Ep. 1186 Kathryn La Tour | Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

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I'm Steve Ray, your host, and this podcast features interviews with the people actually making a difference in the Italian wine market in America. Their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. And I'll be adding a practical focus to the conversation based on my thirty years in the business. So if you're interested in not just learning how, but also how else, then this pod is for you. Hi. And welcome to this week's show. This is Steve Ray. I'm your host for Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. And I'm pleased to have as a guest this week Catherine Latour, professor Catherine Latour of Cornell University. Catherine, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Steve. We connected a few years ago, and I forget exactly how, but, you've been gracious enough to let me give a lecture in your, spring course at Cornell. Tell me I I was talking with somebody about that and and happened to be another Cornell. But tell me about the class and what the focus is and and what your objectives are. Sure. Well, the class is titled wine marketing, and it's offered in this spring semester, and it's available to both undergraduate and graduate students. And the purpose of the class is that Cornell, as you know, has a Viticulture phonology program And then in the hotel school, we have, like, a wines of the world and wine tasting and pairing classes. But there isn't a class or there hasn't been a class on the business of wine at the university. So I developed the class really to be kind of in the middle between, you know, what we do in the hotel school as far as services and hospitality, and then connecting that to people that are learning to grow grapes and make wine And if they graduate and do that, like, how do they actually connect to the consumer that wants to potentially buy their wines? So it's a it's a fun class because I do get students from across the university at different levels that are interested in the wine world. And it's become not just the class for those going into the wine industry. It's also last semester I had somebody. And you were in the class less year. That was going into the cannabis industry. So I I think that it does, have some, you know, small business implications for other industries that are going after, like, some the more artisanal consumer and how do you particularly a highly regulated industry like wine and also cannabis and, you know, hard cider. You know, so there's a lot of other, industries that people once they take my class, go into afterwards. So it's it's a fun this is a fun group. Well, Cornell has your your in the hotel school, which obviously focuses on hospitality wine has been a big part of it. And and one of the the things I think that are, definitive about Cornell is the association with the Mariani family. You wanna talk to me about that? And, obviously, they have a restaurant on campus, which is pretty nice. I ate it the last night. Right. Are we, so the Mariani family has endowed the the Vanfees chair that I I currently am holding. And they've been a great, source of intellectual, you know, capital for the hotel school. You know, Christina Mariani May has come to my classes. Last couple of years, unfortunately, it's been over zoom because of COVID. But giving insights into, you know, changes that her family has made as far as the development of research on San Diego AC and the different clones that they've developed at their location, but also as they've moved from just not just making wine, but also moving into more of the luxury hospitality with their Castello Bap fee resorts and getting into things like the Baltimore vinegar and other aspects. So they've been a great, you know, insight, and a lot of our students have gone, you know, as after the graduations to visit Italy, and that's one of the places. They always come back discussing how they've had such a great time getting insights about the wine industry and also Italy as they've visited there. Cornell's up in ithaca, and it's the finger lakes, and it's a prime wine producing area in the United States. I guess it it gets overshadowed by California, but it certainly has a long heritage. And yet you have this sponsorship by Italy. So where does New York State Wine fit into the overall curriculum, if you will. It's it's only one course, but still. Well, I mean, it's a huge part of the class because, one of the key aspects of the class is that I team the students up with different wineries to work on, like, a, a marketing problem that they're facing. And we also, you know, we have in the past couple of years focused on the finger lakes and different things of, obviously, with COVID, like, how do they attract keep attracting consumers when they can't visit the wineries and different ways of marketing the wine. So the the local wineries and, have been a huge support for the class as well. So we we tried to do we were able to do this past year, a field trip, of the finger lakes wineries. And Megan Frank, who is both, like, a former TA and also a good friend and and currently, VP of doctor Constantine Frank winery, you know, always has, given us a a great experience and come to the class talking about the wines that they have developed, but also she's really been forefront in doing things such as, moving from the quirks to different kinds of closures for their wines and also adding more experiential elements to the winery visits. I don't know if you remember, like, ten years ago, the New York State, when you went to winery up here, you basically come in and you grab indicate like what five wines you wanted, and it would either be a free tasting or maybe a dollar for per wine that you tasted. And there that was really the experience that was offered. And so we've evolved. We're not quite at Napa Valley experiential standards yet, but you know, we have added things like, winery tours and food pairings, the different experiential elements to the the winery tours up here. So it's really kind of evolved in the last decade. Yes. I remember actually being in, what the you had that as the last class of the of the season. And, one of the students, had Fox Run vineyards as a focus with Scott Osborne. I met Scott a number of times when I've been up in the area And I think he's doing some really cool stuff. So, a shout out to Scott. Tell me about use him as an example in in that winery. How does that connect with, your classic Cornell? And how does that make it more meaningful or Well, Scott has been a great, also a great friend to our class. And from the first year, I taught this, and I think I've now going on probably about eight or nine years teaching this class. Early on, I had a student group work with him about the tasting room visitorship to Fox Run. And at that point in time, they weren't really collecting data on who's coming in and coming out of, the vineyard. And so the students helped them set up a survey to collect that information on sites. And and so, obviously, things have evolved a lot since then as far as, like, how they've collected data about their guests, but that's just like one example of a group project that the students in my class have worked on over the years. And what I I try to do with these, setting student groups up with the vineyard owners or a wine brand, is that they get to see, like, how it actually works. So we can talk, like, theoretically, like, how how do you market and, you know, how does the wine industry work. But until they get to see, like, what are the actual decisions and what keeps the vineyard owner you know, up at night and worrying about issues. And they I've had situations where they've worked with, owners like in Long Island that they've had to sign like a NDA agreement for because everything that they're talking about is so, you know, confidential and protected. So they really get, a really, I think, a nice insight into what's going on, into the wine industry and some of the the factors that they they think about. Catherine, about yourself. So you've been through WSET and, the Court of Master songs. I don't know if you've been through it, but I think you've you've taken some courses there. But your background is with consumer psychology and how people move from novices to more educated consumers. We're talking about a practical connection for students with the actual real world of wine. Talk about how your academic interests have coalesced around this whole wine issue. Sure. I think there's this general belief that if we get, consumers to be more educated, they'll be more discerning. They'll pay more for their wine. They'll buy more wine. They'll become more loyal to wine. So the question is, like, how do you get consumers to really become, you know, sign on to become a wine lover? And, you know, how do you get them to that point where, you know, that's, you know, their preferred drink is wine over, you know, other beverages. And so my research has been about you know, getting understanding the way in which industries, like the wine industry, it seeks to educate potential consumers to become more, expert in the way that they taste and appreciate wine. And so I have gone through. I'm certified Smoye through the Court of Master Smoye's and gone through the blind tasting, you know, with their grids and using and Noble's wine aroma wheel to better describe verbally the taste of wine. And I'm currently, finishing, hopefully, completing my WST diploma. So potentially, in the future, I might go back to the master of wine program. But also, you know, they have not the same kind of grid, but a very similar structure in how they teach students to describe wine. And and the idea is that You know, they want people if they're you have a glass of wine that there's this common language and lexicon. So looking at the acidity or the the alcohol levels and the different flavor profiles that, you know, people from you know, different countries, you know, have basically the same way of which they're approaching the wine. But my research question is, is this when we're looking at teaching consumers, you know, there might be a different way that we want to be approaching the way that they become more expert or the the way that they learn about wine, that using the analysis and the verbal lexicon can kind of lead some consumers to kind of tune out to the whole line education aspect. And so my research has looked at what ways can we engage consumers that leads to better retention, and memory of their experiences, but does it in a way that also leads to more enjoyment of the wine. And so I've kind of moved away from you know, up with this analysis and the lexicon that the wine aroma wheel offers, it was initially helpful because we don't really have overall a good vocabulary or kind of, like, how to describe wine aromas, but common. Yeah. Common. Yeah. We we have, unfortunately, we have a great one, and it's just so many things that mean not do not mean the same thing to other people. I think that's part of the problem. I I was talking about saute gooseberries. I I don't know what a gooseberry is. Or cat pee or the, you know, some of the descriptors that are used for, some of the varietals. So I I think if we kinda get past that, the language and try to engage them in in different ways. So I've looked at things like drawing, you know, what does the taste of wine look like to you and having people, you know, kind of going back to kindergarten where you give them a bunch of crayons and you give them the taste of the wine and say, well, you know, at the left hand side is, like, when you initially smell it, the right hand side is, you know, the the finish, you know, explain how that kind of taste to you evolves. And when people do it in in different ways, they could you know, draw like a big bubble or they might it might remind them of, like, their grandmother's, perfume. So they might, you know, draw something with their grandmother. But in making these connections, I think they find something that is more tangible and they can remember it better and they relate more to the wine. Personal too, I think. Yeah. Which is I think one of the problems that we're dealing with, the sense of smell is not as codified as many other senses that we have or or is is defined. And there's so much variation between, well, even culturally, starting with culturally, but also, language and and a whole bunch of other issues. So but going back to the the beginning, the question about saying, alright. You know, wine has been not doing well. Speards have been growing. Beer has been hurting, RTDs and seltzers have been an area that that have been growing. But wine is kind of been flat. And I we know that there's always been this kind of issue that people felt that it was only for the elite where you needed to be invited in or there's a code or a secret handshake or that if you don't know enough, you know, you should be embarrassed about that. And I don't know where that came from, but it it it it kind of exists. So the response has been, as you said, education. But when you think about that from a marketing perspective, wait a second. So you wanna grow a category and you're gonna make your future customers learn about it. That's a requirement for doing it. I don't know that that makes a lot of sense. What do you think about that? Well, I mean, there there's a couple issues with that strategy too, is that you know, when once consumers learn more about wine, the more, they wanna try different types of wine. So if you're like the brand that, you know, educates them and, you know, everything there is about riesling, it was like, well, If you're in the finger lakes, well, aren't they gonna explore, Germany and Austria and, you know, other ass areas that make recently? So, you know, with education comes that variety seeking and they wanna explore. So it's you know, from a a brand perspective, it it's hard to kinda create that loyalty unless you have, like, a really unique, top notch, taste experience that they keep wanting to come back to. And if I think if you give them that special experience. And you're the first ones to kinda implant that, you know, desire to learn more that they'll remember that and come back to you, but they'll they will explore. I mean, that's the whole idea about, you know, going on a wine journal. Yeah. Italian wine podcast. If you think you love wine as much as we do, then give us a like and a follow anywhere you get your pods. That that I get. Yeah. I'm I think from just from a pure branding from a academic perspective, and the concept of brand loyalty, it's kind of that that could be true in spirits, but the opposite is true in wine because like, oh, I tasted this. This is really good. I like it. What else you got that's like that? Is it when and it's like kind of says I I don't wanna buy the same thing again even though I know it. So brand loyalty is a very, very different thing in the wine category where people might be drinking in a, a region or a style or a variety. People drinking Kianti, for example, from from Tuscany or Barolo from Italy just to use Italian examples or riesling, as you said, from New York State, Oscar, or or Germany, or Australia for that matter. It's kind of a very different animal. And, it's it's one that I've been involved in it most of my professional life, and I can't get a handle on it yet. I I think well, I mean, I I just I was looking at your notes. One thing you said is that doesn't mean that we need to simplify and dumb down, you know, the marketing materials to engage consumers. And I think that is a big mistake because I think the consumers today are are, you know, very widely read and they, they they don't like to be taught down to. So I I think what the wine industry needs to do is find a way to engage them in different ways and make it exciting and to kind of invoke their curiosity. So they want to know more. And I think trying to dump it down, you know, really is makes the consumer feel like you don't appreciate them or, you know, you don't think that they're worthy of, you know, having a relation So Yeah. No. I I I get it. And I, I I agree a hundred percent. I one of the things that I found, and and again, I live in a practical world, you know, the the old joke, a buddy of mine once told me, and it's a wonderful one. He was working at the Boca Ratan Hotel and Country club, and they had this, like, very tall German guy named Hans, who was the sommelier with the black frock coat and the taste one. And then then he asked them very humbly, you know, Hans. What's the best bottle of wine in Hans's response was the one I just sold? That we we right? And I I I do that with all of my lectures that that we're in a commercial business. Okay? And people don't need to be qualified to be able to buy our stuff anymore than they need to be qualified to buy a particular kind of pasta. But what I'm seeing, and it's been really reinforced or empowered by things like the internet is the importance of discovery on their own. So it's learning something. It's not necessarily new, but it's new to them. And now you have the tools that enable them to share it immediately and almost in real time. And so what we've been doing a lot of is disclosing things in short bits. So call them factoids, if you will, from the old USA today way of, presenting information kind of graphically, but in little snippets. And that's what people like. Did you know this? One fact that they can say when here's a bottle of wine, this guy did that. So it's the story behind it, and people can dig into it more in-depth as they get further into a category, a series, or an individual wine. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a perfect way to kinda engage them because once they find out one piece of information, they can share it with their friends over that bottle of wine at dinner. And then that provokes the conversation and makes them feel like they it was something that other people didn't know, and they feel good about themselves. And they want to kinda continue that journey to understand more about the wine. Okay. So imagine and I don't think you need to imagine this. Why don't you think back to a recent moment when you're having dinner with some new people? New to you discovery. Okay. And, the subject of wine comes up. You know, people are probably thinking, oh, well, here's an expert. I don't wanna say the wrong thing, and you don't wanna be you know, the lecturer at that. Nobody wants, you know, electron. How do you handle a situation like that? I I look at that as kind of a microcosm of the industry. Right? I mean, that's, like I said, does come up, quite a bit that and You mentioned also in your script about Tim Haney, and he has this one survey. And I've I've seen it other places as well where you ask people, like, how do they like their coffee? Do they like their their coffee black or, you know, with cream and sugar? And I think getting them to talk about, like, their taste preferences overall and, like, the type of, you know, beverages that they enjoy or even like the sheets that they have, like, whether it's soft or rough, you know, that can give some insight into, like, what kind of wines they might enjoy. And you know, if they start talking about, like, what drinks they like or what kind of wines they've had in the past, then that kinda opens up, you know, a way of discussing it it winds and that relates to their own personal preference Well, a lot of Psalms do that, which is, you know, get to know the customer by asking some leading questions that give them some insights. But when you think about it professionally, you really don't have a lot of time to do that. You're looking for queues. And and and you You can't sit them down and give them a questionnaire to get a sense of what their flavor profiles are. You do know what the pairings are for a particular restaurant, the dishes with the the wines that are available there. But where does a wine pairing fit into this? Whole thing. I think I mean, wine pairing is a a fun way to, you know, get people to experience wines maybe in in different ways. So I've seen, like, sought turns being paired with, like, every from appetizers all the way to dessert and, you know, ways which you wouldn't normally think that, you know, a soft term should be a, you know, something that you have with the the middle course. So I think it's a, and it's a nice way to showcase the line, but it's also, you know, a good way for the consumers to relate to, well, you know, this wine like a Soviet Blanc, you know, goes well with salads or green vegetables, and then it can think about, like, how they might use that wine, like, in, in the future, or, you know, dinner party or something like that. Okay. Let's switch gears a little bit. And, one of the interviews I did earlier this year was with Deborah Brenner, who is the founder and, kind of, guiding light in, women of the vine and spirit is called now. It used to be women of the vine. It's a it's a movement that's really gained momentum. We're seeing it. We were discussing it last night about how even on some government forms, the choice of pronouns, which seems odd to me, but there it is. How has the issues of DEA? Do do they play a role in your course? Is it an issue for the students? And thinking that, you know, a lot of your students are from different countries. It's not just American kids. It's certainly not just New York state kids. So where where does, DeI fit into, the Cornell Court cable? Well, in my course, Well, I I just as a backup. I am on the advisory board of the Women of Divine, and I Oh, okay. Great. I'm on the scholarship committee. So I spent the summer reviewing applications to you know, determine which, students that had submitted application materials would get funded. And so that's always a fun aspect to be able to, you know, put my time towards helping women in advance in the, beverage. Industry. And so it's has evolved beyond just wine that that it's more broader now. It's I think it's women of the vine and alcohol industry. So it's has moved beyond the wine industry. And as far as, like, the DEAI, I mean, I I think that I know the students in my classes that are, mostly now gen z are very much more open to diversity and equity issues in the workplace. And it's, you know, something Like, like, it's not an issue for them because they've grown up with it not being an issue. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's not really an issue for them because they expect it. And I think it's really more of an issue for the industries that haven't recognized it and involved it because these are the, you know, the future people that are gonna be working for the for them so they need to find a way to reach out and, you know, make their workplaces, you know, see market it to the needs of the gen z students. Understood. Well, I fit in in the category. Everybody always points too well. It used to be an industry of old white men. And and frankly, it still is. You go to w s w a event, and it's all much old people like me. We see that changing a lot. Where do the students come from? And I don't necessarily mean countries, but what are the interests that the students that take your class have, what brings them to that class? What stimulates them? What what what triggered their interest in in wine, either as a subject or wine as a career? That's a great question because it it what's exciting is there are so many diverse backgrounds of the students. So, you know, I have, like I said, the the Viticulture and analogy students that have never had a marketing or business class before, but they are hoping when they graduate to open their own winery or cidery, and they have no idea of, like, how they would sell their product to the consumers. So they have very little understanding. They have a lot of understanding of how the line is made and what goes into that process and the differences between the different varietals and what, you know, grows better in the finger lakes compared to other areas. But that business side that they're you know, don't have as much background. And then the other students I have are from the host hotel side, and they've chosen, like, a food and beverage is their concentration, and they really want to work either in a hotel or restaurant wine program, or they wanna start their own restaurant, or they want to work at a winery or start their own winery, and they want to understand more about the wine industry. And so they might not have as much background about you know, how do you actually grow the grapes or make the wine? But they know a lot more because they've because of the hotel school, they take a lot more of the business classes. So they have more of that business perspective, you know, to add to the discussion. So when I put the groups together, I I usually try to, you know, get people students from the hotel school that have more of the business side and then pair them up with Viticulture analogy students that might have more, maybe, connections to the the wine world, but don't know as much about the the business side of things. So it's a it's interesting class because we do have, like and I've we also have a chemical engineering program that had students come that are interested in that aspect of the business, like the chemical components of wine. So it's, you know, it does really attract a wide variety of student interests. So it's it's It's my favorite class to teach that. So what does Cornell do for career, opportunities for the kids? When when they're kids when students when they're when they're taking your class, some of them are graduate students, but I think most of them, their fourth year, right, seniors or, further along in their thing and then going out into the job market. Do you guys have any programs to help the students in, practical world and finding jobs in the wine industry. Well, we have a office of student services, and that's like their full time job is to help, you know, kind of pair companies up with students that are looking for jobs in a particular area. And a lot of students, you know, in my class, with the wine class, or I also teach luxury marketing. I bring in a lot of guest lectures like yourself, and and so they make the connection with the people that come into class that way. And so that I think that helps them. To get snow people in the industry and figure out what opportunities medics is for them when they graduate. We're talking with professor Catherine Lattour of, Cornell University. And if people wanna contact you or reach out to you, how would they do that? Probably best via my email, and that's, k a l two seven six at cornell dot edu. I like to, one of the things I learned, when I was in school, I was a journalism major. It's called communication arts, and that cornell was the idea that to to bring it all home. But what what's the big takeaway that you can write an article and people are not gonna remember all the different things that you talked about, but they might come away with one big idea. So as we've been talking today, what's the one big takeaway do you think people listening to this might come away with, and then might share with others who have similar interests? I think it would be to think differently about the way you market wine and then invoke curiosity on the consumer and get them to engage in wine that is more personal and reflects like how they would enjoy the wine. And they'll talk down to them and get them to you know, think about, like, how lying can enhance their experiences and their relationships. Cool. Okay. Well, big thank you to, Catherine Latour of Cornell University for being my guest this week. Catherine, thank you for joining us. Thank you, Steve. That's so much fun. And thank you so much for coming to our class also. Yeah. I get a great deal of joy out of it. And it's always nice to to come back to campus. And this is Steve Ray signing off this week for how to get US market ready. With Italian wine people. We didn't focus today on Italian wine necessarily, but it certainly came up, to the Mariani family. But tune in next week for next week's edition. We'll have another interesting interview on get US market ready with Italian wine people. I'm Steve Ray, and have a good week. Thanks again for listening. This is Steve Ray with Get US market ready with Italian wine people on the Italian wine podcast.