Ep. 1973 Robert Camuto | Masterclass US Wine Market With Juliana Colangelo

The Italian wine podcast is the community driven platform for Italian winegeeks around the world. Support the show by donating at italian wine podcast dot com. Donate five or more Euros, and we'll send you a copy of our latest book, my Italian Great Geek journal. Absolutely free. To get your free copy of my Italian GreatGeek journal, click support us at italian wine podcast dot com, or wherever you get your pots. Welcome to Mastercost US Market with me, Juliana Colangelo. This show has been designed to demystify the US market for Italian wineries through interviews of experts in sales and distribution, social media, communications, and so much more. We will quiz each of our esteemed guests at the end of each episode to solidify the lessons that we've learned. So sharpen your pencils, get out your notebooks, and join us each week to learn more about the US market. Hello. Welcome to Master Class US wide market. Today, I am thrilled to welcome Robert Camuto to the Italian wine podcast. Many of you are probably familiar with Robert, for those of you who aren't. Robert is a contributing editor to white spectator since two thousand and eight where he writes a twice monthly column. And he also is in a award winning and prize winning American author and journalist and he's lived in Europe with his family since the onset of the twenty first century. Robert, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here. Great to be here, Julian. Absolutely. So today, we're gonna dive into a little bit more about what makes really intriguing storytelling in wine journalism. And this is a topic we've been exploring on the podcast in a few various episodes, because I think it's really important, especially as the consumer changes, and we need to find new ways to communicate around wine. But before we dive into that topic, Robert us a little bit more about your own journey in journalism and how you came to really focus on wine and storytelling and your work today. Well, I'm a career journalist, and I've been a journalist since, like, nineteen eighty one writing magazine features on the West Coast for, at the time, a punk new wave magazine and all different outlets. And then I, went mainstream after graduate school and worked in Texas newspapers for quite some time, the Dallas time journal and the Fort Worth Star Telegram, covering everything from, you know, politics to arts features. And then I started my own weekly newspaper in Fort Worth Texas. It's called FW weekly or Fort Worth weekly. And, it still exists. It's still around. At the time, when I started, it was the largest market in the US that didn't have an alternative weekly. And, in Fort Worth, Texas and alternative weekly is not the easiest thing to do. People are always not interested in alternative points of view. Yeah. But we did that. And then after about five years, I discovered I really don't like being a manager. I like being a creator. And, I sold the paper, and I moved with my family, our son was seven, to France. And in journalism, we have a saying, follow the story you know, follow the story. That's kind of what you do. In following the story in France in, you know, from two thousand one, there was a whole kind of eruption of the wine scene at that time towards regional wines, you know, rejecting the idea that only, you know, that, want French wine was only Bordeaux and Burgundy. And, you had a great explosion of, regional wines all over from the loire to the Rome, to the Southwest, to outside everywhere. And I found that to be really exciting, and I started kind of following that, wrote a book about it called Corkscrude, adventures in the new French wine country that came out of two thousand and eight. And more and more, I just became intrigued by the idea of the way wine recreates itself. And this is a story we see throughout the wine world. That same Renaissance that that was happening in France, then maybe in Italy started a few years after that. You know, we see those tendencies in Spain and Greece everywhere now where you have you know, new generations. Maybe the parents did not work in wine. The grandparents did. The parents became teachers or something like that. And you have a new generation that's going back in and kind of rediscovering what they have in the land, what they have in their sellers, and trying to valorize and maximize that. And, you know, that's pretty exciting to me. I mean, wine scenes make exciting wines. And so I've just been following that. And So is that story of recreation that really intrigued you in the beginning when you first moved to France to focus in on on the wine space for your niche with journalism? Well, to me, it just seemed like, okay. Well, they're interested in things like wine, olive oil, travel. And wine was a very dynamic sort of happening story at the time. You had the first natural wines Right. Coming out that scene with all its excesses, I must say. But it was always interesting. And, you know, it was a moment of romance. And so it made for interesting stories, interesting people, and interesting tale. So Absolutely. And how did we end up writing for the wine spectator? Tell us a little bit more how you came into that position. Okay. Well, about the time that my first book was coming out, I contacted the wine spectator. Previously, I've grown a lot of travel and gastronomic type pieces for the Washington Post and other publications, but, it just sort of happened at that time in about two thousand eight. And I must also add to that after fifteen years in Fred about that in twenty fifteen, moved our home to Corona Italy. And, you know, where I'm focusing more on you know, Italian wine that's having this very interesting period in my opinion in all of its regions and all twenty regions. And what would you say is your general approach of your column with a wine spectator taking into consideration, you know, the long career you have in writing and in journalism, how did you think about approaching the column that you're still pending today? Well, it's called Robert Kabuto Meet, And I think that kind of sums it up because I think one of my forte's, you know, matter what I covered, was always writing about people. I'm super interested in people, what makes them tick, what makes them excited when they get out of bed in the mornings. And so interviews and profiles have always been kind of my thing. With the column, however, you know, I try to really mix it up. So some of it is winemaker profiles. Some of it might be it could be about a wine scene, a group of people, a new approach to a certain grape in a new region. It could be something kind of more amusing. It could be opinion. For example, I've developed a, a lot of opinions about Rose Eight Boom, which I see in some ways, having lived in provence largely as a travesty. We could explore that if you want, but more people can check out, some of my, pieces on that. And in some cases, it can be just interesting people doing interesting things. I, whether it's a, you know, eccentric actor, like John Malkovich, or recently, one of my pieces that'll be coming up is about a property called in a Petemont called Mora Mora. Was really interested in that because the founders are actually the guys. It's two of them, who started grom ice cream. What's interesting about that, it's a super interesting circle. Because, Gigo Martinetti, who is kind of the, the idea man, the founder, the farmer researcher type, His original degree was in a knowledge. He grew up in Beaumont Love wine to him. You know, Angelo Gaia was god. And he had a, sort of a, epiphany one day when he was out smoothing around in one of Gaia's, vineyards in Barbara, when he picked up a newspaper in a cafe after lunch, and there was an article by Carl Petrina of slow food saying, why is an ice cream made? Like, it used to be made. And so the whole idea that started growing this huge, well, you know, two hundred store change throughout the world was, what if I made ice cream Leangelo Guy makes wine. That would be interesting. So they did that for a number of years. And then, they sold that company to, Unilever. I think in two thousand nineteen, and and they invested that to go back into London. Very cool. And how do you, Robert? I mean, you talked about people being what intrigues you the most when it comes to storytelling. How do you ask the right questions or pull out the most intriguing, interesting stories from your subject? I would say I always like to hear people's story because their personal story is always fascinating. But I would say My basic idea and philosophy as far as storytelling is this because there's a lot of, I would say, maybe not so great storytelling and not so great stories in the world of mine. Classic example. Well, tell, you know, the generations, you know, what's your grasp of that. Yes. You know, and, yeah, some of that can be interesting. It's great. But to me, wine is culture, period. Simple stone. So when I approach one, what I want to know from people, if I, for example, hear from a wine rep or PR agency, you know, it's like, oh, you should come, taste these wines. I'm like, okay, Well, what's new here? How is the culture being advanced? And I'm always interested to hear that. So if people talk about, well, we've got this great, and we're trying to revive it. Okay. But what are you doing? What research How are you working in the vineyards with that? How are you doing things differently? What are you? So, you know, I think, again, wine is culture. It starts with agriculture. You know, they call it agriculture for reason. They don't call it agra ignorance, colored agriculture. And so, you know, these kinds of things are very interesting. So, like, going back to, like, say, wrong, you know, It's interesting to start that story sometimes in the vineyards. I mean, do these people know what's going on in their vineyards or no? Or is that for, you know, somebody they, you know, some crew they hire and they cut the vines and all that? So when you have some winemakers who maybe their approach is to absolutely have the smoothest expression of their grapes in their one What you sometimes find is, like, the way they cut the wines in in summer, you know, affects that. In other words, instead of, like, just trimming, like, they, you know, to have perfect little shrubs like they do in Napa, No. They they roll the tops. So it puts the vine under less stress and creates less bitterness in the fruit. You know, so those are like little kind of things tension to detail, you know, that is important. You go beyond goes beyond. Well, I got this great machine. You know, I got this great technologist, etcetera. Right. Like, yeah. Exactly. Like, you're doing something different and really tailored. In your approach that suits your space and connects maybe back to your larger region. Like you said earlier, it's agriculture. How do you fit into the culture of your region, your family, your story? And, Robert, you mentioned earlier on in the episode you've been living in Verona since twenty fifteen, and you've seen this new wave and new renaissance in Italian wine specifically in the in this new generation. Talk to us a little bit about what you mean by that, what you're seeing and what's really intriguing to you right now about this new generation in Italian wine specifically. Well, I think the, you know, like in some cases, where you have areas that are under appreciated and undervalued. And, you know, the game that seems to me and the story behind the storytelling, it's How can people valorize their terms? So that seems to be, you know, the real story behind the whole Italian rhino song, you know, Ymanos songs, which may have started. Say, for example, in the eighties, with in the Piedmont, in Tuscany, Gaia, and now we see that, you know, spreading to all different areas. So I almost hesitate to not talk about it, Mount Tetna, essentially, which is subject I know quite well, having written my, you know, my book, Paul Minto. It's the same way I ought to see which came out in two thousand ten and having seen the early phases of the Aetna renaissance boom. I say I don't want to hesitate not to talk about it, and because it's so, you know, held up as this wow, you know, success story. But I think what happened there is, you know, before twenty odd years ago, you know, Edna Reds you know, in particular, you know, weren't that great. They were sold in, like, bottles that, you know, to tourists, but, you know, that looked like lava or something like that, really cheesy. I mean, there weren't really oriented to quality, but it took certain people coming in from outside, Andrea Fronquette from Tuscany, Marco de Grazia from Tuscany, California, wherever, you know, Frank Cornelison coming from Belgium joining with other locals who've been there before, you know, Salmofoty who worked for Menati, people like, Giuseppe Russo, Tokrachi. Chiro Byeong. I mean, the list goes on. But I think that really created an interesting, exciting scene of a generation that was doing things that the people on that land or their own parents and uncles were not doing. You know, I think it comes about from people discussing, okay, what do we have here? What is our terroir line? Well Aetna's not really southern. I mean, our our climate, under our face, especially. It's very Kimonese. It's a very much of a cool climate. And I think with this new generation, these are people who've traveled, who've been, you know, so when you, you know, they've been to people. Right. They've been to these quality areas. So it's not just like, well, this is what my neighbor does. This is what that neighbor does, but it's like, okay, I've seen Burgundy. I've seen, you know, Piamonte. I've seen these places that have developed cultures of excellence. And what can I take from him to bring back here to interpret my own territory? And You know, I think that's where things get really exciting. Italian wine podcast, part of the momo jumbo shrimp family. Right. Of people really reinventing themselves, but also the regions in which they're born and raised coming back with global perspectives and and bringing fresh approaches. How do you think, Robert, you obviously are born in in New York and worked in journalism in in the US for for many years? How do you think we can translate these stories effectively to US consumers, especially in a time when options can seem, you know, unlimited in a wine shop as well as not just wine. There's cannabis. There's other things that people are partaking in when it comes to recreation. How do you think we take some of these stories, these niche regions, and really translate them to today's consumer for the US market? Okay. And before I answer that, I wanted to add one little thing to the previous question, if I may? Yes, please. And that is that I think one of the biggest changes that's happened in Italy and throughout the wine world is that for the previous generations wine was a source of calories. I mean, it was really part I mean, you talk about the Mediterranean diet, and it was like bread, you know, and workers in the south, we get, like, you know, a kilo of bread and a liter of wine, and that was their kind of daily sustenance. And I think it's gone from that, not all at the same time, but in stages, from a source of calories to a source of pleasure. And so I think in that way, adopting modern tastes. I mean, we don't need the calories anymore if anything, people are running from them. You know, we need more sedentary lives. You know, so people are searching for different things. You know why, elegance, you know, pairings with certain foods. Experience. Right? People looking to be transported sometimes to a memory they might have had from a trip or maybe discovering a new region through a bottle. Right. You know, I would say very roughly to your very last question, which was how do we interpret that and sell that? You said the word experience. And I, you know, I think that's really the future. I mean, if you talk about Italy, I mean, to me, Italy is, to me, one of the most beautiful countries in the world. They need to do a lot of work on that, not take it for granted, not, you know, allow litter and cigarette butts in certain cities, you in the center of verona. I'll get my kitchen there. But I think that when people touch a place, it leaves lasting impressions on them. And You know, I think the same is true for vineyards, for the wine country here, you know, just as it is for, you know, seeing the incredible architecture, you know, from Roman times. And so I think When you experience that kind of like Italian regional life, which Italy really is a collection of regions, it's not really a country. You know, you know, it's truly a collection of regions. But, I think when someone goes to a typical trattoria, which would be hard to find these days in Rome, and you drink like a bottle of Chizanese. I mean, I think you take that experience home and you wanna recreate that experience. And I think Italy has, you know, is, you know, just abounds with those kind of experiences. I talked about Jose before, but, you know, I think it was the same thing, even though I mock you know, provence Roset and blah blah blah. People bought, you know, they would go on vacation in the south of France. They have this bottle that's reflecting the sunset, the light. And, you know, they're in a good mood. They taste it by the sea. And then they go home, and they're like, it's Friday night. And, you know, that's what they wanna open and share with their friends. Right? Yeah. No. Absolutely. I think that recreation of that memory as we know too, so many Americans are traveling to Italy and not just now to, you know, that the Rome, Florence Venice, Venice, but, you know, your studio. Right? We've seen this huge influx of tourism in that region, Sicily, of course. So being able to translate, you know, those experiences back to what they're purchasing when it comes to wine. Hopefully, that carries through. Right. Now you mentioned Twilio. You know, I think that there are regions that have super strong identities like system, dusting, you know, etcetera. Cool yeah for me. It's a big vast region with a lot of production, but they need to work on integrating the experiences and the culture. I would say pulled yeah has a very under cultivated wine culture. What do you think they could be doing better or, you know, how do you think they could approach or look at as a region better integration of culture into the wine industry there? I'm not quite sure, but I know when I go to Pulia, and when I go to a restaurant often, I mean, good restaurant, good food, buzzy, go to blah. You open the wine list. It starts as many wine lists do in Italy with Champagne because Italian adore Sure. You know, but then normally, like in Tuscany, you would say, okay, these are our local sparkling. These are our local whites. These are our local breads. And then they have these are the other regions of Italy. Often in pool here, you go into the restaurant and then got like, okay. Well, here are the Tuskin wines, and here are the Pemon tasting wines. And then at the end of the wine card, you've got some local selections. So that's not good. I think that Hulia has some very interesting underdog grapes that haven't really been cultivated. There's hasn't been enough of a scene quite yet. And I think that some of the ones like the, Primativo de manjoria can be a little bit, you know, heavy on the palate to most people. I know they're working on. You know, Primativo to do, you know, some different things. Primativo from other areas like Joyado Cola is maybe more it's more in touch with maybe my taste. Less alcoholic, less ripe, more, you know, seeking freshness. And so I think Pollia's got amazing potential. You know, I don't wanna poo poo it in that respect, but, I just think there needs there's more work to be done in the subregions and in the communication of that. That's a fair point. And a ripe opportunity too for the region as more and more Americans are petting to that way to evolve hopefully and better capture perhaps the wine culture of of that region. But that's interesting your comment on the on the wine list that the putting the wines even towards the back. So maybe the primary focus for them, they've overdeveloped on the hospitality side in ways maybe other regions haven't and perhaps have underdeveloped when it comes to the wine. It sounds like. Yeah. And that's a good point because, you know, I think the wine culture also changes the experience of people. For example, now on Aetna, you know, you go into a, like a wine bar, a summer, Maria. I mean, you see young people there you know, tasting the wine sniffing, you know, there's a culture of young songs that young people are not necessarily leaving for for other parts. They can stay there and make a living, which is pretty exciting. They don't have to go to Milan or other points around the world. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, Robert, as we wind down, and thank you for all the insights and and your thoughts that you shared today. It was super interesting conversation. We like to do our little rapid fire quiz. So if you can do your best answer these questions in just one or two sentences. Question number one, what is your number one tip for mastering the US wide market? I would say for mastering the US wide market, travel to the US. And travel as much as possible around and touch the various markets and, talk with people there because, you know, I think as you know, Juliana, you lived in California. Now you live in New York, and, you know, the difference between the Manhattan market and the Brooklyn market is Oh, yeah. Huge. Like Stark. And I, you know, I think the state would apply from, you know, San Francisco to Napa to the, Sonoma to Southern California. So I think in that same way as you go out storytelling, be a good listener and go find the story in the markets you wanna be president. Yeah. I think that's a really, really good advice. Absolutely. Question number two, what is something you might have told your younger self about working in the wine industry, writing in in wine? I think what I would tell myself is there's an exceptional amount of BS in the wine world. I shouldn't be totally negative about that because let's face it. We're in the wine world partly because many of us because we're romantics, and we love that. But we need to keep that healthy dose of skepticism even in wine just as we do for other subjects. And, you know, I was thinking about, like, one subject that comes to mind is amfarah. There was a time when a Ymaker said, oh, I'm using amfor. And, you know, if you're with a group of people, you could see their eyes like becoming like they were under a spell. And an amfor is just an instrument for making wine. I mean, it's no different than a, you know, like a Barrick, a barrel, a blah blah blah blah, but it's evocative. So maybe b s is not the right word, but there's a lot of poetry that You know, we gotta balance that. You know, kind of check that. So that would be my advice. Healthy dose of skepticism when you're, you know, approaching stories or looking in, you know, into the industry. Well, go deeper. Go deeper. You know, more you know, we get questions. Okay. What does an amphora do for you? You know, have you tried anything else, or is that the only, you know, so it's just important to stay curious and not be mesmerized. Right. Go beyond the surface. Absolutely. Okay. And finally, you travel a lot. We all do in this industry. Your first response was travel more to the US market. What is one of your favorite travel hacks when traveling from work or for pleasure? Okay. Well, I travel a lot in Europe. In Italy, in particular. And this is kind of a new travel hack. It's a new idea, and it is to avoid UNESCO sites. This is a terribly cost personal thing to do because Italy likes to say, well, we have more UNESCO sides than any country in the world, which is true. It only is number one. I think that's like a hundred and fifty something that has more than China, which is number two. Wow. But the problem is that the way a lot of people travel now, going to the Genesco sites has almost become like a Instagram bucket list. And I find that some time and all my amazing charm of place gets lost when the tourist coach pulls up. So I would say, always, in Italy, get lost, find the place that may not be the, you know, three stars in the, you know, Michelin Torres Guide, and and find the typical spaces that may not be as spectacular and significant to the world patrimony. But, you know, may provide you a little more pleasure because you can experience them in peace. You know, you can hear the wind in the trees. You can hear the chowder of locals and So that's my advice. Go off the grid. Get off the beaten track. I love that. Well, thank you so much, Robert, again, for being here today in the Italian wine podcast. How can our listeners connect with you and your writing and everything that you're working on. Check out my column. It runs twice a month in the wine spectator. It's called Robert Camuto Meets. So it's free. You don't have to be a subscriber to read that. So go to wine spectator for that. And then there's my website that has books and different news and all that robert kannuto dot com. And I'm on all the, you know, Instagram, Twitter, blah blah blah, although I'm not a big, I mean, less and less interest, loving social media. But Alright. Well, thank you again, Robert, for being here. I'm the Italian One pack box. Thank you, Juliana. Thank you. Welcome to Mastercost US Market with me, Juliana Colangelo. This show has been designed to demystify the US market for Italian wineries through interviews of experts in sales and distribution, social media, communications, and so much more. We will quiz each of our esteemed guests at the end of each episode to solidify the lessons that we've learned. To sharpen your principles, get out your notebooks, and join us each week to learn more about the US market.