Ep. 925 Tara Empson | Get Us Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode is brought to you by Vinitally International Academy, announcing the twenty fourth of our Italian wine Ambassador courses to be held in London, Austria, and Hong Kong. From the twenty seventh to the twenty ninth of July. Are you up for the challenge of this demanding force? Do you want to be the next Italian wine ambassador? Learn more and apply now at vunitly International dot com. Thanks for tuning in to Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. On the Italian wine podcast. I'm Steve Ray, your host, and this podcast features interviews with the people actually making a difference in the Italian wine market in America, their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. And I'll be adding a practical focus to the conversation based on my thirty years in the business. So if you're interested in not just learning how, but also how else, then this pod is for you. Hello, and welcome to this week's edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. This week, I'm pleased to have as a guest Tara ensign, who is the CEO of Empson USA. And if you're not familiar with them, well, Tara's gonna explain who they are, Tara. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your company? Well, hello, everyone, and thank you so much for listening today. Thank you, Steve, for for having me on this wonderful podcast with you. As Steve mentioned, my name is Tara Empson. I am the very fortunate daughter, to bring on a legacy of my parents. My parents are Neil and Maria Empson. Well, long story short, they've met on a blind date in New York. And, they both told each other how they were never gonna get into another serious relationship. And eleven days later, my father proposed, neither of my parents came from a wine background. As a matter of fact, my mother was born in Rhode Island from Italian Heritage. My father was born in New Zealand, but my mother studied at a very young age, she left home, and, she studied at the academia de la bellea Artiuffierienza. She was an artist. And my father was in a a very passionate about cars, and we're talking about certain types of cars, which I'll get into. But this said after they, my father proposed, my mother's dream was always to go back to Italy because that's where her heart was. And, so they, they ventured there at, they were in their thirties at that time. And, my father, actually, my, well, my mother was painting, and my father would go around Italy, and search for these cars that Italians at the time didn't even know that they had or what they were sitting on. We're talking ferraris, we're talking all sorts of cars. My father's passion was to tune these cars up and bring, you know, bring them back to life, and he would post the ad on the Harold Tribune and, drive them up to the south drive them to the south of France and sell them. When they would sell these cars, they with that little money that they would make, they would go out and celebrate. And then that's how they got introduced to Italian wine. They would go to these restaurants and drink these wines. And, you know, we're talking about a very different one world back in the late sixties, early seventies. And a lot of their story was finding these wineries, so they would get in the car, drive around Italy, find these producers, shake hands, and start this relationship, and that's how they were introduced to the beautiful world of Italian wines. So obviously times have changed and handshakes do turn into contracts, but, you know, we still represent some of the wineries that my dad himself. And my mother would go around and, and scout to this day. So this is where their love for Italian wine starting. Okay. So they're not involved in the business anymore. You're running it now. Am I correct? That's a that's a trick question. My father will never retire, but, I do the paperwork. I can understand that. Okay. And how many states, are you guys operating? And are you fully national? Or Yes, we are. We are fully national, and, but we also export wine in about thirty five countries in the export wines from Italy to other countries or from America? We have our main hub is in Minano Italy, and then we have a a headquarters here in Alexandria, Virginia. We also have another headquarter in, Alberta and Canada and Calgary. And, yes, and then we also have Emson Japan. And so we, we, we like to position ourselves globally. Okay. So, I'm hearing this, and it's, it's a very different type of the description of a, of an import organization from the many different types that I'm familiar with. What defines Emson USA and what differentiates you from others of either a similar size or a similar set of focus? For example, Italian specialty. Importers? Absolutely. So for starters, we we are present in Italy. That's where our main hub our main headquarters are. So we're there. We're there with the producers. This always makes a different for us in the sense that if, you know, if we we drive to the wineries, we meet face to face. I know technologies change a lot of this, but we're there. We talk every we we we are connected with the wine, world in Italy. So that is also very key fundamental for us. You know, we, we also have a very good, you know, with the export and, and with logistics. We are involved. And I always think that this is very important. For us. We're not separate from the wineries. We are there with them. And this has always proven to be very, very important in times, you know, especially when certain situation, arise and everything else, we, we get in the car and we go there physically. We are on the spot to talk to you. So let me just jump right into that one because it's a point of not contention, but reality that we all have to deal with. One of the issues everybody in the industry is facing is the challenges of logistics from at minimum just finding enough containers. To consolidating freight in less than full container orders and increase in shipping rates, you know, two to three to more times. And then, of course, the problems and reports. It's a big challenge for many of the wineries that I deal with that they're sitting on orders and the wines floating on the ocean. How do you guys deal with that situation, Helen? Where do you think that's going? Well, that is a very interesting question. And, to answer that, there is there it's it's a problem. Well, it's a situation that is felt down the entire chain. So not only in the wine industry and all industries right now. So starting from the lack of, you know, primary goods such as bottles, paper, packaging, pallets, all of these things, the increase in the energy, fees, gas prices, everything. Are priceless, and all price lists, as a matter of fact, have gone up because just the expense of running, day to day operations on behalf of the whiners has increased. This is leaving less and less room, obviously, for them to, to, to, you know, manage everything, and it is a major problem. We have had reports from winery saying, well, I've sold my wine but I cannot find the packaging to actually deliver the wine. You know, and all of this, and and especially coming out of COVID, in which we, you know, during COVID, we had all that time there in which we couldn't we couldn't find anyone to sell the wine, especially if you were on premise focused, to having such a rapid, a market as far as just recuperating and and what people want and not being able to deliver. It's it's it's almost like I'm I'm sorry to say this, almost like a cruel joke, you know, and some, and some matches back. But, yes, this is, we, we, there is a massive shortage of containers. A lot, you know, during the pandemic, a lot of the goods came from China and other countries, Amazon, as we all know, took over the delivery system, took over big time, And so a lot of the, containers were rerouted. The problem is trying to get them back. So and also the the cops. I mean, we've had exponential cost per container and spaces and everything and weight. And and even the other day, we just got a new price increase. On containers. But to answer your question more specifically, there's a waiting line. Everybody is waiting in line. So even, I mean, I'm sorry to say this, you know, even talking with, with, you know, our, people who shift the line for us at this point, even if If you were to cancel an order, you'd only do them a favor. That's how backed up they are. That's how much pressure they're getting. And it's not just one. It's all shipping companies. Because remember, it's we've gone from a lot of independents to the big companies buying them up. So when you look at flexibility as far as shipping, you're dealing with, you know, pretty much four or five main structures. Yeah. And Calibrand just got bought and consolidated into I I forget who did it, but something larger. So what are you guys doing about that? How are you dealing with? What are the practicalities of how you're addressing, if not solving that problem? Addressing is well, I mean, addressing is get in line. Try to be as proactive as possible. Organization is key. You cannot leave things into last minute, but also the other part of the challenge is being able to try and stay ahead of the curve, but without overloading yourself. So for example, when the tariffs came out, and I know I'm veering off subject here, but or when other situations and in the past. What a lot of people would do is just, you know, get caught up by anxiety and ship everything into the market, and then what you what's the problem? You're sitting on a whole lot of goods, and that's a cost as well. So you're trying to do things in a way that that allows you the right amount of shipping, calculating the shipping time costs and everything else, but not overloading yourself. So that's something that's, you know, that's always the fine dance and the fine games that, you know, well, not necessarily games, but the fine situations that we also try and and be mindful of because things, things as we have seen in the past years are changing day day from moment to moment and everything else. But, yes, we try, you know, as soon as we can get a container, we block it, whatever we have to pay, we have to pay. That so two things can happen. The reality of this is one is out of stocks, and the other one is an impact on pricing as your costs go up. How are you dealing with, the out of stocks? Should we see it in many stores, not just liquor stores, but grocery stores as well. I mean, different brands of brand loyalty has kinda gone out the window. You buy what they have. Right? That is very correct. We have that. We we do have that problem. It is a problem I wish I did not have. We went from, you know, having a surplus and now being out of stock. So, again, going back to what we were saying, but, yes, that that is absolutely correct on all goods, by the way, whether it is hard liquor, whether it's spirits, whether it's, you know, everything as, you know, especially when you when you talk to restaurant tours, they're always out of stock on something and looking for replacements. So you are correct. There is a shifting brand loyalty. Is it permanent? I'm not sure, but, you know, people have to sell. There is demand. So what are you doing as a company? To address that problem for your products that are outer out of stock or the opportunities for other products that are out of stock that yours may be a substitute for. So there are two two. Okay. So to be very blunt with all fairness, we try to divide it in two. So we have our key items that we know we have to continue shipping because we do have a demand on such products. But when you go into the smaller, more esoteric type of products, it's difficult really to, ship them because those are, you know, whatever you get or whatever clients you have. So you do have that situation happening, and the out of stock seems to be, present a little bit more on, on, you know, how how can I define this? On, you know, smaller items or smaller wineries or niche products rather than the hard the volume metrics. Because those you know you have a continuity, you also have bigger clientele. So you tend to have more repetition as far as containers and orders on those items. But this said, a container can come in and be blocked. A ship can be in the port now for two weeks and you're a month sometimes, and you cannot get that container on dry on dry lock. So a lot of these things are are gonna be out of our control. We do have we as as everybody else. I mean, people, we have customers that do complain about this. We try to be as proactive. We try to listen. We try to do it. But unfortunately, a lot of things that we're going through at this moment today are gonna be out of our control. Hopefully, tomorrow, they won't. Okay. Well, let's let's take a specific instance, and I think this is where we we turn a negative into a positive, particular on premise account. Maybe a big influential place in any given city. Can't get the ones that were, you know, the on their core list, and there's a a window of opportunity. You're not gonna replace what was there, but, you know, ongoing business, but there might be an opportunity to fulfill or fill that hole. How are you doing that with your sales team to identify those opportunities and then, capitalize on. Say, making one up. My Italian restaurant in New York City has always been selling Capizana Barco real. Okay? Now that's out of stock. I don't know if it is or not. We used to import it, so that's why I'm thinking about it. You may have a substitute for that or replacement for that in your portfolio. Are your salespeople aware of those things? And if so, are they taking advantage of those opportunities to get the sale for your brand and potentially supplant Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's that again, that's a very good question. We we are. I mean, those are the relationships that our team have with, specific clients. You know, you walk in and you're like, you know, hi, Johnny. Let's, you know, how are you? How's everything going? You know, you had to go through five minute talk, oh my god, I'm out of wine, this and this and that. And then, you know, going, you know, what, what can I, what, what do you need, what, what can get you? And it's like, yes, I'm, I'm out of stock on this item. Do you have a, do you have a county classic or you have a country, basic? And that need, of course, or offer communities. Of course, my question for all of it is, you know, a lot of these reports that we, we, we, we've already had. And the big question mark is when, sorry, which is because we, we mentioned that when a corporate center comes back in, will they go back to Kepetana or remain with our product, that is a good question. A lot of it is also the consumer. Is the consumer gonna be bothered by the fact that they're drinking something else and be turned on by that, or they, as soon as Kepetana is back in, are they gonna prefer to revert back to what they know. Yeah. A lot basis or at at his his basic level. It's an opportunity to taste people on it, and you have, you know, resurrect the the discussion, which may not have been possible before. Okay. Let's go back And, one of the things that, you explained to me when we had our original conversation because of the history of your parents, and your father, particularly, you've had many of these wineries for over fifty years. Talk about that. Why that's important? Is it a is it a benefit? Is it a good thing? And how has that progressed? And where do you think that kind of a concept of this relationship that you have with family to family sits in the world of wine, which is getting a little bit more cut through? Yeah. Absolutely. I I love that question. And, so for starters, yes, we we have wineries that we are so grateful to be representing for over, forty. A lot of them, definitely fifty years. And why does that mean a lot? It means a lot because, as you, as you very well mentioned, in the world of today, relationships, you know, they come and go. There's a lot of options out there. We are used to being, almost at times, having too many of what we're doing. And, you know, when you when you say you celebrate forty or fifty years, it sounds, you know, it sounds wonderful, but as everybody knows with relationships, what is fifty years? Fifty years means continuing to trust each other, weathering the bad times, being there for each other, developing what is, trust and and unity, and and and just the the just so many factors of being able to weather the storm and come out of it stronger together. And knowing that, you know, it's not going to be a relationship that's here and gone tomorrow. And especially with, you know, and that also translates as far as distribution. You know, our distributors, you know, they love the fact that, you know, you have a brand for over fifty years because, you know, also for the distributors, there there's, you know, as we know, the distribution network is huge and every other day when changing wineries. And for the client as well, you know, you're coming in one day with this guy, and the other day with this guy, oh, we don't have them anymore. And, and this and that. So, you know, when you're, when you have continuity, it, it says a lot. It says a lot for the person that you are, for how you take care. Of the people that you that you have and and and and your partners. Yeah. I think, as you described that now and and prior, you know, we're normally our relation when when we're dealing with, in individual winery. Usually, it's a function of, disagreement in terms of volumes, objectives, and revenues, and margins. The business of the business, if you will. And those are still obviously always going to be important. But over a time period of fifty years, any given year where you meet or didn't meet exceeded or didn't meet the objective, kind of pales in comparison to the overall relationship and how the families, you know, connect and support one another. That's a rare thing these days. If you think about the way the distribution business is consolidated, it used to be run by an individual family in each state. And you knew the person who was had the name of that distributor, you know, and and that was the guy that you dealt with. Usually was a guy. Now with the consolidation, something like, was it seventy five percent of all wine as being handled by ten, the top ten, distributors? That family relationship can no longer exist. Yet in the Italian wine category, it's still critically important. And, frankly, is the one thing that many of the wineries I talked to lead with about the importance of that? Is that, like, no longer relevant Are we are we like back in the sixties now? Or how do you guys maintain, that kind of a distinction in a world where we live in with the web and COVID and war in Ukraine and all this craziness? It it is important to have relationships, and it's important to be consistent. It it's it's sort of like when you talk about wine scores, right? It's not about getting that ninety eight point. It's about showing that in time. You've always con you've been consistent with your quality. You've been consistent with who you are. Because when you are consistent, there is trust. You know whether it's Empson or co brand or anybody else, you know that when that person walks in, you know, that little logo who we are, the consumer's not gonna care, but the distributor cares because they know that we They know who we are. They know who who they're dealing with. They know our way of working. And that means a lot, especially in a world of hectic changes, wines, independence, people trying to go direct, and, in all these small factors, And the fact that we also do a lot of the back work for distributors and for the wineries facilitates all that. So it our role is changing. It will always change as an important. I mean, our role in, you know, when it was and in the eighties is not gonna be is not gonna be what it is not what it is today, and it's certainly not gonna be twenty years from now, but it is very much valued. The fact that there is a report. There is a a a way of working. There is a a a stability in that point of view, especially in the world, as we were saying, there's so much there's so much happening every single day. Okay. You had mentioned co brand before. Who who do you view as your competitive set? Not your enemies, but, I mean, people who, are in a similar business to yours carrying a lineup of wineries that are relatively parallel to yours. Who do you who do you who do you think you're Well, there there are many. There are many you know, is there really an enemy in the wine industry now? No. That's what I'm trying to say. This is not a negative question. It's, sometimes you can get a little bit flustered because, you know, someone's ahead of the curve. And, you know, we, we, we always, we always like to think that we're special and unique, but I have to say that there are absolutely some wonderful, wonderful people who've done so much for the wine world And, you know, going back, we, we have the utmost respect for co brand. As a matter of fact, they also represent one of our wines. That's how much we love them. And, I, I really feel that if quality is at the forefront, quality, whatever it may be. But if you have, you know, the, you know, specific traits that combine, that would be someone that I would personally look up to and feel very much united. But at the same time, even the people who break the mode and let's just say have a very different way of working. Are people who teach us a lot, you know, and, you you you constantly learn. Some people do something that you would never dream of doing, but they hit the jackpot. They do it right, and and they're they're they're they're leading. They're doing those are the trend makers when you think about it. So everything in good or bad or uncomfortable or bad is, is is wonderful to witness to some degree. And, We appreciate that. Italian wine podcast, part of the mama jumbo shrimp family. Okay. Let's change the subject a little bit. I'm I'm here set. One of the issues that I find, I deal with and many of my colleagues in the trade deal with it is a difference or even a disconnect between a producer's expectations and of what can be accomplished for their wines and the distributors. Point of view. And you're there in the middle to try and keep the supplier happy and yet deal with the realities of distribution as we know it in a rapidly changing US market. How do you deal with that disconnect between supplier and distributor? So there are different there are different answers and different factors that contribute to that. So it it it all depends on what your idea of an investment is and how long you're willing to invest in order to reap the benefits. A lot of, some people believe, and this sometimes is point of the discord, which, you make an investment, and you're going to make, you're gonna see the benefits tomorrow. The actual process into the US market is actually quite line from getting TTB approval to getting the distributor on board, to doing to, to, you know, doing the presentations, to doing the marketing, to doing all of it. So that's also what importer comes into play, because we do all that for you. We have a structure that specializes in doing that. So usually, we require, and we advise that it's about three years before you're gonna actually see a stability in the market. So the first year usually, let's say the first and and months of the year because, the beginning is just a lot of presentations. You start to get the initial shipment. So then there's, like, a false hope, right, because each distributor is gonna start stocking up on on items. But then there's a turnaround. So and then there's computer systems. So once that turnaround happens, usually in the second year, you go through a lull. The lull is waiting for that product to absorb to start defining a trend to getting the distributor on board, to getting distributor salespeople on board and everything else usually by the third year, both the importer and the distributor based on what you put on the table, whether it's marketing contribution and different, you know, different ways of routes into market, then at that point, you start to see what your trend looks like. A lot of wineries, you know, they they always wanna talk volumes first. And you say, oh, but I wanna sell, you know, like, you know, fifty thousand cases in the first year. Fantastic. That's great with what budget. Because, you know, the distributor, they've got a full portfolio. And, you know, everybody wants to be at the top of the top. We always look at the icons and say, well, what my wine's even better than theirs, why can't I be there? Why aren't I getting the same attention Santa Margarita is getting? Right. Exactly. And we all know there's a simple answer because Santa Margarita's selling in volumes. It generates the revenues and warrants the attention. So many of the wineries, when you say marketing support, their expectation based on their experience in selling to other countries, is I'm selling you the wine. It's your responsibility to market it. There's no extra dollars there. And I as I talk to new brands, that's one of the things I, quote unquote, educate them on that in the US, you're in control of what kind of attention your brand is going to get. And investment is a critical component of. So that's part of the education of getting them ready for the US market. But let's talk about people who have been been here a long time. Understand that. Are there changes in the way you're spending marketing support dollars? Whether it's more or fewer in store tastings, whether it's, depletion allowances, whether it's discounts, you know, on the front end or, you know, how how are you allocating that money? You know, social media and all these other things? Which are more pure type marketing things. What are you guys doing at Empson USA? That's different than what you were doing, say, five years ago. We, we were very active in, you know, staff trainings and in person, and and a lot of those things. But obviously COVID has changed a lot of that, especially, you know, by we used to do a lot of by the glass. By the glass, a lot of people have a negative connotation about it, but at the end of the day, it it has it serves as a dual factor. It gets the consumer to taste it. Which is the hardest part, and it also generates volumes. And then from there, you can start growing. So we usually, for example, one of the things that we we invite, not all wineries, but we do advise is start giving us a buy the glass price to get it in circulation, because until it's sold, until it's tasted, you know, we need to get a gauge on this. Everybody wants to be, you know, top end on the bottom, on the wine list. And then, you know, that allows us to position. Start creating brand awareness. That's extremely important because, you know, people wanna see repetition or it did wanna see repetition as it changed in COVID also changed a lot. So a lot of our marketing dollars right now go into distributor support. So allowing them to, you know, work work with a specific price point also, you know, doing all these things. But to answer your question even further, before COVID, we used to do a lot of trips, you know, distributor trips and all these things there. And, obviously, now a lot of that's been curbed. It's been for very much because, you know, right now, we're we're preferring to invest in, and, you know, just by supporting the distributor because this is the because of the three tier tier system as the distributor who's gonna get that wine sold. So does that mean that the role of what used to be the press, whether it's consumer press or trade magazines, you know, magazines are not the coolest thing in the world these days, and we all get information in in different ways. So you used to take people out and we call them fam trips and, you know, you might have six to ten or twelve or if it's a big consortium, you know, might have twenty or thirty. But the kind of things that your PR agency is doing these days now is these zoom tastings where you might get fifty or a hundred people. Yes. It's a pain in the ass to package the wine in little bottles and send it individually to everybody. I get that. But the reach and the the cost efficiency of doing that I think is better than the the fan trips. Now I'm still a fan of fan trips because I get to go on them. But, do you guys find that that whole zoom tasting thing is going to continue? To some degree, I do. I do because it allows more flexibility for whomever to participate. So you don't have to get on a flight. You don't have to make time. You don't have to take time away from your family or work. You can you can be part of it and, and still live that experience even if, remotely. So I do think that there will be con a continuation for it, but, you know, people are eager to get back out there. And I think if there is a a good, smart, equal balance between things, you can potentially still have the in person events, because let's face it. They're they're different also types of personalities. I mean, with COVID, there were people who absolutely suffered, you know, not speaking to another human being. And then there were other people who absolutely loved, you know, the fact that they can just look Find and get something done. Right. So, you know, if we can accommodate both, I believe that both can be potentially wonderful ways of still continuing to communicate and spreading the message. Okay. But in terms of budget allocation, are you shifting more towards one? Do you see that happening? That's an interesting question. Depends the opportunity to be honest with you. Do we do we second the brunello Barolo tasting, we also calm down a lot on the Zoom, you know, just a lot on the interactive tastings just mainly because we're we're also getting into this new norm, question mark, question mark question mark. And you sit there and, you know, I think during COVID, everybody was doing pretty much the same thing, and it was almost becoming overbearing. You know, you you You don't want to overwhelm someone so much that the idea of hopping on one more student call, they would rather shoot themselves in the foot. We want to be able to have that, you know, positive balance to it. So I do think it's, it's, you know, Right now, we're trying to mediate in what is worth it, what is interesting, what is gonna captivate attentions, and also gauging what people wanna hear. Because, you know, when you're speaking face to face with someone with thirty other producers, they're they're walking around if they're walking around and they're living that experience. When you're on a Zoom call, you're kinda commandeering that time for them. So I can't tell you, you know, it's always that, sorry. I mean, I know this is a little bit unrelated, but we we we were all part of that segment of people who would conduct Zooms and half of people would have their screen off and you're wondering if they're, gardening or if they're actually there participating. So, you know, there's always that, you know, that question mark. Well, that was that was true too when they're present, looking at their answering their emails and all that kind of stuff. But okay. Let me kinda turn around and ask the question this way. How should brands expect to support the importer in the market? And what I'm speaking of there is I use the phrase death of work work with, you know, distributors don't wanna waste rather than invest the time in taking somebody off the street to do a milk run with a VIP from from the company who's coming. Those things are changing, and they're being implemented as standards in in the distributors. We're not doing work with anymore. So what do you tell your suppliers are the tools that you need to work with to influence district to get a disproportionate chair of distributor attention than your brand warrants by sales alone. Absolutely. I mean, I do think that just, you know, the workwids are still they they are a little bit coming back. I mean, we have gotten requests from a few wineries that they do wanna come back into the states. But they want them, but to the distributors, and my sense is, no. Yeah. No. Of course. And, you know, once they come in, you you also ask for, you know, the distributor give you that time because, you know, you need that, synergy to work with. So you, you still have a little bit of that. But, you know, before COVID, to be honest, with you. I was one of my it was one of my, points of, you know, being uncomfortable was there were too many workwits, and especially because all all the producers wanna go to, like, the same four markets. Right? And if you if you hire someone, let's say, in New York, my question was, are these guys ever going out and actually selling wine, or are they, you know, you know, accommodating one producer than the other than the other than the other. So, you know, I'm, I'm sort of happy that there, there has been a little bit of a, of a release in that sense because I, I do believe that it allows our team to focus more on the entire portfolio rather than, you know, Joe for four days or Tom for other four days. But in order to support the market for, you know, as a continuum as a continuity, would you, you know, we we require flexibility. So, obviously, things are gonna what they are today are gonna change tomorrow. We require, you know, obviously, some form of a budget of investment in order to be able to reach certain channels, whether they're on premise, on premise change, driven, whatever it may be at this point. We could require consistency. But for the most part, we've have seen we're still not really an unpredictable moment because we have oversold our brunellas and arboros this year. We are, you know, we're generating I've I've never seen our burrow and Bernella producers this happy. I mean, I'm I'm expecting a fruit basket and, you know, or or or some flowers. I mean, this is, you know, it's still a wonderful moment, but going away from that, the, you know, we definitely consistency, a marketing budget, you know, and just being flexible at this point. We do, you know, we do ask for that. Okay. So back to to to focus on the individual brands, How do you tell a given brand's story in this world of internet and social media dominated post pandemic world? I mean, have you guys developed expertise in working in social media or in the online world where we have sites like Divino and wine searcher and so forth. Well, we were having this conversation the other day. It's interesting that we're talking about it. I'm I kind of took a different approach, to be honest with you. I mean, I'm I'm an active Instagram user and during COVID at the beginning, I would pay attention to wine posts and everybody's posting about their scores. And you're like, oh, okay. Cool. Awesome. And then towards the end of the pandemic, it became redundant. It it literally became one of those things where it didn't everybody was doing the same thing, and it was almost like in sensory numbness as far as that went. So I I actually asked the company, and I was like, guys, I think we need to put a hold on our social media right now, because unless we have a clear message, or an educational piece, just boasting ourselves right now, I really don't feel that it differentiates. It might almost be, you know, uncomfortable to some degree. But, yes, the online world has taken over the, the advice from the experts is give us as much information as possible and this and that. And although I do believe the online world has its benefits, at the end of the day, you're a search page amongst so many other search page. It's sort of like going on to, you know, wine dot com. When I go on to wine dot com, I already know what I'm looking for. And it's it's a little, you know, you always sit there in question, and you're like, well, the wines that you're suggesting are they based on, you know, what I like them? Are they are they based on a certain type of algorithm? How how do I trust this? You know, it's it's it's very it can be very it it can be a search engine that can literally take away four hours of exploration if you're that type of person. Or it can, you know, it can be very stagnant as far as that goes. So I there are pros and cons that I've I've witnessed through social media. Yeah. But if you're gonna be in the conversation, then that that's that that's the point is, You're either in the conversation or you're not. And if you're not, you're dead. So that's my point of view. You are. But, I mean, I it's the same question that I would do some, you know, unless you are, a winery that already has a very well founded brand in the world of major online searches. I'm not talking about wine clubs and smaller ones because I do believe that those have more of a visibility and more value, especially if you are, not in the top ten fabulous wineries of the world. At the end of the day, like, you know, you don't wanna get lost in the endless pages of, of, of someone's library either. So, you know, the great thing in what, you know, the great thing about the One World is you can be anybody and still be part of what I love about our job is the storytelling, the mouth, the being being able to be a mouthpiece, you know, being able to go to a dinner and speak personally about these families and invoke that emotion, because, you know, we're drinking the product, but we're drinking literally people, not literally, but we're drinking that experience that we lived. And I feel that online, yes, you, you can go as far as being able to incredibly poetic with great pictures, but it's different to transmit, really, and get that eye contact, that gauge. And as we all do, and, in our tastings, sometimes it's not about the wine. How many times have we poured wine, and that person will stop us dead in the tracks and be like, I remember that beautiful trip that I took to Tuscany. I remember being here. Our car broke down. We went to the restaurant, had the most beautiful experience. And the wine almost goes into secondary motion, but that experience that they're living in that moment and that twinkle in their eyes, because it's all about us in our lives. Right? Like, it's all about our unique experiences. Really, they dominate everything. So, I mean, obviously, you know, in a certain type of range, and that is the connection that I do feel is a little bit more difficult to get to growls. Yeah. And I I agree with that hundred percent. I mean, the way I phrased it, And it's true every every industry, but in in wine, in particular, you know, if you can't bring people to Tuscany, how can you bring the experience of having been at Tuscany? To them, the idea that there are different ways for people to interact. We've seen a lot of people doing you know, vineyard cams and real life, real time interviews with winemakers who are, you know, out in the vineyard, and you can see the weather and those kinds of things. It's giving them the experience. Even though you physically can't be there, you can do all the things over the web that you you never used to be able to do, which is on on time dialogue. You know what? But it's also fickle and sorry. I'm I'm just gonna throw this in their left field. Go. Go. Go. Sort of, like, the online world kinda gives you this still frame into that moment. Right? And and what we love about people is that they have their day. So you could have someone who's who's having particularly not a very expressive day, like, a, a Zoom, whatever is going on, and it doesn't really transmit the full value. But when you're traveling and when you have that moment, you get to see people in different moments in different segments. And it's it's sort of a little bit, you know, sometimes it's great. And other times, you mean, what's happened to us, and I know this producer, and I know he's the funniest person in the whole wide world, and he was just not having that particular day. And you wonder, did you ever did you really transmit that how beautiful you are and how great you are into the hearts of the people that are listening Last question on e commerce has become a major thing. Certainly, for domestic wineries, it's been the lifeline during the pandemic. That's allowed them to sell direct to consumers. Literally bypass the three tier system. It's it's legal to do that. It's not legal to do that for imported minds. There's a lot of people working on potential solutions, to this thing. Where do you guys sit and and how are you involved in e commerce of imported wines? So we aside from importing and exporting, a beautiful array of wineries, we also produce our own brands. So with the e commerce, you know, everybody during the pandemic sort of switched on to that that portal because that was their their their outlet into the to the world, basically. So there's a lot of e commerce options out there. Whether it's personal winery or whether it's through a third party, there are ways to get your wines out there. We have started with our own brands to do e commerce mainly in Europe, we do we do very limited in the United States because our, you know, distribution network is very, very, very solid. And, you know, we work well. We work well with people. So I have to say we're not very we tend to be a little bit less proactive in that area, to be honest with you. We still prefer, you know, going back to distributors. I mean, you know, for example, we were talking about relationships before in wine warehouse in California. We've been with them for fifty one years. So we have that part of that distrib you know, you we talk about the relationship with minors, but we also have the relationship with a distributor. So when the distributor says, oh my god, you know, here comes Emson, you know, we do, you know, we weren't founded yesterday. They know exactly how we work. They they're ready for us. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And I think that's something that's changing too that the people you'll you're dealing with have changed the hierarchies and structures and response roles and responsibilities, that distributors are changing too. So it's no longer the same guys that used talk to all the time and see it all the, you know, W SWA and all the shows, this this new people playing. Maybe I've noticed that simply because I'm older. But anyway, back to summing up what I I like to end my interviews with a question of What's the big takeaway of of all the things that we just talked about? Someone in the trade listening to this, interview. What can they take away and put to use immediately in a practical sense? So in the practical sense, I, I'll give two different, points here that I find fundamental just to advise everyone. So when we were talking about what what wineries should expect and what they should do, working with an importer, we carve out a specific We tailor make a program for the winery. So it doesn't mean based on volume of who you are that everybody's gonna get the same treatment. There are different routes and different ways of working with a distributor. There are different time frames to expect. What I always encourage wineries to do is, you know, be honest on how you would sell your wine, be honest on what you're expecting. And at that point, you know, but also be patient. You know, good things come in time. You know, work be be communicative. It's it's okay to to get angry every once in a while. It's normal. But at the same time, this is a relationship. In a relationship, the longer it lasts, the more you have, to give to the future, in a world in which, you know, you swipe left, swipe right, jump, change, you know, a lot of the key people that we still know and talk to in the industry, they always say, you know, think twice before jumping. Everything, everybody has a bridge feel. Everybody can overdeliver. You know, we we're walking business cars at the end of the day, but it's the facts that really matter. So, you know, that's one thing that I always encourage people to put into practice. Also synergy, you know, it's whether it's a handshake or whatever it may be. These are the people that are telling your story and see if you're aligned with them. A lot of times what happens is that there's no you know, there's one expectation and there's a different DNA. Every importer has their own DNA. They have their own way of working. They have their own identity. And that's what they put forth into the market. And it's comfortable to find an importer, but at the same time, make sure that your vision aligns and you have the same values. Because that's gonna be really important moving forward. If my value is to be with you for the long run and whether a bad storm and your value is I don't have patience for this crap, and I just wanna see it tomorrow, we might not be right for each other. And, you know, these things do happen. The other thing I would like to advise, mainly on a market is, you know, starting pre COVID, but also COVID and post COVID, what, the wine world is changing. Everybody wants to be on on on the wine list, and I understand that. But the wine lists are getting shorter. People want more flexibility. People want space is the biggest issue that we're having today. Literally, the distributors are buying up whatever they can. So you need I encourage people to understand that. You know, people want the flexibility to change wine every month. People want the flexibility of not being bought. To there's no more, you know, the white table clock, the big phone books, you know, that we used to see back in the nineties of, like, you know, those, those wine lists. Those are becoming rare and rare. So to be patient with that, and to understand that, you know, the, there is a change happening in the wine world. So, you know, the, all these things are taking place. Okay. So a big thank you to Tara Empson for sharing her family's story for Empson USA imports. This is Steve Racing. Thank you for listening. This week, and we'll be back next Monday, which will not we'll be back next Monday with another interesting edition of get US market ready with Italian wine people on the Italian wine podcast. Thanks for listening to this episode of Italian wine podcast brought to you by Vineetli Academy, home of the gold standard of Italian wine education. Do you want to be the next ambassador? Apply online at benito international dot com. For courses in London, Austria, and Hong Kong, the twenty seventh to the twenty ninth of July. Remember to subscribe and like Italian wine podcast and catch us on SoundCloud, Spotify, and wherever you get your pods. You can also find our entire back catalog of episodes at Italian wine podcast dot com. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a lay of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian wine podcast dot com.