Ep. 2214 Barbara Fitzgerald interviews Erica Nonni | Masterclass US Wine Market

An expression that I love, which is that hiring an agency is like joining a gym. You have to show up to get value from your investment. So you can hire an agency and say, you know, go. Here's my media kit or write me a media kit, you know, press kit, and generate the coverage. Eventually, you're gonna burn out. The agency will not have the content they need. They won't have the personality that they need. And I can tell you, Mary, transparently, that the brands that talk to us every week, even every month that set deliverables, set deadlines that manage us. They get a great return on investment. Brands that think they can just hire an agency to do the communications work for them. Don't really. They really need to show up Welcome to Masterclass US wine market with me Barbara Fitzgerald. In this show, we'll break down the complexities of selling wine in the US by discussing the relevant issues of today with experts from around the globe. Each episode serves up three key insights to help elevate your wineries presence in the US market. So grab a pen and paper and let's pave the way for your success in the US. Hello, and welcome to Masterclass US wine market. Today, I am thrilled to welcome Erica, Nani to the show. Erika is the founder of Nani strategic marketing, which is a communications agency based in New York City with team members in the US and Europe. She founded NSM ten years ago, and she and her team of six worked with international fine wine and specialty food brands to build awareness and create demand in the US, the UK, and globally. So welcome to the show Erica. It's really nice to have you here. Thank you, Barbara. Great to be here. Yeah. Thank you so much for making the time. And before we dive into today's discussion, if you, Erica, could please tell us a little bit more about your background and how you came to work in the wine business. Absolutely. As you noted, Barbara, I founded my agency NSM or non strategic marketing in twenty fourteen. So we are celebrating ten years this year, which is very exciting. Congratulations. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And like for many people, my background in Italian wine started more with the Italian part, and the wine part soon followed. I was an Italian major in college, but I was premed, and I was good at languages. I'm also an Italian US dual citizen. So I figured declaring an early major in something unusual, like Italian might help me get into college, and it worked out pretty well. So I got to study at Georgetown, and I did my study abroad in Florence, although I was at the University of Florence and before I knew it, medicine was kind of a distant memory. And, I got really into international business and international affairs, which is bound to happen going to school in Washington, DC, but I didn't give up on on health care as an interest. And it actually factors even today into the work that we do in a way. But, through college, I worked three summers at the New York Stock Exchange. So it was really business oriented. Two of those summers were in the international division working with international listings. Then after college, I went to work for a division of McCann Ericsson, the big advertising conglomerate, and I worked in health care. I did pharmaceutical advertising, which was not as glamorous as it doesn't sound. I think we figured out that, yeah, that pharmaceutical advertising was not my dream. So I went and just kind of for fun. I did my WSTT level three, and I started a master's degree at the London School of Economics in Global Communications. Still thinking about a career in public diplomacy. But having done this W OCT course and gotten really into wine, just on a personal level, thinking that it was a, a hobby. I wound up deciding to write my master's thesis about the wine industry. And I worked throughout grad school at Audmonds, which is an important, chain in London. And through that, one thing led to another. I wound up meeting some fascinating people on seeing what fun it was to work in an entirely different, highly regulated product area. Different from pharma, but really woven into the fabric of culture and lifestyle and trends and restaurants and hospitality. And, the rest is history. So I came back to New York in two thousand nine. And I started working with agencies that do very much what my agency does today. I got to work with some great wine communicators, wine and food strategists in New York and learn from them. And by twenty fourteen, I had developed a nice community of contacts among international producers, so primarily Italian French and Spanish such that I was able to open my own agency. So again, that's ten years ago, and, and I feel so grateful. Yeah. What a great path too. I think as somebody else who's also Italian heritage, you know, that kind of artful side of wine really speaks to us, but I love all these detours that you've taken through health care and stock exchange, but it brings such a wealth of experience to to why. It does. Yeah. Yeah. So we are going to today what we're really excited to, learn from Erica about our three key takeaways are first, the important importance of being relationship centric in the wine industry. Second, the need for wine communicators to really have a sales mindset And third, what are some of the best practices for a winery either currently or looking to work with a communications agency? So let's dive right in. As we, you noted, the wine industry has really always been and continues to thrive off of face to face interactions. So how do you find that that's playing out in today's landscape? And what are some ways that producers can really build the most meaningful relationships? Yeah. So people, it's like the three roles of real estate are location location location three rules of marketing and certainly of wine and hospitality are people people people. We have a very high such industry as you said. This is a product that by definition is best enjoyed in community live in person. So people are everything. And I think that that's more true now as we hear so much about a shrinking pool of consumers and concern about lower consumption that we need to be higher touch with the people that are enjoying our wines, learning about our wines, showing they're interested. And so showing up in person remains really important, even in a digital age, picking up the phone bizarrely, I have found a beast so impactful because everybody has one, but nobody uses it to speak. And so picking up the phone whether it's to call a journalist and check-in or to call a buyer, an account, a friend, because we are all friends fundamentally in this industry. One of the greatest things about it is that people generally like their jobs and they're generally really cool. And so, so I find the phone is is really useful. And most of all, to be generous, you know, when you run an agency, Really, when you work in any sort of a service business, there can be a point where you feel like maybe you're giving too much. You're working too hard. You're you're working beyond your retainer, beyond your hours, whatever it is. But I found as I've gotten more into it that being generous always comes back. And I think this is true whether you're a winery, a salesperson for a distributor, an agency owner, a journalist, anyone, having that mindset, that posture of abundance, and of generosity has a huge impact. Especially true in the digital age, and it's especially true with Italians showing up for that. I found everything. You go to their house. You're part of their family. And then finally, you know, from where I sit specifically, this is not answering your question about what producers can do, but I do wanna note that the purpose of public relations, which is the bread and butter of what we do, is to make other people look good. It's to make wineries look good to make forward thinking winemakers become interesting to bring their story to life in a way that looks really good. Two journalists, two buyers to the end consumer. And so how does this work for a producer? Well, these are character traits to develop for anyone But I think from where I sit, choosing partners, whether it be your importer or your communications agency that can exhibit these attributes, these attribute of generosity, and going the extra mile and truly enjoying what they do and being willing to pick up the phone can make a difference. Yeah. Absolutely. I think too when we're talking about, you know, such actually communicating who you are to the press in these ways showing up really not just generous, like, with extra wine, but generous in your personality and who you really are. Like, don't hide behind close words. Right? Is that authentic? Personality really, I think is what makes the not the person who had the biggest, you know, return on investment last year, but the person who can really draw the most people in. Yes. Yes. For sure. So then, I think one of the most common piece of advice that wine producers especially in Italy are often given is to be present in the market. But from your marketing perspective, what are some ways that a winery can really be strategic about this to get the greatest return on their investment because being present outside of Italy is costly. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, there is being present in person. There's also being present digitally. We have to be strategic about timing. Timing is everything. You know, it's funny. We talked a little bit about sales, and I know we'll come back to that. But sometimes what you're trying to get out of your audience is not their money, but their time. Particularly when the audience audience is trade. And so being there, being present in the market, if we're talking about physically, one of the tips that I have that interestingly comes up more often than you might think is not coming to the market when everyone else does and expecting to get the kind of reception that you would like to see, expecting to get a great return on investment or a an efficiency of time. And I'll give an exam. Wineries will flock to, New York when there's a big wine show happening or they'll flock to San Francisco or increasingly Miami and Texas in general. And they'll be there in the company of lots of their peers who all have great things to say. And there's a discreet limited number of palettes and ears that are there to listen and to digest what they wanna share. And so although this seems intuitively or efficiently strategic, it's probably the worst time to work the market. Obviously, a producer, a winery has to listen to its importer and work the market and do the blitzes as they say when it works for the sales team. But barring that, I would say, try and meet people when they're less busy. Yeah. It's fairly obvious, but it's interesting how often we have to remind we try to remind our clients of that. Yeah. And then on the digital side, I think, working the market can be more personal than than it is. I think some American wineries do this fairly well, but take, for example, a market visit. You have a winery owner, a winemaker, a brand ambassador, even someone who really lives and loves the brand. Who meets with consumers or at minimum meets with influential retailers or or restaurant point of contact people, sommeliers, wine directors, and they have a real impact. They break bread over dinner. This happens all the time. If they could make a point to follow-up and and keep a database of an interesting fact about that person, to send them a note on their birthday, mention that interesting fact. On a very individual level, that person may not move mountains for sales, but that person knows many other people who will. And so word-of-mouth remains important. I think on the flip side, if you have tourists coming to your winery, which heaven knows Americans flock to wineries, you know, we're we're inundating Italy, I think more than ever post covid. And so have the mechanism whereby you gather people's birthdays, their wedding anniversaries, maybe they're traveling for that, and then send a personal note. And, you know, if we're talking about a winery that has DTC, which I know, a specialty of yours, Barbara, you can really integrate that very simple level of personalization that I see so seldom, particularly from foreign wineries. Yeah. I love that you called out the kind of having a way to remember details about people because it is something I talk about with my clients all the time is if you want to have a genuine relationship with this person, you have to talk to them like you talk to your friends. Remember when it's their birthday, remember that they don't like, you know, x, y, or z. So I appreciate that you're calling out that it's helpful to also maintain that, you know, in the distribution side or the press side. It doesn't have to just stop in a direct relationship. One other thing that I think we miss a lot is humor. And I think if you build on what you just said about personal, you know, having that way of integrating personal details, We're so serious. I know that part of that has to do with language differences, but I think brands that have a lighthearted that don't take themselves quite so seriously that don't dwell on the same keywords of tradition and innovation, they just do better. They they're more personal, they're more real, and and some are doing it well. And so having, for example, an entertaining newsletter that only goes out to people who really have had a true encounter with the brand where they feel that, okay, they're not the only one getting this newsletter, but they're part of a cohort of people who have had an experience, who've lived something, and then they feel emotionally connected to it, and they wanna share it. Maybe they forward it. Because they know their friends won't have seen it. Yeah. That sort of thing is pretty easy. Definitely. Using the people that already love you to be your brand ambassadors is like a silk clutch. Yeah. Absolutely. So you mentioned the need for wind communicators to have a sales mindset and we've kind of already been discussing this in terms of, you know, ways that they can be connected to their consumers and understanding the better timing. But anything else you wanna add to that motto? Absolutely. Working in marketing and communications, sometimes people will say that it's the other side of the coin from sales or it's even the antagonist to sales, who's getting the budget, who's getting the attention, who's getting the information. I think we are all in sales. Every single one of us that works in wine, whether we're making the wine or we're exciting people to talk about the wine, we're all in sales. So we are selling a story. We're selling a concept. In my case, in our case, you know, you work for an agency. You're always selling your services to potential clients, to existing clients, you're selling your clients' stories to the people who can amplify those stories. So a sales mindset for me is everything we do and I think it's a mistake to think of public relations, to think of communications or even marketing as the thing you do if you don't like sales. And having said that, I think sales is hugely gratifying because it is very much a person to person kind of encounter. Yeah. I agree. I think it's people are often led to believe, like, you're either in sales or you're either in marketing, but really everything is if we're trying to move a product, we're all on the boat together. Absolutely. And sometimes The currency of that sale is money. I think that's what we often think it is, but often it's time. And I said this earlier, you know, we're really looking for a resource that people feel is scarce and time more than money these days feels scarce. So it's a gift when they give you that time and and it's something that we're we're bidding for, let's say. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Time and I would say also even attention because people's attention spans are so inundated. So the two together are really may be the most valuable things out there right now. Absolutely. All that anybody listening to this podcast right now is doing five other things. Yeah. And that's the thing because that's what we all do. Yeah. So in the last couple of years, we've seen some pretty key strategic brand relationships emerge between wine brands and what I would say are maybe less traditional collaborators. So I think a lot about Fidelity who I know you work with an f one or Kendall Jackson and the NBA and nineteen crimes and ultimate fighting. So in your opinion, is this the future of reaching new audiences? And how could a a smaller winery initiate a partnership like this. So what should they be looking for in a partner? Yeah. So as you mentioned, I work we work with Sarah Eiento, and we've been working with them for eight years and counting now. And when they brought to us about four years ago, this idea that we would be the global toast of Formula One racing. I was stunned. I was like, you wanna work with what? Is this a national motors post? This is a luxury brand. What are you thinking. Well, I was incredibly off of base. Turns out Formula One is definitely a luxury brand. And as we've all seen in the US, the timing of that partnership was absolutely brilliant, and I have to hand it to the brand team who came up with it, where they identified a sport that was already very prestigious, very well regarded in Europe and knew that that sport's ownership was investing heavily in the US market, which is its own major focal market globally and in this case the wine brands most important export market for growth. And so I've seen the power of that investment firsthand, and I've seen it trickle down in a very granular way to what we're able to do. The amount of coverage we were able to get the scope of that coverage, the reach of free, you know, earned media has been extraordinary. And so I'm not going to pretend that this is something that anyone or you can do. I mean, it took the time. Obviously, it took great negotiation skills. Yeah. The timing to make such a deal in the height of COVID was really brilliant because they knew that events would happen again, that they would be able to kind of be on the upswing of both a cultural phenomenon that was being very well supported by its ownership. And the return to socializing. So that was just incredible. I think the NBA partnership is also really intriguing because, it's something that is kind of close to Americans hearts regardless of the part of the country that you're in and it reaches a variety of people that perhaps other sports don't golf, for example. Obviously basketball has a higher viewership. And here again, we're talking about a big brand. I'm sure we're talking about a big budget. This isn't something that any wine brand can say, okay, I'll I'll be next. Yeah. Sponsor the NBA. But I also think, you know, to answer your question about what could a smaller, quote unquote smaller brand and presumably with a much smaller budget think about. One area that I find very intriguing is pickleable. Oh, yeah. This is one where we cannot sell it. You know, people outside the US don't get it, but if you go to any public park in the US these days, I'm sure you've seen it, The lines on the tennis courts are painted over with lines for pickleball. It is not just for retirement communities anymore. I go to my gym, which is a very nice gym, and the line for the pickleball courts and the aggression get time on those courts is kind of insane. It's the fastest growing sport in the US. But if you can find an Italian winery that's willing to take a gamble on pickleball that's willing to believe you that this is actually a really prestigious, really exciting, fast growing opportunity. Send them my way. Yeah. Not it doesn't translate. It's it's really something that's happening here in the US. It's not paddle. It's it's not again for old people. And so I think being willing to step outside of what's obvious, you know, in one's own cultural context, and we're talking about imports here. We're talking about Italian wines. To make an impact in the US, an Italian run has to have a US mentality and has to be willing to take a risk on something that's not so big and so obvious that everyone already knows, you know, among there. So pickleball is where it's at. Yeah. And well, and as you mentioned, like, sure, Fennady, bigger brand, bigger budget, but that f one wasn't obvious even to you, a professional who's been doing this for so many years. So, yeah, it's all of even the bigger things are I think that's why we're excited about them is, like, now that they're here, we're like, how did we not do this before? But somebody had to innovate and kinda take the risk. And so hopefully that's a little push for a winery to to get excited about pickleball. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in this case, it's, as I said, it's not obvious to the brand, but it might be obvious to the brand's importer. It might be obvious to the brand's US communications agency. So listen to your partners in the market. Is blessing there. Definitely. So a kind of a little bit of a segue from partnerships, but let's talk about influencer marketing. And in your opinion, what kind of value does this have, especially for, you know, many of our smaller Italian wineries. And what are the some of the KPIs they should consider to measure the value of such a collaboration? Yeah. We've done this. We do a lot of influencer marketing, not just in wine. We actually do it a lot more with food, which from an age gating perspective, you can understand. Also an e commerce perspective, you know, although there is geo targeting and and advertising and boosting and all this, social media is a national. It's a global platform. They are global platforms. So we can't ignore them. I think there are some really wonderful people, fascinating people who are doing innovative things and they are not quote unquote just content creators, on social. They are not quote unquote just influencers. They often see themselves as members of the media and they are. They are journalists in their own right. They are sales people in their own right. And so we've tried, for example, using dedicated discount codes for wine dot com with, you know, trying to draw that line from social to sales, which is a little bit easier on social versus traditional PR. And I think for a large brand that has a really good distribution footprint, there's value there for an Italian brand barring just a few think it may be a bit harder and not just Italian, I mean, really for most non commercial, non mass production brands. It's a little bit murkier this drawing the line from social to sales. But I think having a symphony of voices that includes social media content creators and influencers as well as traditional media and of course scoring publications and brand advocates, word-of-mouth marketing. I mean, these are all valid But, you know, when I think about social and I think about line and I think about digital and I think about AI, I always come back to this idea that the most charming thing about why is that it is traditional. It is experienced with other people. Add a table or add a tasting bar or just with friends on a couch in your college dorm if you're twenty one, of course. So, you know, how it gets to the table has changed. You might see it on Instagram and you might click through and you might order it for delivery But the table hasn't changed. The place where people have this emotional experience is still in person. They're still physically drinking the product. Somebody could scan a QR code and they could visit a winery quote unquote visit the winery, right, through a virtual reality like video, but I don't think anything. No matter how talented a social media content creator is or how advanced technology can be, I don't think anything can replace the impact of being physically in a winery tasting room. Or a really great restaurant or just among great friends in a simple setting to create that emotional connection that builds brand loyalty. So you can gain brand awareness, but I think it only goes so far. Doesn't mean that influencers are an impactful they are, but I think we need to be realistic about what they can do both for brand building and for sales. Yeah. That's a great callout because we're not replacing the actual experience of being with the bottle being with the grapes, being with community in these things, even though we can get some great suggestions from influencers, build some aspirational qualities. Okay. So let's talk now a little bit about earned media, which is a big part of what you do as a communications agency. And what do you see having the greatest impact for your clients at the moment? And how has this really evolved in recent years? Yeah. So audio. I'm gonna go back to the phone conversation. Picking up the phone, you know, with the proliferation of podcasts and remote work and travel and people being in places where they can have their headphones in. Podcasts have been super interesting. There are more than you can possibly count and they all need content. Radio, even traditional radio. Our clients have had remarkable success. I'd say in the last two to three years with audio, both traditional radio and podcasts, both in terms of securing the coverage itself and even getting sales inquiries. It's fascinating to me because anecdotally, we've seen people getting in touch with a brand because they've heard that brand's owner on the radio, and it's counterintuitive because there's no way to click through if you're listening to their email. With a podcast, you could. If you're listening online, there could be an e commerce component, but it makes people do extra work. But you have their attention in a different way. I think also because we're so screen fatigue that and nobody's really not nobody, but not too many people are picking up physical newspapers and magazines anymore. But the growth of podcast listenership is continuing. And so I think that is an area where you can really make a difference and you can really generate more reach because there is a need for content. And here we are talking on a podcast now. So I think Exactly. And, the other thing is affiliate marketing. I think we have to be really, sensitive as communicators to the fact that our traditional media channels are struggling at or they're thriving, but if they're thriving, it's because they have a business financial model that works. And that model, which used to be a subscription model, isn't working for everyone, especially legacy brands, some newer ones, are are figuring it out. Certainly a lot of great writers are trying to do it themselves through Subsback and similar. So affiliate marketing, this is when you have a product that online is linked to an e commerce site. That e commerce site has a program in place to give a percentage of sales back to the outlet. And this has become a real revenue stream, especially as I said, for legacy media. And so there's not much we can do individually. A brand can't say, you know, where I suppose they could, but typically the way it works is that you join a platform that has a standard way of working and embedded into your margins is this kickback for lack of a better word. And so you're either kind of in that system or you're not And I've found, journalists will say point blank that if you don't have distribution online dot com or similar, maybe total line or or or something else that has good reach and we can find your product easily in the markets where our readers are, then we can include you. In a roundup of wines for Thanksgiving or or whatever the holiday or occasion might be for theme. So affiliate marketing is not just something to try out. It's kind of a necessary it's a necessary component. You have to understand. It's kind of step one, maybe before, you know, first the affiliates and then someday, like, Spectator. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those are great. Thank you for sharing those with us. So now let's kind of wrap up with talking about what are kind of the best ways for a winery, a brand to get use out of an agency. So if wine is all about meeting the consumer where they are, How can kind of a communications agency meet the winery where they are and vice versa? Yeah. So there's an expression that I love, which is that hiring a wine hiring an agency is like joining a gym. You have to show up to get value from your investment. So you can hire an agency and say, you know, go. Here's my media kit or write me a media kit, you know, press kit and generate the coverage. And eventually you're gonna burn out. You know, the agency will not have the content they need. They won't have the personality that they that they need. And I can tell you, Mary, transparently, that the brands that talk to us every week, every other week, even every month, that set deliverables, set deadlines that manage us. They get a great return on investment. Brands that think they can just hire an agency to do the communications work for them. Don't really. They really need to show up. And, depending on the size of the winery, that can be challenging. I get that. If you're the winemaker and the salesperson and you're managing your importers and you're managing your agency, it may just not be workable. So hire an agency when you can manage the agency. And like that other expression goes what gets measured gets managed and what gets managed succeeds. And the other thing I think that's often missing when a winery first starts out looking for communication support is the distribution necessary to justify their investment. If a winery is exporting to the US, but they're in one state in the Midwest, and they're selling great volumes there, for example, And I say that simply because it's not a major media market, but it could be anywhere. They might only be in California. They might only be in New York. That rules out theoretically a lot of potential media coverage. You can technically get scores from ratings publications, but you're not relevant to the general consumer if that consumer can't order their wine at minimum, order it for delivery to their door. And so I'd say at that point invest in your distribution first and then talk to a communications agency when you have critical distribution. I think that is such an important piece of advice to invest in your distribution first, which is hard. But but that's what we're here to do. Yeah. Okay. Well, as we wind down, we like finish up with a rapid fire quiz where we ask our guests three questions to help our lessons better solidify the lessons of this episode and understand the US market. So please try to answer in a couple sentences if you can. What is your number one tip for mastering the US wine market? Okay. Back to people. Our market is like all clouded by marketing speak about scale and data and consumer personae and so forth. But my experience is that people matter more and word-of-mouth and referrals are priceless. I love that especially I will say, you know, also working so much in Italy. They are such a strong word-of-mouth culture. Like, what other people tell them, you know, that kind of influencing really plays a big role for them. Absolutely. What is something you would have told your younger professional self about selling wine in the US? Again, people, but people with whom you work are more important than what you sell, than more important than what you're doing And, this isn't so much about sales, but very quickly I've had bosses who have inspired my confidence because they've let me in on knowledge and experience. They've given me opportunities to grow and to have experiences that made me who I am I've had bosses who were indifferent or who withheld information. And now as an employer, I've had to get better at hiring and much better at managing, and I've done that because I've had those experiences. And I've also learned that choosing your team. If you have the luxury to choose your own team, it makes all the difference. It's okay not to get along with everyone. There'll be someone else to sell to. But if you're in the wrong team or the wrong seat, you can lose motivation, you can stop performing, when we work with the right people, the right buyers, the right clients, the right bosses at the right time, we can genuinely care about those people as people and magic can happen. I love that. To just be a little more discerning and to remember that we're here to enjoy ourselves too. Not just to kind of push a rock forward. Yes. Okay. Lastly, what is your favorite travel hack? Because we all travel a lot in the wine industry. So what's yours? Yeah. So the hardest part On the first day and this is especially true for international travel, I try to get a nap in and I don't drink alcohol on the first day. At least I try not to. That can be very hard in our industry. But I also have an easy one comparatively easy that is kind of fun. I try to exercise every day. And that gets easier because it becomes a habit. It's so rewarding and it really does pay off kind of like getting enough sleep when traveling. But the thing that I've started to do in the last few years is I'll go to a workout class, especially in other countries. Especially if it's in a language, I don't really understand. Which is kind of fun. I'm a little bit absurd, and it feels kind of like extra credit, but it's also become this offbeat social thing that I do with other people. Like if I'm at a trade show or something, a few of us will go and it's fun and it's wacky. And then it gives us something to talk about later on, over the coming days. So that's one I would definitely recommend trying next time you're in a new market. Go for an extra I love that. I love that. And back to kind of like you said, the people aspect, you get to do something maybe outside of the daily grind with people. And it doesn't have to be, you know, aerobics. It could be something you like. It could be rock on whatever. Yeah. Well, Erica, thank you so much for your time. You've given us some really incredible pointers here and insights. How can our listeners connect with you? Yeah. So I'm on LinkedIn, Erica Nani. I'm on Instagram, Erica Nani. No punctuation. You can also find my company, which is at Nani Marketing on Instagram and it's Nani's strategic marketing on LinkedIn, or you can just email me. It's erica at nonmarketing dot com. That's erica with a c. Wonderful. Well, thank you again so much for joining us here on Master Class US wine market. I hope to see you in person very soon. I look forward to that, Barbara. Thanks so much for having me. And that's a wrap for this episode of Masterclass US wine market. Thank you so much for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode and want to stay up to date with the latest industry trends, remember to like, follow and share our podcast. And if you find value in our conversations, please leave us a review to help others discover the show and grow our community. Stay tuned for new episodes every Monday. Until then.