Ep. 1360 Matthew Kaner | Masterclass US Wine Market With Juliana Colangelo

By now, you've all heard of Italian wine Unplugged two point o. The latest book published by Mamma jumbo shrimp. It's more than just another wine book. Fully updated second edition was inspired by students of the Vin Italy International Academy and painstakingly reviewed and revised by an expert panel of certified Italian wine ambassadors from across the globe. The book also includes an addition by professor Atilio Shenza. Italy's leading vine geneticist. The benchmark producers feature is a particularly important aspect of this revised edition. The selection makes it easier for our readers to get their hands on a bottle of wine that truly represents a particular grape or region to pick up a copy, just head to Amazon dot com, or visit us at mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Welcome to Mastercross US Market with me, Juliana Colangelo. This show has been designed to demystify the US market for Italian wineries through interviews of experts in sales and distribution, social media, communications, and so much more. We will quiz each of our esteemed guests at the end of each episode to solidify the lessons that we've learned to sharpen your pencils, get out your no books and join us each week to learn more about the US market. Hello. Welcome to Masterclass US wine market. Today, I'm thrilled to welcome Matthew Kanner to the Italian wine podcast. Matthew works under the moniker will travel for wine as an independent consultant and wine educator, but set many years prior working as co founder and beverage director across Los Angeles. He is an integral part of the LA wine community and scene. Matthew and I met almost ten years ago, halfway around the world in South Africa, and we've stayed in touch here in California. I'm super excited to have him on the show today. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast, Matthew. It's great to have you here. Ciao. Thanks. Love the love the the Ciao. That's always good for for this show. So, Matthew, just for starters, tell our listeners a little more about yourself and your background. You've got such an accomplished and varied background in restaurants, running some of LA's hottest blind bars in restaurants, but also you start in the Psalm TV show sparklers. Now you're working as a consultant educator and brand ambassador. So give us the the quick and dirty of of your foray in in the wine world. Yeah. Thanks. So, started off in Santa Barbara where I grew up. Very lucky to come from a beautiful place where grapes grow really lovely. And that wine country, what was close to me, where I grew up, always inspired me as a kid, though I didn't really know exactly how it was gonna play a role in my life. When I went to college, I worked at a restaurant that some friends of mine from growing up owned, their family owned, and that inspired me to also kind of dig a little deeper into hospitality. A friend of mine in college, his dad was a big wine collector. He would bring a bunch of great wines around, and that gave me just enough kind of, fake it till you make it kinda information where I was able to weasel my way into a job at the wine cask wine store back in two thousand five in Santa Barbara. So that was my first four a into wine. And from there, it was literally a world of I can learn as much as I'm willing, as much as my passion, and my interest would allow. And it was a whole crazy foray into really a cross section of all my interests, which would be smell, taste, geography, geology, history, anthropology, wine encapsulates all those things so beautifully. And I moved to LA, and I originally came here for music, but, that didn't work out as I was hoping. And I ended up getting a job in wine. And, I was the second employee at a little wine store called Silverlake wine, and that also kinda changed my trajectory forever. Amazing. Yeah. You you hear so often stories of people that whether it's New York, LA, trying to make it in showbiz or, you know, in music as an actor that end up really falling in love with with one and and discovering a new passion, right, through through restaurants. Yeah. That was my introduction to Italian wine as well, was working at Italy over ten years ago and and diving into that wine list. So it's it's really I feel like one of the best introductions you can have to the world of wine. Totally right. Yeah. And then, you know, opening my own wine bars back in two thousand ten, I opened Bar Covell. And, with my partner, Dustin Lancaster, still crushing it in the business and has, like, ten places here in LA. But we opened up with a concept of there was no wine list. We could really open people's minds to anything. And what we did was we led with story. We didn't lead with this tastes like x or y or z. It was more I learned quickly about the emotional connection that wine played. And so not having a wine list that people read mostly from price from the right side of the wine list left, I learned that we could actually get to the heart of what they were looking for and get an emotional connection. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, speaking of restaurants and both of us having some background in that space and getting into wine that way, you know, today's episode, we're gonna talk about wine education for the trade and that next generation of of Psalm and Byron, here in the US market. You know, in your new role, you're doing a lot of of trade education, especially for Italian wine. And we know Italy is a complex and complicated region to learn. So our three key takeaways for today's episode and our our master class today on on the US market are number one, the most effective ways to educate US trade today. The format, the venue, everything. Number two, what is resonating right now, in the Italian wine category for today's trade and and this new generation of trade? And then number three, what kind of information is most important for trade? What do they really wanna know? About the wines and about the category. So I'm super excited to dive into all of that, with you today. So, you know, for starters, Matthew, tell us about your introduction, to Italian wine. How did you learn first learn about the category? What were some of the first wines you were Yeah. Absolutely. So I got into it quickly. My four a was into Barolla, Barbresco, and Bernela de Montelcino, as it should be. You know, the the important b's, I was working again at the wine cask wine store, and they had a huge collection of burgundy, It was kind of the the focus of the the store other than local California wines. And then the outside of either Napa Sonoma, Santa Barbara, and or Burgundy, one of the biggest collections we had was that of, top end Italian. And so I learned Klee about great communes, great producers, great vineyards. And then my own interest led me, maybe a couple years later, when I first read Avino Italian, very important book for those who haven't read it, I think it was one of the the few texts I was able to find that distilled down Italian wine, which, you know, we're talking thousands of grape varieties in twenty different wine regions and a hundred names for the same thing. And so much historical significance in history. It finally made the connection between the wine and the food, and it just clicked for me. And so, you know, coming out of that, you know, now you're working more as a a consultant and educator with you know, at will travel for wine. You've worked with some of great regions in Italy. Tell us a little bit more about what you're doing as a consultant educator for Italian wine. Yeah. Absolutely. So specific to Italian wine, the kind of opportunities I've been given I've worked in conjunction with the Italian trade agency to do, wine and food pairing events. We did dining with Baca, and I just did, a master class that was representative of the twenty wine regions of Italy educating the trade on the East Coast. I got to do Philly in New York. I've also worked with the local, the Italian American Chamber Commerce West. IaccW, however you say that correctly, based here in West Hollywood, and we've done local Italian events where they'll bring producers out. Did couple sicilian wine master classes with them and two producers that came out, and that was amazing. I worked with the the consortium from Bernardo Montalcino for the aunt de Prima of the new vintages. We did that in November. Twenty twenty two, you know, just great little forays into showing the trade and showing those who work in wine stores, restaurants, bars, whatever their their context is, or even journalists, what's topical, what's important about these regions? Why we need to have our fingers on the pulse. And a lot of times, it's as simple as here are the new vintages. We want you to know about them and why they're different, or it's something where maybe we're showcasing a new variety people haven't heard about. Maybe it's giving specific love to a new part of Sicily that people are I shouldn't say new, but like a, an area that had been traditionally given less attention, you know. Maybe it's Right. Catching fire finally. Things like that are really resonating and and been really fun to be able to to help message. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think, you know, in the what we do in marketing and and communications, we know that educating the trade, especially for imported wines, you know, they're they're your first line, right, to the consumer as well. So really getting them bought into your wines, understanding your region, knowing how to talk about your wines is is so key and so important. And that's why we're focused on this topic. Know today for this conversation. Absolutely. So when you're hosting these events for these various consortia regions, what are some of the most common questions you're receiving about the Italian wine category from today's trade? Like, what what do you what are they hoping to learn when they're they're coming into your sessions? Yeah. So it could be, someone who's newer into the wine industry. Maybe they've just gotten their first job, whether it be at a store, or maybe they're working for a distributor and they're, you know, finally getting their sea legs to go out and do sales. Let's say they haven't heard of a certain grape variety before. A an obvious common question is, what's it most like? You know, what are the comps? And with Italian wine, I think it's helpful, but sometimes it's not full picture. You know, it's, it's tricky. A lot of Italian wines are themselves and not like other things. So it's kind of a it's a fun way to try to show, you know, to give context to a drinker or a diner, like, If you enjoy x, you might enjoy y z, whatever. It's an Italian wine. It's good to know, especially if someone's like a California focused drinker and we wanna give them a foray into Italian wine. Having comps are important, obviously. But another big thing a lot of times is, like, what's the food that's local to the region? What what's the best way for me to pair this? I think those two things, you know, the the great variety comps, and then what dishes does this make the most sense with or kind of the most common things I'm hearing. And then Yeah. Like a a very technical savvy worked with Italian wine for a long time. You know, some people wanna know what was the newest DOC DOCG from certain regions because there have been some additions in the last few years. And then, things like, you know, soil type, elevation, little little nuances that maybe within the wine community help, but sometimes they're hard to really communicate what a wine is to a customer. But, you know, our our industry likes to be knowledgeable and and, obviously, we've we focus on minutia a lot of times just because minutia will, dareivate why one wine is special and another wine is different, you know, Right. Exactly. It's just the kind of the reference points. But it sounds like, you know, first and foremost, that people wanna understand the practicality of these wines in terms of how to present them to their customers and their guests and how to sell these wines. Both through food pairing, but also like you said, like having those reference points. And what could I compare this to to help my guests understand what they're tasting? So I think that's that's really important, you know, for us to remember is that those quote, unquote, basics, but that fundamental information is is so important. You know, you're speaking, you know, to some younger trade, I imagine, people that are getting into the industry, starting a bit of tastings. But you've been in industry for quite a while. So Are you seeing anything different in this next generation of trade when it comes to Italian wine? Like, are there certain regions or grapes that they're gravitating towards that might be more surprising or different? Italian wine podcast, part of the momo jumbo shrimp family. You know, it's it's a very interesting topic, and we could we could probably have an entire podcast about this topic alone. But the the reality of the new kind of, entries into the the wine and industry. It really depends on who they've learned from. Were they under the wing of someone who's been in the industry a long time? Are they someone who is a server at a restaurant and then the wine buyer left. So now because they have the tenure at the restaurant there, the buyer, you know, is it a natural wine focused Right. Leaning business versus a place that likes the classics? You know, these are really different things that will kind of show an interest level in different ways. So Like, the young crowd who are super on Instagram and TikTok, and they know all the wines that everyone in the world's talking about, and they see it all before anyone drinks it. You know, those people, that that set of the wine world tends to lean with style rather than region variety. And, you know, I'm not against that. I think I I I like to drink stylistically at times. Yeah. But the new hip, young winemaker core, like, let's say the kids of the old guard who are taking over assistant winemakers who are becoming their own, you know, having their own projects and maybe have access to a a local variety that everyone's, kind of poo pooed for years. And then they go into the style and, like, maybe they make orange wine from it. Maybe they make a sparkling wine from it. Maybe they resuscitate vineyards that are old ancient varieties that no one's thought about for a while and been able to educate people about it. You know, these things, the the youth of the industry are in a lot of ways, just they're at an awakening in a lot of ways. So I think Yeah. You know, the it it's interesting to have been in the industry now eighteen years and see these different waves of people come through and to see who survived, to see who is, you know, I know people who started as, like, let's say, a dishwasher and worked their way up to being some way at restaurants or the wine director. It's amazing. You know? Yeah. And it's it's really special to watch that. It's also interesting to watch who were, you know, coming to my wine bars in the early two thousand tens. And now, like, our real estate agents or moved out of LA entirely and don't do anything related to winer food at all. So, you know, the what resonates with people, a lot of times, has to do with, obviously, what they like, what their clientele are asking for. But the the kind of the basic outside knowledge that know, if if an educator is not the one teaching, if we're just kinda tied to the marketing of the internet and, you know, the the algorithm, let's say, we're moving toward, I think, stylistic wines versus, you know, regional and or variety specific wines. And it's it's interesting to see. Okay. And when you say stylistic, you mean something that's more natural leaning towards more classic? Or what are you seeing? Like, style when you say stylistically, like What I mean by that is the grape variety or whatever you assume that grape variety, you know, if you have a background on what one specific grape might do, that grape is not used to do that. That grape is used basically to be a vessel to create a style of a wine, not you know, and I'm not against that. Like, you know, there's lots of wines made from chardonnay that don't taste like chardonnay all over the world. It's fine. It's it it's what it is, but the, you know, not all regions nowadays with this kind of new mentality are making, like, for instance, Mavasya. There's a thousand ways you can make it. There's a bunch of different, clones you can make. You can make it sparkling. You can make it dry. You can make it with a little residual sugar. You know, the it's able to be used stylistically, not necessarily, verietally, correct, or verietally dry. Got it. Yeah. And, you know, we're seeing that more and more throughout Italy where things are being blended and not a problem. Like, it's I'm for this. You know, I'm not against it. It's just, you know, the sometimes we're losing the context of maybe why these grapes had a, a foothold or why they were grown in certain percentages and vineyards, why things survived, others didn't. I think no matter what I mean is we kinda have to go backwards to move forward, and we need to have a basis of the knowledge. We need to have really an understanding of, in this case, two thousand years, at least, some cases, four thousand to five thousand years of how did we get here? Why are these varieties where they are? Why do they work at certain places? I think that Yeah. In a lot of ways that history is being lost. And not being passed down. So for me, it's important to pass that history down. Yeah. And give people the fundamentals and teach them make the history in the background before, yeah, because they a new someone new in the trade might come into the category thinking Malvasia is supposed to be made in a certain style and not really understand the history of the rydal or how it was historically produced or made. So, yeah, I think I think that's, I think that's really important, but what I'm taking away from what you're saying is that The trade today is a little all over the map and they can't really categorize them in one way or another, that there are some that might follow the more classic rules based on the restaurant they're working in and others that are coming into it from a totally different background. And really more curious about styles as opposed to history. Yeah. I mean, you summed it up perfectly. Also, there are people who go through very, like, book driven learning processes, go through the quartermaster sommeliers or go through w set, whatnot. You have much more access and also exposure to the classics that way, where if you came up in a city like LA or New York or San Francisco or Chicago and you went to all the natural wine bars and you just drank all the great cool, young hip producers, you maybe wouldn't have that same context and access to the classics. Totally. Yeah. That's a really good point. You know, talking a little bit more about the format, so we see master classes, press trips or trade trips, you know, merging trips to regions, big walk around tastings. You know, we've all been to all these different kinds of events. What do you find today? And in your experience, over the last few years as an educator, is the most effective format for, educating about a region or a a varietal. Yeah. So short of sending people there, which that's always the best way, but it's expensive. And, you know, we just went through a pandemic and whatnot. So the events that I see having the most real takeaway, and I think the most value to them are either regional specific. And it's hard sometimes with, you know, working with a trade agency or working with a, a government. You can't always focus specifically on one place, and I get that. Mhmm. But as focused as possible to have some sort of, a takeaway that you can You don't wanna tell people what to learn or think, but, you know, having a big, regional event where it's like, hey, we're gonna focus on Northern Italy, but even focusing on Northern Italy, you know, you can go La Guria, you can go Lombardia, you can go Piamante, you can go you know, Veneta, you can go Veneta to Juliet. The it Northern Italy is not enough. Like, it's not specific enough. So Yeah. I think focus is really important nowadays because bandwidth is at an all time low. We got worked, I mean, just how do people have attention spans anymore? I'm guilty of it. They don't. And and that said, like, I've also learned in a smaller setting with less people. Okay. I think people tend to take things better. So Like, I've done these huge events where it's a master class of a hundred people sitting there and a a panel of people, and you taste, you know, twelve to fifteen wines. Now some people are very studious and sit there and take a ton of it away from it. Other people, myself, I'm part of this. Like, it's hard for me to sit there and focus. So I've noticed, like, a group, a smaller group, a little more concise, a little more focus tends to work really well, but also experiential events. Like, you know, the Barolo Babaresco World openings a good opportunity to talk about. Like, that was a bigger event, but it was about as focused as you can be within such a a large region, you know, talking about Piedmont, talking about specifically Barolo Babaresco, having an opportunity to try that many wines all made from Nebula. Like, that's Yeah. That's a huge event based on specificity. So, you know, giving people kind of shepherding in a goal and knowing what the goal is versus just, throwing a bunch of wines together and seeing what people take away from it. I think nowadays is working a little better. And having a winemaker there, having someone from a region there, having some sort of an expert to be able to speak on it and give local, you know, if we're talking something Italian, like, I I'm thankful that I get to speak on behalf of these people, but I having the the actual person from there to talk about it, you know, it it changes the way that the the invitee will learn. It changes the way their brain takes it on. You know, so maybe more memorable in a in a certain way too if you're actually meeting the winemaker, the person behind the project Absolutely. As presenting you the minds. Yeah. But also more focused from what I'm, you know, what you're saying, more focused terms of the topic with let's get real specific about what we're presenting, making it thematic, having clear takeaways for what the information that is that we want to impart as well. Absolutely. And, like, it's a small example, but, you know, we did these a couple of master classes back in November twenty twenty two where two wineries came out from, Messina, northeastern Sicily. And one of them focused on, even though they're from Messina, they focus on wines from Aetna. And then the other winery focuses on a local variety that I had never even tasted or heard of called Nocera. And it became this unbelievable opportunity for a room full of fifty people in the trade. We did two different events. And I think of the hundred or so people that we were able to touch, maybe, like, three or five of them had tasted no chair before, maybe. Yeah. Wow. So something like that is a takeaway. And, I mean, the the one thing we have to remember in the wine world is we're always learning that every day is an opportunity to learn no matter what. So those kinds of things when we can give that opportunity to people and really show them something that maybe they don't have access to twenty four seven with the internet, you know, it's a it's a special opportunity. Right. And those are also the wines that I think need the modes education for the consumer. Right? So you need to get the trade on board to understand the wine, how to serve it, how to pour it, how to present it so that they can then be your ambassadors to go out into the world and present this wine to consumers. Exactly. That's, you know, that's the the the key objective with which education for the trade is ultimately selling those wines in the market. Right? That's everyone wants to we're all here to sell wine at the end of the day. Right? So Yeah. We gotta move units, but also, I I've found if you can help with an emotional connection that a lot of times has to do with the story line, the family that grew it, you know, why this is unique, why this is different than their neighbors, those those emotional connections not only sell one bottle, but they will sometimes sell a repeat bottle. Definitely. Yeah. That's a really good point. And, you know, how about reaching the trade? Obviously, you know, we're talking about four months, master classes, trips are great. You know, we know they're expensive and maybe more limited, but always gonna be super memorable, for anyone who has that opportunity. But the databases, the networks, you know, they've changed, over the last few years. A lot of people have left the industry. Like you were mentioning, a lot of people are coming into the industry. So, you know, how does a region, a producer from Italy even reach the right people, the most relevant people in their target market today. Yeah. That's it's a great question. I've gone through this with event databases and people that have watched cycle out of the industry. And how is it that even if you're someone well connected in your specific city or your region, Like, what happens when twenty five or thirty different buyers change over? Right. How are you supposed to know that person? So it it takes a constant kind of, awareness, but also presence in the market to know who's changed over and what work's being done. Wine reps are oftentimes the the first line of defense. And so, you know, I have one client I work with. I'm an ambassador for a non op brand, and we have a local distributor. So I get a lot of info from them because they're there every day talking with the buyers and whatnot. You you really have to be up to date on it, getting people's contact information, and also remembering that they're probably gonna change over. I mean, it's we're just a we're in a changeover kind of, industry anyway, and things are moving quicker. But you know, giving people an opportunity to feel comfortable to give their contact info, showing them value, making sure that, you know, you're being respectful. And because another thing is sometimes you people get spammed and get invited to a bunch of stuff they don't wanna go to. So we have a an opportunity really in a kind of a a duty to be respectful on our end of what we invite and not harassing people and whatnot. Like, not say it's harassment, but, you know, some buyers some buyers don't like to get invited to stuff. It's crazy, but There's a mutual respect, you know. Totally. And I think everything you're saying is you need trusted partners too that know these markets and know all the nuances that you're saying. I mean, how can someone sitting in a winery in Tuscany possibly under stand the entire LA market and which Tom likes to be invited to seminars, which first is a buyer that prefers one on one meetings, or it doesn't like to leave, you know, the store for for tastings. So I think troops on the ground. That's right. Getting people really on the ground in the market is so key and so important. So, Matthew Woodson, the horizon for you these days, but trips do you have coming up, projects. You're always up to something new. So what's what's going on these days? Yeah. Right now is a pretty domestic time. I'm not going internationally, at least that I know about in the short term. There's a possibility of a a project in Italy, but I'm waiting to hear about it. And so I don't wanna jinx anything. But I'm going to a New Zealand event with the the New Zealand wines, and the, you know, their council general and trade commissioner. They're doing a thing in the Hudson Valley in June. So I'm very excited to go to that. Finishing up a great campaign with Grand Marine winery in Oregon. Get to go see them in July. So that's, you know, thanks to you and your team. And other than that, just helping my clients here in LA, open some wine bars and tasting rooms, and it's been The these projects, I'll tell you, like, helping people open their own wine bar is harder than it ever was for me to even open my own in the past. Like, it's taking forever nowadays. Really? And why why do you think that is? Well, one of the biggest things kinda similar to, watching the trade turnover that's happened in the wine world is also in city municipalities. A lot of people who were close to retirement age got the hell out and retired. And people who saw upward mobility for maybe, like, a better job within the city or another opportunity to maybe work less hours or whatnot, everyone just moved around. So there's a lack of expertise on the city levels and local municipality levels. Therefore, you get a bunch of runaround and incorrect information on, like, how do I accomplish this? What if I need this entitlement? How do I get this exemption? Right. Things are just taking a lot of time. And, you know, it's Cities already worked at a glacial pace. And so there's a little bit of that at play, but also the fact that, like, now everyone's relearning positions and changing and whatnot. Both projects, are over a year at this point that I've been helping. And Wow. One one hopefully will open in the next three months, and the other one still hasn't signed the lease yet in a a year. So, you know, we're just one of the things I get to do is help everyone realize patience is key. Don't lose your mind. Building the that extra time enter your timeline for sure. Exactly. Right? That's always, yeah, really important. Well, great. I think there were so many really valuable takeaways for our listeners today about how the trade is change in the US market, but also some of the most effective ways to reach them and what kind of information really resonates. So we'll do our rapid fire quiz that we do at the end of every episode to really own in on some other key takeaways. So if you can do your best to answer these questions in one sentence or less, please. Number one, what are the most effective ways to educate US trade today? Help them find emotional connections to resonate to their guests. Awesome. Number two, what is resonating right now in the Italian wine category for today's trade? Ancient varieties that are kinda finding their way back into the industry and back into our nomenclature. And then finally, what kind of information is most important to impart upon trade. For me, it's all about the anthropological. Tell the story of who, what, when, where, why, but the old school. We had to come from somewhere, so tell that story. Yeah. Totally. Well, thank you so much, Matthew, for being here today and for sharing all your insights and expertise and knowledge. How can our listeners connect with you? Guys can find me on Instagram at matthew j Kayner with two t's. Got a new podcast that'll be coming out at some point, and, love to see y'all, you know, on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, all those web two places. Fantastic. And we'll we'll be sure to check out your new podcast as well and and share the podcast love. Well, thanks again, Matthew, for being here today on the Italian One podcast. Great speaking with you. Been an honor. Chao chao grazia. Wow. Thank you for joining me today. Stay tuned each week for new episodes of Master Class US wine market with me, Juliana Colangelo. And remember if you enjoyed today's show, Hit the like and follow buttons wherever you get your podcasts.