Ep 2357 Barbara Fitzgerald interviews Erica Duecy of Business of Drinks | Masterclass US Wine Market

Erica is the founder of business and drinks, which is a podcast and data insights consultancy, and one of the drinks industry's most accomplished and digital content strategists. In this episode, our three key takeaways are first younger audiences are not onboarding alcohol the same way as prior generations. So let's figure out why. Let's discuss some reasons behind that. Second, the key attributes that younger audiences are looking for in drinks flavor, availability, occasionality, and lifestyle, price, and price to value. And then third, the Nolo products that are growing for a younger audience and what the key attributes of those are. So let's dive right in. Welcome to Masterclass US wine market with me Barbara Fitzgerald. In this show, we'll break down the complexities of selling wine in the US by discussing the relevant issues of today with experts from around the globe. Each episode serves up three key insights to help elevate your wineries presence in the US market. So grab a pen and paper, and let's pave the way for your success in the US. Hi, everyone, and welcome back. To Masterclass US wine market. Today, I'm really excited to welcome Erica Ducey to the show. Erica is the founder of business and drinks, which is a podcast and data insights consultancy, and one of the drinks industry's most accomplished and digital content strategists. She's built data insights and marketing programs for drizzly, union, and other hospitality and drinks tech companies. Previously, she was the chief content officer for the wine discovery platform pit. An editor in chief for the wine and spirits publications, buying pair, and seven fifty daily. She also has led digital editorial teams at architectural digest, Saver, and Father's Triangle. Her content, podcast, and video programs have won more than forty digital and editorial awards. So welcome to the show, Erica. It's really great to have you here. Thanks so much, Barbara. I'm excited to be here with you. Oh, good. I'm so excited to hear so much from you. I'm fangirling a little bit because I am such an would listen around your podcast and appreciate your insights so much. So what a treat to have you here? I'd love to hear that. Thank you. And before we dive into today's discussion, Erica, can you tell us a little bit more about your background and how you came to work in wine? That's Yeah. Definitely. So, I started out early in my career. I went to journalism school and, started working for a restaurant trade publication in New York. So it was essentially my job to go out and eat at restaurants every day. And, what did I do a lot of while I was there. Well, sip online and try the con all that. So that kind of led me down a tangential path pursuing, like, what are all these incredible beverages that I'm encountering And that led me into a deep dive of doing the w set certifications, and I ended up writing a cocktail book called Storage Sipps about all the classic cocktails and the tales behind them, which was pretty fun. And then throughout my career, I just kind of got more and more serious about going down the drinks road until the time that I was fully immersed in it. Yeah. And I've been working full time in, the drink space for, you know, more than ten years, probably close to fifteen. Amazing. And we're very lucky because you do so much research and provide so much great data, really on on such a broad scale, not membership based or anything like that. So we're glad that you found your way here. Yay. Me too. And so today, what we're really excited to talk to you about, you've really been a proponent from a data perspective, absolutely, of entering the know and low alcohol spaces. So no luck as it's been coined. So we're gonna take a really deep dive into that and understand kind of why people should think about it and who it's really approaching. But in this episode, our three key takeaways are first, younger audiences are not onboarding alcohol the same way as prior generations. So let's figure out why. Let's discuss some reasons behind that. Second, the key attributes that younger audiences are looking for in drinks flavor, availability, occasionality, and lifestyle, price, and price to value. And third, the no low products that are growing for a younger audience and what's the key attributes of those are? Yeah. Definitely. So let's dive right in. As we noted, you know, younger generations are approaching alcohol with more hesitation, moderation, maybe even avoidance. And so what are some of the younger audiences? How are their relationships changing with alcohol due to health or wellness or cultural factors? What's going on? Yeah. I mean, I think we, you know, we're really starting to see that, millennials and gen zs have shifted the way that they are interacting with alcohol, the way that they're using alcohol, and that seems to be really starting to escalate. So, you know, we know that fewer young millennials and gen zs are drinking alcohol than the same age set twenty years ago. And it largely has to do with health concerns. You know, we, of course, see all of these, like, surgeon general warnings and all of these sorts of, recommendations coming down the pike to reduce alcohol consumption. But, you know, this is definitely something that has been in the sort of public sphere for a couple years, at least, where we have, you know, very popular big media personalities, you know, like the Andrew Hubermans out there who has like twenty million followers across all of his channel. He's a podcaster who talks about optimizing health and wellness. And, you know, just his one video on how alcohol affects your brain and body has been streamed more than fifteen million times across YouTube podcasts and social. So when you look at what's happening, what type of messages younger people are getting, and also the you know, really the rise of online culture. So we know that, you know, this is a generation that has grown up essentially being filmed and having their teenage and early twenties on, shareable video formats. And that also has led to some changes in alcohol consumption. I mean, look, if I had had my, sort of, like, you know, drunken college days, you know, up on social media channels, I feel like I may never have gotten a job. So I think it's a real concern among younger people that they think, hey, you know, I'm being watched. They don't feel like they really have freedom to imbibe and kind of go off the rails, like my generation did. And I'm I'm a gen xer, so we did not have smartphones until we hit our thirties. And that's so interesting because there is kind of these notion of it's not just health per se. Obviously, health is a really important reason, but they have a reason to fear kind of taking this on as a risk for their own personal branding, for their own kind of, you know, future of where they wanna go in the Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it's also important just to realize, you know, the size of the audience that we're talking about here, gen zs and millennials make up about forty percent of the LBA alcohol purchasing public at this point. So it's really important for brands to be considering, hey, this is a large segment of the audience and a growing segment. So how do we engage them in ways that feel appropriate to their interests and on the channels that they're on. Yeah. And I wanna definitely stick to exploring this these two younger generations, but are there also older generations that have curiosity in the Nolo movement or just not in any, you know, statistical significance or Yeah. I mean, I think we definitely are seeing, you know, for baby boomers and for gen xers. There's a lot of interest in moderation and cutting back. So, you know, we know that baby boomers who love wine, they're literally losing their spending power by the day. You know, ten thousand baby boomers per day in the United States retire. And that goes through twenty twenty nine. I mean, it's a huge, huge segment of the population, and we know that spending decreases in retirement. So, you know, that is very important. We need to onboard these younger audiences. And then Gen X, you know, looking at Gen X, a lot of these are people with school age children, high school age children, even college age children, and, you know, these are busy professionals, but they're also looking at longevity at this point. How do we maintain our health over a period of years as we start to get into our, you know, older years, older middle life? So I think these things are rising up for a lot of audiences across the board? I never wanna discount Genex, but, you know, it is a really small demographic. So it's not gonna be like the traditional trickle down. Maybe it's like next, the Genex is gonna have this huge buying power. It's really coming on with Like, as you said, these large, large portion of millennials and gen zers. Yeah. Exactly. You know, when you look at the size of gen x compared to millennials, it's only ten to fifteen percent smaller than that audience. I mean, we're talking, like, less than ten million people in, in terms of, like, the difference in size. So it's still some, you know, sixty million. So we we do still pretty large. So we should not discount Gen Xers. I would definitely say do not discount human extras if you are a wine brand. But if we're looking at what's coming down the road, you know, it is very important to understand that the millennial audience is larger and is also showing a an interest in wine, especially among affluent older millennials. So I think that's really an opportunity right now for wine brands, whether they're, you know, kind of full strength wine format, or they're offering no and low. Like, this is definitely those affluent millennials. It's definitely an audience that you want to engage with. So both is being back a little bit more now on these millennials and and Jen's ears. Would you say that traditional drinking occasions, like for the younger generations college parties or happy hours are losing relevance, or are they just evolving into something different? Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, we do see, you know, for these younger audiences, there's kind of four main things that they are really thinking about in terms of their purchase drivers. So business of drinks, my company did a survey of thirteen hundred millennials and gen zs in the second half of twenty twenty three. And we found that the top decision factors for why these audiences were choosing beverages were flavor, availability, value, and versatility. And we can talk about each of those. But, you know, to your point about the occasions and where people are taking drinks, you know, it really is something where, younger audiences have different behavior than older audiences. So, for example, you know, what do younger audiences take to a dinner party. You know, in my generation Gen X, it probably would be a bottle of wine. And indeed, millennials still report bringing wine as their number one choice to a dinner party, but gen zs and LDA gen zs say that they're bringing sodas. Right? So that's that's a different. And, like, what do they take to parties and social gatherings? Well, both millennials and gen z say that they take hard seltzers and beer over wine. Right? So, like, some of those behaviors that were more common in my generation, like, you know, in my set, at least we would be taking line to all of these different social occasions, and that type of behavior is breaking down somewhat and and shifting. So, you know, if we even if we're looking at what do people drink at their own dinner tables, for younger audiences, for both millennials and gen z's, it's a sodas. So that could be Coke and Pepsi, or it might be, like, a better for you soda like oily pop or poppy. But, yeah, soda's more than wine at the dinner table. So, yes, so behaviors are shifting, and it's important for brands to stay on top of that. So would you say that that behavior is really being pushed shifted due to economic factors, like, you know, inflation is a crazy high. Obviously, student debt is a big thing here in the US, job and stability. Is that why consumers are shifting away for younger consumers from Alcohol in general, but really also specifically wine in that situation where you said not bringing it to their tables. Yeah. You know, I think it's a great question. I do think that part of the issue is format. So the wine industry has been so reliant on seven fifty ml bottles. And we see in the data that the big winner across all categories is single serve formats. So ready to drink could be wine based spirits based, malt based, those RTD formats are what is really winning. And I think the challenge comes down like you mentioned to, price. So, you know, it's a lot easier someone to justify four or ten dollars for an RTD than buying a twenty or thirty dollar bottle of wine that they're not sure that they're going to like. Right? So the reality of the situation is that younger audiences trial these individual formats, and they've been accustomed to having trial across, you know, spirits. There's so many RTDs out there across all of the categories of CPG where they are, you know, buying products that that single serve format is now the norm. And if they don't see a single serve format of your product, they may not be willing to take a chance on it, not knowing if they're going to like it at that higher price point. So what it sounds like in many regards to these younger generations are less risk averse kind of across the board. So they're less willing to experiment with alcohol in general and then less willing to kind of, you know, put more money out on the table to try. Yeah. Definitely. And I think there's a, like, you know, as we're discussing, there's a range of, factors going into that from, you know, cultural factors to economic factors. So it's not a super simple, you know, a situation where we can just pull one lever and change behavior, I think it really is embedded in many different realms of their lives. Before we shift a little bit towards what it is they're actually looking for. It's this is, I think, a hard question to answer, but with your crystal ball, Did your research suggest that this, you know, gen z's lower alcohol consumption is really, like, permanent shift, or do you think this is kind of a phase of early adulthood as they're figuring out, you know, who they are, their place in the world, their finances, etcetera? Yeah. I do think moderation is going to continue. I mean, we see moderation happening across all segments right now, you know, as we discussed a little bit, it's some sixty four percent of American consumers currently are moderating their alcohol intake according to I WSR data, but that rises to seventy percent for millennials and seventy five percent for gen z. So that tells me, you know, there's so a huge percentage of those audiences, the majority of those audiences, overwhelming majority, are moderating their alcohol intake. That tells me that there are opportunities for other types of drinks and that those categories probably will grow. You know, we do see a lot of interest in the United States with THC containing beverages. So, you know, for our listeners who are not in the United States, hemp derived THC beverages under a certain percentage can now be sold in liquor stores and in wine shops and even in grocery stores in many states. So, you know, on my podcast, business of drinks. I have interviewed several founders of these companies, and one of them Breeze that started last year, they just did in their first year, thirty million dollars in sales. So these are companies that are finding a need in the marketplace for these types of alcohol alternatives. We also see the rise of adaptogen containing beverages, and these have compounds like l theanine, amino acids, neutropics, different types of compounds that are supposed to, you know, designed to give you either like a calming or an uplifting or a variety of different sorts of moods. I interviewed the, founder of recess, one of these sort of mood marketing, mood boosting non alcoholic beverages, and they, you know, in the most recent year did about ten million dollars in sales. So these types of companies are really finding their niche. Now that said, I do want to go back to the data, which is overall alcohol sales in the United States was about, you know, almost a hundred and thirteen billion dollars. Last year in twenty twenty four. And these types of products, just the nonalcoholic, adult beverages, right now, are a little over one billion dollars. So we're talking about just a fraction you know, right now, less than one percent of the overall in comparison, you know, less than a a percent overall alcohol category. So I think some, you know, we see a lot of headlines and a lot of producers ask me, like, hey, is this something we should be really concerned about. Should we, like, you know, switch to non alcoholic only, things like that? And I'm like, look, the data does not support that type of decision. We're talking a billion dollar sounds like a lot, but when you compare it to overall alcohol sales, it's just a drop in the bucket. So there's a lot of potential in this up and coming space, but it's I do not think that it is, oh, going to overtake alcohol sales in our lifetime, certainly. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So it's important. I think what you're saying is brands need to be aware of this and to maybe start innovating on a small scale, like a smaller skew development process or something like that. So that they can be communicating, but it's we don't need to shift making wine into suddenly making, you know, non alcoholic. Exactly. I mean, you know, a great example of this is the winery Geeson in New Zealand. So Geeson has a thriving business selling regular full strength wine in the United States, sovignon blanc, chardonnay's, all these other varieties. Well, about four years ago, they saw this opportunity for non alcoholic wine coming down the pike, And just in that time, they were able to spin up a ten million dollar business selling geese and branded non alcoholic wine. So for wine brands who are already importing into the United States, there is that opportunity right now, I think, in the marketplace, to win customers over. If customers of your full strength wine product, like your brand, they know your brand, they have familiarity with it. There's that opportunity for them then to want to try your nonalcoholic product because they know you're serious winemaker. So I think there's a great opportunity there for brands that already have presence in the US to expand their SKU set with additional products and then find incremental dollars there. Yeah. Definitely. And just for since we do have a lot of Italian listeners, how easy do you think it is right now to get, you know, your non alcoholic product in front of your distributor and then in front of a wholesaler? Yeah. I mean, I think there's a great company that I work. I work with a lot of startups and advise a lot of startups And one of the companies that I work with very closely, who I have a partnership with is called Swig Partners. And so what they do is work with a variety of brands, many import brands, and help import brands find a distributor relationship. So it's a distributor and supplier matchmaking service. So there are companies like that that exist in the US that you can work with to help you find a distributor because I think, you know, That is one of the most important, things that you need to think about in coming to the US market is, you know, what is my route to market and lining that up and making sure that you have a plan to support whichever markets you're planning to open in. Because I think one of the biggest challenges that I see for the brands I advise is that they come in and they say, Hey, I want to be in New York, in LA, and all of these sort of big markets. But then they don't end up having a plan to support that with actual boots on the street selling into those accounts. And as I think, you know, people who've worked in the US market know, you know, really what distributors do is, like, Certainly, they may make some of those placements for you, but the logistical part of delivering products to all of the accounts. So if you can go into a market yourself or your salespeople and say, hey, you know, I just sold into twenty five fifty accounts and they're ready and willing to take my product, you're going to have a lot easier time working into their set of products. What practical advice thank you to find these kind of, yeah, distributor supplier matchmaking services. It's helpful beyond the no low the no low category too. So Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. If someone's looking to come into the US market, I think one of the first things to do is to find an advisor who can work with you to help you understand what are the attractive markets to go into and who are the distributors that are currently taking products, like, accepting new brands. And right now, we're in the first quarter of the year, and This is the time when distributors are picking up new brands because they're looking at the gaps from twenty twenty four and saying what, you know, what were we missing in twenty twenty four? What opportunities do we have in twenty twenty five? That we may have overlooked or that we may be able to take share from another product. So right now is a great time to be trying to line up those relationships for the rest of the year. That makes people feel really good because I know we also there's a lot of challenges right now with wholesale in the US, but people are still looking for new brands and to add to their portfolio in very specific ways. Yeah. And we work at Wig, we work with about ninety different distributors across the US. And so we're constantly emailing and, and on the phone with them asking, like, hey, what are you looking for? What holes do you have in your set? So I think, you know, there's an active network of people out there who are putting the time in to understand what those opportunities are. Let's get back a little bit to our Nolo and our younger audiences. So you mentioned that younger consumers really like very bold, more adventurous flavors, and How does it align with kind of traditional wine profiles? Yeah. It's interesting because, you know, in doing the research around flavor, so, you know, I mentioned the survey that I did for with business of drinks, and the thirteen hundred millennial and gen zs that we interviewed across all fifty states. So in this survey, about eighty percent of respondents said that flavor was extremely or very important to their purchasing decision. And if you think about it, you know, It makes a lot of sense because they have grown up with essentially limitless flavor variation. You know, you can go to Whole Foods and look at the refrigerator case or go to Starbucks and look at the menu there, and you're seeing an incredible amount of variety of flavor options. And so the one thing that we saw in the study, we had some open fields. And the thing that we saw about wine is that a lot of respondents said, you know, wine is too acidic, It's too sour, it's too bitter. I don't like the flavor. And we also saw comments like I wish mine came in more flavors, like fruit flavors, like raspberry and strawberry, and that actually is starting to play out in the marketplace. So Italian producers may be familiar with, Stella Rosa, which is the number one wine import brand in the United States coming from Italy, and its line of flavored wines that are muscato wines. So these have flavored distillates infused into them. So one of the best selling ones, top new wines SKU of twenty twenty three incredibly was a spicy pineapple wine. If you can believe that, I think a lot of people have a hard time believing that. But what's fascinating about this is that this represents just the tip of the iceberg of flavored wine. So flavored wine, and by this, I'm meaning like wine with flavors added to it. This is a growing segment within the wine category right now, and it represents about eight percent of dollar share in the overall category according to twenty twenty four data from Nielsen. So, you know, Stella Rosa is the top brand in that category. It does about four million cases of flavored wine a year coming into the US. So I have a fantastic business of drinks episode with Steve Rebelie Stellerosa's CEO on how they built that brand, but they over index with consumers aged twenty one to thirty four, and they over index with multicultural consumers. So this is a really interesting brand that is actually helping to onboard new consumers to wine, and they have data to show that. So a lot of people who come to their brand, that's the gateway wine. That's the gateway wine that they start with. And it's easy to envision if you have this flavored wine, and then you start to identify as a wine drinker, that you then can take people on this journey through the wine category. You know, where do you go from, you know, a spicy pineapple chili wine? Well, Maybe you go to Solvignon Blanc, right, or like a Grooner Valena or something like that. You know, you you kind of can move down the continuum. So I think there's a great opportunity to bring people in through flavor profiles that they're familiar with. And I think that's one of the big challenges with wine is that look at all the RTDs, look at everything on the shelf. It says to you clearly, raspberry, dragon fruit, you know, strawberry, blood orange. It says what you're going to drink. Stella Rosa in the wine category tells you on the label, the flavor. There's no friction there. There's no friction in the consumer's mind what they're going to get in the bottle. And I think that's the beauty of this flavored wine category is that it can bring people in with a label format, flavor format that they're comfortable with, and that just brings them into the category and helps them onboard to wine. So you said interestingly that this flavored market is about eight percent of dollar share at the moment. And earlier, you said that no low alcohol is only one percent. Is that right? Well, one percent's in a separate category. So Oh, okay. Yeah. A separate category, but in comparison to the overall. So there's a huge amount of opportunity, I think, in all parts of the wine space right now, there's a lot of opportunity. It's really looking at what are consumers doing and interested in? And I think one of the favorite quotes that I had from the Reebelier, one of his best anecdotes was I said, you know, how do you come up? With these wines, like these wine flavors. They're just, like, some, un really unusual ones. And of course, they have spritz flavors, and they have, all sorts of, like, strawberry flavors and all these. His favorite thing to do is to go sit on the beach in Italy and see what the young people are drinking. And so as he was seeing, like, a lot of margaritas and spicy margaritas be served at beach side bars in Italy, that's where he got the idea for the spicy pineapple wine, which is, like, totally fascinating. Like field research. Yeah. He was doing field research in Italy. Like, how cool is that? So I think, like, a lot of times people forget there's inspiration in your own backyard. And in the case of Stella Rosa, he loves going to Italy and sitting on the beach and finding his inspiration there. Love that. I love that. So we did mention that younger consumers are more price sensitive for a variety of reasons. So how much are they willing to pay for these no low options. And especially when we're talking about, you know, a wine, like, you know, that's meant to be like a more traditional seven hundred fifty milliliter bottle of wine. You know, are they willing to invest in kind of a premium no low line? Are they really just looking for budget friendly alternatives? Yeah. I'd say the sweet spot is really, like, I think the ten to fifteen dollar price point is the sweet spot for no low wines. You know, if we look at across all category of line for these younger consumers, probably in the ten to twenty range is where we find the most opportunity for pricing, regular format, regular full strength wines. And we found in our research that fewer than one third of millennials' engines, yeez, were buying wine above thirty dollars. And that's not no one low wine. That's just regular full strength wine. And most of them said that they weren't buying wine above fifty dollars. So even within the conventional wine space, we see that there's a price sensitivity. But I think for No and Low wine, you know, my recommendation would be look at the single formats because having the ability to trial these products and then pricing them at four to ten dollars makes them an affordable indulgent. So there's really a sort of little treat culture among younger audiences that has a lot to do with, you know, not having a ton of disposable income, but being able to afford little treats, right? And, like, a single RTD or a single, like, small bottle of wine or a small, you know, a can of wine, These types of things are much more accessible on a more frequent basis for younger audiences who really may not have the disposable income to spend that twenty dollars or more on a bottle. So that leads me to ask them about the occasionality of it. Are they really looking for this as an everyday beverage, like a little treat every day or more of a social alternative? Yeah. I think especially with in the know and low part of our conversation, you know, the know and low products, I think those really are an everyday occasion. And the number one Sipped know and low or drink, the no alcohol drink, really, is those sodas So if you look now at the Poppies and the Ollie Pops and, you know, the topaches and, like, there's just culture pops. I mean, there's dozens of brands now that offer a lower sugar sort of better for you, sipping occasion. So I think it's like this more healthy sodas is part of the evening indulgence occasion now, as well as some of the products we see, like the recesses and the little saints and the cans. So, you know, all of these different brands that really have caught traction in the know and low space or the THC space think, you know, they are much more of an everyday occasion, but they offer that lower priced ability to have a little treat at the end of the day. So I think that's really, you know, the opportunity there. Yeah. Definitely. Well, let's shift a little bit now to talk about some of the key attributes of products that we see in the market that are actually growing right now. So I'll start off by saying it seems like definitely non alcoholic beer, no low beer, and maybe even no low spirits have really led to charge in this movement. So why do you think wine has lagged behind? I think it's, really parity to the full strength version. So when I drink an athletic beer or a Bureau or any of these sort of non alcoholic beers, I really can't tell the difference. I cannot tell if I am drinking a full strength beer or a non alcoholic beer, and that I think is the biggest challenge for the wine space. The wine space from a technology perspective just hasn't caught up. I think when wine has the same mouthfeel, the same flavors, the same sort of, you know, experience you can't tell the difference between no alcohol and full strength, that's when we'll start to see wider adoption. But right now, it makes a lot of sense to me that beer is leading the way because those products, you really can't tell the difference. And, you know, they can be just served up in any occasion. And I think they, you know, they're almost more popular among my set than sodas, you know, you go to a party and you see a ton of athletic beer, and then you see some full strength wine, some non alcoholic spirits, but I don't see as many non alcoholic wines being served at social events. So I think that is an area where we just need to see more sort of product parity between the full strength and the non alcoholic versions. Do you think that also comes back down to the fact that they for the single serving size and or Yeah. Definitely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Comes back to format. I mean, I think that's a great, you know, like I said, anytime that you can do a single serve format, that is going to lead to trial, which leads to branded option. And that's just something that consumers expect nowadays. So not having that for a lot of these nonalcoholic bottlings, especially those that are a twenty dollar or more price point. It's really hard to justify that spend, not knowing how the product is going to taste. Just a little bit about branding and storytelling. So how important is all of that, you know, brand ethos, sustainability, identity of the brand to this younger consumer. Yeah. Definitely. I mean, the brands that I see taking off really have very thoughtful, well considered brands and great branding. So probably one of the best is the THC drinks brand can, c a n n. And if you go and look at their social media channels and their website, they really feel like a very premium millennial focused brand fit in with the set of higher end sort of, you know, healthful sodas. Like, they feel like they're part of a bigger set of products. So I think that type of thing, and you know, in the non elk space, the non elk spirit space, for example. I think Little Saints is a great brand. They do an incredible job of branding. They have kind of have this signature mint green color in all of their branding, and they really carry it through in all of their channels. But there's so many. You know, I just did an episode with mocktail Club, Pauline Idoho. And, you know, that brand is started out in Groche channels. It's a nonalcoholic RTD, very premium. And the branding is just clean and crisp and well thought out. And I think that that's really a draw is that a lot of younger people are very attuned to brand. I mean, look, This is like the glossier generation. You know, people in their teens and early twenties, they've grown up going to Sephora and shopping at Supreme. And, like, they're very, they're very focused at what is happening elsewhere in the consumer space. And they expect the brands that they support to have a good story to have a look and feel that feels resonant to their experiences. Yeah. They're they're not purchasing anything in a vacuum. Right? It's kind of the whole holistic system. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's one of the challenges, truly, for brands who are coming into the United States, is not having the familiarity with what is happening in the consumer space and understanding the branding that works. So I think, you know, any company that is coming into the US, any brand that is considering coming into the US or a brand that wants to improve how they're doing in the US, it's so important to have advisors and people on the ground who can help inform you as to what is actually happening in the markets that you're trying to get involved in. Because trying to do it from another country is not going to work. I mean, I think there was a a great example, and I I won't name names, but there was a wine company from Spain who asked my advice on their branding. And the way that you pronounce or could pronounce this name sounded like a totally inappropriate word in, like, that it would be pronounced, like, so it just sounded very inappropriate the United States. And I don't wanna give too much detail. Yeah. You know, like the first thing I did was say, like, you can't come in with a product that is called this thing because if you start saying this, people are going to be a offended or could take offense or it's going to lead to your brand being ridiculed. So it can go as far back as, like, the name all the way forward on to the social media assets. I remember one client I was working with, they were trying to farm out their social media assets to consultants in the Philippines, and these consultants had no idea about what was happening in the US market. And the social media assets just felt so off base So, you know, short answer to this is there is a lot of ways to screw it up. And, you know, make sure that you have people on the ground who can advise you and help you make sure that you are spending your money effectively and also not setting your brand up for failure. In market partners are so valuable. Yeah. You have to have the cultural perspective of the market you're trying to penetrate. Absolutely. Okay. We have to we have to start wrapping up, but I have one more maybe quick question before we wrap that up, which is can you talk just briefly about, you know, the shelf placement and the marketing? Like, or no lines, especially no alcohol lines a lease competing in the wine aisle, another drink aisle, a wellness aisle, where are these showing up on shelves? Yeah. I will say it is hugely fragmented. Every retailer and every grocery store, you know, every type of account seems to have a different way that they're doing it. Most often, I see the no and low wines and no and low beers relegated to a no and low section. However, I've also seen some of these products filtered in. And with the low alcohol wines, I have seen those also filtered into the regular product sets. So I think there's a lot of fragmentation right now. There's just a lot of moving pieces because this is an evolving area of the marketplace, and every retailer is coming up with their sort of solution to be able to, you know, present these products effectively. So I think that's something that suppliers and distributors can work with their accounts on to make sure that these products are being presented effectively. And that even goes to on premise accounts, you know, I think in the recent probably six months or so, I now have seen non alcoholic cocktails start to appear alongside full strength cocktails with just a parentheses around them to say like zero proof or no alcohol, but they're not necessarily being relegated to a different part of the menu. So, like, it's really a huge range of experiences right now, but I think that will start to, you know, coalesce into strategy that's very specific to each individual chain or account. Over time. But to know. So, again, always being in in the strategy development conversations with your partners in the market. Yeah. So now, I mean, I could keep you here forever, but we'll start to wind it down a little bit. So we like to end master class what's on the market with rapid fire quiz where we ask our guests three questions to help our listeners better understand the US market and specifically this episode. So just answer in a in a couple sentences if you can, but Number one, what is your number one tip for mastering the Nolo wine market in the US? Yeah. I would say do your research in advance. So that means going to actual bars and restaurants and retailers. And if you have this idea of where your product might fit in terms of possible retailers or the target demographics and psychographics, you should go to those places and actually talk to people So, you know, I'm talking down to the level of interviewing actual customers outside of the story. We're chatting with them as they walk down the aisle. You know, so if I, for example, had an idea that an affluent health oriented shopper was the audience for my product. I would go to Whole Foods and I would stand there and I would observe their behavior and probably buy a couple things along the way so they didn't, you know, but I would observe what was happening there, and then I'd probably talk to a couple people and say, hey, you know, like, does this type of thing interest you? I'm doing a little research. Do you mind if I ask you a question? And so, you know, I think any type of research you can do to understand the demographic psychographic and potential, you know, geographic area that you wanna get into should be done in advance of, you know, building your grand route to market plan because I've seen a lot of those grand plans just get shredded up the minute someone comes actually comes into the market and realizes it won't work. And that's such valuable advice because normally, especially if people abroad, aren't planning trips to a potential market, they're planning trips to markets they're already in. So this such great advice to come. And, you know, when you're visiting that market, you're already in, maybe go visit a new one that you'd like to get into and see what's going on there. Yeah. Alright. And for two, what is something you would have told your younger professional self about selling wine in the US? Yeah. I mean, I'd say, along those lines, you know, the biggest mistake I see brands make and that I really didn't understand until the past couple of years of working one on one with brands and seeing the mistakes that they were making is that so many brands launch in too many markets. So my advice to every brand is to pick one market, support that market, get your learnings from it, and get into a critical mass of retailers or hospitality accounts, whatever it is that you're trying to fit into in that market, find out all of their feedback, what works, what doesn't work in that market, and then expand out. I think the biggest waste of time is to not have sales or marketing support, actual boots on the ground, in a new market that you're going into, and then your product gets into the market, you know, it's available for sale, but no one's buying it. And if no one's buying it, and you don't provide the support to get it into those accounts and to help it move, then they're going to discount it and not pick up your brand again in the future. So I think that is the biggest mistake and something that a lot of newbies and newbies to the US make a lot. I see it happening all the time. And I think because a lot of retailers will tell you, you know, they can't even talk to you unless you have greater distribution or something like that. So it might feel like this fear, like, okay, I have to enter so many markets, but this is such additional advice, start small, do it really well, and then let that actually lead to some very sustainable organic growth. Yeah. Definitely. Okay. Last, we travel a lot in wine business. So what is your favorite travel hack when doing market work? My best advice is to take yourself by yourself and go sit at a bar. And the reason is, bartenders can tell you a wealth of information. I also go into retail shops And I just talk to the retailers. I go at a slow time of the day, and I just talk to them and find out what's hitting, what's not hitting? What are people starting to gravitate to? What is moving? Like, what type of new products did you just bring in that I might not know about. And I find out more useful information and actual intelligence for the brands that I work with by going into these accounts. So I think that is my best advice. Go into the bar. Go into the retailer, actually have a conversation with them, and you will they will both remember you. And, hopefully, your brand will get into their account, but they will give you a lot of free intelligence that you can use to help optimize and strategize for your own brand. That is also amazing advice, more field research. And I wanna point out that you said to go by your set so that you can really be kind of in research mode, not social hour, but Exactly. Exactly. When there's two people, like, the bartender doesn't, you know, probably will not really engage with you. But if you're there and you're by yourself, like, everyone's looking to make you feel comfortable. Well, I'm not looking to feel comfortable. I'm looking to find out information That's understandable, and I wanna get a lot of data. Yes. Exactly. So, like, I just go and talk to them and ask questions. And, you know, I don't think I've ever had a bad experience doing that. And I always, a hundred percent of the time, come away with information that will help the brands that I'm working with. Amazing. Well, Erica, my gosh. I mean, not that I had any doubt in my mind, but you have provided us with so much really juicy practical information. So I thank you again so much for your time and being here with us today. How can our listeners connect with you? Yes. Listeners can find me on LinkedIn or the business of drinks podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get you get your podcasts. And my Instagram handle is at erikaducey. It's e r I c a d u e c y. Well, thank you again for everything you offered us today. I really hope I get to see you again soon. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Barbara. Take care. You too. And that's a wrap for this episode of Master Class US wine market. Thank you so much for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode and want stay up to date with the latest industry trends, remember to like, follow and share our podcast. And if you find value in our conversations, please leave us a review to help others discover the show and grow our community. Stay tuned for new episodes every Monday. Until then.