Ep. 1927 The journey frrom wine student to Master of Wine  | wine2wine Business Forum 2023

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The whole concept behind this is to understand the rationale beyond how the wines are scored. In this case, of course, we have, two masters of wine, First of all, let's give it a round of applause to the two master of wines, but one is still missing. I haven't a clue where he is, but I'm going to just leave it to Robert now so you guys can start. So that people can just, oh, this is yours. Thank you very much. Well, we're gonna let Andrea actually, Lenardi start talking. Andrea, what did you think? No. Seriously, what we're gonna I'm not gonna say very much on this. I'm not a master of wine. They are, but I have done quite a lot of work with Masters wine over the years. And what this is about is actually not exactly scoring wine. This is about analyzing wine in the way that you need to do to get your master of wine qualification, and that is not about saying, this is a ninety two. Oh, you're here. Thank you very much. By the way, we've already finished We finished with it. No. Thank you. So this is about as I said, it's not about whether a wine is worth ninety two points or ninety eight or eighty seven. It's about analyzing the wine using the kind of logic part of the logic that you've done through the academy here, but at a different level and a different way for the MW qualification. And I'm gonna hand the microphone now across to my friend, mister Gorrelli, who's gonna give you a little bit more information. I'm gonna hand it back to them. So here we are. We have no time, but we will be able to craft the tasting in a way that we will not need much more time. Then they allowed. So what I was, supposed to say here, I mean, it's a bit of an introduction because you need to know that, the very first day I got in touch with the Institute of Musers and Wine, it was the actual day that I met Andre Lonardi here sitting or I should say Andre Lonardi Mw now not sitting anymore, but anyway. It was at that point that we've been told that the NW is an individual study program. So you don't do not expect to have some lessons covering the full syllabus, not lessons giving you the full array of information that you've been asked for in the exam, but you should study or in your, I'd say, group or, individual space. But what I realized is that it is an individual study program. Yes. But you cannot expect to do it alone. And that was the reason why we found me Andrea and, and Pietro, which is the forthcoming NW due in, next year, February, I would say. We found ourself together to develop a way to tackle the NW courts, which using to be a way that was already a sort of a trail that we could go through. We needed to be trailblazers. We needed to become the ones that develop a new kind of structure, new kind of way to tackle it, and that's what this session is all about. Thanks, Robert, for having, you know, the opportunity to moderate us, especially me because I'm gonna talk too long any times. So what are the challenges, Andrea? So we've got people taking the MW exam all over the world. And originally, they were all in Britain and they were all in the London wine trade. At a time where they they weren't tasting wines from many countries. Today, what are the challenges for doing the master of wine qualification when you are in Italy or in another country, Andrea? For Italian student, the most difficult things is what actually what we discovered with Gabrielle and Pietro, and it is actually the fact that it's really difficult to find the wines. So it's not easy. It's better right now, ten years ago, eight years ago when we started was very different than right now. And that was an incredible opportunity for me, for Gabriela, for all the group that we were. I want to tell you what I really learned in the master of wine is that an issue can be an opportunity. A challenge can be transferred in something completely different. It's a way of changing your system. Your operating system is something that can change, and you can work hard in order to really change. And actually, the times that you take to do the master of wine is exactly the time that you need to change your operating system inside yourself. So what we are doing today is not tasting wines. Is using a technique methodology that you can actually use every day in your career, your journey when you design in which market do you want to go? Why you want to go in that market? Which reason push you in order to think in that way. Why I try to be agnostic when I need to judge something? In which way I try to push away bad energies or bad things that can get inside my mind in order to make wrong decision. So today, we have just three glasses, and we use three, three glasses just like a tool in order to learn a methodology of thinking. It's not the only one methodology. There are other methodology, but it is one that actually can work quite well in the wine business. Italian wine podcast brought to you by mama jumbo shrimp. So in the Masterry wine exam, you may have there are all sorts of different questions that you're asked. One of the questions, for example, might be here are three or five glasses. They have one thing in common, and you have to find that one thing. And that can be pretty tough. This is today is relatively easier. Relatively easier. So, Gabriela, what is the the question that everybody is being asked? So imagine you are sitting in the exam room. We are pretty much a hundred and sixty. So you imagine us sitting the exam at the Royal National Hotel in London, which looks like, West East Berlin when it was a bit of a, you know, it's It's very bad. I tell you. And you're not and you're not sitting as close to each other as you are. No. No. You are like two meters and a half apart, but you are a hundred people altogether. You're being served the same wine altogether. Twelve wines in front of you. And the first questions first question reads, wine, one, two, three are made from the same single grape variety, but come from different countries. So you're ready before tasting wines. You already have in mind what can it be. I mean, it's the same single grape variety, so no blend, and it's same for all the three. But three countries. So you already start thinking about what can it be. It can be many things at this point, but then you need to sort of cross evidences in a very, I would say, linear way. So two observations equals one conclusion. So if these are single, great variety, and I have two that are very I would say Ruby, to tend into Garnetti, very dilute color, very light color. And one that is much more colored, I should think about different approaches, different climates, styles, and also quality. And then I should go and dig inside the glasses to understand better. And as was, Andrea talking about, the way we developed our sort of system you need to imagine a huge amount of data that comes out from every tasting that you do. Provided you have the availability to the wines, which we didn't have back in the time. So that we had to be very disciplined in getting the most from any tasting that we were able to do around the world, saying around Europe or in the seminars that we attended. And grab the markets out of each wines and organize these markets. So the initial idea was to be very holistic. So start making a pile of sheets, a four sheets, and, like Andrea used to be doing, like, two months ago, which was still doing, working with a pile of sheets. Now, it switched to digital, and we are now figittal. And we developed mind maps. Press. I stopped. So I know. Before we go any further, there's something crucial that we might overlook. What are you looking at here? You're looking at? You've been told briefly by Gabrielli, and then he repeated more than once. You've got one grape, three places. As Andrea said, the number of people in that room of a hundred in London or wherever who actually didn't focus on the question and then came up with answers that could not possibly be right when you are asked about one grape from three places. So that's a very, very value. They've given you information in the question that you need to take on board. So I think that's a crucial thing to say. And now, Andreas is always on the question. Yeah. So Andrea, now talk a little bit about the whole mind map. Who knows about mind maps? Who uses mind maps? Not very many. So I think Andrea, would you like to explain a little? I said, what Gabriel let's say. So when you have an incredible numbers of data, you need to put things in boxes. And in each boxes, after that, there would be other information that would be organize it. So it is actually an organ a way of organized information. I was painting walls and paper everywhere, and Gabri was, No. You need to explain what I want mind map is. But a white map is is a journalism. But in simple terms, what does it look like for somebody to look at? They look like, a tube map. For me, white map is an Excel file where I can organize things. Oh, but when you Visibly, it looks like a a tube map, a a New York or a London. London map. Yeah. So you have colored lines that link you between different things. It's absolutely exactly like that. This is your way of I've looked in the web apps. I have my one way that was transferred in, and that way, it was an Excel file. An Excel file where I couldn't put in each pages. So in each column, what is pin on wire, how it looks pin on wire, how it tastes pin on wire, where probably pin on wire come from, how many styles of pin on wire you can get, how many quality levels you can get inside pin on wire, which is a commercial positioning pin on water? Who is drinking pin on water? Why they are drinking pin on water? In which occasion, probably, you must drink pin on water. So if you have to do that for every single grape variety. And you have to do that. You think that you have to do that for every single grape variety. It is exactly like that, but don't have to do that for every single wine around the world, you adapt a wine that you can find around the world and you say, okay. This wine is fitting with this category of wines. Maybe he's no pinot noir, maybe he's no, maybe he's not Sierra, but it looks like this wine. So let's investigate a little bit more. So it's a way of sorting and it is the first very important things that say, Charles have saved. First, read the question. Second, start to understand what you need and what you don't need in your journey. And so that's also just quickly, there is what I was saying earlier. There is the Sherlock Holmes line that I've always found useful in blind tasting, which is eliminate the impossible. What is left, however improbable is going to be the answer. So if if you actually go down the road and you're writing down something impossible, you will not get to the right answer. The only last thing I'm gonna say and maybe you may want to say something before we start. The last thing I want to say is that when we start this exercise, I would recommend that before you really think really hard about it, just write down your first impression on the paper in front of you because that may be a valuable thing to come back to. It will be a valuable thing to come back to because my worst results in blind tasting have been when I have argued, oh, myself out of a position. My first thought is it's x and then I start to taste and I do this and they, oh, no, it may be this, it may be that, maybe that, and I find myself a hundred kilometers away from x. And when I come back to the end, yep, it was x. Your first reaction is very I don't know if you both agree, but it's very often the one that you have to give a lot of value to. It could be wrong. But even when it's wrong, you need to think about why you had it because the reason that you had it even when it was wrong may be relevant to getting to the right answer. Yeah. And, what is important about today is that you are not here to understand, to guess what is on the glass. No, Gabri, we need we need just to build the flow out to get there. We might probably get wrong in the hand, but we can be very close to the final destination. And that is. Yeah. About that. Sorry. And I will be more positive in saying eliminate. No, to me, it's not about eliminating. It's about the first impression. And our first mentor says, if it works like a duck, it works like a duck. It looks like a duck. It is probably a dark. And therefore, it it is what you should be able to, distill as an information from here, and then not to be second guessing yourself or arguing with yourself, whatsoever. Having said that there are many ways to tackle a wine tasting, especially if like in the NW, you can go wrong and I repeat, you can go wrong for the right reasons. I mean that considering how you write and you should write like a lawyer. Oh, we know. Tastes like a detective you you quoted, Sherlock holmes, and write like a lawyer, since you write like a lawyer, even if you're not right in your final, sort of fondling, in your final, hence, where you might be finding yourself in the place where you are wrong, but you did the correct way to get into that wrong answer, which could be easily interchangeable with a, correct one. But effectively, what you have is the examiner who is saying, yeah, I could have gone wrong like that. Yeah, you know, looking at the color, smelling it, analyzing it, yeah, I could have gone there. And then last thing I'm gonna say, but it's it's maybe an obvious thing, but as we're tasting these wines, The sort of things that, to me, come back as always important. The aromatics, sorry, color. Is it a deep color? Is it not a deep color? What's the level of color? Some grapes are not going to give you particular colors that other grapes will. Secondly, the sort of acidity. You have different acidities, I think, in different wines. Thirdly, the sort of tannins. And to me, in red wines, white wines, it's the sort of acidity. In white wine, in red wines, it tells me that it is tannins are different. And you would say, okay, these tannins send me in the direction of, for example, cabernet sauvignon more than Granache. Because even a deep colored grenache, might look the same color as a as a Japanese Avenue, but once you get it in your mouth, that those tannins are going to be different. And those the acidity and tannins will both be relevant to the finish in a way that that hopefully were helpful. Lastly Oak, you know, what is the role of oak if there is any? If there isn't any oak in the wine or new oak evident in the wine that may be telling you something? If there is some, it may be telling you something. And of course, the quality of the oak may tell you something. If it tastes like oak chips or whatever, that's gonna tell you something in itself. So those are all elements that I would be advising you to have in your head when we're looking at these wines. Anything I've missed? I believe we should allow, like, three mints of total and absolute silence and focus to taste this wine, to go through this wine, and to build a first impression and a set of information that you can extract from this glass, and you can then cross with your knowledge to build an argument. So three minutes starting now. No. Andrea, you like to start the questioning, and we're going to look first at we've been told it's one grape variety. Anybody like to raise their hand and, shout? Yep. Sorry? Peenot noir. Anybody else? Any other thoughts? I'm not saying it's right or wrong. You say it's right? Okay. No suspense. Who did not think it was Peenot noir? Anyone. Be be honest. What did you think? Sitter? Any other thoughts? Any other suggestions? No grolash around? You think about Grenash? Yeah? Yeah. Grenash somebody. Any what was the other any any other grapes? So let's have a before we talk about Pinanhua for a second, let's just say, why is it not sit up? Well, Andre, you want to go? Or yeah. I will start by saying that if it is a single grape variety, it can be cabernet sauvignon, cabernet, Frank, Sierra pinot noir, Merlo, and Grenash. So we have six six. And after that, we we can start to sort something by the color. Probably cannot be cabana France because it's three countries. Yeah. Because we we won't say it's a three countries. Temperenew is possible, but Temperenew is not widely planted these days everywhere. For example, color, Temperenew might have worked, but not as across all the countries. So this is how the way you start to sort things. Could be also Nebula. But can you have a Nebula from three countries? No. Corvina. No. So let's go with this with the normal thing. So we sold cabernet sauvignon because normally has a very dark color. And I think also we can sort something else. Renache, since we have two color, two very pale colors, we start to figure out, you can start to think clearly with pinot noir merlot and grenache. So I would find out that So, Sarah, what we're saying is Sarah, this would be pale for Sarah. No. This is pale. Too much pain. Yes. For Sarah. So, Sarah, I would expect more color. And Sarah is violet. It's violent. It's also the. Yeah. And we haven't yet talked about the notes. We're just talking about the notes. So just by the color, we sorted and we finally end up with three wines, with three grape varieties that is very, very good. And we didn't taste the wine. We didn't smell the wine. So So why now let's say, in this group, we have Granache Malopinone smelling the wines. Why is it Pinanoa, not Granash or Merlo every day? Yeah. So when you have a variety like Granash or Pinanoa, you should expect different styles as you're displayed by the color, but also you go inside and you check nose by nose and you have very different profiles, but at the same time you have some commonalities. You always have that crunchy crunchy and crunchier small forest fruit around all these wines, and you have this ability to exude spices from oak or the lack of oak whatsoever. Plus, there is a fragrance character of the wines, all of them have this fragrant character. The first one might be a bit more austere and younger because you have that touch of VA volatility. You can feel that it comes, it hits on your nose. The second one is the one that is more overt. You have that tomato leaf, a bit of a cola bean. It has some plumper fruit. You should expect a sort of a pleasure tannins to it when when you taste. And the and the third one is the most extracted of them all. You have disability, and I will call it as not just complexity. It's a confluence of the flora character, the flora aromatics plus a lot of extraction. You see that is much more violent in the extraction. And you have darker fruit, red berries, also you have that underlying truffily touch already plus very slaty flinty touch, almost salty already on the nose. So that tells you a lot. I also expect pepper is one of the things I do get on Granash. I'm not getting here and the sort of plummy character of of Pino, I'm not re I'm sorry. Merlo is not what I'm getting here. So we know it's Pino noir. We've decided that. And the next question is can we work out which countries, three countries they come from? Now, number one, any thoughts on number one? And and if so, why? I will I will tackle the other way because, I mean, we all have an idea of pinot noir. We all have a archetype of what pinot noir means in our heads. And of course, we always learned to compare this idea to the real thing, so is there any of this wine that tells you that So I would say slammin in your face that this is a burgundian Pinanoa. So which is the duck? So did anyone have, as as as, Andrea said What is the duck? Which is the duck? Is there anyone think there is We're not saying whether there is or isn't, does anyone think there is a pinot noir on the table? Yes. I've got one hand there, yes, maybe. Which one do you think it is? Number one? Okay. Anybody any other guesses about a pinot noir on the table? Oh, sorry. Berg in the other Sorry. And it's a burgundy on here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a burgundy. Anybody name a burgundy. Number two there. I get number two actually as a thought. Now we're gonna tell you one of these is a burgundy. So which who hands up for number one? Quite a few. Hands up for number two. Most more hands and hands up for number three. The least hands. You see that? Very interesting. We'll find this as we go. What we'll tell you is number one is not from Burgundy. Right. Now you know it's not from Burgundy. Let's think about where it might be from and why it might be from. So what do we know about number one in style? Can anybody does number one have oak? Okay? No. No oak? That's good. That's a fact. At least not a beautiful amount. How big, rich is it? How light is it? Is it a cool place or warm place? Any thoughts? Cooler climate. So it's cooler climate. No oak. Exactly. Absolutely. You nailed it precisely because exactly what you said. Cool, fresh, not necessarily. Okay. Quality level. An ambitious. Well, as I say, not it's it's not the most complex or rich or deeper ones, but it's a really nice easy drinking pin on what? How can the rest of the room can get, to Aditi. So let's start by the style. This is a fresh, easy drinking, beautiful, bone dry. Bone dry type of pinot noir. So where we can find in the wine world, this style of wines. For sure, first, in Italy. Second could be a regional level burgundy. Dirt could be Chile, very difficult because Chile will be. South Africa maybe. South Africa maybe, but I won't consider. It could be California, New Zealand, not really. You know, it could be a Tasmane, Tasmane, yeah, it could be marlboro. But it would be much more of earth. You you need to dig into consideration the tannins. Here, the tannins are present. The wine is, as that touch of bitterness, So he did quickly exactly what we are doing now. He did because it's, he he's an incredible taster. So he's able to go to to to to to to to to to the through the system and really realize where this won't come from. But if we go around, we will find that actually a style of wine like this one we can find in North part of Italy, maybe North Korea cannot be German. I mean, Barton, you you can get some examples in Rheinh hessen, in Germany, and some possible, but not quite. Much worry affected by yoke, most of the time. And maybe you can find something like that in Australia. Yeah. But still, tinnies are not there. But but probably from Australia, they will be richer and powerful on the nose with much more fruity expression this is actually for the restraint and the complexity knows that he has. It's probably more from the old world. So if it is from the old world, we will finally sort and we will arrive that actually can maybe can be an Italian pin on wire. So this is exactly the flow to take and start to sort what isn't a war probably could not be. But if you because I make wine in Longedoc, if you ended up in Longedoc, for example, you would not necessarily be wrong. No. You'd you'd be at the logic would take you there. Especially if you take tackle that to the right quality level. Oh, so that's So second I'm aware of time. So the second one. You should go to the third one. No. No. No. No. Let's let's let's do them in order the order of the table. You know, think about how they answer it. No. We haven't given away any any answers. No. No. I see. So that's right. So number two, we know we know that at least one person in the room thinks that number two is burgundy. One person in the room. So why might it be burgundy and why might it be something not burgundy. So any thoughts? Is there any oak? Yes. We've got some oak. Yep. What else do we know about it? So there is oak spices, ripeness is there. The color is there. Is the color right for burgundy? Or what we have in our head when you think about a cotto wine? Is it there? Maybe. There's some richness of texture there, which says warmth to me. You have been a reality in the pilot? Yeah. There's a touch of breath to me that's confusing. That's actually slightly confusing my taste, but I'm That's the reason why it might be burgundy. But I'm putting that. Yeah. Exactly. But I'm putting that slightly to one side because actually it's not spoiling it enough to be to be a big problem, but it's slightly drying the palette, which would otherwise be, I think, quite rich and smooth. Two key elements that tell you where this wine come from. There is one element that is related to the nose. This wine has a very distinctive character on the nose. That tell you exactly where maybe this one can come from. There are two two three regions around the world that has this nose, this typical caller character that you can find. And this caller you can find in, for sure, in, California. You can find for sure in some, Italian parts. But since the first one is Italy, maybe this knot is not Italian, the second part is for sure Australia, yara, morning to peninsula. So you just sort that that the just a few parts. And the second element that is very important about this one is on the palette. Did you get any mineral character? Don't confuse with the efficacy that maybe you see you feel in the, in the upfront side of the palette. Also, are you familiar with Campari? I believe? Can you find Campari number two? A bit? The other thing is it's sort of the Australian thing. The Australian thing in Europe, I still always do get a touch of eucalypt. Sometimes that sort of element of character there, which I'm not necessarily getting here. So cola. Plash teranins. Yep. That is key. Flash rich. Mid of oak. The oak is quite prominent for the for the weight of wine. The oak is quite prominent. Some leafy character also from warm, high UV. So it looks that it come from an area where you have a high insulation, you can feel on the nose. So it comes from. Do we know? We've told you more or less, California. Right? Who in this room is surprised this is from California? Anybody who thinks that all Californian wines are rich and dark don't. So that's an important thing. And this wine actually comes from part of California, which is actually or the Repts California, which do tend to make fourteen and a half percent. Yeah. Very dark wines that or almost like Zinfandel. This is more than fourteen. And this wine doesn't have that sort of character. No. No. It's not from as as warmer place as as some of those, some of those wines. Sonoma, but not by the coast. I mean This is Petaluma Gap. Which is a cooler part of, it's a new recent AVA. So last wine, you will know where this comes from now. Right? You see, that's the reason why in this industry, you need to keep yourself updated. Now, burgundy, it's been since twenty fifteen from the real beginning of very hot weather, very hot vintages over there. You see the color, and I tell you, I can tell you that. This is the more mature wine that you have in your flight. So it is the one that should have less color, but in fact it has. The opposite. So it's a very hot vintage. That's the reason why probably I'm for sure this has a lot of color, but it's a it's cador, it's, of course, it It's at the edge of, the decoder bone, because it's a sauvignille bone. How do we get to sauvignille bone by looking at this wine from, of course, I know it's difficult. It can be paradoxical, but we have been trained also to say something like that the wine might be coming from a cooler area of the new world or a hotter vintage in the old words so that you counter balance your errors, you know, then you go down, you you find yourself a way to discriminate and to follow a path or another. But you should be keep working with, like, three ideal answers, which you balance from one evidence in conclusion to another, coming to the very last sentence where you confirm why you decided one of the third, one of the three option that you had initially. Could I just also say in terms of complexity, looking at one, two, three, it's a setting aside the intensity, the ripeness, and so on, where are we finding more complexity? I'm finding it here rather than in the two wines before. Secondly, however dark and rich and so on it is, think of those tannins. Those are to me, they're pino tannins, but they're really they're lovely soft rich tannins. And the structure to me is is more of a of a pino structure. So the we're kind of out of time, but I think the the crucial other point is what you'd be doing, and you would have longer as doing your we'd be looking at how the wine was made, which will include the reference to oak, the reference to any other things we might have thought were were involved. Secondly, we will be looking at the quality level of this wine, which would also involve elements such as complexity. And lastly, I think we're building how long these wines are gonna last. Yeah. How long would we keep wine one versus wine two versus wine three? And of course implicit in that is the age that we think the wine is. Gabriel, have you told people the vintage of this one yet? Yeah. We have three vintages here. So white number one is twenty twenty two. So the alto adige is twenty twenty two. The second line, the Petaluma gap, which we shouldn't say. I don't know. I mean, the site we can say. Sonoma is twenty twenty two, twenty one, sorry, in twenty twenty for the Sabigna Lebona Oclo. Pretty crude. Behind the tasting, I would like to tell you something that is probably more emotional, but is very, very important about the journey of master of wine. There is a very important message behind that say never lose your control. So try really to stay focused. And actually, if you stay focused, you will get the number three is burgundy because you are able to put next to qualitative values, you are able aspect, you're able to put the quantity of these values. And as Robert says there is a structure, there is a complexity. There is a mineral touch. There is a lot of things, but maybe just for the flower compounds, just for the aromatic compounds, and for the color, you might be wrong and say, no. This is not burgundy because it's too rich, it's too dark, it's too color it. But these are second element that maybe are related to vintage as Gabrielle is talking about. So in many work situation, life situation where we can be, we need really to put the right value in the different aspect that we are judged. And if we have the good balance, we will find out the good question. And this is a time this is a matter of concentration of three d b, dive inside the wine, dive inside the the task that you have in front of you and you will get the final answer. And, just because we are out of time, but, the point that Andrea was saying when we sat down here and I'd like you all to take away And if you look at his notebook here, which I can see, use this kind of methodology and indeed the mind maps and the else to actually think about all sorts of other aspects of your working life. I won't talk about your other life, but your working life. And analyze why why am I going to take this decision? What are the rights, the wrong, the logic, and then you work stage by stage, by stage, And your point earlier was that doing the master of wine study, for getting taking the exam, but in a study, changed your way of working as a business person. Yes. And Gabri always say something very nice that I really like. There is not just one master of wine. There are different master of wine. And everybody, it is shaped as was your journey, as was your back his background. So, we are different. We are totally different because a lot of things are in common, the methodology, the way we work, the way we think, But in in the end of the day, the background that we we have is strongly influencing our our journey. And I think that the three Italian guys, they were very lucky because they find out a group of the group of friends were the other people that were very different than actually I was, and I am. So Gabri is very different than me, Pietri is absolutely another type of person. The real beautiful thing is just to put differences together in order to make some special. The three musketeers. Well, that is the best finish I could have imagined. I mean, I'm fine with that. Can I say thank you both and thank you as an audience? Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italianline podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time, chi qing.