Ep. 1439 Erica Duecy Understanding US Media | wine2wine Business Forum 2022

Hey, guys. Check out Italian wine unplugged two point o brought to you by Mama jumbo shrimp, a fully updated second edition, reviewed and revised by an expert panel of certified Italian wine ambassadors from across the globe. The book also includes an addition by professor Atilio Shenza. Italy's leading vine geneticist. To pick up a copy today, just head to Amazon dot com or visit us at mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Italian wine podcast is delighted to present a series of highlights from the twenty twenty two White wine business forum, focusing on wine communication and bringing together the most influential speak and the sectors to discuss the hottest topics facing the wine industry today. Don't forget to tune in every Thursday at two pm, Central European time, or visit point to wine dot net for more information. Okay. So I'm just gonna introduce for, for some of you, who don't know Erica. I, I feel like This is really a great, great session. She calls herself media expert and consultant, but she's really you know how people say they are a media consultant and expert, And you're like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. But she is really a media expert and consultant. She was the chief water buffalo for many, many, many, many, magazines and including Vinepair seven fifty and as of late picks. And I've been a great fan of hers. So this is not an altruistic, session in a way. I invited her so that I can finally listen to her in person. I think what she has to say, this is a very good kickoff because it will be an overview of where a media is at in terms of wine communication. So take it away, and I'll come back for some Q and A. Right. Thanks so much, Stevy. So I'm really glad to be here with you today talking about one of my favorite topics, which is the American media. I've been working in the American media for more than, twenty years. I have run publications on the digital side, social media, video programs, etcetera, for big brands like Architectural Digest and Savura Magazine and Fodor's travel. And then in the past several years, I became really known as a person who could either turn around brands, or come in and start new brands or create, new products for publication, for any type of publications or startups. So, for example, I pitched the idea of seven fifty daily to the company seven fifty and then launched and ran that for several years. Also for drizzly, which, if you live in the US, it's the it's the biggest alcohol delivery platform. For them, they needed a way to reach media and reach their audience which was retailers. So for them, I created a first party data and insights publication called Bevac insights. So that's so I've kind of worked in the trade side, the consumer side, over many years. And that brings us to today. So this this session can be called, you know, understanding in the American media landscape and effectively positioning your brand or how I learned to stop worrying and love the meme. And there's some reasons for that. So why are we here today? You know, we're here today to talk about wine communication, and that's really the focus of this year's wine to wine. And it's we know that communication is changing. So we're gonna get into how. First takeaway takeaway number one. Communication is changing significantly. In the past several years, we have seen a shift in the media from longer written articles to shorter punchier formats like video, TikTok, and memes. So that's takeaway number one, visual content is becoming increasingly more important and it really drives engagement. Takeaway two, the content of this meme. Build an audience, they said. It'll be easy they said. And that's kind of for a lot of brands. What we would consider the big lie of the internet. And that is if you put your content out there, people will find it. They'll come to you. And as we're seeing, that is really not the case. The building an organic audience for a brand has become more expensive than ever. That's because over the past several years, really, since about twenty eighteen, organic social reach has cratered. And at the same time, the cost of advertising on really any platform out there, through social media, through Google search ads, etcetera, has risen and risen and risen. So we know that it is harder and more costly than ever to build your own audience. And that breaks us to takeaway number three, which is why should you care about the media? There's a good reason, and it's because connecting with and through the media for brands is one of the most cost effective channels, and one of the ways that you can reach big audiences So, you know, we know that media platforms have scale, and there are tips and techniques that you can use to better position your brand and to work effectively with the media. So those are some of the things we'll talk about today. First, let's look at what's happening in the overall medium. So, this slide shows the decline in newsroom employment. And really there's no question about it. It's a tough time to work in journalism. This year, more than three thousand jobs, have already been cut. Media jobs in the US. A lot of them are in newsrooms, but also, a big number of them in digital, in digital publications and magazines. And what's behind the decline, in in media? So the biggest drivers are declines in ad revenue and subscriptions. And, yes, there are bright spots. There are some digital publications that are doing a great job and building very sustainable businesses, but really, that's more of the exception than the norm. So what we're seeing right now is, a lot of editorial jobs being cut. We're seeing lower pay for writers. And in a lot of ways, that means that the resource are draining from the field, or people who are more senior staffs at publications are going out and becoming solopreneurs and starting their own publications. So this is one of my favorite memes. Media consumption patterns are changing. So I I laughed out loud when I saw this because I feel like all of us old school people who worked in journalism, we feel this way. You know, long form writing is going the way of dinosaurs and a smaller and smaller subsection of American readers, certainly, are still reading in-depth articles. The fact is at this point that most people in the US are getting their news through social media. Average Americans spending about three and a half hours a day scrolling on a smartphone, and we know that we do process images about six times faster than words. So Americans are looking more for quick sips of content, not like the five course tasting menus that you would see in a New Yorker style feature. And that's why we're seeing the rise of TikTok, YouTube, etcetera. Are quick hits, they give us just enough to feel informed. And that takes us to wine media. So I didn't want to rely just on my own expertise or im impressions. So like everything else I do in my life, I had to over research it. So I interviewed several professionals from all sides of the media business, publicists, writers, editors, TV presenters, and my goal was really to get a comprehensive idea of what people are seeing in the field. And so their ideas and tips are incorporated with my own in the following slides. So let's look at what's happening in drinks media. So this graph shows the drinks publications with the highest number of visits per month from US based devices. So you can really start to get a sense for the scale of some of the bigger publications. One of the notable things here you can see is that, the biggest the biggest one, so liquor dot com, Vinepair, wine enthusiasts, they're not just wine. They cover other categories. And, you know, I would say wine searcher is a bit of a cheat here because while their audience is large, presumably, most of those people are coming for the core functionality of that platform, which is locating bottles. So, you know, take it take it with a bit of a grain of salt. But directionally, you can see that even at the smaller side, sites like Kansas Robinson and, Robert Parker, they're still getting more than a hundred thousand visits in the US each month. And that's a lot of eyeballs on wine content. So, you know, you as a brand or a region, you want to be there to get your product in front of these wine focused consumers. So that's one point. There's scale here that you can access. Point number two. It's not reflected on this side, but we need to talk about it, which is upheaval. There's a lot of it in the drinks media. You know, the drinks media is very much a microcosm of what's happening in the rest of the media space. And how does that play out? Well, we've seen closures of publications like fall staff and the drop at PIX. We're also seeing ownership changes like Janice Robinson, which was acquired by private equity, and then recently did a round of layoffs. And we're seeing businesses shift in real time. So Decander, for example, recently expand, announced an expanded US's, editorial staff as it's looking to grow its business, its audience, and its advertising in the US. Wine enthusiasts. It recently expanded into hard seltzer and spirit reviews. That came as a surprise to a lot of people, but it really lines up with what we're seeing, in terms of consumer trends. So that brings us to point number three, also not represented here, but new you mentioned, which is fragmentation. I touched on that a little bit, but everyone that I spoke with, for today's presentation remarked on this. So there are a lot of these little micro publications popping up everywhere. They're small in scale. They're very specialized. And this is happening as senior staffs, weave the bigger publications and start their own ventures. So, you know, we've got Jane Ansons inside Bordeaux. We've got Karen O' Keith, Italian wine reviews. We've got Lisa Peroni Brown's, the wine independent. And these re these publications may just have a fraction of the reach or readership of some of the bigger publications, but they have something else which is valuable. Which is really engaged readerships. So because these publications are built on subscriptions instead of advertising revenue, they're really supported by a self selected group of interested readers. So moving on. We're also seeing the explosion of content into other channels, like I noted, beyond the written word. So I don't know if you can see it, but the the views on these YouTube series are seriously mind blowing. So in the middle one there, that's constantinebaum who I think is gonna be here, this week. And, you know, that one video is averaging four hundred and fifty thousand views a month since it was launched. That's more than a lot of the publications that we just discussed. Right? So you might expect to see that type of engagement for, like, celebrity or fashion videos, which I've seen in other parts of my career. But to see this type of viewership for videos, about wine is is super rare. You know, you've also got Andre Mac up there in a Bonapati series, more than two million views just on that one video. And Amanda McCrosson, who I know is here this week. So she's on TikTok. And this this video, this like TikTok video, it was discussing a really obscure, you know, the use of port tongs in on opening older wine bottles, and it's got two hundred thousand likes. So it's very exciting to see this level of engagement, and it speaks to the increasing importance of video and visual formats. And meanwhile, podcasting numbers are pretty hard to come by, but just anecdotally. When I was a co host of the Vine pair podcast, the amount of feedback that I got both from consumer listeners and trade listeners was was kind of, you know, surprising to me because for previous to that podcast, I had always been, a writer. And I had, you know, maybe gotten a couple, you know, a handful of comments on articles, but suddenly being in this podcast format, I was getting, you know, tons of outreach people were really listening. The engagement was much deeper than, with articles. So I think, you know, when you see people on videos, when you hear them on podcasts, you really start to form a connection with them and you feel like they, you know, people feel like they know you. So that's a trend that I think we're gonna see continue. Alright. So what are we seeing here? So so I think it's important to look at changing demographics. And we can see here that older generations really prefer wine and beer very clearly. So, you know, you see a twenty point drop there, from, the top of the top top age, you know, down one notch, but that's not what I'm concerned about. What I'm concerned about is the twenty one to thirty four age group. Right? And so that's younger millennials, older gen z. And for that group, there is no line preference. And related to that, you know, we've seen a lot of a lot of reports coming out that even older millennials are not switching on to wine, as quickly as previous generations had done. So why is this important when we're talking about the media? Well, that twenty one to thirty four age range is a key demographic for American advertisers, across most categories. So that's why you're seeing magazines like food and wine become more like food and wine and cocktails and beer and spirits. Right? They are shifting to the changing, interests of both their advertisers and their consumers. So, you know, and I think that's what we see with, with wine enthusiasts as well. So that's a key point to make. And in terms of trends, there are a couple other things unrelated to this slide, but worth noting that me and my colleagues have seen rise to the top. So wine and travel, The consumer travel media, travel leisure, conde nast travel, or afar suddenly wine itineraries are everywhere. So if you're a brand or a region that has a story to tell about traveling in your area, absolutely start getting, you know, get out there, hitch it because we've been so surprised by the amount of wine travel stories that we're seeing. So, so that's one thing. Another thing people ask me a lot about is, like, why are all these lists out there, like five x, five wines to drink now, whatever that is. So there's a strategic reason for that. And so those are SEO stories. So search engine optimization, right? So I type in what are the best Italian wines and up pops a story like the fourteen best Italian red wines to drink in twenty twenty two on liquor dot com. They're total masters at this SEO game. Or the five best Italian wines beginners must try on winefolly. They also have really nailed SEO. And so it's it's important for people to realize this is not necessarily what consumers are looking for. This is a strategic decision that that the publications are making because we used to be able to bring in audiences through social media. But as we discussed, that organic social reach has cratered, what's the next best way or now most cheapest way to bring people into your publication is through search engine optimization. So that type of content. Alright. So, other other trends worth noting celebrity. If you have a celebrity investor or a celebrity a celebrity angle at all that you can leverage, That will get coverage, diversity. We see a lot more interest from publications and covering people from, underrepresented backgrounds in the industry. Climate change, if you can talk about the changes that you're seeing in your own vineyards, that can be used as a hook for a larger story about climate change, wellness angles, low alcohol, no alcohol, wine alternatives, natural wine, organic, low intervention, biodynamic, etcetera. Those are all sort of some of the the bigger trends that you can hop into if you, are, you know, able to jump on any of those. So I love love this meme. This cracks me up. Do you remember Oprah's heyday? Every week, she was sending people to Australia or, like, giving people cars. Right? So strategy strategy for all, everyone gets a strategy. So what's the biggest challenge in connecting with the media? It's really strategizing. Deciding how and where to prioritize your limited resources. And you really need to nail down the five w's, right, who's your intended audience? What are you pitching? When are you pitching it? Meaning, what's your timely hook? Where are you pitching it and why are you pitching it? What's your goal? You need to come to media pitching with a very strategic, rationale. Right? So some things to consider. If your resources are stretched very thin and you don't have much PR or marketing spend, you should ruthlessly prioritize. So for example, if you need to have a clear path to sales, then you're probably gonna wanna pitch the scoring publications, the wine spectators, wine enthusiasts, Jeb Dunn. And these offer a very direct path from review to purchase. So one of the great publicists I was talking about, talking with who, you know, she said, like, I had a great example of this last week. There was a one of my clients got a ninety one point score. And then the next day, their distributor called and ordered eleven hundred cases. So that's that type of clear attribution that we're talking about when scores lead to sales. You know, another thing is, you know, who's the most important audience for your message? Is it consumer? Is it trade? Well, if on premise is a major, channel for you that is very important to your business, then you need to be pitching and advertising in places where songs go, like trade journals, guilds, podcasts, educational resources, things like that. So develop a plan and be intentional with the results you're looking for. Alright. So let's get into some tips. So I won't go through each of these, but a couple of thoughts to consider. I firmly believe that the best way to get media attention is to offer a direct connection to your winemaker or owner. Are you enjoying this podcast? There is so much more high quality wine content available for mama jumbo shrimp. Check out our new wine study maps or books on Italian wine including Italian wine unplugged and much much more. Just visit our website, mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Now, back to the show. Wine communicators love wine. That's why we're doing this. It's certainly not for the money. And so it's no surprise that people like Dan Petroski of Massacrekin wines or Laura Catana of Catana wines, they get an outsized level of attention in the press. And that's because they're constantly out there working the room. They're talking with communicators telling their stories, and so whoever is the face of your winery leverage them. Authenticity, writers, editors, TV presenters, everyone emphasized this point. They want to hear from producers and they want to know what's actually going on. So just, you know, don't just say all the shiny, happy marketing stuff. You know, be real. Talk about the struggles that you're facing and how you're adapting. And these stories, they build trust and get communicators rooting for you. And the more invested someone feels in your story, the more they're going to want to help you succeed. Another thing, target trade influencers. People in the trade can be powerful informal brand ambassadors. So wine communicators like me tend to be laser focused on what people are saying in social media. So if I see someone post about a wine, probably gonna look up that wine if I'm not familiar with it. And I'm going to say, you know, you know, what is this wine? I'm gonna wanna try it. And and for the wine communicators I talked with, you know, a lot of people said that's the number one way that they find out about wines. They someone put something up on social media, and then they they look up the wines themselves. Another thing is offer communicators interesting tasting experiences. Right? So several publicists have told me that the way they got Bruce Anderson or Eric Asimov or Ray Isle to taste their wine was to offer a vertical tasting with a wine maker. And those types of one on one experiences, they get people excited, you know, it's access, it's exclusivity, and that can result in significant coverage. So think about who you want to reach and offer them something big so to speak. Alright, improving social media presence. So why are social media channels important in the greater context of media? Well, as we just said, you know, one of the first places that people that wine communicators go to learn about your brand is social media. And these winemakers all do a great job of telling their story. So, Kristiana Taberio of Taberio in Abruzzo, Deirdreheikin, of Lagara Gista in Vermont, Raj Parr of Finland Farms in Southern California, and Martha Estuman of Martha Human wines in Northern California. I would suggest looking at their feeds. So none of them have a big budget like Ferrari Trento or Gallo but they use social media platforms effectively. And here, I'm just showing some Instagram examples, but this advice applies to all platforms. So when I'm looking at Christina Tavario's feed, her messaging is clear and consistent. She's aligned with the cause of autochthonous varieties and organic farming. She's all about varietal purity. She only vinaifies and ages in stainless steel. And she's been singing that message for ten years. It's consistent and it's clear. And her feed like others here, they tell a story. Even if it's not photogenic, so Raj Par, pruning vines is not particularly photogenic, but it tells the story that he's in the vineyard doing the work. So show those behind the scene images, and show some personal flavor whoever the face of your winery is Let that personality, let that passion shine through. Another easy tip that it blows me away that not more wineries are doing this. I don't know if you can see, the small bar up there, but this is a topless Creek's website. And the point I'm making here, topless Creek gives easy quick access to their logos high resolution photography, videos, contact info for their US and international distributors, tech sheets, wine labels, and bottle shots for every single wine they make. And in talking with my media colleagues, the number one thing they said is that all brands should invest in a bank of high quality photography and make that available easily without logging. I can tell you as an editor, that I have chosen Topless Creek to illustrate more articles than they are probably should have been chosen for just because it's easy. Everyone's on deadline, art directors, editors, writers, everyone's on deadline, They just wanna get the images and move on with the story. So if a brand can make it dead easy to work with them, they're gonna be selected more often than not. Alright. This one, public relations. I gotta say it is a big deal. So in this day and age, I think that working with market specific PR is more important than ever. They are your boots on the ground. They have existing relationships with writers. They're the face of your American, of your brand in the American market. So when you're looking for a publicist here are some things to consider. You should research them. You should interview them. You should make that they have the right contacts. Are you looking to reach scoring publications or somms and retailers or consumer media? They're a publicist who specialize in all of those areas. And I really encourage you to think about your PR team, as a collaborator. So I talked with one of the companies who's here today. They have a great framework in methodology, that's been yielding excellent results for them. So first, they reach out to a communicator on LinkedIn to assess their interest and learn about their preferences, then step two. They put the communicators on a various outreach tracks, where they may be receiving samples or invitations to relevant zoom tastings, then step three. Then if that works out, then they are invited to a one on one experience. And then if that works out, that might yield a trip. So the point here is that there's a strategic escalation of engagement based on early successes. So if a communicator appreciates the line and is highlighting them, then they'll continue to be nurtured. So so I think that's another point about being strategic, having a framework of engagement. And my advice really is to hire a team who can work with you on a strategic level like that, and then let them do their work. So I can't tell you the number of publicists I talked to you who say, like, you know, my client is in another country. And they don't know the American market, but they're very resistant to the ideas that I have. And as a result, you know, unfortunately, I think a lot of wineries don't get the kind of impact they're looking for because they don't trust their experts on the ground so I think, you know, my takeaway is trust your publicist and like, let them do the work. Alright. So, lastly, meet people where they're at. So podcasts are booming in the US, and alcohol brands are now joining the ranks of advertisers. So key wine advertisers right now who are spending millions of dollars a year are constellation wine dot com, total wines and more, And the exciting thing is you can really target the type of listener that you're looking for. So we've talked about how audiences are becoming more niche and focused, and this is a great example. So naked wine spent more than a million dollars this year on podcast ads. They're looking for general consumers, to sign up for their wine deliveries and they've been targeting history and news podcasts with direct response ads talking about how naked wines takes the guesswork out of wine selection. So that is very specific. They're looking for a general consumer, and that's, and that's a great place to reach that type of consumer. Now for a niche opportunity, there's something like the four top. The four top, their audience is very wine trade centric. It's hosted by a wine author and a master of wine. So ERath wines, presumably. I haven't talked to them, but, presumably, they're looking to reach that trade audience. And they are doing something very cool. They've they've taken over there doing the, in sponsoring the entire season. But how they did it was a really integrated approach where on each episode, there's a small interstitial where Catherine Cole, the host is tasting the wines with the winemaker and in conversation with the winemaker, and it changes each time. So, you know, you can get very specialized, audiences and specialized results when you're working with these niche audiences. And so I think also, you know, while you're at it, don't just think about podcasts for advertising because you have the experts, you have the winemakers and owners, and you should definitely be pitching them to show up on as guests on these win focused podcasts. Alright. So we're coming to the end here, but the bottom line is this. Connecting with and through the media is one of the best options for you to reach audiences at scale. You know, to build brand awareness and to help people discover your product. So if you don't already have a media strategy dialed in, take some time to hone one so it aligns with your business goals. And my hope is that you've gotten a few actionable actionable tips takeaways here that will help you get a more organic media placements and possibly some fresh ideas for, paid media placements as well. So I know we're gonna move to Q and A, but know that I'm here, and I would love to help. Again, I love nothing more than talking about media and how to tweak or redefine or build, products that can help you reach the audiences you're looking for. So my email, I didn't actually put it up here, but it's erica dot doosie at gmail dot com. You can find me on social media. And I'm happy to talk with you about your content strategy and your approach to engaging with the media. And if you see any good wine meetings out there, be sure to tag me. I'd love to see them. Thanks so much for listening. Okay. Thank you, Erica. We'll take some questions from the audience now. Thank you, Erica. I just wanted to ask you. So you've you've drawn a nice picture about how their landscape is changing in terms of media. What about the budget that you need to allocate to media and PR? Has that changed quite a lot with the change of, like, channels and things? Yeah. I think it's really more coming at it from a very strategic perspective. So I think what I used to see is more of like the spray and pray, type approach. Whereas now, I think you really have to understand from a, like, from an ROI perspective, like, what is your specific goal? And then, so I think it's actually much more of a kind of hands on approach of saying like, okay, do I need scores that translate into sales? Am I looking for brand awareness? And then depending on that, you know, that's how you make decisions. But I think that from a budget perspective, it could range so tremendously. I mean, if you're if you're a very small brand, then, like I was saying, you absolutely need to ruthlessly prioritize there, and really go for what is going to have the highest, you know, measurable ROI. But then for bigger brands, I think it's really about being strategic about, like, the specific audience you are reaching and how you're reaching it. So, for example, I would say, did you used to advertise, like, take out a full page ad in a magazine? Well, I think there are smarter ways to spend that money now. And that might be something like, you know, sponsoring a some episodes on a podcast where people are actually hearing more about your message, and you maybe have a podcast host who is tasting the wines, and so you're getting that additional layer of trade reinforcement. So I think there's smarter ways now of spending the money but the, I mean, the budgets could range so tremendously. That was awesome. Thank you, Erica. A question for you as a writer and editor, if someone is bringing you a winemaking talent or you've agreed to take the meeting, How much of the conversation are you interested in being kind of the background and the story of the winery versus kind of the personality pieces and a lot of what you've talked about today? Yeah. I mean, I think that's I think it's it's very important. So I would I would say, as an example, let's just take sustainability for a moment. Right? So these days when I go into a restaurant and I ask about a certain line, basically the but there will be, like, three to five talking points about that wine. One of them is, like, a sustainability part. One of them is, the background of the winery, and one of them is, you know, I know, some something about, like, the variety or something like that. So let's just say that we have kind of like three main talking points about the wine. I think you need that picture, just as a Psalm is telling me, hey, here are kind of the things you need to know about the wine for me to affect lee tell the story as a writer or an editor. I also need that, sort of framework around it to say this is a fifth generation winery. They're organically farmed. They're, really into, you know, Octalk then as varieties or whatever that messaging is. So I think it's like it's like building that story. But in the initial pitch, I would definitely say, if someone's approaching me for the first time, like, they need to give me one to two paragraphs about why this wine might be a fit for me. And if they've looked at my writing, they'll know that I'm into sustainable wines. I'm into things like I talk to this varieties. You know, That sort of thing. So I think it's it's definitely important, to know the writer that you're pitching. And I would say that, one of the pieces of feedback I had from all of the writers I spoke with was if they receive a pitch and it is not addressed to them and it does not reference, at least a passing familiarity, they won't open it, or they'll just delete it. So I think that the competition for people, you know, for kind of, media attention, really has increased. And so it's it's more important than ever to just, you know, really have that personal outreach. And I think that's why definitely one of the reasons that I see PR becoming more important is because it is that it's on the ground relationship driven, part of the business. Okay, Erica. Thank you. You've done justice to, I think, the this presentation. So, my question would be, hiring PR consultants, maybe very expensive. What advice do you have if I have to a higher communication executive to work in the team instead of having to work with consultant. Yeah. Great question. So I think, my advice would be to work with an individual as opposed to an agency. So I think you can get good. You can get really great results from there's so many, communicators out there now who have left bigger agencies and are starting out on their own. Or are kind of moonlighting as PR. So I think, like, you can you can find individuals to work with, who are going to cost less than a a big agency. So if If that is a, you know, if you're kind of a small winery just starting out, need to find a low cost source, I would definitely say, go with an individual over an agency, and then eventually, an agency will probably be the solution just because there's many more relationships, there that they have. So, so, yeah, I'd say start small and then scale up as you can. Firstly, Erica, brilliant, brilliant presentation. Think we could all go home after this and we've actually it's been worth coming already. So thank you. Second, I'm interested. You said about there's now this blurring of the line where we're moving into more spirits and seltzers and everything else, and then you talked about travel. I'm interested in looking at how people promoting wine fit themselves into the broader picture. We tend to say, I sell wine. I talk to readers of wine publications or whatever. What are you seeing in terms of wine allying itself with other products other areas of interest, be it fashion, be it lifestyle, and so on. And and that's obviously relevant to SEO. I'm interested to know your your thoughts on that. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I mean, I think one of the one of the smartest things I've seen, is so for example, do you know, is, it's like Stephanie Hoenig from Hoenig wineries who's also, the president of, like, I I don't know what it's called, like, the Napa cannabis Association or something like that. So so I think one of the smart things that that she's doing as an example is aligning her brand and also brand Napa with the growing interest in cannabis. So I think I think all of these, like, experimental and other other sort of interests that you can hop on to. In the case of Napa, there's this growing interest in in cannabis and, in cannabis tourism. So can you, expand your bubble to include that Great. You know, for some of the bigger brands, you know, I see them aligning with like formula one, race cars and things like that. I think it's, I think it's, you know, behooves brands to figure out how can they push themselves into new niches that have bigger audiences. So it could be fashion, could be music, what have you, but it's it's very important to to think strategically like that about who is the demographic, who is the audience that we're specifically trying to reach, and what are their other interests? And then align with those interests, make partnerships and those interests. Are there any more questions? Hi, Amina from Finland? Far away, from the US market. And I want to thank you for good insights, which are very, very much, I would say, legitimate also in our markets. I have a nineteen year old son, who I tried desperately to get into wine. He's not interested. He drinks wine, but we have it at home. But otherwise, you know, it's just he the competition of drinks or what to do in his, free time is so much larger than maybe in our generation. He's seen the world. He's traveled. It's not a new thing to wine and dine in a restaurant like it was for us. And I think it's very important for wineries to understand that that we do talk to a different audience. And, I think very much what you've said today is is also important in other markets. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Well, yeah. I think I think absolutely. We're just seeing that increased conversation, and interest from the younger demographics in all of these other categories spirits, you know, hard seltzer FNB, the other part of health hard seltzer. So I think it it behooves us also to think about those those formats. Right? So, you know, for some brands, it may make sense to go from, to add to your product line, right, into canned wines or canned spritzes or, you know, low alcohol wine based seltzers. I mean, if you have the ability to, experiment in some of those different formats, I would encourage that because it open up entirely new audiences to you that are maybe not going to develop into wine, like we've seen pre previous generations doing. One last question? Okay. So I get to ask then. So I I want you for one nanosecond to put on your nostradamus hat. Okay. And we have, right now, this trend of Jane Anson, as you had said, or Lisa Peralte Brown, becoming, quote unquote, independent websites for wine. Do you think this is financially sustainable? It's a great question. You know, I think that we are going to see upheaval continuing upheaval until we find some way for there to be sustainability, like real sustainability I don't mean venture equity and private equity coming into journalism and trying to change things around because we've seen that go disastrously in the states for a lot of publications. So what I'm talking about is, you know, I think we are we are going we are in the midst of a revolution in publishing and where that comes out, no one knows. I think a lot of people are betting on subscriptions, micro subscriptions, small, very dedicated user bases, but building those, at scale is, I mean, you know, making it scalable enough that you can support yourself and or contributors, is really tough. So I think it's it's gonna be, a time of a lot of change and slog. And, like, I keep on thinking, like, why don't all these publications independently come together and make a coalition a broader coalition of independent publications with one subscription, you know, price for six of the publications. Right? Like, maybe that's an answer. But I think I I do think it's kind of unrealistic to expect a large, large audiences coming to some of these very niche publications. So either the price is gonna have to go way up, or they're gonna have to find some way to scale. But yeah, I think this is like the big question. We're not only facing it as as wine media. I think the rest of the media space and specialty media is facing it as well. So it's it's a huge time of change and where that ends up, anyone knows. Okay. Let's give it up for Erica. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, EmLIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. 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