Ep. 1261 Donna Hartman | Get US Market Ready With Italian Wine People

Coming soon to a city near you, Vineita Lee Road Show. Have you ever wondered how to attend Vineita Lee for free? Are you a wine trade professional interested in a sponsored trip to Vienie to the International Academy, or Vien Italy, the wine and spirits exhibition. Coming soon to Princeton, New Jersey, Harlem, New York, and Chinatown in New York City, Cardiff in Wales, London, in England, and Roost in Austria. We'll be giving away our new textbook Italian Wine Unplug two point zero. Find out more about these exciting events, and for details on how to attend, go to liveshop. Bn Italy dot com. Limited spots available. Sign up now. We'll see you soon. Thanks for tuning in to Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. On the Italian wine podcast. I'm Steve Ray, your host, and this podcast features interviews with the people actually making a difference in the Italian wine market in America, their experiences, challenges, and personal stories. And I'll be adding a practical focus to the conversation based on my thirty years in the business. So if you're interested in not just learning how, but also how else, then this pod is for you. Hello, and welcome to this week's edition of Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. I'm your host Steve Ray, and my guest this week is Donna Hartman Esquire. Donna welcome to the show. Thank you, Steve. I'm happy to be here. Oh, we appreciate you taking the time to do it. So give us a a bio of you and your involvement in the industry. Today, folks, we're gonna be talking about legal issues. Now don't leave because it's gonna be interesting, but Donna little background. Well, thank you for that. Yes. Please don't leave. Well, when you say that I'm an attorney, that makes most people leave, but, hopefully, because I'm an attorney in this industry that maybe I'll be a little bit helpful. So, I'm a corporate attorney with a focus on beverage alcohol. So I have the ability to work with clients from, conception of a startup through growth and eventual merger acquisition or sale. So my focus really is on helping clients, get into the business where they start whether it's permits and licenses, working on distribution agreements, helping them, expand their business, whether it's through media outlets, sales representatives, intellectual property, or, again, sale or merger. So I'd like to help everybody through the full life cycle of their business. And again, because my background is in the corporate world as well as beverage alcohol, I think I bring a little more to the table that helps somebody out with their actual visit. Corporate and that you've worked for, some multinational Yes. Beverage alcohol brands. Okay. So let let's, let's start off with one of the issues both of us deal with is working with new brands who are coming to the US market. In many cases, it could be new to the US brands, and it also could be new to the world brands. But for the sake of today, let's focus on new to the US brands. One of the big challenges we face is their lack of understanding or or knowledge of how the US market functions. At what point do you kind of initiate relationships with people like that? At what point did they get to the point where they realized, oh, gee, I really need to talk to an attorney. It it really varies. I mean, I have clients that that reach out to me or potential clients that reach out to me and say, you know, I understand that you're in the beverage, alcohol space. I want to start selling ex product in the US and I wanna do it nationally. So then we have to, of course, step back and say, well, what are you looking to sell? How are you doing it? Are you familiar with the industry? And then let's start you know, talking about what steps you need to take before this is actually going to happen. So some come, with absolutely zero knowledge about the industry whatsoever. Again, it's, the stream that they've always had to start a business and they wanna be able cell wine in the US or they wanna buy a vineyard, etcetera. Or there may be somebody who maybe has talked to a couple of people and said, oh, yeah. This is a great idea. Let me do this. And maybe they have a little bit of knowledge so it it really, it depends on the individual. So again, I've talked to people who know absolutely nothing. And then I've also talked to people who have actually been in the industry and maybe they worked for a company and decided, you know what? I wanna go branch off on my own and start a business. So one of the areas that is, front and center in in in everything that we do is, obviously, distribution because it's a three tier system. But the distribution tier, if you will, is changing. And it certainly has continued to change since nineteen thirty three, but I think it's, has really increased in the rate of change. Can you talk about some of the things that have kind of our front and center on in the way distributors are approaching new producers. And that could be either dealing with them directly or, through what we would call agency brand importers. Sure. Yeah. I I think that the landscape right now is very difficult for people that are looking to break into the market because you have the larger distributors who may have started out regionally and then they've combined. Right? So you had mergers acquisitions, and they've gotten much broader in scope. So they may have gone from a regional territory to national. So you have the very, very large players that dominate the industry. Then you have others that are smaller in scope. So you may have a few distributors that may just be state specific or a few states. They may also have distributive distributors that could be city specific county and depending on the region or the territory that they're gonna be in. So when a new person is coming to launch a brand or to have distribution of their brand, it is difficult to get that attention. First of all, you have to try and get the appointment with the distributor. And then depending on who you're going to schedule your meeting with, it may be easier or more difficult. Right? So there are some people who may have a connection to somebody who's in one of the largest distributors and they may then get a meeting. Doesn't mean that that brand will actually be taken on and represented. On the other hand, you may be able to go to a smaller distributor. You may be able to get the meeting, but then you're not sure if that's gonna be the right distributor for you and your product. So right now, talking to various people in the industry, veterans and people who are new to the industry. I'm I'm getting a lot of that feedback where they're having that difficulty, and I think that's probably the most frustrating part of of the business is really to getting a seat at the table to talk to some day talk about the distribution of the product. So let's take a look at, a small subset, but a really important one. And that is people who are already imported into the US already have distribution, but feel very frustrated that they're not getting what they want to see in terms of time and intention, from both the importer and or the distributor. Even to the point that with especially with consolidation, some distributors are shedding brands. So a lot of people are finding out gee, I or coming to the realization that gee, maybe I'd be better off somewhere else. And some of them are in a position where they have to find somewhere else because they just got deseed by their existing distributor. What advice do you have for people like that? Italian wine podcast, part of the momo jumbo shrimp family. Well, I think your question may be twofold. So first, if if I understood correctly, we're talking about an importer and or service provider that a brand owner may be working with. And in that case, I would suggest that they would have hopefully a written in quotation agreement with that importer or the service provider. And in such case, if it is a written agreement, hopefully, and this doesn't always happen, there would be details in that agreement that govern their relationship. Specifically, what duties do does the importer have, what duties does the supplier or producer have? And then, If they're not meeting those duties, well then usually there's some type of remedy that would be written in the agreement. Oftentimes, what happens is that somebody is really excited that they found an importer or service provider and they they may sign here and they do without actually reading the terms of the agreement. And then unfortunately, there may not be those details that you would want. Right? So, if Steve, you're an importer and you say Donna, you have this brand. I'll sign you up right now, and I just sign your generic blank form that doesn't really say anything other than you're gonna represent my brands and you, you know, we're in it for life. And then I may not really have any recourse against you to number one get out of that agreement. Or number two, make you do certain things to comply with whatever those duties are. So what what could those duties be? Well, it could be to represent my brand and maybe to grow the brand by x percentage. And maybe to get that product into different outlets. So depending on what you negotiate, hopefully that would be in the agreement. If we're talking about with a distributor, again, if you're dealing directly as a supplier with a distributor, say you're already based in the us. You would want to have similar terms. Right? Again, how long is your engagement for what happens in case somebody breaches, their duty? How do you terminate in case it's just not working? And then following the following whatever the steps are that are actually in that agreement. Again, oftentimes, people are just excited that they're gonna get distribution and they sign it and they really don't work on the details or negotiate the terms. As we know, when you meet somebody and you're starting to forge a relationship, everything is all happy and great and, you know, everyone has the best intentions. Unfortunately, life being what it is, sometimes we don't always meet those obligations. And unless you do that at the onset and have something in writing that you could actually, you know, that has some teeth. Oftentimes, you find out that people may be stuck. Well, my experience and I I would imagine yours is too that those are the people who end up calling us. So so they're they're they're running in a hole. Yes. That's true. And most of the time, it's because they don't have a contract or it's not an actual signed contract. And maybe something as loose as a verbal agreement or it might even be something that actually is written down either on paper electronically in an email, but isn't very it isn't a, you know, fully fleshed out contract. If if if this happens, then this will happen. And so you've got two different people, two different sides, who have differing perspectives on what they want and what they can expect. Then we get called. You get called separately and differently than I do to to try and find some way either out of that or to resolve the situation and maintain the relationship. And I've always been a believer that it's much better to resolve a dispute you have with somebody than to just dump it and go somebody else. But what what I was really, looking for the answer to is I see a number of brands saying, oh, well, I'm gonna I wanna start my own import company in the United States. So I get guaranteed a hundred percent of the time and attention. And we've seen some brands like, Santa Margarita do that on the Italian side, Pasco has recently done that. Zonim, has done that as well. And I I think it's probably true for brands that have an established presence in the US selling. The brand is is recognized. It's got a track record of sales that has an existing distribution network. It's selling through chains, as well as e commerce and all the rest of that stuff. But what about the little guy who, you know, may may have some Brunllo or something that's only selling you know, a couple of palettes in New York and New Jersey and and so forth. What can they do when things go sideways? Well, if they're in an agreement, you know, again, I I agree with you. You try to work out whatever this disputes are and and hopefully you can come to some meeting on the minds where it's you you can work it out and they can continue the relationship. If they can't, again, depending on the terms of the agreement where they're created? Are they in a franchise state? Are they able to get out of an agreement even if they don't have one in writing? Depending on the particular state, there could be statutory language that binds them to that wholesaler. So in some cases, the the producer could be stuck. In cases, if they're not in a franchise arrangement and they wanna get out of it and it's possible to do so, yes, they can start their own importation company, but oftentimes what they don't realize is that it's expensive to do so. Because you need to have the proper licenses. So if they're coming in and then represented either by an importation company or a service provider, they're using the, you know, they, they would still have to have a federal basic permit, but if they also then want to be in different states depending which states they are, then they would also have to get their importer and wholesale license in those states that allow for that and or out of state shipper permits, again, depending on where they want to be. And when you start adding up all of those costs for the different permits and licenses, And then the the company usually realizes, well, maybe this isn't what we wanna do. So Better better that they realize that beginning before they fall into those traps because the the it is very seductive to think, oh, I'll I'll have a hundred percent of their time and attention focused on me. You also have a hundred percent of the cost. Absolutely. Absolutely. There's no offset of of splitting those costs. It's all you. So I also we also talked to a lot of, smaller brands who are looking to come to the US market. And confused on on how to come. I've I've got how to get here and how to find start with importers as opposed to distributors. What is your advice to a brand talking with a Pullion brand right now who wants to come to the US and really doesn't know anything? And, yeah, told them to read my book and all that, but Right. Don't think they're in a position where they can interpret and really understand all the things that that go in there. So what what is the best next steps for somebody who wants to come to the US, wants to start to learn, but acknowledges that they don't know enough, and it's a bit risky early on. In my experience, and people, especially in Italy, have been really very gracious in talking to others who are already important to the United States. So if they do that, they can get an idea of the landscape and and maybe who to talk to. That's that's a good source. Again, we have so many different trade organizations here locally. Where they can reach out or get information online and then start interviewing and talking to different importers, specifically to say if somebody was in Italy and they wanted to start importing into New York it's easy to to to look up and see who's doing that and they may specify are they, isn't an artisanal product? So do they wanna work with a, you know, an importer that specializes in that and has a Salesforce that maybe can work on a hand cell for that type of product, or are they looking for something else, you know, whatever specific to their particular brands? Okay. For clarity, when you were talking about service companies, you mean service importers like MHW, Ellen, USA Wine West, is one in Park Street, of course. And that's great. It's a way to lease kind of your way into the US presence without carrying all the costs yourself. You just still need distribution solutions. So one of the things that people come to me and they say is, look, I I wanna bypass the three tier system. And after we explain to them, well, you can't bypass a three tier system, they say, yeah. But, you know, maybe I can do something like with a clearing wholesaler so that basically what they're trying to do, is to manage somebody else's margins. And and my advice is mostly don't. Because it's not gonna be successful. It's the old kind of thing about, you know, you can't put lipstick on a pig. Hey, it doesn't work and be a pisses off the pig. Right? So that's kinda the the challenge here. But they look at solutions like e commerce, which appear more direct? Or or is there any advice? What are the things you're seeing in terms of the evolution of e commerce as a way of either breaking in and being a sole way of selling in the US or as a complement to a more traditional three tier system, structure. I view e commerce more as a complement to the traditional three tier system because, again, if you're working with an e commerce platform, the goods still have to come in and you're saying if they're just looking for a clearing house something like that. But again, to get the attention, you're there still has to be traditional distribution. So the e platform is one way to get there where I think we've talked about in the past where you're saying, you know, this is like the endless rows of of product that people can can go on to a platform and see it. However, how are they gonna know to buy your particular product? So I think there's still some challenges there. We are, again, if you're working with a distributor which has a Salesforce, Again, depending on the product and and what you've worked out, that they can go out there and help sell and and market that product. In addition, usually, the producer will have salespeople or hire people to help get create that brand awareness, which you know very well to get out there in the market. So I think the e platform alone isn't sufficient enough, you know, maybe in the future, maybe that will be. But at least with the clients that I've been dealing with and my colleagues in the industry, that I speak with, it's it's more of a a hybrid, if you will, if they're going to go with the e commerce. You know, one of the things I see a lot, and I I fall into the trap as well as, you know, everybody, not everybody, but you hear people complaining about, well, distributor's not doing this and they're not doing that or and and there may be, a difference shall we say between expectation and delivery? Distributors provide a significant value to everybody in the system because it's literally written in into the the law. Right? So they have to be there. So the best thing that a, an individual producer can do is to find a distributor who can work with them collaboratively to provide the services that that entity needs, and focus resources on the things that the entity can't do that distributor is strong with, obviously, having the, on, on premise and off premise relationships. Where where I where I was going with that, that don't look at distributors as evil, but that sounds so horrible. The the idea is people who have been unsuccessful in the US market tend to vilify after the fact, distributors or importers. When oftentimes the problem is lack of understanding of how the US market works and having a disconnect between expectations and the reality of what happened. How do you avoid that happening in the first place? Again, I I'm sorry. Gonna go back to the default of being an attorney, there should be an agreement. There should be something in writing because you do need to manage expectations. Right? Because, I mean, it's the analogy is like you send your child to school and you expect the teachers to teach them everything whether, you know, it's whether it's going to the restroom or learning algebra. I mean, you can't just send them off and have your hands off and say, okay, you take care of it. That's the same thing with a producer talking to a distributor and just saying here's you have my product now. Go do what you do. It's not how it works. The producers, the owners, they have to be involved. They have to be involved whether it's sitting down and working with whether they're dealing with an importer, they're dealing with the distributor, There has to be a business plan. There has to be funds to support that brand. There needs to be discussions about or, you know, how are you gonna work together in the market? Do they have, sales people that would actually sell their product or is that on the brand owner? Because depending on the is the brand new to the market? Is it gonna sell itself? You know, again, there has to be funds behind that as well. So you can't just expect the distributor to do everything for you. It's a partnership. And as you know, as well as I do, this industry is all of that relationships. So if you sit there and act like a prima donna and just say, here, go do this. Well, guess what? Your product is not gonna sell. It's not going to be distributed and we know distribution is a must because if you don't have that, your brand is going to fail. I've talked to plenty of producers that have wonderful products and I'm sure you've come across many. Yourself. The product is great, great ingredients. The process is wonderful. It could be it could be, you know, innovative, great packaging. They have a great backstory. And if they don't have distribution, it's not going anywhere. So don't don't beat up the wholesaler or the distributor? Let let's shift gears a little and and talk about kind of the the end game of this for probably less so for wineries and more so for spirits, but still it applies to to both. At some point in time, there's an interest in selling the brand, the property, the winery, whatever it happens to be. What what's happening in mergers and acquisitions? And are there trends here that people should be aware of. Yeah. You know, obviously, with what's happening in the market right now with interest rates going up and, you know, again, you're hearing a lot of of this buzz in the in in the industry about well or are people still buying wineries, are they still buying brands? And the answer is yes. You know, we saw that during COVID, we saw it twenty twenty one. There were still sales going on in twenty twenty two. You are still seeing deals that are coming to together in twenty twenty three, which you can see already. However, the difference I see right now is that there may be more focus on the due diligence piece where it may take a little longer people are, you know, they're gonna keep the tires, but they're gonna expect them a little more so than they were in the past. And it depends on business as a strategic acquisition merger, whatever it's going to be. Is it something necessary? And when they're doing that, that may the price may suffer, but the deal doesn't mean that deals aren't gonna happen. I still think deals are still happening. I'm seeing across different industries as well. So that's the good news that we're still pretty busy. We do a lot of we do a lot of deal work at my firm. And thankfully, you know, things are still robust, but you will see more focus on due diligence. So it could take a little longer. And the prices could be a little softer for somebody who's who's selling. So taking a little longer. That's, you used two words earlier when we were talking about this, and that is patience and preparation. You wanna comment on that? Patients, patience, patience. Yes. That would be the mantra. I would say in this industry because, as as we've talked about in the past, people want instant gratification. I have a great brand. I'm gonna go hit the market running and it's gonna fly off the shelves and it's gonna be a big hit. They hear about, you know, they what they believe are, you know, these miracle stories about brands that someone came up with a concept and they sold it for, you know, seventy five million or another one did it for half a billion or There are these numbers that are out there. And there are instances that we know of that there were pretty quick turnarounds. Right? They were the crazy hockey stick trajectory. But that's not the norm. You know, you get the brands like a Petrone is one of my favorites because Petrone hit the market and people were like, oh my god this brand's fantastic. Like it just hit and it was an instant success. That was a brand that took time to build. I mean, you know, you're talking about ten years or whatnot. And then it was a household name and everybody knew about it. But everybody wants something to hit right away. And then when you have celebrities or somebody see that celebrities brand, sold for x number of dollars, They think this is what's gonna happen and they jump into the arena thinking, wow, I have a really good product. This is gonna happen for me. And again, that's when I one of the things I do is I I I counsel my clients it's not just that they come to me and say, here, can you do the super, you know, prepare the supreme for me and then I just give it to them. I talk to them about it. What are you looking to do? What are the future plans? Because that helps me understand what they're looking to do and what protections they may need you know, going forward and whatever we're working on. And if they think this is just gonna be something that's really quick, I'd like to talk to them about why they think that's so. And then again, give them a little more education on the industry because as you mentioned, there are a lot of people that come in that may know absolutely nothing about the industry, but just believe, you know, it's like any other business you can just buy and sell, and it's gonna be great. And then there are others that know a little bit about the industry, but a little a little that could be dangerous. It's just not enough. It's it's not a fulsome, experience. Yeah. That's true. So, wineries who recognize that, you know, they can't grow because there's a physical limitation to the land that that they they can produce on. They don't wanna buy or purchase contract grapes. What is the future? Especially when the kids, don't wanna stay on the farm, but wanna, you know, live in Milan or Rome or New York or London or those kinds of things. So so what are the options open to, wineries that are very, vineyard owner ownership? I think there's a bit of a struggle. Again, working with some of my clients who are suppliers and and they have vineyards and and they've been doing this for generations. I have some where the next generation is ready to take the helm and and and go into the family business. I have others where they would like the children to to come and take over, but the parents aren't ready to, let let hold of the reins. And then the kids are getting upset because they think they're old enough mature enough where they make decisions, but again, they're still kind of under the thumb. And then the third group is the younger generation. You know, they enjoyed all the trappings of of the lifestyle that their parents and their grandparents may have have afforded them. But they're not interested in the business. You know, whether it's they're not interested in in one in general or it's just not something that they wanna do. They wanna go and forge their own path so there's no interest. And unfortunately in that case, what you're seeing is that families may have to then sell the vineyards because number one, the cost is very expensive as we know to run it. There are labor shortages. You may not have people to actually perform the services that need to, to be performed to run your business. And, you know, the kids rather have their their the funds to go out and do what they want. So the family may have to turn around and and then sell it. So again, you're seeing some of these very large and stegious estates that are being sold. We've seen, you know, couple in the past couple of years, that were pretty significant. So, again, they're if they're looking for a premiumization strategy, so there may be an opportunity for those families that are looking to sell the vineyards, And if it's a smaller tractive land, well, I think then that may be a little limiting because then you're gonna have a smaller pool depending on where they are unless it's a very, the, terrace is is unique or, you know, it's a certain type of grade that they're growing. That's unusual that you can't get anywhere else because then they they may not have an option to do anything that's, that's really gonna help out the family, whether they sell it for a premium. It's a conundrum. But as conundrums, conundra, oh, that's probably a pretty good one. What am I gonna do with my estate? Yeah. Yeah. I I I guess it's the existential. I get that, but still in awe. You're still I'm I'm what what is thinking of is like so many people wanna buy a winery in Napa for the lifestyle of it, not for the the, you know, the profits that's gonna generate because oftentimes there isn't any and it can often be just a sink, a sinkhole It's a good problem, Tara. Right? What do I do last name? Well, we talked about that. Right? They romanticize about it. It's like, I wanna make up and see these fields of grapes and the beautiful aroma and the, you know, the sunrise and but you have to work it. It's a business. And I think that's where sometimes people get a little lost. And And an agricultural business for that, which means you're you're digging holes and you're sweating and there's bugs and Yes. Yes. Is this animal manure? And there's nobody's close enough. And bugs, Steve, come on. There is a, the Silicon Valley Bank report. Twenty twenty three just came out the other day. And I would urge anybody listening to go get a copy of it. It gets free online. Just look up Silicon Valley Bank report twenty twenty three. But one of the the fundamental points about it was that the wine industry is not doing a good job of, speaking to Millennials and gen z to the point that we're seeing decreases in consumption and the industry is kind of if you oversimplify it, the boomers are kind of propping it up and there's not these new generations coming in who are drinking wine. How to fix that as a marketing question, but how do producers deal with that? And then let's take an example, hypothetical one, but let's say it's of county producer or we'll say a Bruno producer. So it's a high end wine. It's gonna be selling for over forty dollars. Retail, there's a fair amount of margin in there. It's also very cost and labor intensive to make it. You've gotta store it, you know, for years and and the cost of inventory and all that kind of stuff. And people are, one of the words that's being used is the on ramp. In fact, there was a a program that was being developed and tried to get funded. By American wineries about creating an on ramp for these new generations to, be attracted to wine. Do you see that happening on your side or are we just the older group of people talking to ourselves and not really being aware of what's the real thing that's coming down the pipe. You should call me hold? It's certainly not alright. Let me tell you who people who are not millennials or gen z. How about that? Well, I I think you see different trends with different generations of of what they're drinking. So what's happening now, with the, I think, moving away from wine or having moved away from wine is is not different from, you know, the generation that the man man generation when, you know, you had the the scotch whiskey rye bourbon cart rolling out during the day and Brown spirits were really what we're at was, you know, what was happening. Or I guess you could throw in the Martinez as well. And then there was that big shift to my. Right? And then was a decade ago, brown spirits weren't really attractive. And now what happened? It's like, boom. This is you can't get your hands on brown spirits right now. Right? If you're if you're a producer and you want to start your own ranch. Go and try and find bourbon right now. Good luck. Well, I I think it's it's it's like anything else. I mean, you have cycles. I think they're trends. And, you know, the the younger generation, they're looking for things that They're looking for non alcoholic beverages. Right? So you you have that trend going on. They want something where there has to be meaningful to them. There has to be a cause behind it. So there are a lot of different things that I think come into the mix as to why there's been a shift away from someone. Kinda running out of time now. I usually like to end my interviews with the question. What's the big takeaway? We've talked about touched on a number of subjects here today. But for the people who are listening who are mostly in in the trade and and primarily in the US, what do you think is a big takeaway of of some of the things that we talked about here? I think the most important thing is for individuals to do their homework. And and what I mean by by that is really to whether you're in the in the industry now or just starting out to your homework, talk to people in the industry, read what you can, talk to others, whether it's importers, distributors, retailers, get an idea of of the marketplace and and what what your dream is. If your your dream is to sell x wine, well, find out is the market saturated? Is this something that people want? You know, getting into the push pull issues with marketing. Make sure you have enough capital that you have a business plan and that you have capital and understand what it's gonna cost to not only start the business but maintain it for a period of years because We know it's not going to be an immediate success. So have a plan as to your funds, your maintenance funds, and then a backup plan. Do you need to raise funds later? Are you gonna go to friends and family? Are you gonna go to an tuition? What are you gonna do to sustain that business? And how long do you wanna be in it? How long are you going to set aside for it to be a success? Or if you say, you know what? I'm not gonna do this anymore. So I think if you can kinda map that out again, do your homework, I think you'll probably be successful. Do your homework. It's kinda like that. That's something I've been hearing since I was a kid. I guess it was good advice. Right? We're talking this week with, Dona Hartman of Olander Feldman, Law Firm in New Jersey specializing in the beverage alcohol industry. Donna, if people want to reach out to you, can they via email? What would be the best way for them to reach Absolutely. I can be reached at d hartman at o lenderfeldman dot com. So d h a r t m a n at o l e n d e r f e l d m a n dot com. Donna, thank you very much. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. And, I look forward to seeing you somewhere in the world of wine soon. Well, thank you very much, Steve. It was my pleasure to be here. Thanks again for listening. This is Steve Ray with Get US Market Ready with Italian wine people. On the Italian wine podcast.