Ep. 1983 Vanessa Conlin | Masterclass US Wine Market With Juliana Colangelo

The Italian wine podcast is the community driven platform for Italian winegeeks around the world. Support the show by donating at italian wine podcast dot com. Donate five or more Euros, and we'll send you a copy of our latest book, my Italian Great Geek journal. Absolutely free. To get your free copy of my Italian GreatGeek journal, click support us at italian wine podcast dot com, or wherever you get your pods. Welcome to Mastercross US Market with me. Juliana Colangelo. This show has been designed to demystify the US market for Italian wineries through interviews of experts in sales and distribution, social media, communications, and so much more. We will quiz each of our esteemed guests at the end of each episode solidify the lessons that we've learned to sharpen your principles, get out your notebooks, and join us each week to learn more about the US market. Hello. Welcome to Masterclass US wine market. Today, I'm thrilled to welcome Vanessa Kalman to the Italian wine podcast. Vanessa is an M. W based in Napa who does work on behalf of Sotheby's, as well as a number of other fine wine clients. She's previously worked with e commerce provider wine access, as well as a number of other luxury brands in Napa. Vanessa, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here. Thank you so much, Julian. I'm a big fan of the show, so I'm thrilled to be here. Oh, thank you. It's always very fun to interview and and chat with old friends. So I'm very excited to have you here today. But before we dive into our conversation, around the auction market for Italian wine and luxury wines. Just tell us a little bit more about your journey to becoming a master of wine. I mean, that's such an incredible achievement that not many can boast. So tell us a little bit more about your background. Well, thank you. It was definitely the hardest thing and the best thing I think I've ever done. I, you know, I I got into the wine business when I was living in New York. I ended up going to college at Manhattan School of Music to pursue a career in opera. So I really didn't have wine on my radar at all. Initially, I didn't come from a wine family, my family are musicians, and I just sort of assumed that that's what I was gonna do. And, you know, I love music, but, you know, being surrounded by so much food culture and wine culture in in New York, there was something that, like, really was interesting to me and reminded me of music in a way. The words that we use, even like harmony and balance or, you know, there's a certain sort of theatric element even to just, you know, opening a bottle of wine, was something that intrigued me and I wanted to learn more about. So essentially, you know, I I started, at the very bottom, I started taking some amateur classes, in New York. It completely captivated me, and I decided to kind of start over completely. So I, you know, worked my way up through the WSTT classes in New York. I took a job at a retailer on the upper west side for, literally, like, minimum wage. I mean, just to learn just to be around the fire and hear her talk and describe wines and sit in on the tastings. And, you know, I kind of never looked back. I I still love music. It's such a part of my life. But once I got the bug, you know, there wasn't any turning back. So After working in New York, for several years, I worked for an importer. As I mentioned, I'd work for some retailers. I ended up working my way up in to be the the buyer and the manager of that first retail store where I worked as well as for another retailer and a wine bar. Okay. And In my studies though, at that point, I was still in diploma. I had never worked around vineyards and production. And, of course, I'd taken trips out to, you know, various wine regions, Napa being one of them and just felt this calling, like, I need to be around the vines. This is, you know, I need I need this as as part of my, not just my wine career, but, like, my soul, you know, to be around these living Yeah. And then watching it happen every year, you know, over starting over and and seeing what mother nature is gonna hand us. So so I moved out here to, to Napa Valley, you know, started working for some luxury properties. And when I finished a diploma, I I really thought that was as far as I was gonna go. I I to be honest, I was a little burnt out. It's a lot of work. It's it's a lot of work, and I was starting my kind of new life out here. And, but I I would say after a short period of time, two things happened. One is that There's amazing, community of of MWs out here, of which I, you know, became friends with a number of them. And so I feel fortunate that I was able to sort of ask questions and be guided about, you know, what the journey would be so I could confidently enter the program. And the other was just like, you know, I I was working at a winery at the time, and I would get frustrated with myself. Let's say, if the winemaker was talking about something, I didn't fully understand it. You know, it was talking about pH or something, you know, I just was like, god, I really, you know, I I miss learning. I realized. So I started the MW program, and, you know, that I I never looked back. It was, an amazing journey. And I I say really, aside from the knowledge, just the best part was the the people that I've met along the way. Now I have there's a fantastic study group out here that I would meet with every Sunday, and we saw each other at our very best, and we saw each other at our very worst. And there's a certain, you know, amount of, like, bond, family bond and trust that that is, you know, invaluable. So these will those will be my friends for life. Oh, yeah. That's incredible. And do you think moving to Napa from New York City really inspired that decision to take the leap to become an MW? That's a good question. I think I probably would have become bored eventually without learning, you know, without continuing to learn because I'm just a very intellectually curious person, but I I don't know that I would have come to it as soon, and and I think it would have been a lot harder. You know, there's, I mean, obviously, such a plethora of amazing wines to to enjoy in New York, and there's a good amount of people sitting there. But I just think being here, being around the vineyards, being able to really go up to, you know, a winemaker and just say, like, let me just shadow you for an afternoon. Right. It was, you know, invaluable learning experience. And, you know, I vineyard managers who would let me literally, like, sit in their pickup truck and just ask them a million questions as they're driving around kind of checking on vineyards. And so that's amazing. I think I think I still would have done it, but it wouldn't have been as easy a choice. And I don't think it would have been I think it would have been a much harder choice. Right. Yeah. And not just are you curious, Vanessa? You're very high achieving. I would add as well. Well, great. And it's great to hear a little bit about your story and and for our listeners as well to just understand your your journey from from musician to to master of wine and what you're doing today. So today, Vanessa, we're gonna talk about the luxury and collectible market for Italian wine and our three key takeaways for our master class. Our number one, what wines and categories are trending right now in the luxury market in Italian wine? Number two, how are back vintage Italian wines doing in the collectors market and some of those older, older vintages? And then finally, what are some of the future and growth opportunities for the Italian wine segment in this luxury sector? And this is a topic we have talked about before on the podcast, but it's one that I really like revisiting because I think there's a lot of untapped potential opportunity in this space, that our audience is especially interested in. So just for starters. I like to start with definitions. What is your definition of luxury wine? So this is a really it's a great, and it's a tough question because I think it's very easy to try to simplify it to price. And I've, you know, I've heard other people's definitions. I've I've read them. You know, I've I've heard other MWs even talk about, you know, give it a number where it's a hundred dollars or five hundred dollars. You know, when setting for the MW exam, often for the practical, which is the blind tasting, we'd be asked to put a price on it. And for considering MW, we have to understand the entire's market, not just the luxury buyer, you know, fifty dollars was my definition of luxury when I was blind tasting. And then, you know, beyond that, maybe ultra luxury was over a hundred. But when you think about the entire world of wine drinkers, fifty dollars is pretty luxurious for for a lot of people. Yeah. Absolutely. So so for me, you know, I think there's a lot of talk of, obviously, it has to be high quality. I've heard, like, Liz Tash, who's an MW. She says it has to come from a special place on earth. She also defines it as as being scared, and provides a sense of privilege and pleasure to the owners is her definition. I agree with a lot of that. I think what I don't necessarily agree with in my definition is scarcity. Okay. Because I I think if you look at something like the even the first growth bordeaux's, or let's look at Don pairing you on her crew, these are not houses or chateau that are afraid of volume at all. Great for me. And they still are considered luxury, ultra luxury, wines. But I do think that whether it's small production, large production, whether it has the scarcity or, you know, what I think we can all agree on sometimes is a manufactured sense of scarcity, I think for me, the definition would be consistency over time. Okay. A pure enjoyability, aspect. And then I think that it's this perception for the consumer of specialness. And I don't think specialness has to be small quantity, medium, large. I think that it's the desirability, and I think the ability to to tell a story, of that house, of the place. And, of course, has to deliver quality to price ratio, whatever that price is. Right. And I think that story part, yeah, you touched on and especially in the context of you said some some larger houses in the Champaign category, for example, beyond story too, I I might add just the the value that the consumer feels when they are drinking your product. It's like putting on a pair of Gucci shoes, right, or manolo blonics. There's an inherent just value that you identify with that brand when you wear that piece of clothing or those shoes. And the same way when you open this bottle of wine in the luxury space, the brand gives you a certain level of feeling, you know, to to luxury too. And I think that's something that is is is valuable as well to to think about in this space. It's just what's that inherent value that you're giving to the consumer by way of your brand? What what are you transposing to them by way of them putting your wine on their table. Right? I I completely agree with you and I think, you know, people gravitate toward brands that they identify with for whatever reason, it's style, it's the history, it's the, yeah, the and maybe it is sometimes it's the price tag or the scarcity, but it but I agree with you that story, like, something has to connect you beyond just a price tag. There's this this word that or this phrase that, you see us at a previous position that I've always this always stuck with me, which is kind of the social currency, which is, you know, if you were to walk into a party with a bottle of wine, or you're gonna walk in with your manolo blahniks or, you know, someone asks you, well, why, like, what is it about that? What made you decide to wear that or what made you decide to bring this bottle? If they have to really struggle to explain, like, why it was special enough that they wanted to share it or wear it, then I don't think that's a brand that has longevity. Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely. You need to the consumer needs to understand the value that your brand is bringing to them. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, thinking a little more specifically about Italian wines in this space, what brands, what categories do you historically see performing well when we think about that luxury market? So I think, like, defining our terms on this question is kinda where I wanna start. So, you know, when we talk about performing well, are we talking about, because I have thoughts on both, but, like, is it literally like quantity sold, you know, and profitability? Or is it, you know, reputation, let's say? So I think, you know, when we look at things that are performing well, just talking about sort of saturation of the market, obviously, these are brands that have good PR departments, you know, marketing departments. So the the la obviously, the larger companies because they have the money, the financial, strength behind them to do well. I think, though, too, there's something, like, when I when I think the first thing I think of with Italian wines in terms of a category or region a place doing well. It's it's super tuscans. And I think that, obviously, we have some huge names there that people understand, you know, the Ornelias, the SASakayas, the Tinanellos, these you know, have this cache and this interesting story, but I think there's also something to be said for just the varieties used. You know, it's when you look at Italy, it's a place where if you're a Bordeaux drinker or you're an Napa drinker, you know, you can identify with with some of these varieties, these blends. That's easier to understand. Now I personally am a huge fan of, you know, Piedmont, but I think when talking to consumers, it's a much harder to understand if you're saying, well, what's, you know, or do you which crew do you like? Do you like Canoebe or Mont bravado or Bucia, like, it's a deeper dive to really kind of understand that place than something like Tuscany, which I think is, you know, I think it's much easier to Right. Exactly. I think, you know, we were talking specifically about the US market here. I'm glad you brought that point up Vanessa about how well a super testing category might translate for the US consumer who maybe started their wine journey in Napacab, and that's where they started spending more money on wine. To transfer over to a wine like a Sassakaya or an Alaya than perhaps some of these more esoteric wines. So that's that that makes a lot of sense. And I guess, you know, if you can elaborate a little bit more when we think about that, those categories. Talk to us just a little bit how you see them actually executed in the market in terms of, like, how they're being sold. Is it through auction? Is it through consultants and, like, fine wine? Advisors, is it on at restaurants? Is it off premise? Like, talk to us just a little bit more about that. So I think all of the channels that you named, are important. Of course, we've got, you know, yes, we have on and off province, comments. We have restaurants, you know, collectors. We've got auction. We've got e commerce. We have a lot of people who are doing private sort of hand sell VIP kind of, sales as well that's really, doing very well in in the market, in the US market, I should say. So I I think, I think all of those are feasible. I would say it's almost this this could be like a whole topic for podcasts because I think when we look at certain things, Let's use e commerce for one. So I think if you look at, you know, these sites that are designed, they send email, email marketing out. It's they're successful on a number of different in a number of different ways. Usually, value, right? You have to grab somebody very quickly because everybody's inundated with a gazillion emails these days. So is it a is it a discount? Is it the score that it receives? Like, it has to be really quick. And that's how those brands are successful. Whereas, I think if you have, let's say, like, a specialty retailer or, a restaurant with a, you know, a great so many, they have the, the time and the luxury to sort of tell the story behind the brand. But what I wanted to say was, like, that doesn't mean that there can't be success in both. And it's kind of you're leading into, you know, because sort of going back to something you brought up, but something I definitely wanna talk about more is that story because even if you're looking at something like a, you know, e commerce site where there usually is a big hook. Like, you still have to have something. You still have to have be, but what's your elevator pitch about about your brand, about your wine that you make? Because, And please know and take offense. I think terroir is excruciatingly important to to to wine. But, like, everybody talks about, well, we make wine with, you know, a sense of place with terroir. Well, So does pretty much everybody else? Like, that's what we're all trying to do. Right? And so I think really under understanding what differentiates you. And you can that can be a short that can be like a one sentence, you know, a one liner, or that can be a a long form story that someone's going you latch on to and tell you table side at a Michelin restaurant. But I think it there has to be a there there. Right. And and and and we're talking specifically about Italy, of course. I would say this probably to, you know, wineries from any region. But I think especially going back to your original question about what's doing well, it's much easier for something like a Supertest and for the reasons that we talked about. But that doesn't mean that, like, Barolo can't have that same opportunity, but I think they need to, you know, what my advice would be get really clear. Right. Really clear on what's your story. Mhmm. You're really clear on what's the brand proposition and the value here so that you help them, get into the category I understand. Yeah. I think that is really, really valuable advice. I think for those of us who are in Italian wine and love Italian wine, you know, we don't even think about the complexity anymore of the regions of the laws, of the labeling, and how confusing it can be for a consumer. So taking that that step back, even for a fine wine consumer who might be drinking a lot of French in California wine, Italian wine can be intimidating in terms of how to understand it. So I think Vanessa, that is that is really, really super valuable advice for our listeners. Italian wine podcast, part of the Mamma jumbo shrimp family. Talked about this a little bit, you know, in our intro about the value proposition of luxury wine, but let's talk about today. I mean, you know, things have changed so much in the last five years and in the wine industry and how people are consuming wine, buying wine, What do you think the consumer right now in the in the luxury space of the space in which you're engaged is looking for when they're looking to, engage with the brand or they're gonna make a big purchase on a specific producer? What do you think they're really looking for? So I think, I'm really glad you asked me this question. As I think there's also, we're, of course, especially for this podcast and this takeaway, like, we wanna keep things simple. But I one thing that is a little complex is I think that there isn't one luxury tire. You know, I don't think it's one homogeneous group and it's something that you said that I think is really, really sharp and and correct, which is that what is it worth to you? If it's that type of, is it stat is it status? And that's fine. You know, I I will not name the the winery, but it's out here and not, but I've been fortunate enough to have tasted it. But it's very hard to taste. It's very expensive. It's it is very scarce. And, you know, but I've had people say, well, well, is it worth it? And I say, well, it's a be it's a beautiful bottle of wine, but, you know, it's a lot more expensive than other beautiful bottles of wine and then it but that says that it is it worth it to you? And if it is, then a hundred percent you should buy that bottle, you know, but whatever reason it is. If it's status, if it's, you know, if it's because you really are gonna drink it, then then great. But it's kind of what's it worth What's what is it worth to you as the consumer? But I think to go a little bit back to your I think the core of your question is what they're looking for is times have really I mean, they changed slowly in the wine business, obviously, and there's been a lot of talk of, you know, of the different cohorts and how they're behaving or engaging or not engaging with wines. But I think it goes back to that unique selling proposition But I but I think it's it really is a step beyond that. You know, there's a human need for connection. Right? And and this is what I've always loved about wine is, like, that, you know, it brings us together at a table or over a conversation, and we can disagree. We can agree. We can, you know, pick out different things, but, like, we're connecting in a way that we're using our senses. So when we're talking, I'm not saying, well, my Excel formula is different than yours. It's like, well, no. We're This is what I'm literally seeing, smelling, tasting, feeding. You know? And so the better that we can become at actually really being able to to help people whether it's virtually or in person, like, form that connection, I think that that's that's that's super valuable to to any luxury that they wanna understand especially if they've never had it. What what am I expecting? I'm gonna spend a lot of money on this bottle. What's in the bottle? And kind of why should I care? What does it taste like? What's it's what's special? But I think I think the other thing that I'd like to highlight about today's consumer luxury, and other is is I think people care about things that they maybe didn't, you know, in previous generations, like social responsibility. You know, I think that that more and more consumers are asking questions, like, how is this wine made? Is it sustainable? Was it organic? Was it biodynamic? I think, you know, there was an article, recently that I read about how more and more, wineries are are becoming, b corporations, which is showing, you know, the social responsibility for the environment, but also for people. You know, how how are we treating the people that are actually making this one. Right. And so I'd say that there's if I was launching a brand or even had an existing luxury brand, in the market, I'd say, like, think about that and think about how you're going to tell your story in a way that shows what you're doing if you are in terms of to be real, of course. It has to right. It has to be real because I actually one thing consumers are really, really great at is they can they can they can tell if if it's not Absolutely. You know, they're yeah. So in a tell your genuine story, but I think think about those, the things that you're doing to show that you care about people and the planet. And I think that that goes a lot further than in previous generations, or maybe it was more just really based on score. Right. Exactly. And I think, you know, back to what you said earlier about really showing the the value of your wine, but also the expectation know, I think what what comes to mind for me is you have to be here in the market presenting your wine yourself in a way and creating experiences and looking for partners, whether it's a Sotheby's or an auction house, or it's a luxury retailer or a great restaurant account, but looking for ways and strategies to get in front of these consumers directly to tell your story, explain your wines, and hopefully build lifelong connections with those consumers. It's it's it's not necessarily about placing an ad or social media marketing, I think, for this market, but it's it's it's more about that one on one hand sell type of marketing and and really being here physically or having a presence in some way physically in the market to to build those relationships with this consumer. I totally agree with that, Juliana. Exactly. And that's where Vanessa, you've come in in so many ways. Right? You've you've been such an incredible ambassador through your roles, on behalf of so many brands to introduce and tell the story of these wines to to consumers. And I think, you know, that that's just can't be understated how important that is in this space. So I wanna talk a little bit about old vintages. I love drinking my birthday in nineteen ninety. It was a great vintage. Yeah. But I think old vintages get people excited and are one way At least in my role, I've seen a a way to highlight the history, the authenticity of a brand, but also show the investment potential of a wine, right, by opening a bottle from the nineteen sixties or the nineteen seventies So do you think, there's an opportunity for the Italian wine category specifically in the collector space with old vintages? I know, you know, people boast about their burgundies and their birdos and their older vintages. But what about, for Italian wines? What do you think? I think it's huge. I think it's a huge opportunity. Yes. And it, you know, I think also having those older vintages in the market can build your luxury brand in a way because it goes back to part of my definition, which is consistency over time. So if people have tasted a a younger vintage, that's great. But, like, how is this gonna age? Do I wanna collect this? You know? So I think I think if you have those vintages, those library vintages, and you can, have them in the US market, I think it's huge, you know, would when I worked at e commerce, if we had the opportunity to offer an an older vintage, I mean, we would sell out just, you know, almost instantly because it's it's more rare these days too. Of course, especially with urban living that people have the opportunity to hold on to bottles for a long period of time. So through that, but then I I also think, you know, restaurants, it was recently at Cafe Carmelini, in New York, which is kind of like the hot spot right now. But, you know, they've MS is the wine director, loves loves Italian wine, like, really went deep and vintages on certain things. And, I mean, I would go back there in a heartbeat because of that because, you know, I sure I I collect bottles, but, when I have the opportunity to buy something with some maturity. I jumped in. Yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, if you have a seller and you have those old vintage wines maybe looking at your US partners and, whoever you're working with to to get those wines to market, sounds like it's a great way. Like you said, Vanessa, to show the value to show the consistency of the brands. Absolutely. Absolutely. Beyond the old gintages, you know, as we just talked about, do you think there's other potential opportunities in the luxury wine sector for Italian wine let's say beyond the obvious, which I'll state as Supertuscan, bravo, and, you know, Barolo. Beyond those three big categories, do you think there's some other regions, even specific producers things that you're seeing pop up in your world for Italian wine in the luxury space. Absolutely. Yes. I mean, I think, sicilian wines are having a huge moment. You know, I think that, you know, yeah, that, you know, hugely gastronomic wines and and, in the grand scheme of things, I think you can find some amazing values. So, absolutely. And then, and even something, you know, I was, I was in Japan, earlier this spring, and I was really I was in Okinawa. And I was fascinated to found Palobeya on a list there. Yeah. And and which I, you know, I discovered here in the United States, and and I'm a fan. But, I think that just even shows, like, for these really unique high quality wines, again, going back to the story. Like, that's an interesting story. And, you know, he has a unique style. There's there's massive opportunity not just in the US, but but globally. Yeah. Yeah. Palow, that's interesting. That a producer like that in Japan, you'd find. And I think that goes back too. I think to to some of the the inherent value that that that brand holds for the the consumer. I know when I sold wine at Italy, I mean, Palow Bayow was ten over ten years ago was definitely, a desired producer and people come in looking looking for those labels. So thinking about how a brand like that created this story or this legend around their wines to create that demand in the market. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, as we wind down, this is such a great conversation. It could go on for for much longer, preferably over, a beautiful old vintage glass of a kiathy class ago. Yeah. Maybe next time. But as we wind down, we'll do our rapid fire quiz that we do at the end of every episode. So if you can do your best to answer these questions in just one or two sentences, that would be great. Mhmm. Question number one, what is your number one tip for mastering the US wine market? So I think it really goes down to either spending time here or having someone on the ground with a that's your importer, your distributor consultant that can guide you because it is so complex. You touched on this earlier, Juliana. I mean, laws just by state or so painfully, complicated. Oh, yeah. Having someone that you know and trust that can guide you. And then understanding too that it's, you know, it's the US isn't just one market. We've got, you know, the coastal cities. We've got the Midwest, which people sometimes you know, forget about. But, I I read somewhere. I think, like, the number one, state for, you know, millionaires with homes or billionaires is Wyoming. And some of these people, these collectors don't you know, they don't just live in one place. They wanna drink well no matter where they are. So Absolutely. I just come back and ask them food and wine, you know, I mean, tell you there's a lot of, wealthy people out there. No doubt. Exactly. Exactly. So just remembering it's huge country. There's lots of different opportunities and don't, you know, don't forget about the ones that aren't the obvious. Great advice. Question number two, what is something that you might have told your younger professional self about working in the wine industry? Question. Okay. Well, what I didn't see coming, I guess, was sort of this social influencer phase, you know, like, I think that, the that there's still such a huge value on expertise, but I definitely didn't didn't see that coming that there was gonna be this sort of rise of, kind of peer reviews, and just the the impact that social for good or for bad, that social media can have on on the trajectory of a of a certain brand or even a style of wine. Right. Or even an individual. Right? I think, you know, these days too, just if you're a professional in wine, the way you're using your own social media, whether that's LinkedIn or, Instagram, can can play a big role in in your network. No. You're gonna go back to that human connection too. You know, like, is your is your social media is it actually telling your story or is it just kind of taking up space? Right. Exactly. I can't tell you how many people like now know that I like to run because I post about it on Instagram, and then that just becomes, a human factor and and the way that, you know, you interact with people in your in your community. Exactly. And finally, we all travel a lot in this industry, what is your when is one of your favorite travel hacks when you're traveling for work? I don't know if this is a hack or not, but, but I always travel with my, my eye mask and also my I have an app on my phone for white noise, which I can't tell you has come in so handy because, you know, I've I live here in Napa. I'm very lucky. It's not, you know, I'm not living with a bunch of, you know, sirens and traffic and stuff going by. So it's usually pretty quiet. And so when I travel, internationally or not, to be frank, you know, sometimes I'm just like, how do people how do people respond quickly? But, you know, my white noise machine has has saved me, many a times. That's a great tip. White noise machine. Okay. And or an app, you said, not even a separate machine, just an app on the phone. Right. I used I used to have a a little machine. It was pretty lightweight that I would cart around, but now there's, yeah, it's so easy now with, with apps. You can just use their use your phone. Great tip. Well, Vanessa, thank you again so much for joining us today. How can our listeners follow along and connect with you? Oh, thank you. So I'm on Instagram, at Vanessa Colin MW. I also, my website is Vanessa Kolin MW, so easy to to remember either way. So those are the the two best ways. Alright. Wonderful. Thanks again, Vanessa. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining me today. Stay tuned each week for new episodes of Master class US wine market with me, Juliana Colangelo. I remember if you enjoyed today's show, hit the like and follow buttons wherever you get your podcasts.