Ep. 2412 James MacNay IWA interviews Maddalena Pasqua di Bisceglie of Musella Winery in Veneto | Clubhouse Ambassadors' Corner

My father both at his estate in nineteen ninety five, and I was twenty three. And he asked me to join him in the adventure. And I said, of course, no, that I won't work with you at all. So he laughed a bit. And I said, okay. But please come to visit a the place because it's pretty beautiful. Okay. And we arrive in Mozilla. You have to imagine Mozilla is in sort of a non place, especially in that times. So I simply saw a gate opening, and then after a few meters, I I jump it in a forest. It's too natural with the rivers, hills, trees, animals jumping all around. And I said, wow, this is a dream. And so after a while, something happened in my heart. And I said, dad, I'm sorry to tell you, but, I think I will help you with this, and so he continues to laugh. And so I knew I knew that because you cannot resist to this nature, isn't it? It's beautiful. Welcome to the special clubhouse session of the Italian wine podcast. Listen in as members of the Italian wine community engage in fascinating conversations about contemporary wine topics. If you enjoyed the show, please consider donating through Italian White Podcast dot com and remember to subscribe and rate the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your pods. Hello, and welcome to the club house ambassadors corner. My name is Rosa, and I'm very happy to invite you to the Italian wine room on the club house app. Our club house has been ranking the top amongst the Italian wine podcast shows. The show's concept is to let the Italian wine ambassadors have the opportunity to interview their favorite producers. This is an episode that gives them a free hand to ask any questions to their selected producers. This session is recorded and will be released on the Italian wine podcast to reach more listeners and especially for those who cannot participate due to time zone differences. Our guest house today is James McNay, one of our Italian wine ambassadors, and also my dear friend. James lives in Piamonte's Western Alps with his wife, Chincia, and their son. They organize and run specialist trips for wine lovers and workers all over Italy. After fifteen years, owning a specialist Italian wine merchant and cheese monger in east Sussex, they decided to return to Italy and to their roots in the travel combining the best of both worlds, as well as hiking and cycling the vineyards, mountains, hills, and coastlines of Italy. James judges at wine competitions, consults, and write about wine. Today, he's going to interview much Delena Pascua Tibichelia of Mozilla winery in Veneto. So welcome James and Modelena. We are very happy to have you here today. It's lovely to be here. Thank you very much, Rosa. Thank you. So, James, before you start your today's interview, let me begin with our three ritual questions. So first of all, tell us, how did you discover the wines of mazeala winery? Well, I'm really looking forward to this conversation with Madelena. It's lovely to have her here with us. So how did I discover the wines of Mosella winery? I was introduced to the wise of Mosella by one of the importers I used for my Enoteca in East Sasssex. I've had a string of Amaroni that I had tried and never had much success with them. Some cheaper, some more expensive. Partly, that's because there was some average quality Amaroni in there, but also because the price of Amaroni can go a bit crazy, and, it can be certainly for my market. Some of our customers were priced out. So then I tried Madeline's and her winery is called Marcela and it absolutely, bold me over. I I really loved it. I felt it was full of character, extremely high quality, really distinctive. Amaroni should never be cheap and Marcela Amaroni is ever was not cheap, is not cheap, but it's a fantastic price the quality. And, since then, I've been delighted to offer it to my customers and have great success selling it as well. Alright. And there are many beautiful wines, and there are many beautiful wines in Bad Guila, So tell us why did you decide to interview Madalena exactly? You're quite right, Rosa. There are some fantastic wines in, lots of beautiful wines in La Pollicella. I wanted to visit Mozilla for a long time, partly because the place just looks so beautiful, partly because they have a a really lovely relay. Madelena seems a very interesting and lovely person. And, I was just interested to visit. So I went along this April, just gone with my friend and yours, Cameron Jones, maybe he's listening in Australia. He's another IWA and also an, an NW candidate. That's all going well, Cam. And I was really struck by Madelena as a character. She has great wisdom, a very charming host, a really interesting philosophy to her winemaking as well. The winery, the Relay, and Madelena herself all need to be. Shared with the wide world in my opinion. Alright. Thank you. And I hope Cameron will listen to this episode when it is released on the streaming platforms because we cannot see him today in the room. And before you start, We need to put a kind of frame to your today's interview. So please tell us what are we going to learn from this interview? What are the key learning objectives? So first of all, I know that there are lots of what's the right word newcomers that listen to the Italian wine podcast. People don't necessarily know much about Italian winemaking, but are interested or perhaps do know that can be a bit confused about the wines of El Pollicella. So we're going to go into detail about Val Pollicello winemaking in general about the grapes and the territory and the different styles because we know there are lots of different styles and each of those has a different name as well, which can be confusing. We're gonna talk in some detail because it's really interesting to me this question about natural wines, and how natural wines are made, what they taste like, and go into more, the more sort of prickly question about their value and whether they are what they say they are a lot of the time. I know that Madelyn has opinions about that. And also, just to share an audio picture of the Mocela Estache, which was just, I just found so beautiful and charming. We'll hopefully be able to go into some detail about that as well. Alright. Sounds great. Now it's time for me to mute myself, and I will give the floor to you, James. Have fun. Thank you, Rosa. Hey, Madelena. How are you doing? Hello. I'm doing well. Thank you, Rosa, for introduction. Thank you very much for joining us for this chat. So I've got a few questions. Let's start at the beginning, shall we? Tell us about your background. Where did you grow up? What contact did you have with winemaking when you were young? So I was born in, Verona, in Italy. So I and I live all my life here traveling a beach, but, basically, I always I spent all my life in Verona. A beautiful city. In the northeast, obviously famous for wife, for sure, but also for music, the opera, in the arena is a historical city, pretty beautiful and famous. Close to Venice between Venice and Milan. And I grew up there. I studied contemporary history, philosophy, and really I never had contact with my winemaking when I was young. My first glass of wine, I think I don't remember exactly, but I think I I tried when I was seventeen, eighteen. And even if my father was from the wine industry, he didn't take that much the wine business at home in that times. And so, yeah, I grew up like, a normally student of history in the city. It's fascinating. I remember you telling me when I came to visit your journey to becoming a winemaker and running your estate. It sounds like it wasn't an easy path. Could you tell us a bit more about that transition from not being in the or even associated with the wine industry to being interested and then finally having having a beautiful winery? So that is a long story when I try to make it short. I grew up in this family and as, I think the ninety nine percentile person, of course, we have some contrast, especially on the vision of life. So when happens, my father changes own life, and decided to be not, somebody in the wine industry, but somebody doing the grower, the wine grower. They both said his estate in nineteen ninety five, and I was twenty three. And he asked me to join him in the adventure. And I said, of course, know that I won't work with you at all. So I laughed a bit, and I said, okay, but please come to visit him in the place because it's pretty beautiful. Okay. And so I, I joined him and we were here. We arrived in Musela. And, you have to imagine Mozilla is in sort of a non place, especially in that times. So I simply, so, a gate opening. And then after a few meters, I I jump it in a forest. Supernatural with the rivers, hills, trees, animals jumping all around. And I said, wow, this is a dream. And so after a while, something happened in my heart. And I said, dad, I'm sorry to tell you, but, I think I will help you with this. And so he continues to laugh. And so I knew I knew that because you cannot resist to this nature, isn't it? It's beautiful. And so Mozilla is this incredible place, very close to the city of Verona, and that's not very common. And so it's sort of a miracle to have such an, incontaminated situation so close to the city. You have to imagine, palace, and then, every kilometer, there is a old house for the workers. The origin of Mozilla is in the fifteenth century. And then in the centuries, they add some houses for the workers who was working in the vines, who was working, for the hunting or for a different kind of a ticket in the crops whatever they want to do here. Then I joined them, but with zero experience of everything, because I didn't drink any, any wine. And I didn't do any, didn't know anything about agriculture. I studied history, and I was that, the student of that. And so I started to struggle a bit because at the beginning, my father has to reorganize the vineyards. The vineyards were abandoned since the seventies. So he had to do it back, and we were in the nineties. So the approach was more about the French style. Italian people, unfortunately, in the nineties, fall in love with this, agricultural thinking it was better. And they forgot that we had, millennials experience and vineyards. And so sort of they can't sell what what the old people did, and they start with the French system. Now we understood it is not a perfect one. So, in the way, it was reorganizing the the vineyards. It was around the world in Italy to learn and to try to sell to learn the, the business, how to sell what is an, grape, what is a wine, what is a wine making, and I have to say that I am fully in love with this very soon. More than a job, but beginning, was a passion. I was really passionate for everything. I had a lot of fun, so I was working hard, like, today, but, I had more fun in the past, because I had no responsibilities, so it was good. Lovely. What a story? And how do you mean that the French system? Do you mean the training? The French training system? Yes. Exactly. So the trial is, where we had the traditional pergola, because the trial is or the direction of trellies was, up to down, and, is not very good for our place because, we suffer for very strong storms, and so you can't spoil the soil. So it's definitely better to have terraces with pergola. And if our own old people decided to have this kind of system, it's probably because they already know, did the experience. So having the parable is definitely easier to be managed. It's better for the soil is better for human beings, is better if you have to work annually manually as we do. So now slowly, we are replanting in the, in the opposite idea, but, the moment that we still have, more than the fifty percent in trellis. And we try to manage it. We have new problems every year, like everybody in my, in my business. Every year, there is a new surprise. Something changing, something, challenging new challenge to f or to think about, and so that's it. I think it's a very important work that you're doing there with that conversion. So good luck with that. It's a long and arduous process. I'm sure. Yeah. It is. And, lastly, a big discussion was after a few years I was working because after I learned from many people, big people, important people in the wine business. Even if they were not that important, any famous in the nineties, but, now they are. I couldn't ask for any more to see the vineyards, the, the forest, my life, my workers, contaminated by a chemical, Viticulture. So my big contrast with my family was about the different sensitivity and consideration of what we had around about the kind of treatment that we have to do. So it took for me ten years to, convince my father. I didn't convince him the soul and in the philosophy probably, but I, at least, I convinced him for the quality results. After years and years of, discussion. In two thousand and nine, I introduced the biodynamic of agriculture, and I did it, completely under present and totally because it was already ten years I was studying about. So I was pretty strong and prepared to, get started. Everybody now is happy because the results are, really enthusiastic. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. The results really are. Excellent. Excellent. But, maybe the philosophy of the circle or that, we live in a circle of life where, but from back period to human beings, altogether, and our role as a human beings is just to be the director and not the owner. So we try to avoid the sensation to own something. But to follow with love everything in order to keep in harmony and in balance. Animals, bacteria, plants, human beings, work as everybody. That for me is the deal. The most important thing. And he's working. Yeah. Sure. Could you go into a bit more detail about the bacteria, the cultures that you've got? Cause I remember when we visited some tanks, some underground tanks with different cultures. Tell us where the idea came from and how that works. Yeah. Exactly. Now I'm in love with bacteria because I discover this process of fermenting and producing cells, producing bacteria from a guy in a event in the mountains, and I was super fascinated because it was sounding to me the same thing we are doing in, biodynamic. Biodynamic means, keep life alive or keep, live life. And so is, moving. Keep moving. Keep moving. That's the reason why we also have music in order to keep in vibration. Vibration is important because vibration means life. If you have vibration, you're alive. When you have no vibration, maybe you're ready for the next life, probably And so the bacteria are life. And, in order to keep alive life, I have to avoid the only thing I'm doing, still doing killing, that is the copper and the sulfur on the vineyards. We have to spray at the moment, even if I spray in a ridiculous and minimal quantity, I still do this, because I need to protect my vines from the mildew and the duidium, the two terrible, fungus that we have ready to in the beginning of the last century, we had this fungus that came, from US. And after that, we were in trouble because there are just few things can protect the violence from this. And so I try now with a different option. If I feel the room and so the leaves in this case are people bacteria. Maybe there is no space anymore for the fungus, to find his own space and be so aggressive. And so I try to think about this, how to kick to grip it on the leaves for enough time, which kind of, herbs and, let's say vegetables could be the best for this kind of fermentation and bacteria. And so I select the mix of legumes, actually the green manure I did the fermentation with Graeme and Or because, all the varieties I needed, I added the nettle and the lavander that ferment it for one year. In inside of my house, I have the one for the human beings to eat every day to make a better mic So when you add good bacteria to your intestine, to your microwave, you are more protector. You have as autoimmune system, you stronger, stronger autoimmune system. And so you live better, more energy and less time to recover from the flu or whatever, you're stronger. And it's working because, upon me, a lot of people around me is trying, and now they became addicted. And so, I still producing a lot for human beings, but outside, in the garden. I did a big tank, three big tanks where I'm doing this fermentation. And this year, I tried my first experience with this, and I have to say not successfully, under present. But this is normal because when you try new things, it's very difficult to have success. But I see I have a success of the fifty percent. And then this is encouraging me a lot to keep going. I have to probably add more bit of clay and a bit of oil in order to be more grippy, to help to grip, to the leaves. And now, so I am extending my experience to other people because this is the secret to share and, try to find new ideas, inspiration by the other people who is in the same, network where we are. And so we will discuss next Sunday. We will have a meeting altogether to discuss our own experiences on this, Maybe I have to add more informative water. I also have an experience in informative water to spray on the vines to help. So maybe beginning of the informative water, then the bacteria, and then adding some oil. So I'm curious to meet my friends and to try back next year with a different approach. I will keep them doing for five years, so I'm pretty relaxed on the results. How many years have we got left of the five? Was it just this year? You said you said you said? This is the first. Yeah. This is the first. You said it's an addiction. Well, it's a very healthy addiction, I think. Mhmm. Yep. It's great to hear such a collaborative effort with your neighbors and co growers as well. It's, it's wonderful. Good luck. Just as an aside, you see, you you play music in the vineyard. Do the vines have any preference to Yeah. Yeah. For sure. What do they like? They didn't answer me, but I mean, right, not yet, at least. But I, I'm sure, studying reading, but this is pretty famous. The old music, four hundred thirty two is the right music, to play to animals and plants because, we normally listen music at frequency of four forty, but is following more, the rhythm, the wind, the sound of the sea, the heart, They all create frequency at the four thirty two. That was the the old frequency. Everything before Verdi, the musicians was played in four thirty two. So I took that kind of reference to play music. And so it's, Mozer, for sure, Vivaldi, back. And then I also have in the afternoon, just to change a bit. A couple of Albohom being Floyd because they record the one Albohom in four hundred and thirty two. And one other of, junk or train because it did the same. And so in the afternoon, I play more of that in the morning, the classical music. And that's happened for six days on seven for three or four hours per day. That's absolutely fascinating. I saw the difference. We did an experiment that is very easy to do. You can buy on internet, a little tool where you have the possibility to put a sort of a Band Aid on the lever, and, then is in connection to this, little box. This factor is able to collect the movement of the lymph and translate this in audio file, midi, and then audio file. So you can listen the difference, in the lymph movement. When you play one, instruments or another, or if you do some strong noise, they have a strong reaction, or if you play nice music, how they follow the music on this movement. And so it's very fascinating. Is that an expensive piece of equipment? No. It's costed two hundred dollars. And and you you tie it around the plant. Yeah. You you put a you you say close to the plants, you attach with this band aid sort of band aid, the little box to the leaves, and, and, you play music, and you see the difference. Is amazing. It's really nice. Really, it's really nice. I'll have to buy one of those. Works for every kind of plant, so you can try it everywhere. Yeah. Flowers, plants are good. You can see also the difference between good plant and not than a not good plant. So you see the different kind of music they produce. How is poorer when they are sick. Also you can make a a very easy experiment. It's a bit struggling in a while, but you buy two identical little plant and you put one in a room, and the other one in the other room. And every morning, you pass in front of one of them and say, oh, are you beautiful? A lot of compliments and congratulations. And to the other one, no, you're bad, you're ugly, and you treat them very badly. And, if you resist to do that because it's now easy, after ten days, you will see the difference between one and the other plant. That's amazing. Amazing. Shocked me. I didn't finish the experiment because after ten days, I was sick to insult the plants. It's all plant. Yeah. Exactly. Because I see that the plants, it was not happy. A plant. So I said, okay. I quit. It was a joke. Yeah. I I said at the beginning, we can come back to your winery and your techniques and philosophies. But I did say at the beginning that we, for any beginners out there listening, we could take an overview of Val Pollicello wine making, because it's full of strange names. Can you just talk us through Madalena the different types of Val Pollicello that you make? So Oh, yeah. It's a very long. Do you have time? Yeah. Yeah. Just just a quick overview. By Polyciella is honestly pretty complicated because we have so many different wines or better. We have many grape varieties, but, in Mozilla, especially, we work mostly with four of them. This is the first confusion because Balicella is the name of the place, and not the name of, the grape. It's a blend of different grapes. Then Balicella is considered the name of the place, but also of the first wine we produce from fresh grapes. Then we have repasto. Repasto in Italian means pass it two times. And in this sense, we mean on the skins. So is the past the one time on these own skins for the normal fermentation because, when you have a red wine, you ferment with the skins together with the cask. If you have a white wine, you normally take out the skins at the beginning because the all the color is in the skins. So if you take the skins from the red wine, you will have a white wine. So we'll leave, during the fermentation, the joys with the skins to color them. When the fermentation finished after fifteen days, while puricella separated, the wine is separated by the skins and stay there waiting for the hand of, the amarone fermentation. That is four months later. So Repaster is a wine that we're is the Palicella waiting for the amarone skins. So when we finish the production of amarone, we move the skins into the Balpolicella tank. And so we'll leave the Marona skins in the Valporicella for other fifteen, twenty days in order to have a a richer instruction from the skins. And so we have a richer wine. Is the same with a bit of characteristic of amarone because it's, fermenting some time a bit, but mostly macerating with the skins. And so you earn color, alcohol, density, and, of course, complexity. So you move the skins, not the wine. Is that a rule, or is that your choice? No. Honestly speaking, it depends because I give a little squeeze. Yeah, it's a bit technical, but you can do the both, leave the skins inside. And, drop out all the the moroni, and then pour inside this tank. We normally take out everything, and then a little squeeze because it's different. A lot of a moroni stay into the the skins. We don't squeeze in the press, the max, as normally we do, but a little bit, just one, one atmosphere to be precise instead of two. And then we put in, the valve body channel, tank. That's normally the process, but could be done in the opposite sense. I live inside. I drop out the maximum of liquid I can of a maroon, and then I pour inside the baccholar. Then, I can discuss about a pastiment or pastiment is something that we invented. Two thousand years ago, at least, here. And exclusively, because we have the possibility local gray characteristics permit that we can dry them for three months. If you try to dry carbonate or merlot or syrah, laziraz, by better than other varieties. It's very difficult to get, to two months. And we need to dry the grape for three, four months to have the characteristic we have in our wines. So the reason why also the apartmento was born here is because, we have the grapes to do it so long, because you can easily dry every kind of grapes a few weeks, and you'll concentrate them too. But you cannot dry for more than a month because you remain with nothing or the grapes developed some characteristic could be even bitter. The Jewish could be even bitter. So the apposamento is something classical here to produce the amarone. Amarone is a wine that we produce, drying the grapes for three months, then we gently press and, we ferment for forty days, forty five during a Christmas time to the carnival. Normally, you know, in Italian, amaro means bitter. So, amarone is not today is the most important wine of the region in sense of fame, let's say. But, in the past, it was, considered like a mistake because amarone means, bitter wine, And the reason why it's called in this way is because it was no sweet. For two thousand years, they produce, the sweet wine of here is called. This is a pretty funny story because ricciotto means, wine from the hears, yes, hears, because, in my dialect, Rachel is the here. And this is because if you imagine our degree, if you have a visualization of a grape, you that there is a central body with two wings, and that two wings were called by my and the old man, tears. And so they did the wine only with the hears of the grape, the I'm getting a net to dry up for four months. So you have the naturally sweet wine. And you have to think two thousand years ago, they have not sugar possibility. They added some honey and the time, to the wine to make a bit less cedica and better. And, particularly, they have no any sugar apart in the fruit because they in the K, you know, in Disney's in that time. So to have a a wine naturally sweet without honey or anything else, so fruit was a sort of, miracle. And in fact, ricciardo was considered a luxury wine for kings, queens, and emperor because it was very difficult to produce, of course, low production. If you have to imagine to have a liter of ricciardo, you need to squeeze to collect five kilos of grapes or even six. So for sure is a very, let's say, difficult, expensive. And, I think, I explained a complicated, thank you very well. Thank you very much. It's always worth explaining. I think because this it is quite complicated. Just a question for myself. I've often wondered, great names, Corvina, Rondinelle, they're also birds names. Yeah. I mean, is there any connection there? Connection first is just because Corvio is crow. And, we have crows, and, around, especially in the morning, and they eat the grapes when they are ready. So the birds are perfect to know when the grape mature. And so they call the Corvina because it was black and it was with the crows. Corvina means a big crows. And simply, they gave you this name because it's a bigger than Corvina, the bunch. Rondina is swallowed to indicate another variety simply and also because as the the two wings are more standing than, the other two, there is, after that, the oscillator, the oscillator in my direct means a little bird. And the reason is because the bunch is so small. It's very, very small. Maybe you have in mind what is a petiverdo. Jose is our petiverdo. So, very dark color, very high acidity, very intense tannins. Exactly the three characteristic missing to the other three grape varieties. All the varieties varieties are very, Corvina, Corvino, are very pale, very gentle in colors, low acidity. When they're ready, zero, tannins, zero. Very, very few. And so, Zorita is a ingredient, let's say, to make a different complexity of our wines, our grapes. They actually are very, very, very, very, very old. In fact, at the beginning, we planned from the shop, let's see. And then in the last fifteen years, I'm just planting something, I found around, people having very old vineyards to have the old genes. So now we are replacing something I I had in my own place in Muslim Landinitis, and some other, because I have no any Molinara, for example, some old Molinara from my colleague, because I think they could be also the answer to be more resistant, if you are not a clone, but you have your own personal analytic may be. We can find some plants to be more resistant to the always the mildew and oedium that are my nightmare. Well, if I can imagine here. Well, thanks for that, absolutely fascinating overview of valpolicella winemaking. Talking about your estate, your winery, You said when you first went in, you saw the river and the woodlands and the wild animals. What's the name of the river? And the name of the river is fibio. It's a creek, maybe not a river. Yeah. Yes. Quite small. I noticed It was deep and fast flowing. Yeah. It is. Beautiful river. Because sometimes, when I say river people laugh, I mean, yeah, it's a river. It's a ten meter in a cent. Yeah. And am I correct in remembering that it supplies your swimming pool in the Relay. Is that correct? Yep. Yep. Beautiful. Tell us about the Relay now because the building is a very old building, isn't it? Oh, yeah. The Relay was the second business. We found on our path because, when my father finished the all the effort to buy the main part of veneers. We, we work on, twenty five vineyards, and he had the occasion to buy this courtyard. And he said, Madelina, this is a big effort, but we have to do it. It was definitely right because the court Jarda is a beautiful courtyard where they have a dairy business, let's say, and the house of the noble person was owned in this place is in Mozilla today in that time and sixteenth century was out of Mozilla because Mozilla's state became a Muslim state in five hundred actors since eighteen ninety. Before, was, Mozilla's state was just, hundred, two hundred actors. And the owner, the owner changed. Moselli family sold to this guy, Theresa, who was in love of this place, and it boasts the other two hundred hectares, around, included the place where I am now in the courtyard. This courtyard is exactly of this fifteen, sixteen century old. We have this, amazing, fantastic, stable. If you go on the internet, you can see that is I say it's fantastic, not because it's mine, but because it's very unusual to see such a big, stable for cows. And inside, it looks more like a church than a stable. So we had this lock to be able to renovate this building in, our cellar. So now we're in the past, they kept the cows. We keep, is the restroom for the wine. Outside where they keep the hay. We now transform in our drying room for the grapes and a bit of stock. And then we keep our wines in cement mostly. Oak, of course, barrels bigger between three thousand and five thousand liters. And a lot of different, kind of material like, cement, in eggs shape, or we have one in, one egg in porcelain. We have some amphoras, and my special idea, them pretty proud of. We have some marble stone tanks. I designed these, tanks using local marble, Mar morosa de verona, red marble, because red marble is composed in, calcar and red clay. That is exactly the same composition of my soil. In my place, we live in a calcutta situation. And the percent with some red clay, we have no buzz out anywhere, even not a gram. Even if we have some volcanic area here closed, so we didn't receive any, any piece of basalt, at all. So this is conquer. And so my idea was to put back the wine in the same atmosphere where they grew up. Also, it did, different kind of shape, like the sphere, like, eggs, like, something where the wine can, self moving. Always, we are back to the consideration of everything is here like living beings. Wine is included. So one is alive and is vibrating and, it needs to keep moving. If you consider a hag, you have two volumes, one smaller on the top and one bigger on the bottom. These two different volume created two temperatures possibility. So if it's cold, you have, colder on the top and warmer on the, on, the bottom. And this is enough to create, a movement. A cell, a physic is physic for the different temperature. The one is keep moving. To regulate, you know, because it's a physics stuff. And so we create these eggs and to keep the wind moving. We create a sphere that is moving, in a spiral way. And all our tank or barrels are done in a way that the wind keep moving. To keep him alive and also to reduce the filtration and, always the same concept to keep alive. A vibration is, important. We need to vibrate to be alive. So it's not possible to think about something square because there is no movement possibility. Also, the square is not natural. Absolutely fascinating. And and it be you're right. The marble egg is absolutely beautiful. It really struck me when I saw it. How many labels do you produce? Typically? This is a difficult question. How many do you produce this year? Yeah. Because I'm trying to wake up in the morning and say, I would like to do this wine, and I talk. Let's say that we mostly work with, eight labels. Then the other experiments, maybe, when I do two hundred bottles, I don't consider it, but Which was it the eight? Can you quickly list them? Yeah. So is, Garganaga, the white variety of verona, to be more famous as the soave, but we are not in the soave area. And so we call it Gerganiga, and that is going into the marble. Then we have a pinot blanc, then we have sparkly in chardonnay, Emily, a pet nut. It's simply just to have fun, nothing serious. That's delicious there. Yeah. I love it. Then we have a burrito. We have a burrito. I'm Aronnet. I'm Aronnet Sernsetitoto special edition. And, we have now a couple of products in, one liter bottle, just to be very fresh, trimina, and, Merlo. No, Richard. Of course. Sorry. I I forgot the grandfather. Yes. Of course. We also have ricciardo. And we serve this wine, also here in our relay. It's a whole agritourismo, but, we don't have restaurants. So just a bed and breakfast service. So the rooms are renovated by my mom with a good taste in my opinion because he's respecting the age of the place. So everything is done in the old way, but renovated with the nice material. So we just use natural material, like, silk cotton of linen, we are plastic free winery. There is almost nothing now remaining plastic here because this plastic is, melding around in, our body, in our brain, our self everywhere. So you can even recycle, but the best way to avoid plastic is not buying the plastic. So we try to reduce, like, smacks everything in plastic. And so you can enjoy the time here in our spending your time, going, to the river, going, to the forest walking, or walking around the green garden, or in the swimming pool and join the wine tasting, the aperity we offer this kind of, lot of wine tasting, lot of wine tasting people like here. Nice. Wine tasting is very important, fundamental to it. I did say at the beginning that we would talk about natural wines. I was struck when I was with you. You were quite dismissive of some winemakers who make what they call natural wine. It's just an excuse for making bad wine. And that's definitely because I've had mixed experiences, let's say, with, natural wine drinking. Could you tell me what your feelings are about natural wine and the natural wine movement and don't hold back. Oh, yeah. So the fact of natural wines is pretty interesting because possible natural wine cannot be natural in scents. If you live naturally, is going to be vinegar. But, of course, we mean for natural that the production is, without any kind of chemical or addition in the vineyards and in the cellar. So for natural wines, we mean, clean agriculture, nothing to kill, nothing chemical, and, mechanical solution for the weeds, zero pesticide for any sector. In biodynamic, we also encourage the regeneration of the soil. We have any almost going around to keep in balance the system. So the sheep are going during the winter. In the vines to eat the grass and then deliver the dankies stay around to keep on the control of the forest. The bees are there. The chicken are in the vineyards only in some months. Because in April, the box is pretty interested to my chicken. So I put back in the big house they have. And in the cellar, nothing. In the cellar means that you have to follow the fermentation with a lot of attention. But honestly speaking, when you get in the vineyards, such a natural, conduction, and we are super, super, super, super into the soil regeneration. So for us, the soil is not soil, but is mother earth. Is completely different. So we don't compress the soil with the tractor and the percent. So we just work on the fifty percent of the vineyard in order to let the fifty percent and not compress by the tractor. And, we plant every year agreement order many, many seeds, like, legumes, mustard plants, many different kinds of clovers, some, eat, some flowers for the bees in order to massage the soil. When you massage the soil, you create air. And air is the most important thing you need to leave, is the first thing you need to leave. So our job, we are very concentrated in giving air to mother earth. Mother her having air is able to keep more water. Keeping more water and having the hair, you can have a lot of bacteria and fungus and insect and worms. And so, mother herself, massage herself with this, and this is also reaching of a lot of food for the roots of the plant. So we never force the plants to have some food, but, we make mother earth in condition to give the food that they prefer to each one because It's very important also to consider the individuality of the plant. Every plant as our, our, our human beings is different as having different, needs. And so it's just mother earth can understand the perfect needs of each plant. And so we work a lot on mother earth in order to have a better result of other plants. And you know what? So I can just say, work it with a lot of enthusiasm and some keep going very precise by a dynamic method because it's working. I'm having a lot of good results. Then and this is the natural agriculture, let's say, even if we still have the tractor. So we need to have the tractor in. So in the cellar, we simply ferment the grapes We follow-up all the process, in the different tanks, cement, and marble hook. And the ability of the winemaking is to understand when is the time to move the wine in another place because maybe that is, could create some, taste or smell or when to separate the skins from the wine in order to avoid to have it too tiny or without dirtiness, we need to have a respect for the wine too. Not simply that you live there because it's natural. You have to be lot of cares in timing, and in understanding different development. You know, maybe there is a different pH or a different temperature outside and the fermentation is shorter. You have to be there moving the skins because it's important to keep the skins wet. This kind of attention makes, natural wine. Plus now, they consider natural wine also when they don't add any sulfates at the hand. This is a very long argument because now sulfates is the enemy of the words, but nobody considers it in a normal a bottle of wine. I mean, not when they exaggerate in in the wine industry, but in a normal bottle of wine, there is, less quantity of solvits than in a dry apricot, for example, or in the potato, who is it? In a packet of crisp, Yeah. Thank you so much, Madeline. I want to say that the industry is taking these ideas as something new, but it's actually timeless what you're doing, eternal. So many congratulations on your results, and if anyone didn't guess, in love with your winery and these date and your beautiful countryside. So thank you so so much. We're just about out of time. Thank you again, Madelina. Go and open a bottle of your Emma Roni now. I will have a bottle of Emily, this sparkling one, because it's so hot. I need something cold. Thank you very much. For this opportunity for the questions. I really enjoy the time we spend together. And maybe, my speech is less enthusiastic than when I can speak in person, but, I hope, people and you could be back here and see the news. I'll be sure to. Okay. I'm back too. So thank you, James, for all of your questions, and thank you for inviting Madelena. And Madelena, thank you a lot for such in the discussion and all of your answers. Thank you for this possibility, Rosa, and for organization. Thank you. Because I feel very proud of this interview for your consideration. So, thank you. And thank you again, and thank you again for your time because clubhouse recording sessions. This is the hardest one to set up the interview. And I'm not going to add up any questions. I think today's conversation was already very in-depth I guess we are ready to finish. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thank you. Listen to the Italian wine podcast, wherever you get your podcast. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italianline podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, and publication costs. Until next time.