Ep. 2222 Christopher Barnes | Wine, Food & Travel with Marc Millon

This is a common theme perhaps in in the documentaries, the films that you're making. Is that you're really going into the the culture of wine of of wine drinking and also conveying a sense of the joy the happiness that wine brings. Even when there been sad and tragic events as in Armenia, wine has been something that is, for centuries in millennia, held to, make life happy and and joyous. Fascinating people with stories to share, fabulous wines, and the best local foods to accompany them, and beautiful places to discover and visit. All of this and more on wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on the Italian wine podcast. Join me for a new episode every Tuesday. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, we traveled to New York to meet Christopher Barnes, the founder of the grape collective, a media, and retail business focused on wine. I first met Christopher in Sicily when we were both exploring wine on on Aetna. That was a good few years ago. I can't remember when Christopher, maybe twenty twenty two. Anyway, how are you today, and thanks for being my guest? Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. Thank you, Mark. Nice to speak to you. And, yeah, it was a it was a wonderful trip that trip, really, one of the most, stunning, landscapes, not just wine landscapes, but landscapes, anywhere. So, yeah, very enjoyable. Yes. It was very enjoyable and such a unique and extraordinary place to be making wine. And I know this is a subject of one of your beautiful films that we'll be discussing in our conversation today. So I look forward to to talking more about Aetna. Now, Christopher, you're the founder of the grape collective, which we'll talk about in-depth, but first, I'd like to know more about yourself, your background. You have very impressive media credentials, and I know you've done a lot of things in your life. So I'm interested in in your story and how you eventually turned your career to wine. Sure. Yeah. Pretty eclectic background, born in Buenosasaris. Father was a foreign correspondent, so I lived in many different parts of the world ended up going to, a boarding school in England. I have dual nationality called Beedales, which was, no uniform, co educational, very, very sort of liberal and studied film and English at, University of East Anglia in Norwich and, went into the movie business. I have credits on, a couple of, small films, pumpkin head two, which included, Roger Clinton, the former president's brother as the mayor. Some people say it's better than pumpkin head one, but it's, a contentious subject in the in, in the horror world. I was, a couple other small films as well, and then I got into media. And I started the first free daily newspaper in New York called, AM, New York. For a while, it was the largest free paper in the United States we were doing about three hundred and fifty thousand copies a day. And we sold that to the Tribune company in, I think, two thousand six. Following that, I did some work in San Francisco for a media company. And then, was asked to run the New York Observer Media Group in New York, which I did for a while. I was really interested in the whole subject of how media is sustainable in the future and how you can create media businesses that don't sell subscriptions or advertising. And I thought wine was very interesting because, you know, you had these legacy media companies in wine, and and and I don't mean, legacy in a pejorative sense. But they were just very traditional media companies, you know, like the wine spectator, the the wine advocate, the wine enthusiast, which, which were all subscription based and very focused on, on points. We started, oh, well, I started a a business that tried to, support, journalism through retail. Combine the experience of of learning and reading and consuming content with drinking and purchasing wine. So, that's that's kinda how I got here. Well, that's an incredible story. And I'm imagining Christopher that you like like me, have lived through this incredible transformation in media as we moved Wealth, in my case, from typewriters, to first, Apple two e computers and and and and Max. But I mean, this this transition for, you know, into the digital communications world, into the digital media world, and and as well, the transition away from print away from, subscription publications, away from paper even into into digesting so much media through screens and telephones. So that must have been from your point of view looking at things, Technina. You know, the technology of media, would have been a fascinating part of your career. Oh, for sure. I mean, you know, I I I think in in some respects, there's a a certain amount of nostalgia for for the types of news organizations that existed in the past. I don't think these newspapers, you know, are are are the same or will be the same. But, you know, changes changes always happening, and and there's a tremendous opportunity in terms of you know, the what they call the creator economy and people being able to, to develop their own stories and use technology to create, like, you know, amazing things. So, I mean, I I think it's very exciting, personally. Yeah. Yes. You mean that individuals can suddenly become con content creators and and find their own niche audiences or or very large audiences in in many cases. Yeah. Absolutely. The tools are there now. Absolutely. And they're getting better every day. I mean, even just tucking in the in the weeds, you know, editing on, DaVinci Resolve, which is a a free program, it's incredible. I mean, the AI tools that allow you to to to get wind out of the the soundtrack, for example, are so sophisticated that you would need a specialist with thirty years of experience, you know, like, like, like, the chap in Copola's, the conversation, you know, to kind of do what you can do now with a a click of a button on a on a on a free platform. So, yeah, it's it's incredible the tools and, and, and, you know, even the phones, of course. Like the the video and the resolution that you have compared to even a few years ago is just incredible. Sure. Sure. I'm just thinking that, you know, you you went to film school in the University of East Anglia. So film has obviously been a great love an interest. But when you were starting all the other media companies and the other roles you were doing, I'm imagining you weren't actually having the joy and the challenge of being the content creator yourself. You would have had journalists and and various people supplying content. You wouldn't have been so directly involved as you are now. Is that right? In in most cases, yes. In some cases, I was I started a magazine in London in my early twenties that I ran for three years before before running out of cash. And in that case, I I was the editor in the publish. I published or I sold ads. I wrote stories. I laid it out. I did everything. So, I've also been an editor. What what year would that have been? Oh, maybe ninety one. So we're talking about well before the internet age when the layout was done I guess you probably had a Mac then to to do your. Yep. Yeah. It was quark Express. Quark Express. I remember that. Yeah. I remember the laying out a book on that. Old school. Yeah. Yeah. But those skills are are are important and transferrable. And you've obviously have terrific skills. Your projects have, you know, demonstrated. But the the great collective itself seems to me such a unique Absolutely. You're not need offering because you're essentially a wine, media, and content providing a creator of award winning films, podcasts, articles of in-depth, and really worthwhile content. And yet at the same time, you're a wine retailer. Yeah. I mean Is the retail more of a sideline to help fund the content creation? Or is that is that sort of what drives the the income? So the retail definitely drives the income. And but I I'd say they're, they're not separate. They're, you know, one, informs the other in into a degree. And I think the content informs the retail rather than, vice versa. So, you know, we create, content around super interesting stories in the wine world, and then I, you know, we we then sell those wine. So for example, you know, we've got a cool we just released a little video on, Salvino Benanti last week, and, hearing his story and his father's Yep. I saw that. It's great. And now you can, you know, you can buy some of his wines in in the shop. So we call it an experiential store, meaning that there's soil samples. There's a ton of photography. We have a a model of Mount Aetna in the store. For a while, pre COVID, we were doing tastings with VR goggles. So you could feel the soil. You could You could put on goggles and and take a virtual tour of a winery and then taste the wine and buy the wine. So it's really trying to kind of take the what I would call the perfect experience, which is walking through a vineyard, you know, let's just say. And in Tuscany or Aetna and, with the winemaker and then tasting the wine and, you know, trying to take, like, five percent of that into a physical space and, and allowing people to kind of elevate the experience of drinking wine and really, making it much more informative and enjoyable. So so the retail is is different. It's not like normal retail. It's it's retail informed by content. That's what we're trying to do anyway. I absolutely love that. I think that sounds like the coolest wine shop I've ever heard of. It sounds, an incredible experience to be able to offer that. And to be able to offer mean, we're talking about wines that are not easy to source as well and wines that are iconic wines. I've, you know, I've been looking at your list and you have a great list. But as you say, there are wines that all have terrific compelling stories behind them. I don't know if you ever went to Venus in London. Do you remember that interactive wine museum? It was by London, yeah, it was by London Bridge. It was a sort of near the Bura Market. And I remember one of the things I had there was, in the Italian section, you could sit on a Vespa with headphones on, and there was a film showing on the screen as it drove through, the Kianti Classicico, for example. Afterwards, you could have a glass of county. And, it was a really great experience. I loved it myself, but it sounds like you've taken that to another level with tools such as, virtual reality now, you know, actually feeling as if you're in the vineyard. Yeah. I I, you know, and, and the soil samples and we do we we were doing handouts. I mean, some of that we've dialed back post COVID because the idea of sharing a, a VR Goggle with other people. I think these days is a little, little tricky. You know, hopefully, we solve for that in the future. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, let's turn to, to two of your films that I've recently watched, which I was so impressed with. And I know these films are both up for awards. They're being shown at film festivals. Around Europe, and I'm sure in other places as well. But let's talk about first thing. We met on Aetna, but let's talk about Palmento, the battle for tradition. The the film opens with really beautiful, mesmerizing scenes of of the lava flows of Aetna. Tell us about the film and about how you were inspired to write this extraordinary story. I guess I'll I'll I'll go back a little bit. And, so the one you haven't seen is vines in the shadow of Teeta, which I'm happy to happy to share, which is also kind of at the end of its festival run now. And it was really during COVID, you know, I had a bunch of, I'd say fairly aggressive growth plans. And then COVID came, and it was, like, you know, everything, the world changed. My business changed, you know, like, how you wanted to spend your time, all of that kind of stuff. And, and I started thinking about the content that we were doing, and and I had been a year before to Croatia. And I just found it such a magical story that really deserved more than these three minute, four minute videos that we were doing. So I started in my spare time, you know, my my family had, moved up state. So I had a lot of a lot of evenings and that so I started cutting, a longer video, and I thought it was quite good. And, so I brought in a part time editor once things settled down a little bit. And eventually, went back, did some reshoots, and then, I was pretty happy with the final product. And then I was thinking about the next thing And and I thought Aetna was, you know, the trip that I went on you, the trip that I went on with you, sort of happened because I was supposed to go during Aetna. And, I had a a coffee with Stevie. And she said, oh, well, I have this trip. Are you interested? And I was like, wow. Yeah. Of course. You know? And then when I got there, I was so mesmerized by the people to story, the physical place. You know, I thought it was an amazing, amazing story. And that sort of, that that was the genesis. And then I came back with a friend of mine who's a very, very good videographer, a filmmaker from Spain, Alfonso, and, we set up some interviews. And I think, you know, when you get into these projects, it's sort of like, you're not quite sure where it's gonna go if the video if the interviews are gonna be any good, if the story works, the enough came out of it that that I thought that there was is a film there. So then I I reached out to this guy Giuseppe DeStefano, who has a wonderful website called Aetna Walk, and he's one of those guys that films all of the lava flows, very, very talented, filmmaker. So I started working with him, and he filmed the harvest, and he filmed Salvahati making wine in the Palmetto for me. So I worked with him with his footage and the footage that we shot and he shot. And, and that's how we put together the Palmetto movie. And I would still say, you know, like, I'm somewhat of a self taught filmmaker. So, you know, I learned through doing and through watching YouTube videos and, there are things in it that we did at the beginning when I look at. Now I'm like, you know, we need to go back and fix that. So I I it's not totally complete in my mind. But I'm pretty happy that the with the story that came out of it for sure. Well, it's a it's an absolutely compelling and beautiful film. You know, you've spoken. You interviewed some of the giants of of of of modern Italian wine. The the people behind the renaissance, so Aetna, but it's much more than than a film just about wine and winemakers. You're really getting to the soul of this unique terroir. This you know, what what what the challenges are of I don't know. With that with that volcano erupting and with Salvo talking about what a Palmetto represents and how it really is the, you know, the traditions are so important with connecting with wine as it's been made for literally thousands of years. And, you know, the Pementos are so beautiful in themselves. So I think it and I love too, the soundtrack, the music that you put on throughout. So it's, fail my urge our listeners to find a way to view. Is there a way that that is yet on general lease, or will that be happening? Yeah. So I think well, the answer is, right now, no, is just doing the the festival run. But we the plan is right now to release a series of five films together, so, Croatia, which I discussed Aetna and Armenia and Greece as as a as a group and hopefully that will happen by, the end of the year. So that's that's the goal. Or Greece and Morocco already made? They've been shot. Greece. I need to go back and do some more, more filming there. But, but Greece is a fascinating story. I mean, it it it really, you know, if you think of, of Plato and Aristotle and, Socrates, you know, I mean, specifically Socrates is sitting around the table, basically creating western philosophy and western politics, all of those thousands of years ago. He was drinking Greek wine, you know. And so so Greek wine has played an enormous role in society in ancient Greece. Dionysus was one of the most important gods, the god of wine. And and even in in modern Greece, it's it's played an important role. And and they're just some fabulous characters. I mean, lord Byron, was one of the most interesting people to, engage with the, the revolution when when Greece broke away from the Ottoman Empire, and he talks about, drinking Greek wine. And he he died. Samey and wine. I remember lifting high the cup of Samy and wines Yeah. Or something along those lines. Yeah. He and and and he died in Greece, fighting for the revolution. So I mean, there's some I didn't know that. Yeah. There's some, there's some fascinating, fascinating stories connected to, to Greece and Greek wine. Yeah. And then, and then Morocco is very interesting as well with, with Voloxera and Napoleon encouraging, the planting of grapes in, Morocco, Algeria to to basically feed wine to his soldiers. And then the French occupation. And then, you know, the the the modern, kingdom of Morocco and where wine fits in that is also quite a nuanced and, an interesting, subject as well. Well, I look forward to seeing to seeing both of those in due course, but let's turn to a film that I have seen, which is, Noah's vines. The film about Armenia your fascination with wine, I think it's very evident from our conversation is is deeply about history, but above all, about culture, about what wine what wine signifies to us as human beings and and and wine and identity. And there's so many subjects that you cover in here, but Armenia, you know, is a country that goes back to the origins of wine, but So few so many of us know virtually nothing about Armenian wine, and I was fascinated with the film you made. So tell us about Armenia and Armenian wine, and its importance. Again, this was somewhat serendipitous occurrence, how this film I was actually interviewing Marco de Gracia on Aetna. And one of the questions I had asked him off camera was if there was any region in the world he would like to go to and make wine. And he said Armenia, and his eyes lit up. And he he walked me, I don't know, five hundred meters into a different part of his house and, brought out a book, on Armenian culture. And started flipping through it and talking about Armenian wine. And and to be honest, I knew, like, nothing. I just sort of kept quiet and nodded a lot. But then when I got back to New York, I I bought the book and I started reading about it, and then coincidentally, one of the most important Armenian winemakers happened to be in New York and came, to the store, and we interviewed him there. And the story was just incredible, you know, and the wines were really good. You know? So it it was, so then I was just like, well, I'll get a ticket. I'll fly over there. We'll film, and we'll see what comes out of it. And, yeah, they have these two, what I would call amazing origin stories. So the first being Noah, you know, Noah's arc landing on Mount Arabat, which is a sort of is technically in Turkey right now, but, you know, it's the spiritual home of Armenia And it's on all the money. I mean, you see it whenever you're there. And Noah, in the Bible, it says that he he, was he planted the first vines. He was the first one to get drunk. So it's it's sort of one wine origin story. And then they have this cave, in, in Armenia called the Orenni one cave, which they've carbon dated the, the the wine, pips, and stems to, six thousand years ago. So it's the oldest, winery in in the sense of, multiple and for us like making wine on scale that has has been discovered. And the very interesting thing is when you talk about terroir as a concept, The the pips and the stems are genetically the same, not exactly the same, maybe, but the same as the grapes that are growing in the ground today, the already that that they're making wine with. So you know, you talk about a, you know, a a vine for a place and terroir, and and that is really the definition of terroir. And then, of course, the the country has had such a an incredible history with communism, with with what they went through, with with Turkey, and, with the mass exploitation and and all the people who died. And then with independence, and and and wine is sort of a a very important symbol to the people of Armenia. So It's a fascinating story, and the wines are fantastic. So I've never tasted an Armenian one, but you've certainly made me want to. If I was in New York, I'd be straight down to the grape connective. Certainly after after watching that I actually found some in, in the cotswolds when I was down there a couple years ago. Yeah. Is that right? I'm gonna have to search this out then and do a little more digging. I I love the way, you know, the film is very moving. It's very moving indeed when when some of the winemakers are talking about what their families underwent of the people that were the many, many people that were murdered and the diaspora of Armenians having to leave their homeland, leave their countries, and go around the world the the film very much speaks of the importance of how wine is part of the identity of the Armenian soul, really. There's a beautiful story about the genetic memory of people that were had no wine making background, but who somehow felt the need to go back to Armenia and make wine. And a lot of people have returned, and are behind this sort of renaissance of Armenian wine. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, it's the the film starts out with a gentleman telling the story of visiting, a cousin in Upstate, New York and how this cousin never had any experience with wine, but then just decided to start making wine and how there there must be something kind of inherent in the Armenian, you know, soul that that connects them to wine. And, And and they're, you know, during independence, a lot of Armenians who were successful, outside of the country, came back to, in a way, I think, to kind of, to give back to the country, you know, to to invest in wineries and to to help, rebuild what was an important, cultural tradition. And I think quite successfully, So the the the wines are are are really quite terrific. And there are these very unique, indigenous varietals, that are unlike anything else. Are they making, wine in Amfa, like, in Georgia? Is this the main, way of winemaking still? So there there are some Enfa wines being made. But I would say the wines are, they're they're not, like, funky wines, you know, like and, of course, in Georgia, they're they're different, There are different levels of skin contact. But you really I mean, for for me, the skin contact, process with the Georgia wines is a is a big part of the story. In in Armenia, it's it's less present. They do use anfora. The anfora is the the technical way that they make the wine with the amphora. The amphora is half in the ground and half out of the ground. But the the grape is really present. You know, it's it's it's less about the process in a way and more about purity of the fruit with with the Armenian wines. I'm not saying that the Georgian wines don't have purity of fruit in any respect, they're fabulous. I love George and wines. It's just the the the way the wines are made are just a little bit different. Okay. That's really really interesting. You're really making me wanna try to hunt some of these wines out, and I'm sure they must be great varieties that few of us have ever heard of. But I think what comes through in both Palmento and Noah's vines, and I and I think this must I'm imagining just speaking with you that this is a common theme perhaps in in the documentaries, the films that you're making is that you're really going into the the culture of wine of of wine drinking and also conveying a sense of the joy the happiness that wine brings. Even when there have been sad and tragic events as in Armenia, wine has been something that is, for centuries in millennia, helped to, make life happy and and joyous. And I think in the the the film ends with a the beautiful feast song that that is sung by one of the winemakers, fill your cups with wine, my friends, and let Armenian wine be sweet to you. Such a lovely, lovely thought and a lovely, sense of the simplicity, and joy that wine brings. Is this is this again what you've why wine is such a unique product? Yeah. I mean, for me, you know, light wine is, life affirming, you know, that when it's when it's made with with passion and and the right, the right ideology, it's it's it's something that is a very important cultural, or aspect to to to individual cultures. And and I like to see it as a prism in terms of illuminating unique cultures. So through the prism of wine, we're trying to tell very unique stories. And and I think the the the joy, is certainly part of it. But, you know, it's the the there's also a lot of conflict in Croatia. For example, there was there was the communism and wine pretty much came to a to a to a stop, for for many years, and it was just made for for individual families, you know. So it it's it's really a way of understanding, very some of these incredibly fascinating and unique cultures and and and they're both personal stories of the of the individual families, but also stories of the collective groups that that that make up these, these these cultures. So so yeah. I mean, I I, you know, I'm interested in it. I love it. Hopefully, it finds an audience, but, yeah. I think it certainly will. And you're absolutely right. You know, the joy that comes from drinking wine is even more important because of the the complexity and richness and and sadness of some of the stories. New talent of the challenges and on Aetna, for example, the challenge of the daily challenge of living on, on, one of the most active volcanoes in the world, which I think, you know, certainly that comes through. Strongly. I think the films are great. And I do hope that our listeners will be able to find a way to see them sometime soon. I'm I'm hoping that this collection will make it into the cinemas here in the UK as well because I think they deserve a wider audience Do you have other plans now? What is your next big project? Well, I think finishing, finishing Greece is really the the the big one, in in sort of right in front of me. I've been talking to to Stuart Pigate who's, I think, one of the great personalities in, in the wine world and great writers about a, a film project, but I don't think we're we're quite ready to talk about that yet. And I I have about twenty odd, different storylines that are sort of outlined in terms of this whole concept of using wine as a prism to understand sort of a fascinating complex culture And, so I'm I'm I'm looking at some of those and figuring out, which are which are more doable and, kind of working through that at the moment. But, yeah, so it's Yeah. There there's there's a lot to do. Yeah. I can imagine. Just going back. I'm just curious. Going back to the, the logistics, the the day to day realities of of the grape collector. Do you have a a large online audience as well that is able to purchase the wines. Yeah. I saw your interviews. I'm not sure if it was on Instagram or or or wherever, Salvina, been anti recently. And, you know, it it's a great interview, and it's even greater if one can perhaps have a click and and and find that wine arriving. Sure. Yeah. So we do we do have an online presence. The I mean, I could spend probably two hours going over the complexities of online commerce right now. But, we've kind of focused more on the physical retail currently. I think in the future, online can be a big part of what we do. But there are certain certain commercial realities that have to be, in place for online to work. And and there's a bit of, there there's a there's a path to get there that we're not quite there yet. So so most of what we do is, is in the the two physical stores, one in New York and one in New Jersey, and online is a small part of it. But, hopefully, in the future, a larger part of it. Okay. That's really interesting. So I'm imagining you do events, regularly in the stores then. Yeah. We do weekly tastings. We do some classes. When we try to do tastings, we try to do things a little bit differently. So, for example, sometimes we'll do events where people can come in and taste some wines, blind. So let's say we have four different pinot noirs from different parts of the world, and they can taste them and then vote on them, you know, get an understanding of how they're different, why they're different, what they like, things like that. So try to bring a little joy to the experience of being in a physical space that that sells wine. Sure. Sure. No. That sounds great. That sounds, and it sounds like the sort of wine experience that all of us, wherever we are in the world would wish we could, have access to. Christopher, it's been really great catching up with you today. I've been fascinated to hear your story to hear how the great collective works, and I very much look forward to seeing the next films, as they are made available and look forward to that. But in the meantime, thank you very much for being my guest today. I hope we meet up again in two thousand twenty five. I hope so as well, Mark, and, I have to say I, I enjoyed your book and, one of my chris Christmas gifts to, to the team a great collective was, was a copy of your book. So in terms of what we're trying to do with film, I think you did, to to a great degree very successfully with your book. So, congratulations on that. Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And I'm I'm very, touch that you gave gave copies to the Great Collective team. Well, Christopher, I hope we, we may have the opportunity to meet, but in the meantime, good luck with all of your projects, your many projects. I will be following them. I look forward to to the next chapter. Thank you very much. See you soon. See you soon. All the best. Lover. We hope today's episode of wine food and travel with me, Mark Milin, on the Italian wine podcast, has transported you to somewhere special. Please remember to like share and subscribe wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at Italian wine podcast dot com. Until next time, Chincin.