Ep. 2431 Robert Maggi interviews Nicola Biasi of Nicola Biasi Consulting | Clubhouse Ambassadors' Corner

You know, there is a a joke that we say that, in Italy, we are, sixty millions of Italian national soccer coach and also sixty millions of winemakers because everybody know about wine, even if it's not true, of course. And, when you start to speak, something different that is not Sangevese, it's not Bruno, it's not Ribolajala, in Frioli or Amaroni in Vanato. They say, no. No. No. This is something new, and wine is, something that is, very connected to the tradition, and so we don't want it. Welcome to the Special Clubhouse session of the Italian wine podcast. Listen in as members of the Italian wine community engage in fascinating conversations about contemporary wine topics. If you enjoyed the show, please consider donating through italian wine podcast dot com, and remember to subscribe and rate the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your pods. Hi, everyone. My name is Beatrice and welcome to Italian wine Clubaus Ambassador's Corner. Our clubhouse has been ranking the top amongst Italian wine podcast shows. The show's concept is to let Italian wine ambassadors have the opportunity to interview their favorite producers. This is an episode that gives them a free hand to ask any questions to their selected producers. This session is recorded and will be released in Italian One podcast to reach more listeners and especially for those who cannot participate due to time zone differences. Our guest host today is Robert Mady, born in Pulia, and now based in cardiff, Robert combines southern Italian passion with British entrepreneurial spirit, a qualified in Italy international wine ambassador and W set level three graduate. He has extensive experience in the sector. Including time with the award winning Australian winery, Jim Barry wines. Over the past ten years, he has focused on promoting Italian wines with his company wines and wines. Building bridges between producers and consumers and expanding awareness of Italy's diverse vaccine. Energetic and curious Robert is always on the lookout for the next great discovery and eager to share it with others. Today, he's gonna interview Nikola Biasi of Nicola Biasi Consulting. So, Roberta, how are you doing guys? Very well. Thank you. How are you, Beatrice? Fine. Fine. It's a little bit hot in Verona, but that's fine. How are you doing, Nicolaola? Very, very well. The sun, the the weather is sunny here in Frulli. I'm in Frulli right now, and it's the perfect, weather for, the ripeness of the grape. So I'm happy about that. So Roberta, are you ready for our three reasonable questions, sir? Yes. I am. Perfect. So how did you discover Nicola Biasi Consulting? Okay. So I first met Nicola in Belgium, actually, at a wine tasting. I tried his wines, and a brief chat with him, and it was love at first sip, really. A few months later, we started working together here in the UK. Wow. That's amazing. So tell us, why did you select Nicola as your guest today? In a few words, Nichola's experience and knowledge is truly fascinating and in his incredible work. He's doing with PV varieties. Really deserves to be shared with with our amazing wine community. You're right. What are the learning objectives that we should expect from this interview? Okay. So today, we'll be learning about nikola's Biasi's pioneering work in sustainable Viticulture through PV varieties, what they are and how they can shape the future of Viticulture. We'll explore the challenges and opportunities of working with non traditional varieties in Italy and how these varieties are received in both Italian and international markets. Wow. That sounds great and so interesting. Okay. It's time for me to mute myself and turn the mic over to you, Roberta. Have a nice interview, guys. We'll hear us later. Thank you. Thank you, Visisha. Thank you. Okay. So welcome, everybody. Today, I have the great pleasure to interview Nicole Abiasi. Who, apart from being an incredibly talented winemaker, he also happens to be a generally nice guy. And I feel like every time he meets, I'll learn something new by just chatting to him. And this is exactly what I hope to achieve today. So, Charlie Cola, welcome to the Italian wine podcast. Hello, everyone. Robert, thank you so much to ask me to join you for, this podcast. No. No. It's a pleasure. I feel like, everybody I know and I meet in in the wine world, I always now tell them to to go and taste your wine and and go and see you and and find you in in Prrentino. So, no, it's it's an absolute pleasure. And I guess before we start, I have to ask, you know, reproach in the harvest time. I know we mentioned a little bit about the weather, but what are your thoughts on on this is harvest? I'm pretty happy about, the seasons and how it's, it's, it's going right now because we have, in May with a lot of rain, and so he'd help us to grow the bath and also or the berries. And, okay. You know that, it's so important the last month before the harvest. So fingers crossed, and, we wait for an excellent harvest. Good. Good. Exciting. Okay. So should we start? Yes. I think we'll start with the basics of everybody. It's eager to know what are Piwi varieties and how did you first become interested in them? Piwi variety is, It's something new if we are talking about Italian white makers, Italian producer, but they are not really new if we are talking about Europe and especially if we talk about Germany. Pv variety are hybrid. So it's, a cross. They are cross between the European vines and usually the Asian varieties and why we make these hybrids with the this cross because, we keep the resistance to the disease from the Asian ones and crossing them with the European ones, the European vines that give us the quality of the berries and then the quality in the wines, we can have a new kind of wines that keep the same quality of, the traditional variety that, all of us know. So could be San Luis and Abiolo, chardonnay, merlot, or whatever, but these new vines are very strong in term of the resistance to the fungus disease. So it's really something very important if we talk about, sustainability and the the environment. Okay. And I think it's good to point out. They are not actually immune, but they are very resistant. These varieties. Right? You said these fungus diseases. Right? Yes. Correct. This is very important because in the past, some producer think that, these varieties, the p variety are immune to this disease. But, this is, not correct. They are a very resistance, depend of a variety, for example, soviet agrees, is, very, very resistance. Sometimes you can go to zero treatments in one season, but, it's not normal. It's, typical, the average number of treatments that we have to do with the PV variety could be two, three, or four per year, per season. Okay. And we'll definitely look at, later on at the sustainability and the number of treatments and and so on. So how did you first become kind of interested in in these varieties? What was the first approach that you had with the PVE variety? If I have to be honest, when I decide to plant, my first vineyards in, Trentinaldine on, where my grandfather lived, and, I was looking to produce a high quality white wine. And, I wanted to find, a variety and, to produce a wine that could age, very, very well during the years with the bottle aging, because I believe that, the quality of, wine is not just how good is, when it's young, but also how it develops during the bottle aging, And so I wanted to have, vines that, in their genetics, have something strong in term of the characteristic of, the botology development. And so it shows your monitor your monitor comes from, riesling, and, it's a PB variety of course, and so these two factors. So the riesling characteristic, the riesling genetics, and also this, new idea of agriculture. So use variety that you don't need to spray too many times during the year was something for me very, very interesting. And, I tested, a UNITER from, from Switzerland, because when I planted in two thousand and twelve, your heater was not, permitted here in Italy, but, really, for me, it was something new and, I wanted to try to make something different, taking care about the environment where, I grew up when I was young. Sure. Very interesting. And, of course, you mentioned you weren't allowed to officially plant you're needed. And, you're often being called a pioneer in Italy for, for working with PV varieties. And from planting your own vineyards, then you founded the Nikola Biasi Resistente network or Larete Nikola Biasi Resestente. And how did this network come about? Was this always in your plans to create a network of small producers that championed these varieties? When I planted, Janita at my place, I didn't think about, a network, a network of a producer, but, my project, vendor, and I was really, really focused in terms of quality of the wines, because I believe that, people is drinking good wines and not sustainable wines. Then if you produce a very high quality wines, and you are also sustainability is the perfect match, but first of all, we have to produce quality wines. In the past, winemakers, wine producer probably didn't know how to grow these vines, how to vinciate the the grape of TV variety. And probably I'll, be the first, to be really focused in terms of quality, not just to produce wine from PV variety, but I wanted to produce high quality wines from PV variety. And when I release, the vendor and I, on the market, the quality of these wines, I think that, was the goal for my project and the other producer that, planted, P. V. Variety, and they tasted in my own wine, they started to call at me to be advising by me, with the Nicarbiasing, and so I started to help different pro wine producer to increase the quality of the APV wines. And then after that of, two or three years with other, five, producer from free willy Venice and Trentino, we decide to start to to really work together with a network resistant to recovery where we promote the wines, but also we work, every day to increase the quality of our PBWise. And that's, what you just said before, you know, people don't drink sustainable wines. They they drink quality wines. It it's something that really struck me when when you first mentioned it to me, and I totally agree. It's true. People, you know, a a more a glass of wine is a moment of pleasure. So you can be as sustainable as you want, but, at the at the end of the day, it needs to be enjoyable as well. So let's let's move on and talk a little bit about sustainability as you mentioned it. In the last few years, there's been a lot of talking about natural wines, organic wines, loans of engine wines, biodynamic, you name it. How do pee wee grapes contribute to a lower environmental impact in in Viticulture? Practically. But I think that, if, we are really focused on what is sustainability in, in Viticulture. So it is, of course, the carbon footprint, the water footprint, and, the idea to reduce as much the chemicals that we use, today, the PV varieties are, the best solution possible to make, a truly sustainable Viticulture. Why? Because, is the only way to reduce the number of the treatments that, we we have to do during the season against the, peronospora and the idiom. And, you know that, the all the producer have to spray usually, copper and sulfur against the fungus disease, because if we don't do that, we are not going to pick the grape in September because we lose all the production And, usually, there is not big difference if you are organic or no. But, in the north of Italy, you have to spray at least fifteen, fifteen, times per year, And every time that, we go in the field, the inconvenience with the tractor, we produce carbon footprint. We produce the CO2, and we increase our carbon footprint and, we need, at least two hundred, two hundred and fifty liters of water every treatments that we make in one hectare. So it's very easy to understand that if we go down from fifteen or twenty to two, three, four, or five treatments per year, we reduce a lot. We have a certification in one of the winery that, is in the project that is in San Antonio, Alba Fiorita. We are in Frulli close to the board of Vaneto, where we have, both the PV variety, but also the traditional variety with the, same training system, the same density. Everything is exactly the same. And, in one here, we reduce the carbon footprint of the forty percent and the water footprint of seventy. So these are numbers very, very strong and big. And there is no organic or biodynamic that can do that, right now. So I really believe that, this is today the best solution. Then we will see what happens in the future, but today, b variety is, the best solution. And now that we're finally understand how to make the verification and also we started to plant this variety in a very good places. Because in the past, we had, on the market, and we tasted sometimes bad wines from PV variety, and the people think that, the quality of these vines was, lower than, the traditional ones, but it was not correct because the problem was, that, the way makers didn't plant these vines in good places. Because, in our mind, we think that, if this variety are resistant to the fungus disease, we can plant not on the top of the hill, but on the bottom in a very wet places, in wet area. But, if, We have not enough sun, and the grape, didn't find the ripeness. We cannot make good wines, but it's the same thing with San Giovanni or Merlo. So it was, our mistake we did, these mistakes, and also we didn't know how to make the winemaking. Today, we know heat, and we can make high quality wise. That is so important. Absolutely. And and, obviously, we won't go into it now, but I know you're doing a lot of work as well with when it comes to identification in in using the right types of yeast and very kind of geeky stuff, for winemakers, which only proves that you are trying to reach the the the top quality used in these great varieties, which which obviously is great. Obviously. Yes. It is so important because, sometimes, the people speak about, I don't know, the winemaking of TV variety. But this is mainly wrong because, we don't speak about the winemaking of the traditional variety because, the sovigno Blanc, we work, in a different way of Chardonnay, for example, or from a Trebiano, Sangiovese. I'm not going to vinciaga, the sangiovese in the same way of Cabernas Vignon. So also for the PV variety, we have to go very, very focused on the characteristic of the single variety. Today, in Italy, we have, thirty six different PV variety, Hello, for the cultivation, and so that we can plant. And, every single variety has to be vinificated, in, their own way, and also it's important the kind of wine that I want to produce. And the last thing is that, is also important to plant the right PV variety in the right place. For example, UNITER works very, very well if we are located in a cold place. And, sovina Greece, for example, works very, very well also in a warm place. The same is for sorrelli that works very, very well in the warm place. So it's so important to plant the right variety in the right place. But at the end, it's exactly the same things that, we do with the traditional variety. So there is nothing different. The only problem in the past was that, the winemakers didn't know how to work with these varieties? Yes. Yeah. And hopefully things will change, you know. I see, a lot of producers are slowly getting interested in in these varieties. And I'm sure it's, you know, eventually, the it will become the future of iticulture one way or another. Before we move on, I just want it to you. I know you mentioned Alba Fureta, the winery. I I just want to really recommend anyone who's listening to to go and visits, visit them in in friuli. They have a lovely advertisement as well. Be wary of going out for an operator with, you know, we had a very quiet one last time. Yeah. Alba Firita is, one of the winery that, started the project to resistently in Calabiasi. And, just to give, give you an idea where in Latizana, we have, a very sandy soil there, and so we make a project about, the wines that we wanted to do. Because, we knew that, we have a a sandy soil. We knew that the weather is, pretty warm, maybe hot during the summer. So we knew that, we had to pick early the grape to keep the acidity higher as possible. And in the same time, we wanted to make wines that works very, very well, in the Agriturismo. So we decide to plant Sorelli and sovignon kratos with a specific kind of rootstock that help us to keep the acidity as much as possible that warm area was not really good for the acidity, but working in that way, we can keep the freshness in our wines. And so the project, the wines, mom, and Sophie works very, very well. And just to give you an idea, in the past, all the red wines of alba furita comes from traditional variety in Merlo and Cabernet, Frank, but, we are so happy about the PV variety that two years ago, we take out all the cabernet franc, and we planted a PV variety from pinot noir. Amazing. Amazing. I think you need to be a little bit brave when working with PV varieties, and and all of the producers I've met from the network have, you know, a little bit of that courage, you know, to to go the extra step and removing, you know, traditional varieties and planting these PB varieties. You know, moving on to the next question. Many I know many listeners might associate Italian wine with tradition. We we have so many varieties. Each region is so rich with this heritage. How can you balance how do you balance innovation? You know, if you wanna say innovation by planting these varieties with Italy's deep rooted wine heritage. It's not easy. It's not easy. Special because, in Italy, we are, really, really focused on the variety. And sometimes we take care more about the varieties than the terroir, then, the place, then, the vineyards in term of location. But, I really believe that, if we are not going to change, something in our approach to produce wines. We are not be able to produce, quality wines in the future because, the climate change is, is present and is, Yeah. It's really. I have every here is, stronger than, than the previous one, and so we have to change. We have to do something. Of course, P. V. Variety are also an idea to do something better for the environment going down of the forty percent with the c o two and save the seventy percent of the water, but, is also an idea to change the variety that we use, to put in the glass, the best wine possible from that area. And my opinion, this is very, very important. In Italy, in the last two years, Everybody talking about the climate change, say that we have to move our vineyards, in the north, or, going up in term of altitude. And, I'm a big fan of Bountaine wines, but this is not the solution in my opinion. This is the solution just on the books, for, I don't know, a university, but, for example, If I am a producer in a Tuscany in Roseto, how can I move, and or transfer my vineyards up in the north or happen in terms of altitude? I should sell everything to someone and then, transfer everything, my family, everyone's in Switzerland. For example, this is not a solution that we can really do and so my idea is that in the future, we will have to plant varieties that perform better with the weather, with the sun, with the rain, with the temperature that we have today. So what I think that if, where, San Jose works very, very well, forty years ago, Probably San Giovanni is not the variety for that area for the future. So Sure. We have to think about the varieties because the varieties, the vines are so important in term of winemaking, in term of, because we need a variety that works very, very well in that area, but it's not important to use the same variety that, my grandparent used. Is important to use a variety that works so well in that area today, and also because the terroir has to be more important than the variety. Because if it's not, we have a problem because we speak that Italy is so important for many terawatts, many hairs. But if the variety is more strong than the terroir, I think that, the future of, the Italian wines will be very, very difficult. But I'm pretty sure that, how our terawatts are more strong than variety, and we will have just to change varieties planted the ones that perform better with the the climate that we have today. Of course. And I know we spoke about this before, and you're not saying let's remove all Santreviso tomorrow and plant PV varieties in in Montalcuno, by all means. It's gonna take time. It's a slower process, but we have to start, I guess, somewhere. And especially the bureaucratic side of things. In Italy, it can take a long time. So it's better that we start moving. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's not, north in term of bureaucracy. It's not easy because every single operation had to allow it, a new variety and also solve for the PV variety. For example, in Tuscany, no one of the fifty six PV variety that we can plant it in Italy are allowed in Tuscany. So today, a producer from Tuscany cannot plant PV variety. And, this is really a pity because, I think that, if, we can plant PV variety in Emilia Romania, I don't know what could happen, what is so different if we plant them in Tuscany? I think that, we should, leave, the producer to decide if they want to plant this variety. And, of course, that that is is business. If they are going to make good wines with good promotion, good marketing, they will sell the wines, and so they were right. If they are not going to make good wines, it doesn't work, but it depends of, of the winemakers, is, is too difficult if, also the bureaucracy is, against the innovation. But today, I'm not talking about, the pivot variety, the problem about innovation is, everywhere, in the Italian, wine world. For example, I bought a Venus Limos in Germany, and I can spray with, a drone. So more, separately for the workers because we don't need to go with the tractor in the field. So it's also more safe for, our collaborators. And in Italy, it's forbidden. And the question is why? Because, the problem, talking about the law in Italy is that, with the drone, maybe the spray that you do can go close to the neighbor or moving with the hair, but, the new drones work so close to the vineyards that, probably, they are better than the classic treatments that we make with a tractor. So we really have, to change our mind also in terms of bureaucracy and try to do the best things for the environment and for the quality of the wines because, you know Robert, better than me that this moment also for the market is not easy. And so we have, really to make the best wine possible. And, also, the bureaucracy has to help us to put the all the producer in the best condition to work and to make quality. Yeah. Absolutely. I agree. Then, obviously, we'll we'll move now onto the wines because, it's bureaucracy is a little bit boring. What have been the the biggest challenges that you faced introducing your wines, the PB wines into the Italian market? I've tasted I think all of the wines that you produce with the network, one way or another, they're all really good wines, exceptional wines. You know, there's nothing bad about them. They are really interesting wines to drink both for a wine lover, that a non wine lover, So what has been what are what's the biggest challenges that you've you've faced? Ma, the big problem that, I have is, to find a way to hop in a bottle and put the wine in the glass. Because after the customers, the wild lovers, taste the wines, there are no problems also to sell them. But, if you just speak about the PV variety, is, a difficult name It's something that the people doesn't know. In Italy, we think, that, you know, there is a a joke that we say that, in Italy, we are, sixty millions of Italian national soccer coach and also the millions of winemakers, because everybody know about wine, even if it's not true, of course. And, when you start to speak, something different that is not Sangevese, not Bruno, It's not in Frioli or Amaroni in Veneto. They say, no, no, no. This is something new, and wine is, something that is, very connected to the tradition, and so we don't want it. And also because the other problem is that, when we speak about the hybrid, the people think that, these new varieties comes from, something strange in a laboratory, or they think that they are, OGM, but they are not. And, because, the PV variety born from, natural pollination. So it's something that could happen in a natural way in the natural, but of course, there are, scientists that made it to find the better, variety possible, but it's something that could be definitely natural. And so the people are a little bit, afraid of these new varieties. And, so this is the most difficult that, I found, but when I have the time to open the bottle and, explain all the project that is sent in in Calabiasi, really, it works. And, and the other thing is that, it's important that, all the chain know about the project because if, I sell the wine at the owner of the restaurant, but the owner of the restaurant doesn't explain the project to the sommelier is very difficult to sell the wine because today, no one, in a wine list, probably ask or chose a PV variety. We have to make a lot of, tastings and the master classes to explain, our wise. Sure. And we've we've spoken also about this before. I think sometimes trying to talk about PB wines and separate them, you know, in a way, it's like we are in Italian is, you know, and Yeah. I'm missing the word in English. You know, it's it's wrong at the same time. You know, they're just natural varieties, like any other varieties like San Jose, but just they have a different name and happen to be resistant to fungal diseases. So, absolutely, and by the way, obviously, actually, in the next few years, we'll see the first prossecco bottles being produced with a eevee glera, which is also very interesting. So if if if also the prossecco consortium has jumped on this, it must be something important. Yeah. But I had, one month ago a testing with, Viva, Co Perativa Ocshedo, and, I was one of the the speaker in the master class. And, we tasted, ten different pinot grigio. And, so the base of these wines were, the traditional pinot grigio, we had the the ten percent, the twenty percent, the fifty percent of PV variety, and, there were fifty people in the testing and all professionals, and no one recognized the wines with the TV variety in the blend. And this is for me is very, very important because we have to keep the quality higher possible because, once again, the people drink good wines and wines that, put the terroir in the glass. This is really the most important things, but, with the PV variety, you can do that. Of course, we have to plant the right PV variety in the right place. But this is exactly the same. If I plant San Giovanni in Trentino to Addishe, I'm going to make a bad wine, but it's not a problem of sangiovese. It's a problem of the potential that make a mistake. Exactly. If all of your wines is not good, it's Nicola's problem, not the PV problem. Yes. Always. Yeah. Absolutely. And do you feel like internationally the reception is being different, consumers, and some of the years more open already? Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. And, just to give you two examples, in Belgium, and where where we met. For example, yes, they are more open because, more or less, the fifty percent of, the surface and device in Belgium is with PV variety. So they already know about a uninter bronner, and so it's more easy. Just because, even if Italy, of course, is more important, in terms of wine business than Belgium, but in Belgium, they are more, in advance talking about the PV variety because they know better than us probably. This I'm talking about the customers, the, the PV variety, And in the same time, I feel more open minded in the USA, because when I was in New York with, I think, two or three years ago, when I've been there now, was, the for the fifth time, Trebikari in Gamparos, so. And during the master class, the people are more how can I say? Open minded? Yeah. Open minded. Yes. But also more simple when they think about something. They say. Okay. Okay. I taste the wine. This is good. And then you show me that you can reduce the forty percent of the carbon footprint. Okay. Dylan, I love it. They do not preconceptions in in when they are. Exactly. And in Italy, it's more, more difficult because Italy, the people say, okay. But maybe after twenty years, the PV variety can lose the resistance to the disease. Okay. Yes. But, first of all, you don't know it. And no one know about it. And then even if, the PV variety after twenty years lose the resistance disease. Okay. But if the wine is good, and for twenty years, I reduce the carbon footprint of forty percent, is better than, the traditional one. Absolutely. Okay. We have to move on because it's time to talk about your own wine. I know you mentioned it before. Of course, made, you mentioned with the PVR ID you are needed. This is a truly exceptional wine that I've been very lucky to taste many times on different vintages. Can you just share the story of how this wine has become one of Italy's finest white wines? Thank you to say that, and I'm very I'm very happy about the success of Windaleneo. And, I think that, Windaleneo becomes one of the most important, white wines in Italy because, behind this wine, I had a project. I wanted to make a a high quality wines I planted in a area Valdinone, that, in my opinion, is very, very good for the witch culture. It's not very famous. Oh, of course, it's not famous at all because it's famous for the apple trees and not for the wines, but with the climate change, going up at we are close to thousand meters above the sea level, and I planted with a crazy density because, the first vineyard that I planted is sixteen thousand vines per hectare, where the average density in Italy is, four thousand. So it's four times more the density that yeah. Everything was done to make the best wine possible. The idea wasn't to make a sustainable wines. The idea was to produce the best wine possible. So, also, the winemaking is, in a burgundy way. So it's a butter fermented. A lot of batonage. I released the wine after two years. So many, many details that, help me to make a a high quality wise from your monitor, but the most important thing was the project. And then, you know, the name, Vindra Nao, that, in Italian means, wine of the snow, and sometimes the people think that, it's a sweet wine because they think about, high swines, etcetera. But it is not. It is a dry, still white wine. But the name comes, because the twelfth of October two thousand and thirteen, when I wake up to pick the grape for the first time, I just opened the windows, and everything was covered by the snow. And it never happens in October to have the snow in cardo in Baldwin. And so after a very strong harvest because it was very, very cold that it is good for the grape, for the vineification, and for the wine. But, believe me, not very good for the people that had to pick degrade. Yeah. I decide to give the name to the wine, Vindranell, that means wine of the snow is a very limited release because today I'm producing, thousand bottles, but, I think that, I cannot say that, Windaleneau is the best wine from PV variety, but, I'm sure that I can say that Windaleneau is the first wine from PV variety that tried to produce an icon wine. Absolutely. And I think you've nailed it. It's a truly exceptional wine. You can see it has, a lot of aging potential, so complex. You're doing a great job. So and in fact, I think you're planting some more vignas. Right? Yes. This year, I planted, other zero point, twenty five actors. And next year, I will finish the project for now. And, so in total, I'm going to produce around two thousand two thousand five hundred bottles of, Vinderenell, that at the end is, all the garden of, my house on the dolomite. Amazing. And, of course, I've been there, and I highly recommend anyone to get in touch with you to to go and visit because it's it's really worth it. And in a way, the Vindel, I know. I think it's it's that wine that is maybe opening some doors. To other wines made with PV varieties, especially in your network with the other producers. It's always the wine that's when you open the bottle, it gets people attention. So it fits perfectly in the whole work that you're doing with the with the network. Yes. I think that, at the end, the most important things of, Vinderenell is that, this wine, show to everybody that, we can do it. So there are no difference between, wines from PV variety or others variety. So if we work in the right way, we can make amazing wines And for that, I always want to make, tastings not just with PV variety, but, with all the other wines because we are talking about wines. There is no difference because if, the wine from puberty is good, it's okay. Because if it's not, I cannot say, okay, but this is more sustainability and so I'm going to buy it. No. It doesn't work. We have to make the same quality or better quality than the traditional wines to go on the market with a strong identity, and we have to be hundred percent sure of the quality of the wines that we we have in the bottles. And they really believe that, vendor now show to everybody that the PV variety has exactly the same potential in terms of quality of the other ones, of the traditional ones. Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree. And just, before we wrap things up, I know you love a challenge, and you mentioned before as well. In recent years, you also bought a vineyard in Moz in Germany. What is all this about? Yeah. Three years ago, I bought a very small vineyard in Mosul, and because, I love everything. I love the wife that, age, very, very well. Because I like, to open all the bottles of white wines. Maybe more than, old bottles of red wines, but this is just, my taste. And Moisel is amazing because in Moisel, I can, under the appolation, so it's mosel on the label. I can produce, riesling, or I can produce your monitor. I can use the drones for the treatments. I can do more or less everything I want. Of course, following the rules, but they are more open mind. And, just to give you an idea when I bought the Venus, and, I produce a very high quality riesling, but after the vintage twenty twenty three, I decided to replace all the vines because it was very, very old, and, we miss the forty percent of the vines. So we need to replanted the old vineyards, and I planted fifty percent riesling and fifty percent eonitor. And, this is, for me, a kind of, seller jockey, where I can do all my experiment. So try to blend the riesling with the unit, plant the unit in a different place, and, working with the drones. So it's a very special project where I can make a lot of appearment and following my goals, and the goal has to be produced the best wine possible with the sustainability. But I really wanted to make a connection between, tradition, so riesling and innovation with the the unit. Very interesting. And looking forward to taste, the wines and the next few vintages. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think we are coming to the end. I can't thank you enough, for being here today, Nicole. It's been really interesting speaking with you, and I hope our listeners as well as and have been inspired or a little bit of, you know, become a little bit more curious about pity varieties. And I'm sure in the future this, inevitably, we'll be hearing about these varieties more and more. And as long as they produce quality wines, I don't see why we shouldn't be focusing on these on these grapes. Yeah. I agree with you. And thank you so much, Robert, for your time and, to invited me to this postcards. Thank you so much guys. It was such an interesting interview. Really, it was amazing. And I sincerely thank you also for the time and effort to be here in the same place, for doing this interview. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I hope that you enjoyed it, you both. I mean, Absolutely. Yeah. I do. Perfect. So for wrap things up, for those who are interested to participate, just send us a DM through our Instagram or mail our Italian when podcast producer at info at italian wine podcast dot com. Thank you so much everyone for listening in. And this is a rep from Italian wine podcast. Bye. Bye. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. 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