Ep. 1219 Alice Wong IWA| Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Some of you have asked how you can help us while most of us would say we want wine. Italian wine podcast is a publicly funded sponsor driven enterprise that needs the Moola. You can donate through Patreon or go fund me by heading to Italian wine podcast dot com. We would appreciate it Oh, yeah. Thanks for tuning in to Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. On the Italian wine podcast. I'm Steve Ray, your host, and this podcast features interviews with the people actually making a difference in the Italian wine market in America. Their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. And I'll be adding a practical focus to the conversation based on my thirty years in the business. So if you're interested in not just learning how, but also how else, then this pod is for you. Hello. I'm Steve Ray, and welcome to this week's edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. My guest today is Alice Wong, who is the founder and principal of Vinitude Asia. Alice, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Steve. We're recording this interview today in verona at the wine to wine conference, wine to wine, wine number two, w y n e, dot net. If you want some more information at it, And Alice, are you gonna be speaking, at this event? Yes. I did actually yesterday. Oh, you did? Yes. So I missed it. I apologize. It was a long time. She talked to me. Yesterday, it was about how to, I was a moderator for Paulingham in session. Oh. So it was about how to make your business stand out in this noisy world, how to make sure people remember your brand and your products. It was a fantastic session. Probably did a great job. Tell us about the the functions of your company and and what services you provide. Okay. So we do both, certified and one on one, wine coaching. So, essentially, I'm a wine investor and educator. But not only we do certified courses for WSets and also the VIA via, Italian wine, maestro course. But we also do one on one coaching, privatized customized wine education because there are people out there who like to get a certification for their wine education, but there are some people who just want something customized for their special interests. So we do that as well. And then we have a quite, pretty good, feedback from our clients for those. It can be individuals. It can also be for corporate training. So one education and multiple aspects. So both consumer and the trade? Yes. Correct. Cool. Okay. So and then you also do, well, just talked about events. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Since I taught since I mentioned that one education come in different forms, besides, promoting wines and the culture of wine in in a classroom setting, we also do a lot of events, to let people understand wine and appreciate wines in a more casual and laid back settings. So, yes, we do events. My specialty is obviously in Italian wines. So I am fortunate to get to work quite closely with the, consulate of Italy in Hong Kong and also the Italian trade agency in Hong Kong. So a lot of our Italian wine events are with official agencies, government agencies in Hong Kong. So reaching out to the bigger market. And also, I also work quite closely with the auto AutoJ consortium to work with both on trade education, as well as media promotions. Okay. So auto allergy, there's probably, I think, another hundred and twenty different consortium in Italy. Are you interested in working with others? Have you worked with others? Is that part of your plan? And how different is it working with a consortium versus commercial brands? I did actually work quite closely within the Ebruso consourcio before COVID. When every year we used to have a wine fair in Hong Kong, where Vinataly also have a big room to promote Italian wines, and they work with, several consortio, depending on the theme for that year. So I remember the last one we had was in two thousand nineteen. When the Abursault Consacio had a big presence for for Phoenix to lean in Hong Kong for that year. So, yes, I'm open to work with, any consortium. It just happened. The opportunity came when that was the theme for that year. Okay. So let's let's dive into the, you know, Asia, culture, wine, Italian wine, pronunciation, all of this. What are some of the I just named some of them. What are some of the challenges of two? What are the more important challenges that you face? And how do you deal with them? I think well, I think it goes step by step. There are there are, wine drinkers who are beginners, and there are ones who are more sophisticated. So we're talking about different levels of challenges. I think in terms of the overall broad, impression of Italian wines, that at basic levels, some people are still confused, European wines, French, Italian, they are all the same. That's the first level of challenge. When they do get past that, well, maybe not so much French in Italian, but Spanish and Italian. That can be a little bit tricky. And then when it goes to a bit deeper level, I think people do under start to understand basic Italian wise to bigger regions such as Kianti, Bernelo, Barolo, but then they stop there. So for us, it's a lot of work to try to help one of us explore other regions of Italy, but then that's when a challenge comes because geographically, there are twenty regions of Italy. So the first thing is a lot of people don't understand where they where the wines are from, the north, the south, the central, especially, I guess, wines in the south, it can become quite complicated because they don't understand the geography. That's the first part. They mostly know about Tuscany because of Florence, or they know about the north, because Milan. So these are big cities. But when you go past the south besides Rome, they might have heard of Sicily. But that's about it. So then there are really other great wines in the south from Sardinia, from Campania. But then they got kind of lost. Where exactly are they from? And then to so the geography is the first thing that, makes makes it complicated to help people understand Italian wines. And the second, like you said, is the pronunciation because the name of the wines are too long. When the consumers go to the restaurants and you see the wine list, they may think it's the name of the wine, but they're actually pointing at Russell. It just means red wine. So some people are intimidated when they see a really, really long name on the wine list, and they tend to not they will just skip it. So that they won't get embarrassed. So that's the second challenge is really the pronunciation. They see a really long Italian name. They don't know what it is, and, it's just, intimidating for them. So the Italian ones that are sold, and let's talk about Hong Kong specifically. Do they have, Are they translated, or is it the same labels that you see in? The same labels. Yes. Because Hong Kong is quite bilingual. It's just that we're looking at Italians. So there's a those are not English. So that's the different thing. Okay. One of my beliefs is, for American consumers, what they wanna know is what does the wine taste like in words that I understand? Mhmm. And number two, will it go with what I'm making for dinner tonight because eighty percent of the wine purchased in the US is consumed within twenty four hours of purchase. How do people in China consume wine? It's not kind of this historic cultural food wine partnership repairing? That's the interesting point. I I think there are two ways to look at it. In terms of wine, we don't, in Asia, for the most part. We don't really have a culture of, growing growing grapes, making wines. So it's a foreign culture for us. So, and, and, obviously, these days They do make wines now in China and in Japan, but that's still a new thing. We don't grow up drinking wines to have a wine culture. It is something that's quite new to most of us. So it depends. Some people drink wine looking for, foreign experience, a culture experience. So they do think about, oh, tonight, I'm gonna make pasta. So let me get an Italian wine. Or or pizza, I'll get itoni wise versus if they are gonna make, mac and cheese tonight, I consider that that American food, they will get American wines. So for them, instead of basic home cooking or making Chinese food, Let me get some Italian wines to fit in my Chinese cooking. For the most part, a lot of people do tend to fit in a full experience Italian food with Italian wine. French food with French wine. Usually, that's the first thing that kicked in. For more sophisticated drinkers of, obviously, they can mix and match different ways. But that also apply a little bit to my experience when I work with some Italian wineries and also consortio when they ask us to promote their products. We would like you to make an event to show how our wine, Italian wines pair with local food. Some people like it. Some people don't. That's my that's my impression because some people, like I said, they want a full complete experience. Of foreign products. So if I'm if I'm promoting wines from Pit Monte for Barolo, or let me go to a pit Monte four meal with white truffles and Barolo, or Babara. Giving them Barolo to go with, Chinese food That's not the first thing they think about. I'm only familiar with Chinese food that we get in in in America, and that does not fit. Yeah. My go to for Chinese food is First Treminer and beer. That's kinda Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the second thing is for a lot of wineries that I work with. Oh, this wine can pair with spicy food. And in Asia, in China, you all eat spicy food, so it's it's gonna work really well. The answer is now I actually don't eat spicy food. And depending on the type of spiciness that you're talking about and also different parts of China, there are many different kinds of Chinese squish seen from the north or the south. They vary a great deal. So spicy spicy food is certainly we can't stereotype choice. Try that back to the palate and their, appreciation or what it takes to appreciate wine. I mean, It it's it's a journey. Right? Yeah. And it's an education, and, like, in America, a lot of it starts with sweet wine, and then they adapt to drier wines, and botanic wines, and all those kinds of things. Where is the I you can't The Hong Kong palette isn't a thing. I get that. But where does, you know, those things, the acidity, the tannins, and all that fit into? Yeah. If I can simplify palettes, some people prefer lighter palettes. Some people prefer a stronger palette. Probably not as strong as the American palettes. That will be, I think that's one of the biggest information that I took from a lot of my friends. American wise, in general, has a very heavy pallet really concentrated flavors. Sometimes it can be overwhelming, especially for more delicate Asian food. So whether we talk about Japanese food like sushi or we talk about, soft and Chinese food, which is in general a little bit more delicate. Most people are looking for either white wines or lighter reds to go with their food, especially self in Chinese, for example, Cantanese food, whether it is Hong Kong or Shenzhen or South in China, A lot of the way of cooking is by steaming with very, very little sauce applied to it. So heavy rets can be quite overwhelming for those for those dishes. Compared to you mentioned spicy food earlier. If you talk about Southeast Asian cuisine, they are not always spicy in the sense that it burns you, but there are different types of indian spice. Yeah. Not the hot kind of spicy, but they're they're different kind of spice like saffrons. So those can be can be quite interesting to go with Italian wines in general just because of the kind of red wines that we have. Be between the spectrum of light and heavy, There is, different category with the aroma and also the herbalness and balsamic nooks off the Italian wines can go quite well with those cuisines. One of the things I've read is the color red is very significant in in Asia in general Yes. Associated with good fortune and Yes. Right? And does this apply to wines? And is that why is there a disproportionate, sales of red wines versus white wine? Not in the context of bread as in fortune, but I do have to say I kind of find it quite annoying that many, many men. Many men. No. Many men. Many men. Don't drink white wines and sparkling wines. They think men have to drink red wines. I don't know if the I I I've I've seen to, come across this type of men in Asia more than in in the US. Maybe that's overall applied to many different cultures, but especially a lot more, in Asia that they think especially sparkling wines is for ladies. White ones too, men drink red wine. So has perseco, popular there, is champagne or are there spotters? Yes. For for festive occasions, and also for free full bun brunches. Yes. Yes. And also in terms of, especially for champagne, it is really quite we call it blue chip products that you can always buy champagne and it can't go wrong, whether it is for gifting, especially for gifting. It is quite a safe bet. So those are always, safe products to to buy. Okay. So let's turn our attention to white wines. What are the the white wines that seem to be the welcome depreciated purchased. Burgundy. First and foremost is whites Burgundy, both for consumption and also for investments. So as burgundy and not Chardonnay is a variety. Right. So both red and whites, but, definitely white burgundy comes up as top on the list. Recently, I think the last few years, German riesling has also been doing quite well. Because as as a really big spectrum of sweetness, so it can go from dry to sweet to dessert wine. So it's quite, versatile in terms of, foot pairing for for different styles of Asian food. And the price point is quite friendly, for the quality that, people pay for. Plus, the assumption is obviously recent can age for a long time, but it's also quite ready to drink. You don't have to wait a long time or to show the potential, you can easily get the recent quality, the petrol, the, the stone fruit components. You can get it right away and it's quite satisfying. So when we're talking about Italian varietals, I would think my mind would go to Northern Italian varietals, Pinot Blanc or, Alta wider J wines. Mhmm. Right? Yeah. Italian wine podcast, part of the mama jumbo shrimp family. For Italian white wines we're talking about? Yes. Pino Gridio is always a safe bet, but there's always a lot of misunderstanding about Pino Gridio because, there are impressions about N WSTT in the textbook exam. They will always say, high quality white wines, it's burgundy, and yada yada yada. Simple white wines, for example, Italian pinot grigial. That's pretty much, WSTT standard answer. So unfortunately, Italian pinot grigial was given by W set in a way that is labeled as a simple drinking wine, which in that case, we've I really, really appreciate the Pinaigretteual from the north, especially from auto allergy because they make really, really outstanding wise. But It would take a while for that label of simple Italian pinacritual, that name to go away. On the other hand, Sicily, the wines from Sicily is coming really, really popular. I think we talked about before the Well known Italian wine regions, Tuscany, and pit Monte, but those regions are more known for red wines. And Sicily is really, the up and coming. Although it's been up and coming for a long time already, but it's really the hot and hip, hip region these days. As the third Italian wine region that's becoming well known. In which varieties? Both the red and the white. Nothing of the whites, which? Aetna Bianco. So, Karacante, primarily. Okay. Yes. So, so white wines from Aetna. And Colorado is, is that white? Yes. Yes. Okay. So I've heard of I'm starting to hear a lot more about that. Yeah. Is that what you're referring to too? Is that Yes. That could That's beyond familiar in the US, but it may be something that would appeal. Yeah. But I would say most people, when they look for Aetna Bianco, Anarosa, they don't look for the name of the grape varieties because it can be blended. And also the name, again, it's a little bit difficult to pronounce. Aetna is easy to pronounce it for. For Yeah. Latches. Narello Narello Muskaleesi. Yeah. Narello Kaleza. It's a bit too long to pronounce. So most people probably don't realize they are drinking Narello Narello Maskaleesi, but they when they see the label at Narello. Okay. So so, yes. But the the name Aetna Bianco certainly is, stands out as easy to pronounce, easy to order. You can't go wrong? Yeah. I mean, it's been a really important thing. So I think the easy to order, your point. So I I'd be remiss if I didn't, raise this one question about, Chinese. It's not wine culture, it's spirit culture, but the role of Baijou. Am I pronouncing it right Baijou? Yes. Baijou. Has, it's always been like this big gift thing. It's, it's a challenging spirit to learn to love. Yes. Is that changing? Is the younger generations still doing that with the drinking and gifting and toasting. Drinking, yes, gifting that has, I think, slowed down quite a bit in the last few years. But on the other hand, as investment value has gone up, I've went to, by Joe seminar, a couple of months ago, and it talked about, the investment value of Bijo has been now going up in the top five to top ten categories worldwide. Yeah. Which is, well, what a lot of people might not know is Bijo is, I think, the largest selling spirit in the world. We think of vodka and Scotch and all that kind of Bijo exceeds that by orders of magnitude. Yeah. I guess because of the population of Yes. And also, they actually do have very, very strict production regulations. A lot of people didn't realize that, but similar to Italian, like, DOC, DOCG's production protocols. Mhmm. Bijo also have very strict regional sense to it. You can only produce this kind of by drill in this in this area under this kind of method. Otherwise, you cannot call it this kind of by drill. There are about seven main kinds of by drill. Sauce, flavor. Yes. But what I was really trying to find out is culturally, the role of biojo, as both as gifts, collectibles, and toasts have traditionally been a big part of business, entertaining, and all that kind of stuff. Yes. Is wine cutting into that? Is that a something that wine has to challenge or can wine live alongside that? Well, wine is considered for the most part, foreign product unless we talk about now Chinese produce wine itself. And there is definitely, national patriotic movements for, for people in trying to embrace wines produced in their own country. So they're a little bit more competition, not just because of competing competition between baijiu and wine, but also Chinese produce wine versus foreign wines. But, yes, I think in terms of the younger generation wine is definitely a a product that is appealing. To that generation. It shows that it show it's a show show of taste and sophistication that they understand a foreign cultural product. And it's at this point, it stays again within most likely the old world. So people do tend to buy more French Italian wines. That was the point when Australian wines were popular, but unfortunately, not in the last three. It was came up, I think. Yes. Yes. So that become tricky. Chile has made some big new roads. In China? Yes. Is that true? That too. And also, there are a lot of, collaborations between, producers from from South America and also from French producers in, in China, which definitely helped. Not just because of, the intention to, to for collaboration is a welcoming sign, but also practically it helps with the logistics of a distribution when there is such a collaboration. So, a lot of what we're talking about here is comparing and contrasting. And one of the things that seems to be the case, red and white, you were using the word feminine and masculine. Mhmm. There's a big difference that I understand in the way women consume wine and the types of wine they consume and men. Can you elaborate on that? Yes. I think, in in in a lot of ways, we would talk about men would prefer to drink red wine in general, in Asia, and sparkling wines are left for ladies. But on the other hand, we I see a lot of a big increase in terms of, sophisticated female drinkers in Asia. Thanks to w w set and a lot of wine education that's going on. People understand wines a lot more now, especially, they try to understand wines through studying wines. And and it turns out that there are a lot of female wine drinkers that are very serious about what they're doing, and I don't have a real statistic studying comparing the number of percentage of female versus male students. But I'm sure, you know, in Hong Kong, there are four master of wines, and they're all female. Thank you. How many are there in Italy? One. You know this thing. Right? Yes. Yeah. So so that's quite Not a thing. So that's a quite interesting thing. Yeah. What's that mean? I think not that we are not just because we are geeks, but we're also, I guess, we're we're we're naturally more, in a way, focus on understanding wines as opposed to sometimes wine can be, a social product. So that tells something in terms of the the buyers who buy these wines. Like I said, men only buy red wines, but female on the other hand are more open to explore different fruit varieties and also regions and styles. So there was I'm sure there are people who think about, zero calorie wines or low fat lines, that didn't seem to be the focus in Hong Kong as much as in people if they're is because in Hong Kong wine, has zero tax. So it's quite an appealing product for them to explore. So they're they're willing to pay a little extra. To try something different. People, after a couple of years of tasting wines, they would like to move beyond the usual regions of France, or if we talk about Italians, they're they're willing to go beyond, quaranti or Pit Montay. So definitely for for people who are interested in showing their products, a lot of importers are beginning to be willing to import wines from Italy from other regions. Because, buyers are now requesting something different. I reject the discussion with something different. What I said before about pronunciation of of wines, actually, I think females have less of a problem with those in general because I think most females in Asia have easier way of learning and speaking English compared to men. I think that's quite Please. I think if you if you look at even for kids comparing ever since in early childhood for people from the age of three onwards for little kids, female, or I should say at at at that at that age is really girls are really usually more mature and outspoken and not afraid for pronunciation at the early age. First, explorers are usually a bit they don't want to be intimidated and embarrassed by bad pronunciation. And I think, and it carry on even for adolescents and for college graduates. Most females have less problem with pronunciations in in a foreign language compared to to men. So overall, for female buyers, they're more open and they're willing to to spend the money on different different kind of products compared to always buying bordeaux burgundy. Or that sort of brand name regions. So one of the other issues, becoming to the end of the broadcast here, but I do wanna ask this one is, fraud in one, fake, labels, and, and that kind of a thing. Is that a significant issue? And does that impact you on the trade side of the business? So, let me know. Not so much. Not so much. I think quark wine is more an issue. Really? Yes. Yes. If we talk about in buying wines for a certain at a certain price point, we talk about, obviously, fine wines would be the issue. If we talk about, fake wines, I don't think people would pay that much attention to wines under, let's say, a hundred US dollars, whether they are fake or not. But once you go about a certain price point, yes, that would be a concern. But more more so whether you buy people are buying from the secondary market or directly from the retailers, it's really cork wines that seems to So when you say cork wines, wines faulty wines. Yeah. Okay. So Forty wines. Cort, like bread or something? Yes. Yes. Okay. Interesting. So what is the receptivity to screw top? I like screw top because I have You can keep lines fresher. Yes. Yes. The longer and the refrigerator. No. I think in Asia, most people are quite open minded to to to screw screw tops. I think they understand the rationale behind it. I think people may just still question if they know there is a wine from Australia from the new world. I was gonna say that most of those are, stealth owner scoot top. Yeah. The stigma is no longer there. Certainly in the US, but that was my I I I could see court being really important and just certainly for the celebratory or gifting and all that kind of stuff. Is that true? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, I also don't see there's a big issue with importers, for example, if somebody is getting wiser as we have to know. Oh, good. That's good to know. That's progress. Anyway, I don't know if it's progress in China. Certainly progress here in America. We're not here in America. I wanna bring this to a close. I I like to end my interviews by asking what's the big takeaway? We've touched on a whole lot of subjects here, but recognize that most of the listeners are in the trade. So is there something that we talked about that they could take away and put to use immediately and maybe even if they're not doing business in China, but in terms of understanding it. I would say, do not stereotype the market? We we we in general, I think it's easy to generalize a market so that it's easier for a lot a lot of practical reasons, but try to really listen to, different market needs. They're they're up and coming wine regions that people are really looking forward to. So if you, as a, as a producer or as a, as a export manager, if you're confident with your product, and you know there's something that you can sell. There are extra lot of people now because they're more educated. They are ready to book for the next big thing. So as long as you're confident with your product, that they are they have their unique, something unique to it. Be confident and sell it you don't have to fit into fit your product into the environment too much thinking that this is what people look for. Right. Okay. Great. Good to good advice today. We're we're talking this week with, Alice Wong, and I and since we're in Verona, we should say Alice Wong, see. Which is what everybody calls you here. Right? If people wanted to reach you, how would they, contact you? I'm on my Instagram account. It's, b e b e f a t. P t. Yep. Or, my company's covenanted to Asia. So you can always look look up my company. That's b I n e t u d e a s I a dot com. Thank you very much. Fascinating interview, fascinating part of the world. I haven't had the chance of visiting yet, but it's some place I'd really like to. I really wanna go to Ningshot. Does that I pronounce that correctly? Correct. Way in the north? I mean, that's like Mongolia and the jet desert that they've made bloom with and they're making some really cool wines there. Yes. They are. Someday. Okay. So Alice or Alicia, thank you for being a guest this week. Thank you a lot. Thanks a lot, Steve, for having me. So that's it for this week's edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. I'm your host Steve Ray. And tune in again next week for another interesting interview with, people in the wine industry thinking and talking about Italy. Thanks again for listening. This is Steve Ray with get US market ready with Italian wine people on the Italian wine podcast.