Ep. 1243 Howard Bernstein | Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Coming soon to a city near you, Vineita Lee Road Show. Have you ever wondered how to attend Vineita Lee for free? Are you a wine trade professional interested in a sponsored trip to Vienie to the International Academy, or Vien Italy, the wine and spirits exhibition. Coming soon to Princeton, New Jersey, Harlem, New York, and Chinatown in New York City, Cardiff in Wales, London, in England, and Roost in Austria. We'll be giving away our new textbook Italian Wine Unplug two point zero. Find out more about these exciting events, and for details on how to attend, go to liveshop. Bn Italy dot com. Limited spots available. Sign up now. We'll see you soon. Thanks for tuning in to Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. On the Italian wine podcast. I'm Steve Ray, your host, and this podcast features interviews with the people actually making a difference in the Italian wine market in America, their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. And I'll be adding a practical focus to the conversation based on my thirty years in the business. So if you're interested in not just learning how, but also how else, then this pod is for you. Hello, and welcome to this week's edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. I'm your host Steve Ray, and my guest this week is a very old friend, meaning that we've been friends for a long time, and he's very old. Howard Bernstein, welcome to the show. So I could do this, but I'll leave it to you. Give us a a quick bio of you and your history and how we first met and what you're doing now. Started in the restaurant business. Fell in love with wines, just making wine lists and stuff. And eventually, I, got my first job as a distributor salesman down in Florida at NDC and then moved over to Southern. And, From there, I I got into the, imported wine business through, Palace brands, and that's where we met at Palace Brands. I believe you were working on plenty of Oscar at the time, but we had an outstanding, an outstanding Italian portfolio that Actually, at that time, it was probably the best Italian portfolio in the industry. And, it was quite a pleasure to work it. And there, that led me into the wide business, and I worked for a couple of different companies along the way. Obviously, Southern and palace brands, Palm Bay, another great company I worked with. And, then we've, after my last job with Imperial brands, which, we brought in, sovsky Vaca. We hit a million cases in, in, in, four years, which was a record time. And, after I left them, I started my own little import company, and here we are called El City imports. Well, you said you started in the restaurant industry and and the one of my favorite stories that that I've taken over and I use it as mine. But why don't you tell it about, the sum of yay at the breakers? So, at my first job in the industry, which was a salesman for NDC. I was the first wine only guy. And all the other salesmen were thrilled not to have to sell wine. So I got all the big I mean, I was a newbie, and I got all the big accounts. I got the Boca Hotel, the Breakers Hotel. And at the Boca Hotel, there was a, a chef somewhere here, Charles Duise. I still remember a Austrian guy with, slipped back white hair, you know, with the test event and the, and and the Tuxedo. And he was a terrific guy, and my company was doing absolutely no business there. And little by little, he took me under his wing, and we started doing tremendous business. And one day, I just asked him. I said, Charlie, what's your favorite wine? And he said, Howard, it's the wine I just sold. And and that stayed with me my whole life. In the wine business. People like to talk about all the, nuances of wine, but at the end of the day, it's the one you just sold. Yeah. It's a really powerful statement, which is why I use it. But what what was your, initial introduction to Italian wines I think it's something that we shared with Philip. Well, my introduction was in the distributor business, we had a portfolio with many, many wines, on which some were Italian wines, but that's not, I mean, that was just part of my life at the time. But when I came to Palace Brands, And, I met Philip Deladino. His, contagious enthusiasm was just astronomical. And I got to go to Italy with him a few times. And I just never looked back. I mean, it was I was and I've been to wine countries all over the world, not all over the world, but most of the wine growing world. And till this day, there's just something special about Italy for me. I've done business in France and Germany and South America, and but there's just something special about Italy that, right now in our portfolio, it's a hundred percent Italian wines. Oh, cool. We'll get to that in a moment. But, we'll give us a, summary of, of Hill City imports how it's starting and what it is. Started it after, after my contract with, imperial brands, sobieski vodka was over. I had a one year noncompete, and I got on the plane and got some brands. And then I, Actually, you and I, at that point there, I got a few brands. Then you and I decided to form a company, and we actually work together bringing in some brands. But then later on, you wanted to do right in your book and all the other stuff that you do. And, so I formed another partnership with a a couple of very good friends. My one friend, Tom San Jackmo, one of my best friends. And then also with, Alir and John Batichi, who owned Feririno's restaurant, in summit, New Jersey. And even at that time, I wasn't aware of how deep, the knowledge and exposure that Olear had in both meeting some of the best producers in the world and tasting the best wines probably from the time he was nine years old, he got he got tremendous exposure. And, and that that adds a lot when you have that, when you have that variety of exposure, where I've only tasted the wines that I've sold, at at any given time. He got to chase wise that everybody sold, and it made a big difference. Right. So he's, in in operations at Fierino's. Tell us about Fierino. I mean, it's this wonderful, restaurant in Summit, New Jersey. But more than that, it has something that makes it very unique. It has become an institution. The family has been the Vatici family has been in the restaurant business. They've owned several operations in New York, Menetta's tavern, other, other excellent, four or five places over the time in New York. And, they opened up Fiorinos, I think, twenty seven years ago in summit. And it's, it's almost an institution that if you sell, wanna sell fine wine in, in, anywhere in New Jersey, they have to be one of your first stops, you know, to to they just have an outstanding wine list. The the food is outstanding, and they're busy for twenty seven years. This is incredible. Restaurant story. It's absolutely incredible. You mentioned my book. Thank you very much. And, One of the things that happens to me and you all the time and has been for years is people come up to us and say, you know, can you help me find an importer or would you import my wines? And, that's always a challenge. How do you respond to to people? And do it in in a nice way. And part of the the challenge is finding out whether or not they're, quote, unquote, ready for the US market. In fact, you were the one that came up with the idea of my book and on my podcast. Get US market ready. So thank you for that. When do the royalties come? As soon as Stevie sends them to me. Okay. So let's flip that around though because you've done something I think that's really great is you have ten basic questions that you ask to prospective brands that are looking at you as an importer. Can you walk us through each of those and and tell us not only what the question is, but why you ask that question? Well, I I gotta be honest that that I developed that list for the last in Italy, last April. And what had happened over the past two years, there was no in Italy. And new brands were a lifeblood of any business And we were not able to get any new brands because there was no Vin Italy, and there was no travel to Italy. And we had no new brands. One new brand I did do over Skype, and we started out with a, a, a barolo, fantastic wines, And the gentleman, he he didn't speak any English. So he had his export director translate. And over Skype, after ten minutes, he got bored. And and so that was our whole meeting. And It's not the same as going and having dinner and walking through the winery and asking all the questions that you have to ask. And it wound up not to work out very well. I mean, we did okay with the wines. We do which actually we were doing well with the wines, but in his mind, he had a different perception of things. I truly believe that wouldn't have happened had we met face to face in the traditional, have the dinner, go to the winery, spend a day or two with with the people. I don't think we would have had had the, the same, end of the situation. So we needed new brands Now we're going to Mid Italy and we had to make every second count because we two years, we haven't had any new brands. So I wanted to eliminate, all of the people very quickly that we didn't have a chance to do business with or that didn't want to do business with us. So I developed a list of very simple questions. And, when I'm through with the list, we actually even have to populate through the list. We know right away if it's not working out in ten minutes, I'm on to the next, I'm on to the next appointment. One of the things I wanna interject here is that, we're gonna clean up that list, and I think you're gonna make it available to our listeners. And if they wanna get a copy of it, who do they reach out to? Howard and hill city imports dot com. Howard at hill city imports dot com. Okay. So let's start with number one. Okay. So number one, the first question was, are you currently being imported into the United States and which states we only, we operate now in New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and, and, Connecticut. We're probably looking at Massachusetts coming on next. But if they already have importers in those, in some of those markets, you know, we might take a winery that's that's open in New York and New Jersey and not in Connecticut. But if they're in three out of the four markers, it doesn't pay to handle it. So we know right away, if we're any even in the ball game. Then we always ask the question were the wines in the United States prior to this meeting, and that's very important because if they were in the market before, then there's a history, and that could be good or bad. And then we could have closeouts, and we could have distributors with inventory that they wanna get rid of. And it just it helps us know that the market's clean or not. And what kind of pest and what price did they use to sell for? All that's very vital information, but they used to sell for twenty nine ninety nine. And now they want fifty nine ninety nine. I'm gonna have a problem. So, you know, just by talking to distributors. So we like to know the where they are currently and the past. The next question is, what kind of support are they willing to why distribution in the United States is not free? Contrary to what many people believe. It's actually expensive. And, so we ask, do they participate with OCM funds? And if not, do they participate with their own funds? Just, just simple things, nothing complicated. In store tastings, wine maker dinners, winery visits to the market. Simple stuff. We're not looking to reinvent the wheel. These are usually small wineries that, you know, have small production. If they can do those few things, then, you know, we have something to work with. So you're looking for somebody who understands what's needed. They understand a little at least a little about the US market and that it's not just a matter of of, selling the wine next seller that they've gotta market and support it. But And and because the wine is good, everybody's making good wine today. That's usually the first answer we get. Tell me about yourself. And in fact, If you look at these questions, if you're a winery and you're thinking about trying to find an importer in the US, the strategy that works we've found out is preempt the questions from being asked in the first place by being upfront with this information and you will appear different and more business like to, prospective importers. One that, you had commented on earlier was what would success for you look like? That that's a question to the win rate? Well, that was the next question is expectations. So we've gotten through the markets. We've gotten through the history. We've gotten through the support. But now very crucial questions. What is gonna make you happy? I don't wanna get involved in a situation where I buy three, four palates of you know, a good wine. And, and I think we had a great year. And you come in, and then the suppliers says, well, the winery says, well, gee, we, we were expecting ten powers, you know, well, so I like to clear that up in the beginning. What are the expectations? What are you gonna consider the winery to be a good year? Is it going to be three ballots, twenty thousand euro, whatever the number is, but I have to know what those end to see if we can meet them. If we can't meet them, there's no point. I'm not going to waste my time. That makes great sense. And a lot of times people are kind of hesitant or sensitive to saying that and I I don't understand the hesitancy or the reason why because if you don't know where you're going, how are you gonna know when you get there? If you put it out there, then everybody knows what the deal is. It seems to make, you know, sense to me. And I will say the feedback I got from using this list was extraordinary. Many people commented, on on what they thought was very professional because I wasn't wasting their time either. Which is why we're doing this interview. Okay. So the next one is the one that, sometimes is is the first one. Which is the, do you have scores? So scores are a a very I I I deal with that situation, in the trade, particularly, very with with very, a lot of sensitivity. Some people like scores and think it's wonderful. And other people who maybe consider scores to be almost, not relevant. If they like the wine, they'll buy the wine. If they like and they buy the wine, they're gonna sell the wine. So and that's enough of them. So, generally, I open up the conversation with these wines, have some very good scores as if they may be relevant for you or not, but I did not invent this system. You know, the score system was here before I got here. And, and some people like it, and some people don't, but my experience has been that consumers seem to like it. But, you know, some stores prefer not to put shelf talkers up. And they like to buy wine that they like the taste of, and they sell it on that. And that's fine. But I like to cut to the chase and find that out right away, because, right away if you take out some shelf talkers, oh, I, I don't look at those. You know, I don't care about those. Okay. Then that's fine. But in the in the meantime, by taking out the shelf talkers anyway, I've already preset the mindset that this got ninety two by James Suckling or the wine enthusiasts. So right away, whether they like it or not, we've established the wine as a good rating, you know, whether they expect to use it or not. I I use it as the first question, something you taught me, actually, because if they don't have scores, that tells me they're not ready for the US market for all the other questions that you're going ask because the the scores are the basic thing, and it's something you can do now in advance of, trying to find an importer because it's gonna be one of the first questions they ask. And if the answer is no, the conversation just ended. So first thing you do, get scores. Well, you know, the conversation doesn't have to end there, but why don't you send them into scores and then talk, then call me back? Yeah. I I and you've produced an excellent list of all of the, all of the, tasting events that one can send, and, you should make that list available. Well, it is. It's on, it's on epidemiology inc dot com as you go to my blog, it pops up as the first post. So, and I personally, I I use that list all the time. I send it to everybody. Even if they've got one or two squad, there's other people out there, you know, that, you know, but all you need is one or two good ones. You don't need a half a dozen. You need one or two good ones. That's it. Just to get past that objection Okay. But move on to the next one. Sustainable production. It's become now it's become very important to know about the sustainability and also the, the organic status or biodynamic status of certifications. We have wineries that are producing organically without a certification, but they've been producing organically for years. And they eat off of the land that they, that they, that they grow the grapes on. They grow crops. They have, game you know, game that they hunt in any. And so they've they've been producing organically for years before it be before it was even popular. So, but now, retailers and consumers wanna know the sustainability and also the, the the status of the certification. Very, it has become very important. That doesn't mean you cancel wine that's not certified. You can, and we do. But it, it is an issue that, you know, you have to have your hands around. So the way I like to think about it is organic and biodynamic are very specific things that have regulatory entities that guide that. But the word sustainable, sustainably produced is not very specific, but it is the one that resonates most with consumers. Because it's the simplest to understand. I save energy. I save water. You know, it's it's easy to understand. If you're biodynamic, you're that auto automatically makes you organic. And so these things become Ultimately, we'll we'll get to that, I think, in in a little bit, but these are things you wanna make sure you say on the label. Being organic and not communicating it on the label means you're not organic. No one would know. Very much so. And, and, and, biodynamic, you know, if you're organic, you're not necessarily biodynamic. If you're biodynamic, you're necessarily organic. Okay. Next. Pricing terms and, and, and, and, and margin. Well, once again, terms became a very crucial issue, with the, supply chain backup. We actually had wines that we ordered and took two and a half months to get in. I went two months with no inventory in some items because we could not get wine here. So the, obviously, the terms of ninety days from leaving the winery didn't exist. So I have very good suppliers, and they all cooperated. And Instead of being ninety days from when you left the winery, we were doing ninety, one hundred and twenty days after it landed. Because we didn't know when it was gonna land. It was it was so unpredictable. So terms are very, very important. And also, you know, for us to maintain a, a, a good inventory, you need to have supplies that work with you, and we're very fortunate. Once again, we have excellent suppliers. I think it's important too. And again, it's something you told me that, sure, you're you're gonna agree on an excel or price and that's what you're gonna purchase it for. And then it goes into the US and all those things happen. But at the end of the day, the philosophy is everybody in the system has to make money. If if you're if someone in in this structure is not making money, it's not good for anybody. No. It doesn't work. It's gonna it's gonna it's gonna stop working. So it requires that the suppliers have an understanding of how US price structures work. I show it to them. If they wanna know it, I'll show them a price structure. I'm not embarrassed that I make money. What we do, we're supposed to make some money. Some items we make a little more, some items we make a little less. You know, it depends on what the, you know, depending on the trade. You know, it depends on the items and, and what the trade will bear. Okay. Then the next one is, capacity, once again, if I could only get one pallet a year, and that's all I'm looking for, that's fine. But you have to know what you're working with. That's not only capacity. It's also allocation, especially Bernellos and barolo. It's how how much will you allocate me for for the year as opposed to what the production is? I'm only one of many people that buy from them. And, Bernelo and Barolo being, you know, just, being a little bit more rare than other wines, well, with smaller production, total production. So it's not only knowing what the capacity is, but what's my obligation gonna be? Italian wine podcast, part of the Mamojumbo shrimp family. That reminds me of a story. I remember being in Montalcino with you at one of the suppliers you work with, and they invited us to stay for lunch. This was probably about noon or so. We thought that was wonderful. Problem was the the producer only spoke Italian, his wife, only spoke Well, actually, she spoke a little English, but principally Albania. She was Albania. And their young daughter was serving who was only like eleven at the time was serving as her interpreter. And it was one of those meals that the the the dishes just kept coming out. And we're in an hour. We're in two hours. We're in two and a half hours. We're maybe on course three or four or five. I don't know. And Bruno number four or five or six. And so we're getting very, very happy and very, very full. And it kept coming That was a wonderful experience. We finally it was like five o'clock. And we had to say, we gotta go. Remember that? Yeah. No. I do very well. By the way, the that that's one of the wineries that's been producing organically for years. And, and all of that food we ate at that meal was produced on the property, three different kinds of meat, all the vegetables, all the grain, everything was grown on the property, certainly the wine. And that that goes with that great phrase about, if it grows together, it goes together. That was a perfect example of that. Okay. And then, what about labels? Well, honestly, I I'm not a big label guy. I mean, very, very few times will I make recommendations for a label to change if the selling proposition is good and the pricing is right, and the quality is right, and the scores are right, the wine I I think the wine's gonna sell almost regardless of the label, unless it's god awful. So, I'm not a big label guy. But labels have to deliver the message, and you've been saying this for years. You have a back label that you can give away a lot of information on, and you have a a certain amount of space on the front label, and you gotta make use of all of it. And the more you use it, the better it is. Yeah. As a as a piece of advice, I I tell, wineries that I work with. You know, I I'm not gonna comment on the design of the label itself. But you wanna make sure that it's using words that explain the two things that American consumers wanna know about a given wine. What does it taste like in words that I understand? And I'm not looking for sauteed gooseberries. Looking for things that describe it in in in real terms. And the second is, is it going to go with what I'm making for dinner? So you do have this space on the back label, NOIC, a lot of people who who don't include any verbiage at all. So here's an opportunity since you gotta do a new back label anyway for a new importer to collaborate with that importer to find out what are the key selling points that you wanna say about your wine so that when somebody does pick up the bottle, looks at the label says I like this. They're gonna turn the bottle around. Now I've heard a lot of research and I've done the research which says, oh, people don't do that. But I got news for you and you know this too. Just stand in liquor store, watch what people do. There's not enough information on the front label. So the first thing they do is turn it around. The next thing they do nowadays is take a picture of it and look it up on, some of the online sites. And that's a special, especially sure if there's not a shelf talker that gives them instant information. No question about it. I I I will say one thing that I think that if your label design is for a place where there is not going to be any hand selling when you are at a huge grocery store, a big box chain, the label becomes a little bit more important to jump off the shelf. But in a, in a, in a, in a, a smaller wine shop, the person who owns the shop or runs the shop buys the wine and sells the wine regardless of what the label looks like. Okay. Pretty much. And so those are nine basic questions. I'm sure people could add or or subtract something, but they they do kinda say what allow you to make a judgment on whether or not this person is US market ready to coin a phrase. And, then what happens? One of the items on the list is, of course, at the bottom, what's the follow-up plan here? We've answered all these questions. It seems that we have an opportunity to do some business. What do we do next? Do we meet you at the winery after in Italy? Are you gonna send samples to the US? What do we do to follow-up here? Are we gonna trade emails, send pricing, So, you know, so you gotta have a follow-up plan. If you just walk out the door and say I'll call you later, there's nothing concrete. And then if you're seeing, as I said, at this last minute, Italy, we were walking six to seven miles a day. We saw a lot of wineries you have to take very copious notes. Otherwise, you didn't think I knew or like copious, did you? That's thirty five years of experience working with you. Yes. So so the follow-up plan is very important. Well, so, you know, it's always good to have winemaker information, who's the winemaker, just to get a little bio on the winemaker. Well, an action plan, I think that that's often that that, applies to business in general, not just in wide business, oftentimes people, yeah, it was a nice conversation, but if there is no action planned with a day, or a date on who's gonna do what and when are they going to do it, you haven't really accomplished anything. To set a nice conversation. And if you just think about it, I I've I saw fifteen wineries a day. They saw three thirty or forty potential customers in a day. You have to be able to follow-up soundly. So, are you going to Italy this year? Absolutely. And Yeah. We're going, Tell us what you're looking for. You know, because of COVID, and we worked so hard this last year, we brought in, like, four new wineries, five new wineries this year. And that's a lot to, that's a lot to absorb in one year. So in the wines, I think, you know, we've always got our eye. We're always looking for something good. No question about it. But I think we're going to look at some, some spirits, some Italian spirits. I'm not sure exactly what yet, but, we are actually, we, we're in the process now of bringing in an absolutely exquisite vermouth. I'm a little expensive. And ver vermouth and Amari are hot. I've never tasted a vermouth like this in my life. And and, so we're looking to bring with a sombermouth in. That's a wine base, but we're looking to move into the a little bit of spirits. You know, obviously, we brought up So you're talking about grappas or you're talking about Vodkas and gins? Grapa, gin. I don't know, lemoncello, maybe. Standard stuff. We're not looking to to re re redesign the entire world here. We just wanna, you know, just stand this stuff. We have good customers. Our customers like to buy from us. So, you know Well, they like to buy from you. So what what is the the makeup of your customers? Is it off premise on premise or pretty much even? Both. I I would say volume wise, it's probably seventy five percent, retail, twenty five percent restaurants. But the restaurant side grows every day. We we we get more and more accounts every day. So question about, changes in in terms of restaurants and their buying habits. You know, we saw during COVID that a lot of people obviously, trouble staying afloat. A lot of them sold off their inventory just to generate cash. Has there been replenishment? Are the wine list different? Are they narrower? Not, you know, maybe not as deep, as they used to be? What do you see happening in the on premise? I I I think we saw that during, COVID, as as restaurants started to reopen, both menus and wine lists were slimmed down. But I, I, I think that's more now Oh, really? Things are back to pretty much normal, I think. From what I can see, you know, busy restaurants are busy. They they're selling a lot of wine. Do you think there's more or any change in openness to say the not not the pinot grigios prosseccos, counties of the world? Whether it be Primativo or sicilian wines. We know sicilian wines are are hot, but other regions, Compania, and a lot of those wines that are not necessarily as well recognized as some of these other varieties. Do you see more interest in those kind of non traditional Italian? It's not really the right word, not traditional Italian, but for Americans, nontraditional Italian wines. No. Well, you could say, you know, by not traditional not recognizable would be a better, a better, I think, a better way to describe it. Everybody knows about Kianti and Barolo and Bernelo, you know, but, when you go to Sacramento, you know, not to Fakou, and, and, and, sure, about Argentina, then, depends there are people who are very interested in that and very open to everything. I mean, look, look what's happened to some wines outside of Italy, you know, neighboring Italy. You got wines that that now that you wouldn't have thought from, moldavia and some, from, from from Kosovo and there are wines from, and they're getting what what's the I can't think of the ones now. Serbia. Croatia. Thank you. Croatia. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna grow some of the Croatia wines. They kill it. I've been Italy late last year. Yeah. That was there were there were crowds around the boot. I mean, ten deep, you know. So definitely there are I think there's a more openness as the wine world grows. We're gonna bring in some Albania wines. Cool. Well, the the Fiorinos folks, are Albania, and so there's certainly that as a as a motivator. But when you think about Balkan wines, that fits into the same category of, Yeah. We tasted the wines. The wines were absolutely very professionally stated the art produced. They were they were excellent. The wines were excellent. So How do you sell a wine from a region that people don't recognize? In Italy, maybe Melissa or, the Marquay, you know, that that aren't front and center of what people are looking for. You have to go to the right customers. You know, if the there are people who who who, who, who really, who, who love to be be the first guy on the block with something new. You know, they've they don't want with the guy around the corner as they want something totally unique and different. So you have to go to the right customer. And once again, based on quality, it's it's, you know, and if you have a score and the wine is quality, when you present it, People will taste it and have a very open mind about it. So what's next for, Hill City? You're going to the Italy. You're looking for, a couple new brands. You're working your new brands. Where is the company going? Expansion, Massachusetts. Few other states this year, I hope. You know, we we got to we added, two states. Last year, we added Pennsylvania and Connecticut last year. This year, we hoped they had a couple more states and, increase the portfolio a little bit. Not too much more, but it's going to increase in a little bit. And, just try to keep on growing, you know, at the rate we're growing. You know, I'm reminded, I had mentioned early on in this interview that we've known each other a long time and, you know, an old friend. I'm reminded and you mentioned Felipo to Bellardino. I asked him once. I said, Felipo, when are you gonna retire? He said, Steve, look, I travel around the world. I I stay at the finest hotels. I eat at the best restaurants. I meet the most interesting people, and I drink the best wines, and somebody else pays for it. He said, if I retired, I travel around the world. I stay at the finest hotels. I eat at the best restaurants and drink the best ones, but I'd have to pay for it. I'm never retiring. I've been kinda living my life that way. What's what's next for you? I haven't, I don't think that far out. You know, I, I'm trying to No. I, honestly, god. I, I, I think that, this Hill City project, when we started, it, it, it, it was supposed to be a lot easier than it wound up to be. And it didn't work out that way. And we started with case number one and account number one by ourselves and built this brick by brick. And, I gotta say that we've, we've come a long way, but that's know, it was supposed to be a lot easier than this when we first began. It didn't work out that way. And, whatever we have, we built ourselves in its hours. There there's a big difference in selling wine into a retail store versus getting the retail store to to to sell it to a consumer. And so from a importer point of view, how does that impact your philosophy in the way you work the market? The the wine's not gonna sell itself. Shelf talkers help tremendously. But, you know, your relationship with the, with the store owner or the restaurant owner has a lot to do with it. But then they're also in a store, if you participate in in store tastings, enough times, and and even repeating in the same accounts sometimes, you develop a customer base. And all you need is what you need is three or four guys to come in and buy a bottle every week. And you're in business? You know, it's not brain surgery. On premise, you know, if you get it by the glass, you get people to taste it. They'll buy a bottle if they taste a glass if they like the wine. So it's not it's it's not really, that complicated. Okay. So I like to end, my interviews by asking, what's the big takeaway? Of of all the things that we discussed. What is the one thing that listeners to the show and recognize and mostly trade can do or use or take action on from having listened to us talk? I I think Oh, oh, oh, I'd say about every three or four months, I get a phone call from somebody that I don't know. Maybe every six months, I don't know. And they'll say to me, oh, boy, somebody gave me your name, and I got this container of wine. And my brother-in-law said he was gonna sell it all, and it's he hasn't so he sold three cases. There's eight hundred cases in the warehouse for two years now. What am I gonna do? I said, well, I I said and then they say it's white wine. So now with three vintages behind, and, I, I said, there's nothing you can do. You can sell up a cooking wine. I said, with the fastest and you get a dollar a case right now, or three dollars a case, because there's nothing you can do. And I think it comes down to the anybody with a checkbook can buy wine. But very few people can buy wine and sell it and make and make money at it. And and, so, you know, people come to Vin Italy and they, I'm gonna buy some wine, and they and the winery sells in the wine, whether it's on credit over cash, doesn't make any difference very much, and nothing happens after that. That's, that's the end. So I, I just think that it's, both from the winery side and from the importer side, you have to be careful, and you have to, you know, have a plan. You have to know what you're doing. And it's good to know when you buy wine that you got a home for it. We trend we tend not to buy in speculation. We we we're very careful about that. We we get samples ahead of time. We taste our customers ahead of time. And we know when the wine comes, not all of it has to be gone, but we know we've got distribution to some degree when the wine lands. It's a, you know, it's a matter of planning. Okay. So we're talking this week with Howard Bernstein, who is managing director of Hill City imports. And what we've been going over is, the ten basic questions he asks new, prospective producers. And if anybody wants, get a copy, that Howard's gonna share it. Howard give us the email address again. Howard at hill city imports dot com. So I wanna say thank you Howard for sharing your time with me, both here and in all the other work that we've done done together. It was a pleasure. Thank you for having me. Your name precedes you. That I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing. We thoroughly enjoyed having you as a guest on the Italian wine podcast. This is Steve Ray saying thank you for listening, and we'll be back next week with another edition. Thank you. Thanks again for listening. This is Steve Ray with Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people on the Italian wine podcast.