Ep. 1369 Gary Fisch | Masterclass US Wine Market With Juliana Colangelo

Hey, guys. Check out Italian wine unplugged two point o brought to you by Mama jumbo shrimp, a fully updated second edition, reviewed and revised by an expert panel of certified Italian wine ambassadors from across the globe. The book also includes an addition by professoria Atilushienza. Italy's leading vine geneticist. To pick up a copy today, just head to Amazon dot com or visit us at mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Welcome to Mastercost US Market with me, Juliana Colangelo. This show has been designed to demystify the US market for Italian wineries through interviews of experts and sales and distribution social media, communications, and so much more. We will quiz each of our esteemed guests at the end of each episode to solidify the lessons that we've learned to sharpen your pencils, get out your notebooks, and join us each week to learn more about the US market. Hello. Welcome to master class US wine market. Today, I'm thrilled to welcome Gary Fish to the Italian wine podcast. Gary is the president and CEO of Gary's wine and marketplace. Gary started as a small wine shop in Madison, New Jersey in nineteen eighty seven and has grown to be one of the largest fine wine businesses in the New York Metropolitan area with four stores in Northern New Jersey and one store, in Napa, California. Gary's has also expanded to include a successful e commerce site. Gary's passion for customer service, wine, and retail is palpable and can be felt walking through every one of his stores. And I've experienced that personally having worked with Gary throughout the years. Welcome to the show. Great to have you here. Thank you for inviting me. It's great to be here. Fantastic. So we're gonna dive into a discussion today about off premise and Italian wine. But before we get into that, tell us a little bit about your story and your journey and and how you got into the wine industry Well, I mean, that could be the entire show, but, you know, I, I fell in love with wine in, in nineteen seventy nine, nineteen eighty, just as I graduated college, and I started focusing on the liquor's house when I started focusing really on selling wine, and it was first domestic, California predominantly. And then it became Italian and then French after that. So I've been fond of Italian wines for a very long time. And then how did, you come to to open dairies? Well, you know, as a liquor salesman, I was calling on retail stores around the, Northern New Jersey, one of my accounts, wanted to sell one of his stores, and it was in a great wine market. And he thought that based upon my wine knowledge, I would be a good candidate to buy the store. And, after some challenging discussions about economics and me not having any money, we figured out a way for us to buy at the store in nine and that was in nineteen eighty seven. Wow. I think. So I was twenty eight years old. Amazing. Twenty nine. And I imagine Northern New Jersey where I'm also from. You had a lot of, Italian wine clients and selling a lot of Italian wine and in that part of the state. Well, it's funny because at that point, it was more Italian restaurants and pizza places than than fine Italian wine. Right. But definitely firsthand Italian as you know, Northern New Jersey and parts of New York is is Italy first. Right? It's a value wine Italian fruit. Yep. Absolutely. So in today's episode, Gary, we're gonna talk about trends in the off premise in, you know, Italian wine today. So much has changed in the last few years since the pandemic. So we really wanna dive into some of those shifts our three key takeaways for today's master class are going to be number one, what varieties and styles of Italian wine are trending currently in the off premise? Number two, what are off premise buyers including your team at Gary's looking for in the Italian wine category? And number three, what are some trends, in brick and mortar, but also in e commerce, which we know Gary's has a huge business in. So that's what we're gonna focus on for today's master class. So, you know, just to start, you've been in this business for many years, like, you you just detailed. You've seen lots of trends. Talk us through some of the key trends in Italian wine that you've experienced during your time, you know, in retail and starting Gary's. Sure. You know, when we first started, it was all about Bola. You know, it was Paula Swave in Palicella, and Bartolino, and it was, Martini Rosiosti, and Reuniti on ice is nice. So it was not a very sophisticated program, but it was very act. And then all of a sudden, the word Santa Margarita Pino Grizio came on scene. From what year was that? I wanna say about eighty four, eighty five, I started seeing it. But definitely by the early nineties, Bola Swave was done in in our stores. You know, we were selling very little. Mhmm. And it converted to Santa Margarita Pino Grigio, and which then became an entire group of peanut brassios. Cabot, became the dominant force in the the bat magnum bottle. But Santa Margarita I remember drinking that at my grandma's. Yeah. You know, it's it's funny because When I was, you know, just getting into the business, it was all about Swave, right? It was bowl and it was really Bola. And if you want the bubbles, it was it was Astis Bimonthi. It was that sweeter. Right. And if you wanted something other, it was the reuniti. So it's that fruity, Lambrusco. Mhmm. And it it felt like it was going slowly, but it really so rapidly changed when, you know, Refino started becoming, you know, with Kiante and it went from Storog Kianti to more sophisticated Kianti classicos. Right. Was that around the time of of the Sopanos? I remember that bottle is on a in a lot of tables in that show. It's complaining. Probably was. You know, I don't I don't remember, but it was definitely the late eighties where you saw this shift from the soprano straw chiante Mhmm. To a higher quality chiante. To, you know, the the, red and white Shacker tablecloths. Remember those? Oh, yeah. Mhmm. And the hot pepper, you know, you the hot pepper and the shaker. Right. Mhmm. To the servers with white aprons and white tablecloths and fresh grinding parmesan in front of you. And with that shift to higher end Italian from the pizza joints, became the shift to higher end Italian wines. And that makes so much sense, right, with the connection between, you know, Italian food and wine that the wines would start premiumizing at the same time that the cuisine did. Absolutely. And also travel, you know. I I remember my friends and and neighbors and stuff started going to Italy as one of their primary vacation. Yeah. And when you go to Italy, you don't come back wanting just eat pizza. You come back wanting to drink better wine. Yeah. Definitely. And the whole travel thing, and that goes for all of the world. You know, whenever people start traveling to a region, we see significantly shifts in the quality of wine and also the desire for people to buy those wines. Mhmm. That makes a lot of sense. Absolutely. And I think we've only seen that with with Italy grow. So how about more recently some of the trends that you've seen Italian wine. So it went from, you know, the the chianti and pinot grigio to Supertuscan, right? Saskicaiah, Warnelaya Tigniela. And chianti, you can get for seven to twenty five bucks. Take the yellow when it came out was probably thirty dollars now is one hundred and twenty five dollars. Mhmm. And we can't keep it on the shelf. Wow. And the quality of the, the, that category of Supertuscan, exploded. And we continue to see it, but we're now and I think it's coming again with with shifting and travel. Early on, people were going predominantly to Tuscany I think part of it is it's proximity to Rome. Yeah. Right? You would do a few days in Rome, and then you'd go up to Tuscany. Now we're seeing more and more people going to Sicily and Sardinia. And puglia. And now we're seeing wines from those areas become more and more, requested. You know, people are asking for wines from volcanic soil. Right. Right? And whites that may be a little bit more fragrant, and have more structure and maybe texture, than your typical pane of ratio. I think that also just trends with consumer preferences, in terms of of styles of wine, lighter styles of wine as well. I mean, you talked about what was trending in the eighties and nineties, some of these bigger wines, but also sweet wines. And now we've seen just consumer preferences shift towards a lighter style of wine, overall lower ABV too. So some of those regions you mentioned, especially in the whites will might trend towards that. Oh, absolutely, especially the whites where you're getting other grape varietals and you're getting and I call them fragrant. You're getting wines that have beautiful fragrance and aromatics. And they may have or appear to have some fruit to them, but they really they're not fruity sweet wines. They're just wines that have lush flavors. And go go great with seafood, and lighter salad dishes. And again, that's, you know, people are not having, except for my friends, parmesan, field parmesan is much, I think. Right. Exactly. And, you know, and so the the food changes, our, our, and our wine taste preferences also changed. Yeah. In one of our last episodes, we, you know, we talked to Dan Patraski, who makes Massacre and he talks about making a white wine that embodies the Mediterranean, specifically Italian white wine lifestyle. So, it's no surprise to me to hear from you that that's also trending, you know, in in your store, your stores around Italian white wine. So absolutely. And he's a good customer in our San Elena store. And we love what he's doing with, white varietals. Yeah. Those wines are are fantastic. Are you noticing any trends generationally in the store? What younger consumers versus older consumers are gravitating towards? Absolutely. Well, you think about the younger consumer, and and we'll I'll start off with sparkling. Right? So I said it was it was Astice Bimonte early on. Right. And now it's all about prossecco. Right? So you're getting a little bit lighter, crisper and dryer. And and the white wines that used to be Santa Margarita. The under twenty under thirty five group. I don't think any of them ever order cinemark ratio. Yeah. Right. That's just not what they they're not drinking that. They are looking for lagonos. Where they're looking for that lighter, more fragrant white wine. And and again, it's the same thing. It's going to what they're eating. So definitely, the younger generation is less name oriented. Right. Right. They're not, you know, where my generation might have grown up on Refino and Santa Margarita. Mhmm. They're they're just looking for wines of an area. Right. And then playing around in that area So maybe they get bored and they try a different area, which is kind of fun. Yeah. They're not as brand loyal. I know we have a family member who won't drink anything but Santa Margarita and literally travels around with the bottle of it in her bag. So definitely experienced that in in my own family. But, yeah, and I agree with you, and I've seen the same trend among my friends that they're more interested in in places and and regions as opposed to specific brands. So It offers a lot more opportunity, right, out there for for new players. Absolutely. And it's also Mhmm. Experiential. Right? So it's about an experience. It's not just drinking. It's about, drinking a bottle of wine that reminds you of a vacation or reminds you of a great meal that you had someplace. And I think that's what we're seeing more of. And as people get out and travel again post COVID, and they're experiencing more things. I think we're gonna see that continue, which is great for us because, you know, quite honestly, when you're dealing with date and name brands Yeah. We have to be competitively priced. So our our margins are really condensed on Of course. Mhmm. You know, Santa Margarita and La Maraca Preseco, and Refinochiante. But we have unlimited opportunity with the varietals that don't have name recognition and more of experience recognition. You know, sorry. I'm finding that's great for everybody. Right? It's great for for wineries because now they're not really competing against price. They're competing against somebody that's also visited, Sardinia Mhmm. And looking for Sardinian wines, which I think is great for everybody. Italian wine podcast. Part of the mama jumbo shrimp family. Yeah. And and speaking of, you know, experiential and travel at Gary's beyond Italian wine, you have a super global approach to to your selection. I know, here in in Napa and California, we were excited when when you opened your store in twenty nineteen because it was an opportunity to buy more global wines. And you and your team, you know, travel the world sourcing different wines, visiting vineyards and meeting with winemakers. So what's most exciting to you and your team right now in the Italian wine category? Well, it's it's funny, and it's we're a couple days too early, but, you know, I have Cesare Martinez, my Italian buyer, and he just got back from five weeks in Italy. Oh, wow. Yeah, I know. I wanna be him when I grow up. Like a guy. Yeah. And, you know, because been Italy and he went before there and he stayed a little bit after. But, you know, he he is really, really excited about the quality of wines he was seeing. He still, he still believes very heavily, very strongly in Piedmont Okay. And in in Tuscany. But he he said, Garrett, I gotta tell you what's coming out of Cisley now. Yeah. And he was more focused on on Sicily as like his next area. In quality and in price point, right? Because as we've seen with the super tuscans and tuscans in general, you know, Bernellos are now trending towards fifty to seventy dollars for really good Bernellos. You you can get something a little less expensive. But from Sicily, or any southern Italian area, you can get great value. Absolutely. In between fifteen and twenty five dollars. Yeah. So seeing a lot of excitement with the the southern regions, which makes me happy as a a person of Southern Italian heritage. That's exciting. I by a lot of my families from Calabrio. So I know that that region is still, a little under the radar, but I've had some great Calabrio wines. I think, you know, it's just a matter of time. They'll they'll get there too. And they're not quite sicily yet, but you know, there's always room to explore. But I think what happens is as Sicily becomes more powerful and more recognized, the the the price points will go up. Absolutely. We've already seen that with Aetna. Right? Those price points have gone up quite a bit. Yeah. Exactly. Beautiful wines. And I love those wines. Yeah. So then that'll open up opportunity, more in that, let's say, ten to fifteen, ten to twenty dollar range for some other regions, you know, perhaps like a Calabrio, Melissa, but other lesser known regions to, to, to make an entrance. Right. And I think what happens is people have a budget, you know, and it's not necessarily age driven. But if if categories or areas start to move above your budget. You look for other areas. Right. You look for alternatives. And that's where I think, I think Italy is really well positioned because, you know, from north to south, you have an enormous number of grape varietals. You have completely different climatic, areas. The soils, obviously, you know, you have from sandy soils to volcanic soils. And so you're we have unlimited opportunity at different totally different taste. Yeah. And I think for the consumers, that, that gives them almost one stop shop for, experiencing different wines. You can get all of them from Italy. Exactly. Yeah. And look for alternatives to things you might have been buying in California as as prices get higher, within, you know, the Italian wine category too. Absolutely. You know, and, you know, obviously, I'm, I'm a huge fan of Napa Valley, and I I've put my money where my mouth is. But in our Napa Valley store, we have a, a great number of imported wines. And here, ironically, we're head very heavily into Tuscon A and Piedmont. Interesting. And I'm not sure if that's because they score very well in could be. Mhmm. And that's what winemakers are looking for to compare her to their wines. We're just what what our wine buyers here have found. That's interesting. What's distributed more widely in the state potentially, but I think also, you know, we saw the East Coast is the is the first market for Italian wine and then things will trend towards the west. So maybe we'll start seeing more of that Southern Italy and Sicily come into the napa store in the coming years and and follow follow the East Coast. Oh, absolutely. And and the East Coast is clearly a couple of years ahead, but in our stores because of, you know, we're Northern New Jersey. So, the Italian population is still very strong. Absolutely. But you're right. The next generation Italian consumer is not drinking just what their mother drank or what their grandparents. Yeah. Absolutely. Which is great. So, in addition to the brick and mortar stores you have in New Jersey and Napa, you also have a great e commerce business and even a delivery service, which is fantastic. So talk to us a little bit about the differences you're seeing between e commerce and brick and mortar. Are you seeing similar trends in e commerce? Are you noticing anything different in the Italian one category? It's interesting. And I I took a deep dive into this because I had, you know, before we spoke, I really didn't have a a grasp on on what was selling online and delivery. And Ironically, the delivery business in New Jersey, which is very strong since COVID, is still name brand. Okay. It's much more. And maybe that's because it's a an older clientele that really got into the habit of not going out and just, you know, clicking on our mobile app and saying, you know, I bought Santa Margarita last week. Give me some Santa Margarita. Give me some Cabot, Refino. Mhmm. And so we're selling still selling more name brands online. Yeah. Also, that makes sense because online, you don't have somebody in the store introducing you to something new. So you might go for what you already know. And, you know, you have such a great staff that is there to educate the customer. That's exactly. And that happened across everything during the pandemic where when people weren't coming in, everybody went towards name break. Right. And now in store, they're they're much more experimental again, delivery. They're clearly just going to name brand. Online is very different. It's still heavily weighted towards, Tuscon. Okay. But that's because if you think about it, you know, Brinello's, that score very well, sell very well on email. Therefore, that generate. That's our online business. So that becomes our first line of defenses what people are buying via our emails. And our emails are heavily, to Tuskin and then Piedmont second. So that's that's what you're gonna see is our our base of business. But whenever we run something from Sicily and in particular, it does very well. It's just we don't we don't get as many opportunities there because there are less wineries. Right. And maybe smaller production, not the volume that you might need. Exactly. And they also need it. They need more of a story. And the story is easier to tell in person when they're in the store or when we do an in store tasting as opposed to telling them via a text online. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense that something like a score that's easier to recognize for a consumer or easier to translate. And any email or over text would sell the wines and the com and digital space. So that that makes a lot of sense. Just now it's time for our rapid fire quiz. So we'll review some of the key takeaways that you've shared with the our listeners today, to hammer home some of, our learnings from today's episode. So Gary, if you can try your best to answer each question in about a sentence or less, that's what we're looking for. So Okay. Question number one, what varieties and styles of Italian wine are trending today in the off premise in your experience? Sicilian reds, big rich wines that are, not too tannic and easy to drink. And really, even though we didn't talk about it Northern whites, for Yulie, in particular. Oh, some of my favorite wines. Beautiful. Question number two, what are off premise buyers and, you know, your team in particular at Gary is looking for in the Italian wine category right now? Scouting out the the the best opportunities that they could find. There's so many options. That they're looking for what's great quality at the right price. Fantastic. Okay. And finally, question number three, what are some general trends and differences you're seeing in sales of Italian wine? In brick and mortar versus retail, and, you know, delivery and e retail. Well, in the brick and mortar, we're we're seeing as we said, we're seeing great deal of experimentation. Mhmm. Listening to our wine team learning about a tasting people love when they come in our stores to taste. E commerce is about, name brands. It's about, you know, high end brunellos with a big score. It's about a, great deal on a Prosecco. So, you know Yeah. I know. I think that that summed it up while we're seeing experimentation in the brick and mortar or we're seeing more, wines that are selling off scores or or brand recognition and the e commerce and and delivery space. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Well, Gary, thank you so much for joining us today on the Italian wine podcast. How can our listeners connect with you or reach you at Gary's? Gary's wine dot com. Fantastic. Well, thanks again, Gary, for being here today. We really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us. Thank you so much for having me brush up on my Italian. Anytime. Chow chao. Thank you for joining me today. Stay tuned each week for new episodes master class US wine market with me, Juliana Colangelo. And remember if you enjoyed today's show, hit the like and follow buttons wherever you get your podcasts.