Ep. 1024 Wolfgang Klotz | Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Thanks for tuning in to Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people on the Italian wine podcast. I'm Steve Ray, your host, And this podcast features interviews with the people actually making a difference in the Italian wine market in America, their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. And I'll be adding a practical focus to the conversation based on my thirty years in the business. So If you're interested in not just learning how, but also how else, then this pod is for you. Hello, and welcome to this week's edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. I'm your host, Steve. Right? And my guess this week is Wolfgang Klutz from Cantina Tremine. Wolfgang, welcome to the show. Welcome, and thanks very much, Steve, for having me. Well, as as we were chatting, we met for the first time, at Van Italy when when, this was a great follow-up to that. I I had been invited by you guys to attend an event. I guess it was before COVID nineteen couldn't because it's, for a variety of reasons, doesn't really matter. I was really looking forward to it. So, I when I was at the Van Italy booth, you guys had this picture of this stunning view of, you know, a vineyard in the Alps, and it's just it's just absolutely magical. So tell us a little about, wolfgang Clots as a person, and then you can talk about, Cantina Trump. Me as a person. Yes. I am, I'm grown up here in the area. So, throughout the day, it goes to the winery next village. They're grown up in a, in a wine growing area. And basically, the the depression for four wine came due to my to my area, the history of the area, and And when back in the times, wine was not that fancy, at least in the area, well, more than forty years ago. It was more of a thing for the, for the old people, and the young, they looked for anything else. But what but what brought home. And then that was something, where it's not, well, we have such a long history in wine. And and there was a little movement towards wine quality and nice items and labels, and so this was something I I got passionate about to to find the good parts of of our area. And one for sure is is what? So Cantina Truman is you've been there, I think, quite a few years. Washington fifteen. Yeah. So let's kinda put our listeners into the mindset of Alta AutoJ for those who aren't familiar with it. It's way in the north of Italy, bordering on the Alps. I guess that's what, it means alto and Autice means high on the Otice river. But what makes the area unique and and different from really any other place in the world. I mean, there are a lot of, points of view why this area is unique. Like, a lot of photos, obviously, are unique, but the case for, I mean, we can, and see from a cultural point of view, just, simple example, to Adidra River, you said the high part of the Adidra River. That's how we were called or got calls from the Italian site. It was, since Italy, or or did you became part of Italy. And so. But prior to that, was part of the Austrian empire, right? Yeah. Just south of Syria. Exactly. The history we have done was in Austria, and and and especially in German speaking Alpine area. And the German world does not say, HoF Edge, what would be the the German translation of Adger, but it's saying South Tyler because we are the south part of it of Taiwan. So it's the point of view, if you see from the north or from the south. And so this is a combination by the end of two of two complete different cultures. We have the German Alpine speaking culture. So South Germany, West Austria, what's our history, and then the area is German speaking since more than one thousand years since the Davarian people moved to south. And before the area were had his own rather romantic Alpine language. What we still find is some balances in the dolomite mountains. So culture wise, you will if you visit Adwadija, and you look to area, you It looks like being in a German speaking Alpine area, maybe in Austria. And street signs, in German and Italian, most people are speaking German as you here for my accent. I don't have a classical Italian accent, so I don't have an Italian name. But, obviously, being bought since, a good one hundred DS of Italy, we got also, the good parts, not only, but a lot of good parts, of the Italian culture, and make the area richer. So we have a combination of two of two cultures, maybe an on-site, to to enjoy and to see also a little bit more of a flexibility and creativity and the other side still being more strict than when we see it in the food, the food is being interesting enough to add to it because on the plates, you see this Austin hungarian from goulash to the Italian pasta on the result divisions. And and this is, kind of unique from the culture side. Then it's the dramatic hill point of view, what's probably more important for, for the wine, but not only as we need somebody to, to produce it. We are in the Alps. So just being in the Alps is kind of unique. We are in Mountain. So we are surrounded by the mountains. And and then the, in the other south side of the Alps, the valleys, usually very tight. They're very tight and steep, and and and on right and left hand side, there's no not so much space and room for beauty culture because the amount is like I said, of eight times. And then they grow up to six thousand feet, starting at at six hundred feet. If you look at the map of the alps and you find an a map of the whole alps in spring, you will see that most of the alps, they are white, and there is only one there are some a lot of tight valleys, and there's only one valley opening up in the Earth of the Alps. So a larger area with Alsnom, and this is where we are. So we have like, open space with three hundred sunny days. We've bay warm daytime temperatures, almost mediterranean climate, but then surrounded by alps and glaciers. Or mountains and glaciers. Sorry. And this unique combination, I believe we find also on the wines translated on the wines. Obviously, the differences between varieties and so on, but to keep it general, the wines are ripe. They have a good, good ripeness, and they have, soft the seed in it, but they still have a good amount of acidity. They still keep crisp So you will find a a wine that finishes on the palate with a beautiful ripe fruit, but still keeping the acidity and then being a crisp and and fresh white wine Interesting that you have three hundred days of sunshine and, you know, you think about clouds in the mountains, but it's that, the sunny days along with the altitude and the exposure, which allows you to do the ripening and still capture the diurnal temperature differences to result in more, aromatic grapes on, I presume. Yeah. Yeah. Let's jump right to, the subject that's of most interest to me. The area is called Tramon, where the city is called Tramon. And there's a grape there called Gewirtz Tremenor. Tell us a little bit about the history of Gewirtz Tremenor. And was it named after the town of Traen, or is it just associated with? Yeah, obviously, for us, it's it's the most important, variety. It's the variety that that we have the largest size of linear of it, and the largest production. And it's also on the point of, of, knowledge and and and labels and and and critics. It's the most important variety for container training. As far as we know, or as as recent researchers, have shown improvement is that Gavitha Amina is one of the all oldest grape varieties in the world. It's a very, very old grape variety. So even, important varieties, we still know today, like cabernet or the pinot, even reasoning they are all belong in the family to Gheville's terminal. So this tells us that Gheville's terminal is a very old grape variety. Being so old, it gets very difficult to prove where the grape is from. Over the grade is named from. And in fact, there is no, no proof, oceanific proof where the grade is from. There are some theories. The assumption defects, claiming their theories but they are still they are only tears. And so so far, we cannot prove that it's either from here, as we cannot prove that it's not from here, the same as we cannot prove that it's from another area, but there's no proof that it's not from another area. This is as far as it goes for the origin. It's very likely that it's not from here. Okay. But in any case But the name, yeah, there's one theory, saying, being so old, it came through the Middle East and the mediterranean sea. We are a classical traditional travel route from the Mediterranean Italian sea towards north and, and wish that it might came to the area and found a very good habitat here in Traami. So that's where the trauma in, Giverts, Tremina Crums, and the Giverts means. And the Giverts means, spice. So the spicy wine in translation, and we'll say the spicy wine from Tramin. And we are pretty much we were the the most southern area. And if if we looked the the the root from the in adriatic seed towards the German speaking area, it goes towards here, and we are the most southern German speaking area. So from here, the wine, it's very likely got traveled to the north. Okay. So much for the history of that. But let's talk about the wine itself. I mean, a very simple way to think about it. And when I talk to people about it, giverts, I mean, spice. People talk about spice. It goes well with spicy food. It's a very simple wine pairing. To make the default in America, I think, with, Chinese or Asian food, if we can be broader than that is. It can always rely on, diverts demeanor to be a good, good pairing. And generally speaking, it's it's beenified, dry. But there's more versatility in it than than just spicy foods. Can you talk us about food? Why gewirtzraminer has become so, more widely known and more popular? It has one, one important detail that that the area was able to create. It's own statistic of Gabriel stomina. Let's name it the Italian style of Gilbert stomina, meaning a dry style. For gilbert's lamina. So we filed that with sugar, it's it's more versatile on on on food pairings. Obviously, what like you said, the cuisine between Vietnamese, Chinese, In general speaking, it goes well with, fat dishes. I mean, there was a lot of fat because the high alcohol, the high hypo content in regards to me in a best way while with the heavier fat fat dishes. There's one local item. If I can talk about the local, food is, a smoked ham, what you should be able to find also in, in, in the US. We do. And, also the good wisdom, Nina has a dutch of of of smoking us. And then, and the the the grass of the spec, it's a good, good, And the fact of the spec is, is a good, combination with, with people's stamina. Everywhere, you have a high content of acidity, meaning vinegar or, Lammon, for example, It's a good combination because the mean is very low in acidity, but bears, bears that acidity holds the acidity. So everywhere where where you need a strong white line, you'd be able to compare the strong flavors you find in the in the in the dish, the smoked peanuts, it's it's it's fat, it's the spices in general. And an Italian dish was also easy or quite, easier simple to make it to to try it home, so to give you maybe something simple for for who likes to cook at home could be a saffron risotto. It's a classical risotto done with with saffron inside, very, very simple to cook, and then topped on the the finished the finished croaked, a result of, can stop with a little bit of licorice powder, and the licorice powder gives a touch of, of sweetness, but also bitterness, and obviously a strong, strong flavor together with the, saffron. And that's a beautiful combination with with the roots of meat. So that's like dried licorice root and grated or something like that? Yeah. You find it usually very rare. You can find a good saffron. You'll find also a licorice powder and it gets added or top on the finish on the finish date. That's close in. Yeah. Yeah. And so you can you can even add a little bit more or less depending on on your on your style of your favorites. Okay. Let's turn the conversation a little bit around to a a co op. And I think co ops are a really interesting subject. There's a lot of benefits to co ops. There's some drawbacks to it. You've got a hundred and what? Sixty producers. I think you said that are that are part of the coop. Families. Yeah. Yeah. Families and, and trying to get them all moving in in the same direction. If you've been there a long time, one would assume you have been successful in channeling everybody to go in the same direction. But how how, I guess, the simplest way to ask it is how is working in a coop different from herding cats? It it was a long process. It started. So what we're doing today is saying, quality wines or high high end wines as a cooperative winery started basically thirty years ago. And back in the times, it was a very difficult transition to make people understand that not quantitative quantity is the the better outcome, but, a higher quality will make them stay better and make it putting them in the position to reinvest in the vignettes and and to make sure that the young generations continue on what they're doing. Especially for mountain beauty culture because my mountain beauty culture can produce great unique wines, but will never be competitive for volume bytes. And, because the costs are higher. They cost a higher for volume lines. The costs are not higher for some unique wines because unique wines need a lot of fan working processes anyhow. Are you enjoying this podcast? There's so much more high quality wine content available from mama jumbo shrimp. Check out our new wine study maps. Our books on Italian wine including Italian wine unplugged. The jumbo shrimp guy to Italian wine, Sanjay Vazzy Lambrusco, and other stories, and much much more. On our website, mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Now back to the show. And, and this was started with maybe a little part of the growers than we had. We were in a lucky side that the market, especially Italian market, did accept from the day beginning this mountain white wines with the beautiful flavors, and there's a style of white wines in Italy. Don't really produce so much in any other place in Italy. And and and this market feedback gave the company the possibility to to economally ratify the producers for using those type of of bricks. And and and and and that better outcome attracts the auto producers Obviously, it got supported. It was a lot of of of, teaching and then classes and meetings, but to keep it very simple, this idea that by the end, at the end of the year, they are, economically better avoided than the ones not following that direction was crucial beside, the, the, the, the strategy of of the company itself, obviously. But then it was, yeah, it was, a continuing growth, better quality, better wise, better wise, better market, better market, better gratification for higher quality. And, and, and this was a very good move towards, towards better grapes. More attention in agriculture. And by the end, better, better, better wines and better reputation. And and so far this, and another very important side is that it's it's not the system. A model being docked only for container farming, but it's pretty much a model for the whole area. It became a model for other cooperatives in the area. The cooperatives are all small. As as far as we dock for cooperatives, we are not the general impressive big corporates and with thousands of hectares, we all medium small sized corporates in a way that we really can focus on it. And then and yeah. And so what happened over the last, two decades and The model is is paying off. It's paying off that, producers get paid over what they need to earn in a way that this whole month with the culture has has still a future. The co op goes back to eighteen ninety eight. Which I think is really significant in comparison to many of the other co ops that I know about in Italy. Yeah, it goes back to more than one hundred years. To add it as a growing back in the times, but also today, was very fractionated. We have five thousand hex dust and five thousand wine grapes. So they are all very small, and selling the grapes was something very difficult because there were just a few buying a grape buying grapes and thousand selling. So the power of regain was was was very little, obviously. And and so by by pure necessity, this, cognitive model started, it was pushed by the, Austien, government back in the times. In in the agricultural world, generally. And so also, he and Ramin, it was the parochist of the place. He was also the deputy in the parliament of Vienna, who moved, pushed this movement to convincing a little group of growers to invest in a winery and hoping for a better or convincing them for a better outcome than by selling the grapes. Then we had almost almost one hundred years of classic dot cognitive. Meaning, bulk wines, simple wines, yeah, red and white, and this, basically was what we did. And then, in the eighties, mid eighties, eighties it was the new direction towards, quality and and focusing one hundred percent in quality. Well, let's dig into that a little bit. My friend Kathy Hoja, who writes for Forbes, did a piece on you, and she was talking about the three hundred sunny days, the long ripening time, hang time, you might call it. And, while most wine regions tend to talk about soil, alto adige is all about altitude and exposure. And, I've heard you and others use the word sunny and Alpine. Do you think those words resonate with American consumers? American wine consumers? Obviously, it's not the the common, oh, let's say common, I can see arguments. But I believe from a certain point, they are also quite simple. If you hear sunny, you hear alpine. I mean, sunny stands for brightness. Alpine stands, can make think about about cool area, cool climate wines, elegant wines. And then we need to say, we we already focus on a certain kind of custom, I believe. We don't really have with with the area bay entry level wise. So we are looking for the customer who looks for a little bit better in a region and not the cheapest in a region, and maybe it's open for and even looking for more information and more and more identity in the wines, and so it can be the it can be the Alps. Obviously, our work is to find people being attracted by by the better quality and by the Alps and by the by the but I would tell it's already the story we tell or can tell. It's not a big empty story. Gewirtzdraminer is not the only variety that you guys grow there. You grow a whole bunch of other ones. You mentioned Pino Griggio but you have a number as well. So can you tell us about what are the more common white lines and then also talk about the reds? I just would open the the vine altitudes. So we are starting at two hundred meters, go growing up to nine hundred meters, and that's that's the reason why we don't have Guzmanina only. It's not not the decision. It's it's the the area making us looking for other varieties because especially Guyllis, I mean, they say very sensitive. It would never make any sense, and we will never have, a a balance gabriel's stamina above, six hundred meters and a five hundred fifty meters maybe two years out of ten. And it won't be a balance gabriel's stamina below three hundred meters. I'm I'm kind of simplifying because, obviously, explanation wins, county in two. But just to say, we need, great varieties for the very warmest vineyards starting with carbonate and metal. It's a very tiny part. But there are some areas that carry a soil based on exposed, they warm. It's called, for example, one of the areas called, the Building Valley. And, there those varieties the best to plant it. But talking about the main varieties, the is, robustamino in the middle, altitude, and then it's been a regional, let me know, and and above. And the second most important variety in our case is chardonnay. And it's a Alpine stein chardonnay. We, carry a soil. So the the results for chardonnay have a interesting, and I believe we are also a able to to create or to have our own identity in this beautiful chardonnay world. I mean, chardonnay grows great, great wines, and then in the US, and in California, and then in Oregon, and in South America, and Australia. So they are made good examples in in all over the world. And and I believe, we see that, our Alpine area has the potential to add one piece to this beautiful chardonnay pastel in the world. So simply, maybe even simplistically, there's Okey Chardonnay, which is like has been kind of a a go to thing in the United States. And now people are there's a big audience for non chardonnay. Those are two camps. Where does chardonnay from Altoado Jay fit or is is it a third leg on a triangle? No. I mean, I believe Obviously, we do have the stainless steel primary fruit driven chardonnay. That's a great glass of wine, for a certain level of quality and price. But if we really want the the the best satisfaction of our area and the variety, we are convinced that Oak plays a role and plays a very important role in the sense of, the the style of the Oak is very important. That's why it's a very important role. It's not that it's the important, the most important part of the wine, but how is used and which style of oak is used? And I think here. You mean, American versus Livonian versus Yeah. And and even how they dosed that, and I believe here we have seen a big, big, big change, and I believe, as far as what I taste from the US, for example, the good examples they moved away from this kind of sweet, vanilla driven oak to a nicely smoky oak dutch, what keeps much more elegant, but pushes the wine more in in front than not so much the oak, but still gives an added value to the wine. And, if it's handled in a proper way, I believe that's that's where Charlene finds his best. Okay. And, tell us about the reds. You have some unusual variety. Yeah. A rat, from our perspective. From your perspective, although the most important, also here, cool climate area is in Hawaii. And and then there's a local, gray variety, named Lagraine, and what's, d color deep dark color of the red wine looks almost like an over concentrated red wine, but then in the once on the palate, I believe you you're very creeped back to the mountains. It has, a much more ribbon acidity. It's not that concentrated, not that clap, not that complex. It's quite a lifeline on that, and on that tab, that helps. La Grne, l a g r e I n. And then, when he was a Skyava, what's another indigenous grape variety. And it's it's a red wine, for a lot of, especially, people who are used to American red wines, having the first glass of Skiana, they may might we think it's it's a red wine or it's a rose. So it's a very light red wine, but it's beautiful green color, especially in December. With a little chill on it, it's a a nice, light red wine and a good food pairing combination for for elegant food. Now you also have one thing in the history that I thought was pretty neat. You had a a dessert wine that got a hundred point rating by Robert Parker. I'm, I'm probably, I'm guessing you're sold out of that one, but I'm interested in tasting that when I get a chance to come up there. Talk about the importance of scores in your mind and to your American importer and what role they play in, marketing your brands in the US. I mean, scores, scores are important on on on different levels. First of all, they are bought important for our our own side of production. Especially being a cooperative to to give another sign to our producers and even to the team that we are on on a good good good direction that the market or the critics, seeing the potential in in this wine or in this style of wine, on this direction what we do. Then obviously, they are important on the market. They're important to to to get the positive feedback from the market, and that if positive feedback allows us to continue this quality direction. And, obviously, on the other hand, there is there has haven't been a change on this course from, like, twenty years ago, there was scores and then people really, how I'm gonna say, scores had a direct, a direct impact, on the sales, on the sales, and And even if we think having online online shops, what we have today, if we would have have have those online shops twenty years ago, those scores would have moved a ton of wine. Because back in the times, if a wine had a certain a certain award, people just look for looked for whatever what. And nowadays becoming much more critics, what's a good side? I mean, the more critics are the more wine culture gets gets promoted. Obviously, the single award doesn't ask for power, being one out of, I don't know how much today. So, international term, we've seen that the one hundred points, first of all, It's the only and first Italian white wine, so it's even a special one on the point. It's an, an enormous push push, obviously, because it's unique. And what's the name of that wine? That was the Evogale Gevilsa Amina, with a little bit of a sugar on it. It's, like, the third wine, not really sweet yet, like, like, those rieslings, and it's a wine that needs time. And with the time this sugar gets turned transformed from from sweetness to power. And the wine gets into a balance, what's impressive to see that that it's still is very, very elegant and and finishes with a with a good, good, acidity and the sweetness, what the wine has when it's young, really kinds of disappears and gets transformed in, in, in, in, in power. Happies in Garts, Amina, and as we maybe you know, from from twenty to the, to the old, ausley is a reasoning, for example. Okay. Definitely wanna taste this stuff. Pocale? Pocale? Pocale? Because it it recalls the in our area when also here the Geville Staminar was done in a suite style. Okay. As I told you, the last one on that two hundred years Geville Staminar here was done. And still is, by far the most in a dry style u verse. Okay. One last point on, location. My understanding is in order to get there, you have to take an aerial tram. Is that true? Yeah. That'll be a we are not easy located. So the simplest from from the US, at least the way I choose usually is Marona Airport, and Marona airport, towards Frankfurt, Munich, And and from there, from verona airport, it's an hour, an hour and a half driving. Oh, you can drive. So it's not like, isol so isolated. You need the aerial trim. No. You can drive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can take the aerial tram as opposed to you must take the aerial tram. That still must might be a lot of fun. Okay. Well, let's see if we can bring this to a close though. I and I mentioned to you that I'd like to end my interviews with, question about what's the big takeaway of of all the things that we talked about. If you could leave one thought in the mind of, listeners and and think of the trade now as opposed to consumers. What's the big takeaway? What what can they put to use immediately based on what they heard us talking put it in in a very short, way of one sentence, so the conclusion. I would say, that the the the potential of what what the customer can find in our draw a digit wines is a good concentration. A positive concentration in the sense of ripe food, like I said in the beginning, a beautiful mouthfeel of of ripe food, but with, very lively acidity, and the, and the soft acidity. Well, yes, make sure that the wines keep, keep, the saltiness and, and keeps you going on. But also gives you, a good mouth feel of of rightness. Okay. I I would add just from what we were just talking about, that it's a wine that's indigenous. It has all the things, sustainable production, all of these things that the American consumer wants, but it's not so far from the known or the familiar, as to be strange. And, it's I won't say readily available, but it is certainly, not uncommonly available to find that. And, certainly, it's something that, somebody if you're interested in, Cantina Traman wines and Gewverstraminer in general, go to your local store, and you can find it. And the same thing would be true or the lord for you. The same thing be be true on the trade side, helping broaden the acceptance of the American palette to wines that have tremendous history, uniqueness and frankly go fabulously with with food. We all like spicy food these days. So it should be diverts, demeanor every day. Right? Yes. Hope so. That's my answer to my question. Fair enough. Well, our guest today has been, wolfgang Clots from Cantina Tremen, which is a co op way in the north of Italy. In the Alps. And if you ever get a chance to go up there, I would take it. I haven't had the opportunity yet, but I'm I'm working on it, right, wolfgang? And, thank you all for listening this week. And, we'll be back next week with another interesting conversation from another point of view or perspective of the Italian wine market in America. And thank you all for listening, Wolf gang. Thank you for being on the show today. Thanks, Steve. Thank you very much. I hope to see you soon here in Katina trump. Thanks again for listening. This is Steve Ray with Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people on the Italian wine podcast. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bring you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. 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