Ep. 69 Monty Waldin interviews Andrea Di Fabio (Cantina Tollo) | Italian Wine Coops

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. This podcast has been recorded during Vivite an event organized by the the alliance of Italian corps. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast. My name is Monte Warren. Today's guest is Andre de Fabio. Andre is the commercial and marketing director for Cantino tolo. Cantino tolo is a cooperative, a very well renowned cooperative, I should, in the Abruzzo region on Italy's adriatic ghost. See, I'm already gonna job as the marketing. I'm I'm your I'm your competition here as your marketing. Why? Why is your cooperative so well regarded as just getting straight into ex it is? It's really an important cooperative for, Central Italy. Of course, since we have, more or less eight hundred farmers associated and three thousand and two hundred hectares. We manage a big production, and it's really interesting because not only for the economic but also for the social, result for the For the community. Yeah. For the community. So what's the breakdown of of the hectorage? You know, how much is Trebiano, Debruzzo, how much are other grapes or international varieties or other native grapes? Most lastly, we manage multiple channels of grapes. But of course, we have, an important part of more or less twenty percent of Trebiano. And, Pekorino is growing a lot. Pekorino is an autoclos grape from our region. Red or white. Obviously, white. I know it's obvious for me, but it's really interesting since, it's a trendy wine. It's growing a lot in past three, four years. It's, gained a lot of position compared to Trebiano. Picorino is, really authentic from a brusso. You can find Trebiano, in different region from, Italy. So there's a big competition. And, Trebiano, the brusso is not so going well as well, the, compared to pecorino. What are the typical flavors of a white wine made from the pecorino. Great. Pecorino is, in mouth, is a really strong full bodied and, it's, spicy. In our, position, our location, we are five kilometers from the sea and twenty five from the mountain. It's really influenced by the sea. So there's a lot of stupidity in the mouth. In the nose, it's, not so fruity, but it's really director, and the spice is the, the best characterization for, smell. Do you think some consumers are moving away from the very aromatic while particularly say serving your lawn. If you look at prossecco Yeah. Obviously, for sparkling wine, but a very popular wine, and it has no aroma. Is that why Pickarino is is becoming You know, I think that, every time as, is trend, What I I think that is really important now for wine is the authenticity. So people, especially male leaders people, is searching for something, really authentic, and Bergorino is really authentic. He's, really linked to the a terroir. So what about the other, grape that you mentioned with a very difficult name to pronounce white wine grape? We have Cocarola. Cocarol is a white grape, but not so well known. It's really interesting since, it's like, a green grape, really linked to grass, grassy flavors, and, very good acidity as well. It's a good food. Yes. Perfect for different paintings. What about, you have an one called Caserina, that's another white wine. Right? Yeah. Pocerina. Pocerina is, So you didn't forget that one. Are you? Yeah. My your job, man. I'm getting it. Because at the beginning, you spoke me about the Cocerola. So you influenced me too much. Pocerina is, it's in our company, it's really important. Since, our group, Cantino Tolo group, manages very new DOP in Abruzzo. That's called the Tulum DOP. Tulum is the Latin name from Tolo. We have the how to say monopoly for, this DOP. It's a niche DOP. The first year was, the two thousand eight, and we started with the two white wines. The first one was Pecorino, obviously, and second one was Peceroa. Pecero Serena, we rediscovered completely, Pasadena, since Pasadena was used for blends. It's quite, massive production since it has a yield of, thirty tons actor used usually. That's huge. But in our DOP, we reduced a lot to the L. The L is now nine tons per hectare, and we use it, impureless hundred percent. So it's really nice. It's really interesting since as, it has a very good balance between fruity smell. So what are those fruit smells? What are the top flavors? Mostly tropical smell, tropical fruits? Oh, kiwi. Kiwi but papaya, and, in the mouth is a very it has a very good acidity and stupidity. Is that stability from the grape or is it also due to the presence of the Mostly the Adriatic sea, which is from the soil as well, since it's a very cut carrier soil. And, we have also some petrol, in deepness. Okay. So you I mean, do do you say it's like minerality, you know? Okay. Did you get petrols? No in the wine when it ages. Yes. You can appreciate in our white wine, especially for Pasadena and Pecorino, but it's, grows with the aging of the wine. So the fast arena is the is the riesling of the abruzzo we can say. More or less can see so. Okay. That's great. Well, we love raising it and, we love Pasadena as well. Now as a cooperative, you've been one of the leaders in organic wine grown in Italy. Yes. We started thirty years ago. Our farmers, and part of our farm They were, forty, fifty people. They started with this, organic vision of the life, not only for the vineyards, but of the life. And, till, ten years ago, there was no success for Gallicuan, you know. We had at the beginning, as more part bottles. We sold a lot, as bulk, the last ten years. There was a good growth. And now growing, with a hundred percent per year and more or less, it's the trendy growth for us. Now we gained a very important turnover, value. Why was a a magnet for the pioneering organic producers in Italy? What was it? Was it? Did people move there to to to reinvent their lives and to live a greener lifestyle? Or was it local people that converted to organics? The the location is really important. Since, yes, people live in, in green life, but what is important that we have five National Park. Our nature is really, helping us in the development of the organic, agriculture. And, you know, marketing is important as well since, now and quality and quality. Of course. So just for those of listeners that don't know, right at the start of this interview, you mentioned that we've got the Adriatic Sea on one side, and then the mountain or mountains. How far away from the coast? What is the main mountain called? Main mountain is the Grandasso which means the big stone. Yes. And forty minutes by car from the seaside. I love it. I love it how italian's a week. Everything is like by car, isn't it? It's not like kilometers or miles. Yeah. More or less is, thirty miles. So that's not a huge distance. Not a huge distance. Let's consider. Usually, past when I was going to the seaside during, at the beginning of May or the half of June, I added back the mountains with the snow, and it was really nice. Yeah. It's amazing contrast to have that, in one read. How do you see the future of cooperative winemaking in Italy? You, you know, your cooperative has been an in has had incredible success and it's not easy what you've achieved. It's been a long hard road, but you're certainly a pioneer on on the organics. Very good climate. You still have a lot of pergola vines, which is the traditional way of growing in the south, which I think more Henry will go back to you because of climate change. Obviously, for more, it's a bit more cost for labor. How would you if you were suggesting to other wineries in cooperative wineries to improve what they're doing, what would you suggest? I think that's it's really important that farmers, first of all, they they they have to understand their mission. They are really important for, not only for wine business for the environmental situation and, for the environmental future. And it's really important that farmers, as we understand, they have to invest a little bit more in their companies since, the big difference between, a private producer and the cooperative producer is that they, the first one as a brand building, really continues for the, the second one, the cooperative producer, it's more important, the quality the production. See, but they often see it as voluminous if we grow as many we get paid by the kilo. So the more kilos of grapes I deliver to the cooperative, the more money I'm gonna get, how do you prevent that yield hungry mentality from from dominating and and and then we're diminishing your brand. We try to manage our farmers in different ways. Of course for bark wine, we can't manage because there are big volumes, but for bottled wine, we make special contracts with them, and we establish at the beginning They will, do everything we want on the, on the vineyard. I I mean, products they use for, the growing of the grapes, green harvest, and so on. At the end, they will have define the amount, even if they are bringing us, ten kilos or under the kilos. There's no difference. But we want to manage the quality according to our, low. So you're basically at what you're offering them is is predictable economics. Of course. You you grow this in this way, and you will get this. Of course. Don't grow it this way, then you won't get anything. Perfect. And I mean, people some people would say that's a great idea. It makes sense. Some people say you crazy. You know, you're sitting there in your office. I'm out there. It's boiling hot. I'm pruning, and you're telling me to to cut my yield. How do you get around that? It was not so easy. You need time. But if you have results in the bottle, they will believe you. Don't worry. But do they do, but do they believe you? I mean, it's again, I mean, if they, you know, if you used to go to his creditors, they taste some different wines, I've listened to. But you have to pay that much. Yeah. Right. Yeah. These wines are nice, but I want I need to pay my mortgage. I need to buy a new tractor. Yeah. It's a compromise, you know. So is the what's the demographic like of your growth? Are they are they the classic image of a cooperative grown if there's an old man with his cap. His fear tractor that he bought in nineteen sixty four. Yeah. The demographic is changing, of course. Now we mostly, they are, old people, but they are trying to move to their song. It's not easy or daughter, of course. It's not easy. We try to manage, this transition. We try to make some, we do to join join, different. Are you as a cooperative allowed to buy vineyards or not? If if you if you know that there's a very old grower who's maybe ninety five and has a fantastic vineyard. Yeah. Can the cooperative actually buy that? Or or you're not we can buy. We can buy. We can buy. We have a little bit of vineyards, in our own property. Yeah. It's a tenant. That's not a little bit. Yeah. But they are, we use that for special projects, and so in terms of, I mean, how easy is it to be organic in your area for your main grapes? It's quite easy. What easy. What easy since, climate is, really good for us. It's not well diffused since you we have to manage the distances between, the organic and the conventional, vineyard, the spray drive. So yeah. Yeah. The spray. You have to understand that the Italian law is really strict compared to European law on what exactly on the spray draft. Yeah. On the spreader, but also in, products you can use, the quantities allowed in the in the vineyard. In our region, it's not so difficult. I have to say. It's not the same of course, in Sicily is the climate is, so Try. Try. Yeah. Let's just talk about mont multiple Chiano, the grape, obviously, not to be confused with Vina. Nobody didn't want to put Pocciano off the ridge in Tuscany. I think multiple genres are very underrated, great variety. Yeah. Yeah. People can argue about Filipinoo. Filipino says he is the actual grape that makes Trebillono neblet to wine. But what can you do to make people understand, or to help people understand that the red wine grape from Abruso is a fantastic red wine grape. Montebucho has a really good quality since, it does the Italian in a really aggressive, really structured, full bodied, I don't have to say it, but let's consider that in the past, it was used a lot for blending with, different important wines, and I don't want to mention that now we try to to give the to Monty Pushano good brand position. There isn't that frustrating there when you know that in the old days that multiple China was used in very, very famous wines, as you said. Yeah. So clearly It's frustrating, but, it's our duty to manage the the way to reposition the brand. The name of the Munchano. Since it has a really good qualities, with the Monte Punchano, you can manage wine that could last for twenty, fifty years, not fifty, sir, twenty, thirty years. And, in it's not common. What is the key thing to make a a good multiple channel? Is it, you know, can suffer maybe uneven ripening? Consider that, multiple channel usually is, picked before the half of September and the half of the of October. Usually, it depends on the wine you want to have in the bottle. If you want wine very structured, you have to pick up a little bit mature. You have to harvest, a little bit over. Yeah. Yeah. Usually multiple channel in the past was man mostly in the wood since of the aggressivity of the packet. So using oak, casts and barrels to calm the mostly barrels. We are changing greatly, our philosophy, we started to discover the cement tanks, concrete tanks. Hooray. Yeah. There's a it's not easy. Really not easy because, because of the town in, but we have a very impressive results, and we try to, use less Baric, more, big good to know and, big parts, especially not new, second, first message. And we now we are having a very good, results. We have a very interesting montepulciano. That is all, also a Trebriqueria Gamuro. So, it was the the third year in a row. It's called the Mo. It's a Montepocha reserve. And we started with this kind of Montepocha that was completely new for the the market since Montepocha reserve, as I told you before. Was, edged in, in Barrick. Now, we edged the internal and we had a very new, really complex, really elegant, but not so, aggressive, not so fat and, really drinkable. And now, you know, it's drinkability is really important from the market. Okay. I just wanna say thank you to Andre Di Fabio, commercial log team director for Paul Cantino Colo. I think you'd actually make a good vineyard manager as well based on the conversation we've had. So you are a man of many talents and you do work for, an outstanding cooperative. Thanks for your compliments. Yeah, Canto, I've known you, you guys for a long time. Cantino tolo in the Hebrew region, in Italy, and I hope to I'll come down and see you. We wait for you. Yeah. See how the organic program is. All those hippies. You know, you'll be, you know, you'll, you know, you'll be a hippie like the g s time, you know, you like, seventies. Nineteen sixties if you see what went down to approach. So it's doing all these weirdy, beardy, organic biodynamic. Oh, I don't know why I'm crying. You're smart. You got your suit, a fancy watch, and and you are gonna be living in a teepee in about a little tent in about ten years time. Yeah. Thanks very much, Andrea. Thank you. Nice to meet you. 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