, created one of these most important films blow up dedicated to the the world of the swing in sixties, and the the main character of the film is, inspired from David Bailey, the the famous sweet swinging sixties photographer, and he was Italian. Michel Antonio was Italian, of course. And another one, Alberto Sord, the very famous Italian actor, directed his first film in London, and it was called Fumodilaundra, London smoke. Fumodilaundra is the first Italian film, the first international film directed by Alberto Soli. So the Italians were very interested to the the movements that the wave that came from London. And so, we we called in Italy, we called the favelousiannis Santa, the fabulous sixties. Okay. Okay. Was there a favor Jose, Anise, Santa, in Italy? Was were similar things happening? Yeah. I think so. Because in, you know, in the fifties, Italy was in its its so called the boom economical, the economical boom. Okay. You know, domenico modunio sang Volare. Volare. Oh. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. And it and it was the the period of the Dolcebita too. It was maybe the main period where fashion, arts, cultures, songs, books, design a new Italy. In fifty one, John Joani Batista Georgini created the first fashion show that became the first made in Italy show from fashion for fashion. So we have from fifties to sixties. Maybe our favelosian is a santa with fellini, Rossellini, you know. So after a new realism, the blade bleakness and the recovery from World War two, where so much of Italy was in devastation. Yeah. This was really a time of hope and prosperity. Yeah. That's it. After the narrowism by Roberto Salini and Victoria de Sica who described an Italy that was very in pain and, was devastated by the second word and the fastens by Benito Mussolini, of course, the Mussolini period. So we were very resilient. As you say, sometimes Italian people started to build a new Italy in the fifties. Okay. With a new hope. So we have different films For example, we have the the Italian Comenia, like Comenia, Italy, Mario Monicelli, new on lyric films by federico Felini, or the new fantastic films by Sergio Leon and Lucas County. Okay. Sure. And a new status for Italy with Marcello mastreyanne and Sofiaolor and new Cymbals. And it was a very energetic period, very positive period for us. This economic boom also, happened in Italian wine with Italian wine, being produced and sent around the world and bringing the joy of Italy, the simple joys of Italian wine through names such as in the in the straw covered fiasco. So that was a very interesting period, which obviously changed both the renaissance of modern Italian wine afterwards, but it was during that same period, wasn't it? Yeah. That's the point. Because in the same period, we have the world famous Kanti, for instance. We have the world famous Fiasco. In many Italian books of the fifties of the sixties, On the cover, there is, you know, the landscape of Tuscany and the Yeah. And the and the fiasco on the front side. Yeah. Or a bicycle. Yeah. Or a bicycle. So it's a symbol. It's a symbol. Sure. Now you've already mentioned, your fascination with Ian Fleming in the Bond story, but there's a link with Naples as well, and lucky Luchano. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about this story because you've written about this too. Yeah. There's a moment in history in the sixties, in nineteen sixty, exactly in nineteen sixty that Naples was in the middle of, you know, of the Mediterranean life. And so Ian Flaming, the creator of double o seven of Chiefs Bond was interested to, interview Laky Luchano, who was the last gangster of history, and the first Mafia Director, the first mafia, you know, the main main main character, main main men, and he was interested to interview, like, Lushanoke, who was in Naples after his US period, he became a neapolitan citizen. So Ian Flemming met Laquilutani in a hotel in it in Naples, the Grand Hotel Chales here in nineteen sixty, in the spring, during the, you know, the works for the Olympic games in Rome, because in Rome, there there was the Olympic games in nineteen sixty. And in the same period, Ian Flaming and Metalakilushano. And it was an incredible meeting because on one side, there was a novelist who needed new ideas, on the other side, there was the creator of the modern mafia. So in nineteen sixty one after the interview, Ian Fllemming created the Spector Spectrum. You know, the organization Yes. Yes. Who was modeled on the mall, Matthew. Right. Amazing. Yeah. It was the inspiration that was, like, you know, mhmm. Yeah. And in nineteen sixty one, Yaron Fleming wrote a thunderbolt And the main villain is Emilio Argo, who worked in Naples. So it's an inspiration, of course. Right. Right. That's fascinating. Yeah. And, Miguel, since we've last met, you've had another book out, and you've been on a book tour for your latest titles, Story de la moda, Italian. Strange. Still's a story of Italian fashion from from the Renino to Valentino. Tell us a little bit about your fascination with Italian fashion and how important is Italian fashion and made in Italy style to Italian identity across the globe. Something you've been exploring in your travels? Well, it's maybe the main, identity symbol within the, you know, anogastronomia within the the food and wine food wine and fashion are the the main symbols of Italy in the world. Story Delamodeteliana is my latest book. I started three years ago to write about this book, to do researches about this book, and I talk about the the model Italian, Italian fashion, starting with the Medio Evo, the middle age with Dante Beatrice, because Dante, to describe Beatrice, and her arrival in the tutorial, in the divine comedy, he talks about her clothes, not about herself, about her clothes, how she wore her clothes, their color, their shapes. So it's like, you know, a a couturier, a stylist who's talking about clothes. And then I started to focus my attention on some figures like leonardo Domingcia, michelangelo Rafael, or in the nineteenth century, John Batista Georgini, Valentino, Georgio Gabbana, Giovanni Versace. They are symbols of our identity. The creation of the fashion is a is a form of art. It's a collective form of art. When we when we wear a clothes, when we have on ourself a clothes, we, we leave a form of art. And we are a collective form of art. All the Italians are a collective form of art linked with fashion history, of course. When Giovanni Versace died, the New York Times titles were Johnny Versace's dad is the modern leonardo da vinci. Of course, it's a it's a paradox. It's, it's an image, of course. It's a journalistic image, but it's not so far from the reality because Johnny Versace is the new dimension of a creator of of art. So I think that fashion is part of our identity, not forgetting that thirty four percent of our richness is fashion. In Italy, one third of its richness is fashion. One third. Really, it's not important to the economy. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. Thirty four percent of our pill, is from fashion. So one third of our richness, one third of our identity, economical identity, special. That's amazing. And and I understand what you're saying about fashion being part of Italianicity of really defining collectively the nation. When we think of Italians, we think of Italian style. We think of beautiful, close, but also beautiful objects that are made. And, of course, beautiful food and wine. As you say, wine and food are also essential elements of this made in Italy story. Yeah. One one of the, you know, very well because you wrote you wrote a a fantastic book, Italy in a wine glass, which is my favorite twenty twenty four book ever. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah. I have near my bed. It's near to my bed. There is a copy of it. It's it's a in a wine glass And in your book, you talk about the names of Italy, the ancient names of Italy, one of the ancient names of the south of Italy where was Enotria, in late means, the land of the wine. So is the identity is the DNA of our country. I think, you know, the average preparation of every Italian person is higher than the other countries, about the wine. Many Italian people, talk about the wine with, you know, the with knowledge. If you go to another country, there isn't the same knowledge, the the average knowledge, I mean, of course, not the the specialist knowledge. I think you're absolutely right. And it's in the way that Italians can also easily talk about history or art and particularly of the history or art from where they're from. Yeah. Because it's just part of something they've absorbed from childhood without study with just it's just part of who they are, who who you are. And I'm sure that's the same with, you know, Italian wines and food still remain Yeah. Rooted to place and so very local. Yeah. It's an organical process. We it's a natural process. We don't have a a grandfather who said, you don't forget that the parmigiana is the best one. No. It's part of our identity. It's a process. It's a wave. You know, we are in a wave. We are in a sea with knowledge about our past its identity. Sometimes it's it's pride to. It's original pride. So, you know, Valdosta has its own pride, things, and Campania is his own his own prior things. But as we said, in our meetings, if you go to Valdosta or Sicily, if you go to liguria or Pulia, you can find fantastic foods, fantastic wines, They are different with different identities, but always fantastic. So the the level is very high everywhere. Absolutely. And it's interesting as well that Italian food and wine is so precise, so local, so regional. But at the same time, Italian food and Italian wine has really conquered the world. It has universal appeal. What do you think why do you think that is? Well, I think that's the, you know, the the attention to the detail. You know, the, we said, the divine is in the details. We are in a strange area. Italian people live in a strange area between art and artisanato and industry. You know, we are like a square. And in this square, there are three streets. One is the art, one is the Artigenato, the artisan knowledge, and the industry. So Italy's a a place of synthesis. It's a a meeting point of these three factors. Actually, that's that's a that's a beautiful way to describe it, Michenagena, because I think you put your finger on it in as much as there's the art and the artists and skills. Yeah. But at the same time, you do need the industry. You do need to be able to have a produce wonderful products that are insufficient quantity that they can go around the world. Yeah. Something's very local, and many products are very local in Italy. They remain in their area, but we think of things like parmigiano reggiano Yeah. Or so many. So many things that, you know, we can find wherever we are in the world. And that's that's an exciting connection that we can all have, which feels directly with the country. Yeah. There are two different dimensions. They are combined together every time. So, you you talk about parmigiano reggiano. Parmigiano reggiano is the main example It doesn't lose a gram of his authenticity, but it's worldwide distributed. So it's, in at the same time, local and global. Yeah. Exactly. And it's at same time because I've been to, Casi Fiji many times in Yeah. It's still an intensely laborious product that is made. Using age old methods in copper vats to make two wheels of parmigiano. So it's still very much Artigenato, but it is also on a large enough scale to to be found everywhere. Yeah. Let's turn more particularly to a subject I know you're very knowledgeable about and love very much, which is the food and wine of Naples. So share with our listeners who are located all around the world something of the flavor of Naples, something of the typical foods that absolutely every visitor has to sample. Yeah. First of all, we have to remember that Naples is a two thousand six hundred year old. So that's the the first thing to remember. So we have a lot of nominations from, the Greeks, Romans, Spanish, French, from Angelini to Aragonese to bourbon, to the, contemporary period, the Republican period, the monarchy of Savoya. So we had different nominations, and it's the symbol of these nominations is the foot. Because the food is the synthesis of this domination. So we have, you know, sweet things like the baba, which was, from Poland. It was called the La polonaise, the Polish cake, and it became and it became the Baba. Another one is the Salatela, which is a a very famous cake. It's a symbol of Naples and is, made with Ricota. So it's like, connection to the Greek period. That's the pastera pastera is the Easter cake, and this Easter cake is inspired from the Greek period with, you know, honey and ricotta. And then we have some parmigiana de Milanzane with the de Milanzane. Obergine. Yeah. Obergine, but they are worked with the Sugo, you know, the tomatoes, and it's, it's a nineteenth century Resipe We have, a very ancient Resaipe. It's the Lazukina, Lazukina, Lazukina, Lazukina, Lazukina, Lazukina, Alaska. It's a a transformation of Zukina, X Apichiro. Appichiro was the a writer from the Roman period, the Roman Empire. Oh, yes. Of course. Who created the the first recite book. APichum Apicho, so Dukina x, Appicho became a Tukina las Capesha. It was a transform of a literal transformation during these centuries. Then we have, you know, spaghetti of course. We have Raghu, is the the the main Suga, the main, the main course in the scenario. It's very different from, regular. Totally different. It's totally different. Tell us a difference. Because Raghou Balenierze, they are special. Of course, they are fantastic both. Raghou Balenierze is with the, pieces of carne machinata. Okay. So the ground meat, the minced meat. Yeah. We don't have carne machinata. We have these three, of, four pieces of meat, and they are in the, tomatoes, sugo, the the the, you know, the salsa de dipomodoro. The tomatoes, of course, brought over by the Spanish. Yeah. The tomatoes were by the Spanish, and they are still today cultivated in the Vasuvius area because Visuvius is very fertile, you know, it's an area of fantastic fertilization for tomatoes. So we have lots of tomatoes, a special tomatoes called the piano. It's a a typical kind of tomato, the moderator, that's the the the the main name. Is that the one with the little pointed end? Yeah. Yeah. It's like a horn, you know, a little horn at at the end of the tomato. Would people hang them up to to store them? Yeah. Yeah. So we have the, you know, on Sunday, We prepare dragoo with the tomatoes and four different types of meats for five, six, or seven hours. We we leave the, you know, on the on the fire. We leave the tomatoes with the meat, and then we take the ziti, a kind of pasta, which is a long pasta, but it's it's broken with the hands. It's a long pasta. It's one meter pasta, and you you have to break it with the hands. In small pieces or still keeping it in small pieces? Like the pin, you know, like, the five five centimeters. And then we we we eat the the the the pasta with the with the sugar, ragu, and then pepper, and salt, and parmigiana. That's the With the meat, the as a secondo, or over the pasta? No. No. It's the second, the second course. Okay. We have just the sauce? Okay. Yeah. You you con you preserve the sauce, and then you put the meat on the sauce. When you eat the meat, you can do the Trey. Okay. You take the the bread. Yeah. You take clean and place it in all the delicious sauce. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Of course. I'm getting hungry. Yes. Me too. Another dish that I really loved when I was in Naples, I think you told me about it. Is the genovese. Was that originally from Genova? No. It no. It's not the name is is understanding because it's maybe from Geneva So Geneva, Geneva. Oh, Switzerland. Maybe from Switzerland. Yeah. But there are different point of views because, you know, there were some, boats from Genevahips from Geneva, with genovese sailors. Okay? And in those boats, there were lots of onions, Chipotle. So the genovese is, like, a ragu, but it's a poor ragu. Because it doesn't have tomato. It it has onions and meat. So it's the same process of the ragu, but with the onions instead of the tomatoes. Okay. Lots of onions at slow cook and become very sweet. Very sweet. And it's a wonderful it's my favorite, Nepal dish. Yeah. I love that. I love that too. Now, of course, we have to mention pizza. And I want to mention, one of my favorite movies, which is Laura Denapoli Yeah. With that wonderful, episode with the beautiful Sophia Lorraine. Yeah. In pizza frita. The pizza frita is actually the original pizza. Is that right in Naples? Yeah. We have different kind of pizza. The pizza frita is the poor one because when you don't have tomatoes, but you have oil, you can do the pizza fitter. You can do the the fried pizza. The pizza is, you know, the the base, okay, the basic, the round. Okay? So the pizza is the shape, of course. And you can use it as as you wish. So in the pizza frita, you can put the ricotta. The is like the the poor parts of meat, pepper, salt, and you close it, and you fry it. So during the war, it was very popular because it was a poor dish, a poor reside. So it was very popular. Now it's a gourmet thing. Of course. Uh-huh. So it's a street food that you eat in your hands. Yeah. It's a street food. You you eat it in your hands, and Sofia Lauren was fantastic in that film was directed by Victoria de Sica. It was filmed in Naples, and she was a pizza maker in that film in the area of Matterde. And still today, there is a pizzeria called Starita, in Matrde, which is an area of Naples that has the the original, you know, things to do the pizza. So the, you know, the the the pants and the the forks, Yes. Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. When I was with you staying at the splendid grand hotel parkers overlooking the beautiful day of Naples, I learned the neapolitan word that I'd never heard before. I think I have this. It's Is that correct? And what does that mean? Can you share with us what this delicious word means? Yes. Means not it properly. You have to eat some little things. So a little bit of parmigianity, Melanzan, a little bit of ragu, a little bit of bread, a little bit of Tarali, you know, a little bit of, I don't know, record a little bit of mozzarella. Little things. That's Okay. So it's it's not, you know, main course, a second course, third course, or cake. No. You take a little bit like a bee, a little bee. You take from different flowers So a little pieces of things. A little nibble and a nugget of this and and an equivalent of a sort of Spanish tapas. Tapas. Yes. The same things because it's we have, the Bormonic period, of course, it's two hundred and fifty years period of bourbony enables. So we recreated the culture of tapas, of course. So it's like tapas. Yes. Yes. That Spanish connection, of course. Yeah. The Spanish collection. Yeah. Let's turn just briefly now to the wines of Naples. And also, I want to go back to this very special wine we mentioned, the falerno, the falerno Del masico linking it with the falerno. Of the of antiquity. But before we go to for learning, let's talk about the wines of Naples. What are the typical wines that that, you know, would enjoy with pizza, for example? Well, you know, we we have some typical typical wines from companion from Napoli, the falangina, first of all, falangina, from the Roman emperor, from falanga, which was a technique to do the wines, to cure the grapes, to have the grapes in good shape, and so on. So, filangina, fiano de Avilino, Grego Ditufo, Grego Ditufo, even in the name as this or region from the Greek period, of course. Taorazi from Tanya and Irpina, Alyanico, but, Nepal people eat the pizza with, I think that the white wines, mainly with the white wines. So mainly with the Falangina and Grego did the From the Campi flagrae then, which is really part of Naples still. Yeah. The Campi flagrae is part of our DNA from Napoleon DNA. Even Napoli was founded by Qmani, that was a population from Campislegre. So we are from Campislegre as the origin, then Greeks and then Romans. So Campislegre, and it's Falangina, and maybe it's the the it's the best loved wine for pizza or street foods, mainly. Now we we try the pizza with the rosé, which is the perfect combination for me. It's a michelangelo point of view, of course. Okay. What about Graniano, which is from the sore Sorrentine Peninsula? Some people have told me that this light, zesty, sometimes almost sparkling wine red wine that can be drunk cold is an ideal wine with pizza. Yeah. I think toteau said it was his favorite wine with pizza. Bravo, you're a Napoleon person. You're a Napoleon citizen now. Was the the the most famous actors from Napoli, was a a a fan of the Graniano, the grignano Fizant. We call it Gragnano Fizant. Graniano is the place where the the most famous pasta in the world is created still today, and it's the place where Graniano wine was born. The it was served cold, fritsante, and with the pizza or with the pano. The pano is like a, you know, a bread with, a lot of things inside. And so it's a typical graniano bread. And the graniano wine is as a very joyous wine. It's very allegro, you know. So it's very joyful. Yes. So it's a a simple wine, but it's perfect for pizza. And in the sixties and the seventies, till the eighties, it was the the main wine for pizza, the main wine. Then it was a little bit forgotten because the the beer, you know, started to be linked with pizza. Today, we we eat the pizza with different things, with beer, with graniano, with Coca Cola, with Rosier, with Falangina. So now it's a very versatile, a versatile dish, the pizza. I prefer with the rosé for me Okay. My point of view. Okay. Okay. And Let's just finally talk about, this wonderful story of Valernum, this wine that, was the most famous wine in antiquity, that all the great writers from pliny to virgil to Marshall, to Horace, wrote about a wine that was found on the lists, a wine list in a tavern in Pompeii as the most prestigious wine of the Romans. This has been rediscovered by the Avalone family. Mhmm. Yeah. It was the first DOP of the of the of the whole world. It was the the first crew of the world world. It was the the the main wine for emperors for Caesar's period. It was, you know, a gift of love from Marc Antonio to Clopatra, when, you know, the Romans had a a partnership with Egyptian Faros and with Clopatra, Mark Antonio as a gift of love gave to Clopatra, the Valerno wine. And the Valerno was combined with different things, with, water, with honey, with fluids, There were different levels of Valerno. The most important one is was the absolute Valerno, who was drunk by the Caesars, Julius Caesar drank the Valerno wine, only the Valerno wine made in amphora. So it was the, you know, the most prestigious wine of all the antiquity periods of all the Roman empire, till the middle age, it's it's still it's the the gold medal wine, it's the gold medal wine, and it was dead. In the nineteen in the twentieth century till the fifties, there were no more falernum in in Campania. And there was a lawyer, Francesco Avalona, you you interviewed his son Salvatore, recently, in August in your one podcast. And Francesco Valona, a lawyer with, a great patience for the Roman Empire history, re discover the the perfect soil to recreate the the falereno wine, and he rediscovered the the territoir, you know, the terroir in Valero Del masico in Campania, twin, Campania Lacio, and he recreate the the the vineyards for the Valerno. And so he founded in nineteen sixty five, he founded Villa Matil de Valone, and still today, the main wine of Villa Matil de Valone is the Valero de Masque, of course. It's a wonderful story. And Yeah. Wonderful wines being produced now by the Avellone family Yeah. That really are fitting heirs to this greatest wine, the Roman Empire. These are wines that are, of course, winning the highest awards and alc accolades. Yeah. It is. Michelangelo, you've taken us on a wonderful, wonderful visit to Naples in our brief conversation today, as well as taking us with you on your travels as you've taken a Italian culture around Canada recently. I know you launched your book on fashion in the arena de Verona, an amazing Roman amphitheatre in Verona. It's been a real pleasure meeting you again. I do hope that we'll have the chance to get together over a glass of that Vila Matil de Avalone, again, very soon. Why not? Yeah. It will be a pleasure for me. Thank you so much for being our guest today. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much, Mark. I'd be very honored. I'm very honored to be interviewed by you, and I'm I'm a fan of your Italian wine podcast. So that's great for me. Thank you so much. Appressed. Appressed or chow. We hope today's episode of wine, food, and travel with me, Mark Millen, on the Italian wine podcast, has transported you to somewhere special. Please remember to like share and subscribe wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at italian wine podcast dot com. Until next time, Chinchin.