Ep. 1085 Max De Zarobe | Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode has been brought to you by the wine to wine business forum twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth of twenty twenty two in Verona Italy. This year will be an explosively in person addition. The main theme of the event will be all around wine communication. And tickets are on sale now. The second early bird discount will be available until September eighteenth. For more information, please visit us at wine to wine dot net. Thanks for tuning in to Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. On the Italian wine podcast. I'm Steve Ray, your host, and this podcast features interviews with the people actually making a difference in the Italian wine market in America. Their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. And I'll be adding a practical focus to the conversation based on my thirty years in the business. So if you're interested in not just learning how, but also how else, then this pod is for you. Hello, and welcome to this week's edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian Morning People. I'm Steve Ray, your host. And my guest this week is Max Desirobe of Avonio Nacy. Max, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me there. It's a pleasure. The name is very familiar, to me for a couple of reasons, but I'm I'm sure for a lot of my listeners, Avenue, Nacey, is maybe they're not familiar with it. Can you give us a little background of the company and, you know, we're gonna get into a lot of conversations on some subjects, but give us some, kind of, a point of reference on the company. Yeah. I mean, Avian is the, you know, it's a it's actually a very old family from Tuscany. And they were producing wine here for for ages in multiple channel. And in the seventies, early seventies, I think in seventy four, it became really, an enterprise in the company. It was kind of family business originally, and then it was actually run by the in laws of the Avinian Easy family. And it became very famous for two reasons. First of all, the Vincent, because I think the Vincent for Avianese is, is known all over the world, even the French, considered that as a great, sweet wine. And also, of course, because of the nobelay, which, you know, the Vino nobelay is the the workhorse of Montebuchano and Avianese. So that's in in a few words, the history. Now to understand what I am doing there is just that my wife bought the winery, in two thousand and nine. She was a silent partner before, but in two thousand and nine, she she took over all the shares. And since May two thousand nine, we, we are at the helm of Avianese. To give you an idea, Avianese has about four forty acres of vineyard planted, and all production in terms of bottles, branded Avianese is around four hundred to six hundred thousand bottles according to the to the to the vintage. But a large quantity of our production is actually sold in bulk Oh, really? I didn't. About forty percent. Yes. And how much is exported to the US? US is our number one market, in every aspect. First of all, because as such, I mean, a large amount of a wine is is exported. I think seventy five percent of our production is exported. And, United States are number one there in terms of country. I'm taking about, I would say, a big chunk about thirty percent. And then we have to take into consideration that what whatever we sell in Italy is actually bought by Americans. And, we got the evidence as that, because of COVID, because when the Americans disappeared for the peninsula, Our sales in Italy dropped by seventy five percent. Wow. Wow. So that gives you an idea how important is the American market for us because even our domestic market is driven by Americans. That's the first time I've heard anybody say anything like that, but that's a a good piece of data. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. This has been I mean, this is something which I've been saying since day one, but nobody believed me. And then, unfortunately, when COVID came, we had to realize that, you know, I was right and to, unfortunately, I would say. But it it is clear that, you know, either we sell wine here at the winery, you know, etcetera, you know, it's at the door, or we sell to the restaurants, but the restaurants, they sell to the American tourists because Italian Italian people would drink Vino Nobile in Tuscany, but the fact that we sell some Vino Nobile in Naples or in Rome or whatever, demonstrate that, actually, you know, there's no local people drinking that. Otherwise, they would drink the local wine. So it's America who is on number one market domestically and internationally. And who's your, importer in the US? We are own importers. We do that ourselves, since already eleven years. So we we we jump one. So it's Evenio Nacy USA, or what's the name of the company? Avianese USA. Okay. And do you have people resident in the US? Four and a half people working all time for us. Yes. Yeah. We we we we we jump one one of the three tiers. So we talk directly to, the distributors we distributed in thirty nine states, and the most important ones. And are you aligned with any, one or few, particular distribution companies? One of one of our big distributors, Windbow, Yes. Definitely. It's number one for us. They they they represent sixty five percent of our distribution in the States, which is not bad. It's a big charm. Great company. I've been familiar with the portfolio and their Italian wines and and their They were big in, Austrian wines too. I had a lot of experience working there. So, they're good to hear that. Okay. So you mentioned Montepulciano. I'm I'm just gonna open the door because I think, you're used to answering this question. What is the difference between Vino Nobles de Montipocciano and other San Giovanni's County from Tuscany. Yeah. I mean, it's it's a difficult question because, let's put it that way. I I'm not convinced that the, doCGs, the way they are conceived in Italy. It's something which is perceived clearly by the Americans. The, as you probably know, they are a copy of what was created by the French in eighteen fifty five, but it's happening in twenty five years later in Italy, and something was lost in translation. So, when you talk about San Giovanni, is so, biotope sensitive by its own characteristics that trying to frame it into a denomination is a bit of a nonsense because the the sangiovese from that row and the sangiovese from this row are completely different, even if they are three feet apart. This is something that, you know, to be taken into consideration. So what we have to consider when we talk about sangiovese, is Tuscany in general as a whole because nowhere else on earth, they have been able to produce a great sangiovese. This is the only place you can find fantastic cabernet sauvignon all over the planet. Including Tuscany. We've been able to copy wines from others, but the paradox is this, no one can copy what we do because it's impossible to grow San Jose outside of Central Eastern. Actually, if you tell me, that's there are some areas, some areas inumbria, where they have a fantastic SanJovese, the locals will answer, yes, but this territory you're talking about used to be Tuscany two hundred years ago. So this is it. Okay. Well, let me ask a in order to ask a question here. Is there a parallel to any other variety in any other country? To, San Giovanni's being so definitive. And I would think grunewell leader as an example would be for Austria. It is grown in other places. Bla Frankish too. They're growing Limberger in upstate New York. Yeah. This is another one. I I would agree with you. It's let's be honest. I think that the the Sanchez, all the trials that have been done around the world and and and more specifically in America and particularly in in California were a flop. And, it never came out the way because, I mean, let's put it that way. Sancio Vise plays at Homei. The homeland of Sanciovise is Tuscany. So I'm trying to frame something which is so biotope sensitive into, kind of DOCGs, that are very often actually limited to, administrative divisions, like a town, which ignore completely what these regards pathology or climate. It's a bit of an of an uncens. So I think that if I have to explain to the, consumers, what is the sangiovese? I think they have to look at it from a kind of broad way in a kind of take a certain distance, a certain perspective and look at it from a wine from Tuscany with its diversities, clearly. I mean, you know, you were talking about Kianti. Kianti has a higher elevation, So the climate is is colder. The wines will have a general characteristics, more more acidity that the the Nobile, the brunello will be closer to the sea, and, we'll have a, I would say, a more temperate climate and and therefore give give wines with probably a heavier body. And but this is a caricature of course, sir. And, and multiple channel is a little bit more continental, a bit further away from from the sea. And therefore, It's a kind of in between light body and and a bit of acidity. Voila, but again, this is a caricature because, I mean, we we we you could find fantastic wines here or there that are in the denominations like Montecucco, or Morilino, Wisconsino, which are fantastic. It has nothing to as long as it comes from Tuscany, it's good. Okay. But let's cut to the chase. There's some confusion in the world, and I think you've done a really good job in the the pieces I've seen of explaining it confusion between, what Montipulciano. Vino Noblet de Montipulciano is compared to Chianti and why Brunllo has become this worldwide and certainly in the US, a sensation, higher priced wine, all that kind of stuff, and that has not happened to Vino Noblate. And there's some con contradictions in the name, the name of the town. So maybe you can kinda give us that perspective. Yeah. I mean, the, I used to say as a, as a kind of joke that we, we are squeezed between the the the rock and the hard place. The rock is is is, a brunello because it's famous in the United States for plenty of reasons because mariana family played an important role in distributing it in the United States, specifically during the period of the lira, which was, of course, a fantastic and easy job because your costs were in a kind of you know, monkey money and your income was in solid dollars. So, of course, you know, but that was monkey money. You know that. That was peanuts. I mean, you know, so basically it was it was a very easy thing to do and the the the they took the momentum and they did it very well. And, you know, I can only, but but pay tribute to this fantastic job they've done there. But it would be impossible to repeat that with the euro. Well, and especially now with the euro at parity, I haven't looked at what it was this week last week. I did. It's about parity. Yes. Indeed. So forget it. I mean, you know, this is possible when you know that, you know, from, from Monday to Friday, the value of the lira has dropped by ten or fifteen percent compared to the dollar. In less than a week, then then it's an easy game. So that's the first problem we have. This is the this is rock. And the hard place is the fact that Montepulciano has a namesake, which is Monteepulciano Debruso. But Montepul channel, Abruzzo has nothing to do with the town multiple channel where I'm speaking from. Abruzzo, it's a it's a province, which is in central, East Italy. And that produced a wine on its own, and the name of the grape is Montepulciano debruso. So you may find Montepulciano debruso produced in Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, everywhere because that's the name of the grape. But from Montepulciano Town, there is only one wine. Is the wine from Monteepulciano, which is the Nobile or the Russell. Or, ultimately, the, the, the Vincanto. But, I mean, the, the fact that, of course, they have the same name and they sound identical is confusing people, and particularly the consumers. I think professionals in America are able to tell the differences. It's no problem. But I put myself in the shoes of a consumer who is facing a a shelf in a, you know, in a wine shop or in in supermarket and sees next to each other, a bottle at six dollars and a bottle at thirty dollars. With the same name on on it. So they are a bit puzzled. They say, why is there such a big difference between two ones that are supposed to be the same, but they are not the same at all. They're completely different. So multiple channel town has been trying to obtain from European, with say authorities, you know, the fact that they would be recognized that the only one able to use the multiple channel, but we failed completely. We failed completely because we were not supported by the Italians. Politics. Because, of course, Montepulciano is a small town with eighteen thousand people living there, probably fifteen thousand voters, and Abuzzo is a province. With two point two million people living there, and, of course, as it carries much more weight politically than we do. So we've been a little bit abandoned there. Let's be honest, Abruzzo has been really victim of many earthquakes in the past, and this is an area which really needed some support from the government. So it was difficult to, to crucify them. So when you put everything together, we realized that it was a lost cause. So the only thing we could do is, talk to the American consumers through people like you, to explain that they should be able to discriminate. One small town which produces about ten million bottles of and, you know, that ages for three years and so on and so on with a, I would say, a rather strict, rules, and the, the, one hundred and twenty million bottles per year. So we we're talking about two different things. And then the we're not playing in the same in the same league because of course, you know, they they can sell wine at seven or eight dollars. We cannot. This is our production cost. So that's where I think it's important for for the consumer due to to discriminate one and the other. It's important. But, you know, I mean, the same thing. I mean, as an example, I remember, I was at the restaurant next to, to to the winery, a friend of mine, and there were some American guys there. And the owner of the restaurant who spoke, a few words that English was asking them, where are you from? And they say Washington. Oh, yeah. I say then have you seen the president? They say, no. No. We are in Washington. So the same thing applies in America. It's just a matter of explaining that to people. And the same way that the, you know, Italians made no difference between Washington and DC, you know, the same way of probably American consumers make a confusion between two namesake wines that are completely different and come from different areas. Okay. So one of the areas of being different is the word Nobile in there. Can you explain the history of that? Yeah. Nobile is actually a wonderful world. So, we wanted to name the wine Nobile, period, but it happens that it's an it's an objective. And according to European rules, you cannot, you cannot use an adjective to name a wine because otherwise, people will use the word prestigious or wonderful or whatever. So we, we had to attach to be able to maintain the word Nobile as registered as a trademark in the European community. So that's why it's so long. So unpronounceable. But in reality, the true name that the Italians would use is Vino Nobile, but Vino doesn't add anything to the story because we know it's wide. Otherwise, you know, just enough to see the bottle, but the word is Nobile. And Nobile means noble, and, which is actually a very positive, word. And why does it is it called Nobile? Because actually, that was the wine that was sold to the aristocracy during centuries since, I would say, the renaissance. Until the beginning of the twentieth century, European aristocracy in general and even great names of wine lovers in America, like, Jefferson, would would drink nobelay. That's what they would prefer as European wine after the French or together with the French. Actually, the perfect example is when you talk about voltaire as a French writer, talking about, indeed, coming back from the Eldorado, loaded with money. What do you what do you think he drinks? He drinks no, Laffitrochilde. He drinks Vino Nobili. You know, that's that's what the way it was perceived in the eighteenth century. Even the French would consider the nubile as being top wine in Europe. Unfortunately, you know, time has passes has passed, and, you know, the Brunilo has taken the lead and We we were among the three first DOCGs of Italy, together with Barolo and Bernelo, and we seem to have slipped into a kind of shadow, or we have been overshadowed by our neighbors. But still, the terroir is there. Still, the climate is there. And, you know, this is actually Montepulciano is certainly the mother of all Tuscan Fine wines historically. And it's the cradle of, of the society. And yet when I think about from from an American, perspective, Montte, Vino Nob de Monteciano, one hand, and Brunoo de Mont alcino are no harder or easier to pronounce one than the other. And yet there's this tremendous awareness of Bruno, and it's in a very similar situation. What is the region that produces or the area that produces or the producers who represent including you guys, the dominant visible brands of, you know, nobody in the United States. What are you guys doing to change the perception or to educate American consumers of these facts. We we create I mean, we have, of course, an institution, which is the consortium. But that's it's it's rather weak and disorganized. Recently, that's improved a lot, but during the last twenty years, it's been extremely silent and inefficient. Therefore, that's why we've been overshadowed by our neighbors because we didn't have anybody there that could speak English. We I think it's important when, you know, a large amount, if not most of what we produce is exported to the United States. So that we, you know, we we had a lack of competence clearly. But these decisions are being renovated. There is a new president, which you know, has given a new impulse and then there's some efforts which have been made and which I think are very positive. So I'm I'm I'm still it's an institution. It's not a private entity. So You know, it's always slow. It's something which, you know, we'll we'll we'll evolve, but it's not a rocket. Then we create the, a little group, where we have five, producers, which we consider being you know, good friends. And we do events together, and, you know, that it's Pocarelli, Poriciano, Salceto, Antinori, and Avianese. I would say all these names are are well known in the American market because we are everywhere there. And, and we try as much as we can to promote the denomination. And, and, and I think that to some extent, this is probably an easier way to act because, you know, it's a lighter structure And we do small events. We did a couple events in the past in the in the United States and another one in Milan. But of course, we should do more. And, yeah, we're working on it, definitely. I mean, this I think these are the two entities that two groups that are working for the denomination. And then, of course, each producer individually does his job to to promote the, the denomination. Yes, definitely. So as a parallel to that, I think of I think of Amerone and the historic families or the thirteen historic families. The the relationship between the Alliance and the Consosio are completely pacified. There is no conflict at all between, between the two of them. Actually, the consosio as, and trust me, being the the leader of the alliance to do the communication with the United States. So they they they realize that there are some synergies, and it's easier for the consortium to use the alliance sometimes to to to penetrate the American market because they do things, but, you know, they They rely on public funds and rely on public funds in Italy. It's always a very bureaucratic and complex matter. So they they the action is always somehow hindered by this kind of bureaucracy, and they need something lighter. So, you know, we are in charge of that for the denomination. So it's a kind we we don't have these kind of discussions of who's, who's the boss of the communication at all. There is a perfect understanding that, you know, we're sharing the same objective. So you've got some super powerful brands there, yours, an Antonori, just to name two that that you mentioned, that have visibility recognition, clout credibility, legacy heritage, authenticity, all that kind of stuff. So whatever has happened in the past hasn't gotten you where you need to be. And now we're in an environment, call it post COVID. I think it's gonna be post during COVID because it's not going away where we're we're seeing a transition to new audiences. The audience that in the past you guys have been trying to communicate to was my generation of baby boomers and the reality is, yeah, we still represent the largest consumption of fine wine in the US, but we're also dying off, and that's the reality. You have two new generations, millennials, and gen z coming who don't have any of the baggage that my generation has who may have recently discovered for themselves, things like Brunllo, and that the enoblete de Montepulciano can fall into the same category of discovery how are you reaching this new audience? And as a part of that question, I would ask what are the tools you're using in particular, I'm thinking about social media because that's where this audience communicates and touches wine. Yeah. I mean, definitely, we use social media and we use it a lot. Listening in, marina, that is a young lady who works for us as an intern is twenty four. She's in charge of this communication under this provision of Ciao and myself, but who is on the front line is every year, a young lady in that, in her twenties, that comes as an intern, and that we renew every every year. So we we always keep somebody talking to the social media that is in its twenties. And I think it's very important because they feel the mood. They actually watch TikTok. They know exactly what is reasonable. They know what's the music to put as a background. You know, of course, the the message is something which is issued by the management, of course. But The expression has to be performed by somebody young and and and pleasant that make people dream. I know this morning, for instance, Marina showed me a little video that she shot with, other young trainees. They had a picnic in the venue at, at the sunset, yesterday. And they they they shot a little, a real, or a little TikTok video, which she wanted to post. And I said, this is exactly what we want. This is It's people dream about Tuscany. Absolutely. Those are the pictures that work in the wine magazines, and everybody wants me. Oh, I wanna have that dinner in the vineyard. I don't know how they get the food to them hot, but still in all, it's beautiful. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, and You know, and when you see four young ladies, you know, they're enjoying life having a glass of wine and and a picnic, that's that's exactly what we do. Whether it works, hopefully. Yes. But you never know because, I mean, social media is like throwing a bottle in the sea. You never know who's gonna pick up. I would argue that point. And I think that's one of the, frankly, I don't mean this to be insulting, but a fundamental problems that our generation, if I can include you in mind, a baby boomer, doesn't recognize. There's a million metric. Yes, please. I mean, I would I'm I'm gonna I'm sixty five, so I'm probably, you know, I'm probably older than you are. You're not. Anyway, anyway, so my philosophy on marketing to people like that is Instead of getting them to come to you, go where they're already gathered. So there is a a very large, wine community around sites and tools like Vivino, like vinepair, like wine searcher when they're trying to to gather information. And a lot of these entities are now populating content that effectively is evergreen because once it's up, it stays there. And the big issue that I have and have done audits of this, I'll share a quote with you. Mike Osborne, who's the guy who runs or owns, runs wine dot com says only five percent of the wines sold on wine dot com are what I would call optimized. Meaning, they have high resolution images. They have the logo in black and white and white on black in color, various aspect ratios and resolutions and AI and EPS and all those kinds of things because if anybody's gonna be doing anything to promote your brand or the area or the type of wine, they need to have access to assets. Okay? So having an optimized set of assets is probably the most important tool. I know I'm shouting on a promontory here and I tell this to people all the time. It doesn't cost much money at all. It's something you're, intern internal staff. Can do. It's evergreen in terms of value, but it's not something that everybody does. Now I haven't done an audit of the category of, you know, Noble producers. I have looked at yours though, and you're you're in pretty good shape. But I think the the group needs to work on something like that. And that could be something that the consortium could do because it fits within their remit doesn't benefit one winery versus another, but it Basically, it fills the advertising component of what OCM or EU, agricultural funded money is. Is that anything you guys are working on? Are you aware of that? Is that a priority for you? I mean, this is definitely something that I'm gonna bring to, to the next meeting of of the alliance, because I think I think it's supported that we do it. I think we will talk to the consulship about it, but it's gonna be a slower process. Now we went through the exercise. See how, you know, is in charge of that. She's you know, Adam and you have things done properly. Yeah. I, I, I, I know you. We've seen the, we've seen all the wines that are used to afford. Everything has been cleaned up, has been trimmed. You know, the, the, there's a consistent see between the message in one and the message on the other, even if they are slightly different because they they address different different kind of people. But, yeah, we we we we are very very, I would say curating this aspect of communication. And, and Ciao has been doing an admirable job there. I have to say. She's the one who's been cleaning that completely because it was a mess. Let's be honest. I mean, you know, when you produce wine, you you use so much focus on what you do that sometimes you you neglect the most important thing is to indicate what you do to the people who are supposed to buy it. And then, and, you know, you invest so much effort and so much money in production that sometimes, you know, you you you forget the most important thing is that you need to find somebody to buy your wine because otherwise you're not gonna drink it on your own. So you have to you have to communicate. I saw a great quote this morning, in the news. I forget who it was, but they oh, it was somebody from Chile. And they said making great wine is easy, selling wine is hard. And you're right. So what is the what are you guys doing with the American trade who are really the middle middlemen between your communications and consumers to some degree to educate them whether it's staff at wine and spirit shops, whether it's Soms is kind of a cat it's it's an interesting challenge now post COVID because a lot of people lost their jobs and that role has changed a lot. But on premise, obviously, is very important for you guys. What are you doing to impact the trade? No. I'm not talking consumers now. But the trade who has to tell this story to their customers who are your ultimate buyer. We we are a little bit peculiar in the sense that we are only imported. Right? So but we don't spend money in ads on when I advocate or want big data. We are too small anyway, so we wouldn't carry enough weight to to be attractive there. What we've decided to do is to create a team, which, you know, it's four and a half people working for us. Two are based in, in, in New York. One is in Florida. Another one in California and, halftime guy working for us in Texas. And these guys, what do they do? They go along with the sales reps. They actually teach the sales reps. They explain what we are to the reps. And with a sales rep, they go and visit the customers. And then they talk about what we do. And, you know, they they have the wine tasted and so on with an explanation. Bear in mind, your sales rep, you are, I don't know, thirty five or forty five you gotta book in your hand with something like twelve twelve hundred SKU. How long can you talk about it? To a guy who is in a restaurant and, you know, as people queuing in front of his door to actually push wine that he doesn't wanna buy. So you you need to find someone who is a kind of support for the sales rep that it reminds to the guy, that he has a product that is talking about Avianese, which is, you know, certified, organic, certified by dynamic, vegan, which, you know, it's a state bottle because, of course, every single wine we produce is produced exclusively with our own grapes. And so on and so on at a price that when you compare it to other equivalent Tuscon SanJovese is a third of what you would pay, Bruno. That's basically what what we do on a daily basis. And what we've seen is that, you know, our sales have been growing steadily, COVID, no COVID, throughout the years, non stop. But we can see that the amount of sales we made in the in, in the United States And we see that growing that figures, are turnover growing year after year. And during the COVID, these guys that we have on the spot have been able actually to shift the action from the, on trade, do the, off trade in, in no time because, of course, the demand was there. You see, the, the main difference we've observed between United States and China regarding COVID is that the day China was hit by COVID, everything stops. Because Chinese would drink wine, banquets or Asians or gatherings or whatever, but they will never actually buy a bottle of wine and drinking, watching the equivalent of Netflix. That would never happen. So the market collapse in America, there there's this habit to drink wine. You come from the office. You're tired. You want to enjoy yourself at a nice dinner with your wife. You just grab a bottle. And if you don't go to the restaurant, you do a curbside pickup, and you bring the bottle at home, and you drink it there. And actually the demand didn't botch actually grew. And we've been selling much more than what we would have expected during the COVID, but on a completely different channel. As if the river had moved into another place, but the flow was remaining the same. Yeah. That's my point. Right. Where where the the in the industry is different. The customers are different the way it's purchased. It's different where it's purchased and consumed or different than what they were before. And with everything changing, you have to change some of the the the things that you do. Let me ask you a question. Are you familiar with an entity or two entities now they're the same entity, but seven fifty is one and the other is Provee. Yeah. We work with them. Now it's Provee. Of course, we've been one of the first ones to actually join Provee. The very first one, to be honest. Yes, we we work with these guys. This is very important for the American market because This is a platform that I would say most of the professionals are using today, and they will in my opinion, they will use it more and more that simplifies their life, makes it easier. That digitalized part of the work, which was done, I would say, you know, with as usual trolley and the six bottles in it, which is a little bit old fashioned. And, I've done that. You know, I've run I've I've run this business personally myself because, when I go to the state, I do I do the job with my staff, because I want to understand how it works. You know, you you have to do everything from the soil to, to the customer. You've got to to see the journey. And what I understand is that there's a change, things to these, kind of, new platforms, And, we we basically, I I remember when I traded with a young lady who was in charge of the ads in in in Provi. We were among probably the first people to actually call them. And say we want to we want to work with you guys in this new platform. Excellent. Good. Good. Well, I I asked if it was a leading question because I I feel strongly that that's the kind of point, an inflection point where you can influence a whole lot of people very efficiently. You know, it it was the reason why we my former agency, we were one of the largest, trade advertisers and Bev media was so important because everybody used the beverage books. Well, that now has become seven fifty and now Provia has bought seven fifty and there are other tools and services that get added to it. But in all cases, you're dealing with the people who make the decisions at the point of time when they're doing the buying. And the parallel to that is label recognition technology on wine searcher and also on Vivino so that when somebody scans a bottle of wine and they're physically in the store, you know, two things. One, they're interested in it and two, they can actually buy it at that point in time, generally speaking. Those are powerful opportunities that I don't see people really taking advantage of. It's wonderful to hear that you're, working with ProVie I see them doing some wonderful things. In fact, I'm gonna be in interviewing, the Taylor Katz, the president in an upcoming event. Alright. Let me kind of bring this to a close. Vino nobile de Montipocciano is one of my favorite wines. I know personally it it's a challenge to explain it to people, and and I know it about as well as I think most journalists do are, you know, Psalms and and things like that. You guys are doing a bunch of stuff, which is great. Leading the pack of what we talked about. What is the one thing the trade and recognize most of the listeners to the show are the trade? What is the one thing the trade can put to use immediately? To help with your mission to grow the category of the ennobylated multiple Chiano forward. That's actually, a difficult one. You know, shift. I think that the the American professionals should actually shift parading. They should start. There's a misperception about the Vino nobilene. It's it's it's actually quite funny. You know, you send me this little document where you said the questions that were to be asked and so on. And I read you know, you're talking about the, the different rules of the, the nobelle. And the American would say, there is a minimum of seventy percent of sangiovese in the nobelle. Right? We don't say that here. We say there is a faculty to blend up to thirty percent of another grape variety in the nubile. And this is where, you know, the misunderstanding is we don't need to put Melo in the San Juoese. We don't need to put Cabernet sauvignon We don't need to put anything else. We could put canayolo if we want because it's it's a it's a local thing or we can put mamolo, which is quite interesting because another, I would say, or talk to the scrape. But of course, the king of Tuscon is Sanjobeza. So if you produce a good Sanjobeza in multiple channel, why would you blend it with something else? So I think what is important is to see that if, actually, we produce hundred percent San Giovanni in multiple channel. Why is it that one acre of Montalcino cost ten times more that one acre of multiple channel. I think that's an existential question for you. No. It is not an existential question for me. Absolutely not. And and again, This is this is just the opposite because when you are in the trade, what are you interested in buying? Something when you realize that you buy it at a cheaper price that is net asset value. Otherwise, you know the buyer, your seller. Alright? And what I see is that the American trade is buying what they should sell, and they don't buy what they should buy. Wow. Can you explain that another way? This is very interesting. I I what I'm trying to say, I'm a trader, right, by by nature. Alright? I'm I was not born in a wine business. Right. You came from shipping, I believe. Right? Yeah. Exactly. We're shipping freight. You know, we we we're trading freight. So there's a price you buy and the price you sell. So when you have a commodity, which is a Tus Why would you pay three times the price, what you can get for a third? It's a nonsense. So people say, yeah, you say that. I mean, you know, this is a typical reply, y'all, but because you're the victim, you've been overshadowed. No. The victim is the poor guy who pays three times the price. What he could pay. That's it. He's the victim. The American consumer, you're talking. He doesn't know it, but I do know. And I can prove it. Yeah. Yeah. The consumers and the professional because there is a margin to make. And of course, you know, you, you realize that the, there there's, price ratio between two products that are comparable. And again, I mean, nothing against Bruno because I drink a lot of it. I mean, Stella Camperlto is for me probably the best sangiovese you can find in the world. Alright? So it's not even, yeah, I live in Montalcino, actually, and I work in multiple channel. So I, I, I'm a keen Bernelo drinker. But I do realize that if I do invest money today, what do I buy? Clearly, I buy Montecino. No. I buy multiple channel because then There is a possibility that actually the spread between the two narrows. And that's what we're betting all. Any trader would bet on a narrowing trade between an narrowing spread between Brunllo and nobody. Okay. Let me get it. Alright. We could talk for hours. And, actually, I think we did the last time. But, my guest this week is Max Dezerobe, who is, the principal along with, his wife. Virginiay severus of, Avenue Nacy winery. And, we've been talking about, Vino Nobola de Montepiciana this this week. Max, thank you very much for being on the show. I appreciate your sharing the time. No. I mean, I should be the one thanking you for giving me this opportunity. It was really a great time, and thank you so much for your interest in Navili. Well, you're welcome. Let me answer my own question about what's the big takeaway that everybody should be selling Vino Nobule de Montopulciano, not against, Bruno or not against any counties, but simply before because it's a good deal and the the sellers, restaurants as well as the, retail stores. Can make more money doing so. You're right. Let me add just one thing. Everybody tells you should never compare your wine with your neighbors because you should actually promote its intrinsic qualities wrong. Because the old profession does compression. The simple fact that you have a score means that it's a competition. So this is, in my opinion, this is also something which has to change. Everybody I talk to regarding the nobelie? One way or another. Explicitly, implicitly refers to the two other wines from Tuscany that are based on sangiovese. It has never happened to me that I had a conversation with a journalist, with a trader. Talk about the Vino nobile without having the brunello sent back to my face. And this is why I think that we should be very clear about it. There is no difference between one and the other. They are very good wines in both cases, and the main difference between the Bernelo and the Nobula is the price. And that should be a very appealing, selling message to American consumers and the trade for that matter. So, once again, Max, thank you very much for joining us. This is Steve Racing. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back next week with another edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. We hope you enjoyed today's episode brought to you by the wine to wine business forum twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth twenty twenty two in verona Italy. Remember, the second early bird discount on tickets will be available until September eighteenth. For more information, please visit us at wine to wine dot net. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing, we would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian wine podcast dot com.