Ep 2391 Juliana Colangelo interviews Jamie Evans of The Herb Somm in California | Masterclass US Wine Market

Today, I am thrilled to welcome Jamie Evans to the Italian wine podcast. Jamie is a four time published author, certified Sommoyer, and founder of the Urbsom, which is a culinary meets cannabis lifestyle brand and blog, that focuses on the cannabis side of the industry. Our three key takeaways are gonna be number one, the rise of THC infused beverages, what's the scale and the scope? What does this industry look like in the US? Similarities and differences between wine and cannabis and Jamie's perfectly primed with her background to talk to us about that. And then finally, what's the future holds for us? Obviously, things are always changing, but getting Jamie's best takes on the future. Hello. Welcome to Masterclass US wine market with me, your host, Juliana Colangelo. This show has been designed to demystify the US market for Italian wineries through interviews with experts in sales and distribution, social media, communications, and so much more. We'll will quiz each of our esteemed guests in every episode to solidify the lessons that we've learned from the episode. So sharpen your pencils, get out your notebooks, and join us this week to learn more about the US market. Hello. Welcome to Masterclass US Market. Today, I am thrilled to welcome Jamie Evans to the Italian wine podcast. Jamie is a four time published author, certified Sommier, and founder of the Herb song, which is a culinary meat Canvas lifestyle brand and blog that focuses on the cannabis side of the industry. So we're very excited to have her here today to talk to us about the that side of the industry. Jamie, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you here. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me and hello to all of your listeners. Awesome. Well, for our listeners who might not be familiar with you. I know you've been on the podcast before, but just as a refresher, tell us a little bit about your background and your work in the cannabis space. Sure. Yeah. So I come from a long history of actually working in the wine industry. So I spent over a decade working in wine, everything from wine, public relations, wine events, to marketing. And then back in twenty seventeen, I actually crossed over to the cannabis space when I launched my blog called the Herb Psalm. And so when I joined the cannabis space, I really wanted to take the lessons that I learned from wine and bring that to cannabis. And so I've really tried to focus on the culinary side to cannabis, which means mostly cannabis and beverages, cooking with cannabis and a lot of education that comes along the way. And I've also hosted cannabis dinners here in San Francisco. That's where I'm based. And I recently launched a brand new mobile cannabis bartending company. We're called the Erbil cocktail Co. And so we do cannabis beverage pop ups and private events and then also, writing books along the way. So it's been a very fun journey since entering the space. That's exciting. Well, congratulations on the launch. I decided to dive into that a little more in today's conversation. And so for our listeners, you know, today's key takeaways and what we're really excited to learn from Jamie, are gonna be predominantly about the rise in THC infused beverages in the US market and who better than Jamie to talk to us about this topic. Our three key takeaways are gonna be number one, the rise of THC infused beverages, what's the scale and scope, what does this industry look like in the US? Similarities and differences between wine and cannabis and Jamie's perfectly primed with her background to talk to us about that. And then finally, what's the future hold for us? Obviously, things are always changing, but getting Jamie's best takes on the future. So, Jamie, as you mentioned, you've really been at this intersection of wine, cannabis, and food for a while now your whole career. What are some of the key parallels as well as some of the key differences that you see between the wine world and now this THC beverage based specifically? Yeah. Of course. Well, since I joined the space in twenty seventeen, cannabis beverages are just an emerging category. So over those eight years that I've almost been in the space, this category has only grown and grown over the years. And it's become my most I'm just most excited about all of the beverages that are coming out because I think there is so much excitement and it really gives consumers a new way to kind of enter the cannabis space. But when we're talking about parallels between wine and TDC beverages, there are some similarities. So I think one of the first ones is just people are kind of enjoying these things in the same like ritual or social settings. So, like, wine, we often, you know, we consume these, like, the more parties or barbecues celebrations, and also TFC beverages are being combined into these similar moments. There's also kind of similarities when we're talking about, like, terroir and the craft of producing these types of products. So in wine, of course, we have this, like, deep heritage around the origin of wine and the terroir and varietals and craft. We're seeing this a little bit more kind of like the conversation around terroir when we're talking about the cannabis plant itself. So when we're talking about like the Emerald Triangle or Mendacino or Humboldt, but when you're sourcing cannabis from these regions to make cannabis infused beverages, we can certainly talk about the origin in that sense. But really the craft of producing THC beverages is definitely a part of the conversation. So whether you're using a live rosin to make your product or distillate, there really is this similar kind of connoisseurship that you can find in both spaces. Also, as you know, I'm a certified sommelierce. We're always talking about like tasting notes. We're talking about flavor exploration, and these two things are definitely similar in both, industries. And what I've noticed over the past several years is cannabis beverages are now becoming more complex than they used to be because I think when this category was first starting out, there was just a ton of like seltzers, sparkling waters, but now we're seeing some really lovely products that you can use behind the bar that actually kind of they're very similar to almost the spirit in a way that has complexity. It gives body to the drink in different layers. So I think those are all similarities. But also there's a lot of key differences when we're talking about the spaces. So I think the number one thing is, cannabis beverages, they're gonna give you a high. Right? So we're dealing with cannabinoids, which is it's much different than actually working with wine. And I think like wine based effects, those are pretty predictable when we're talking about THC in a beverage. One thing to remember is cannabis is not one size fits all. It really impacts everyone so differently. So whether five milligrams of THC works for you, that might not work for someone else. So it's really about education in the cannabis space at this time and kind of educating people on how to find their perfect milligrams. So whether that's experimenting with cbd, THC, a combination of both, I think that's one of the key differences that we're going to find, but also the regulatory environment. So of course, from wine wine is very heavily regulated as we know and that kind of goes state by state, but also global regulations as well. But T. C. Beverages, this is a very fragmented legal landscape and very, very difficult to operate in, especially if you're trying to scale a beverage. One thing to remember about cannabis derived THC is it cannot cross state lines. So if you're trying to scale your cannabis beverage business, it's very, very difficult. So I think we'll talk about this later in the show, but a lot of cannabis beverage brands at this point are kind of moving to a hemp derived cannabinoid business brand, which gives them more access to consumers across the US. You can transport across state lines and have base beverage as compared to the But hunt piece of beverage is correct. Yeah. And that was because in two thousand eight Farm bill, which actually approved hemp products. But there's a lot of states now that are kind of cracking down on hemp, which we can talk about in a little bit. But one interesting thing I think just to end the differences on is I've noticed, especially when I'm doing like my pop up bar program with cannabis beverages, people don't binge drink cannabis drinks. So they usually have one or two and then they're done versus like when we're sitting down to have a glass of wine, we might have two or three or four. So there's just a little bit difference of con consumption patterns. That's interesting. Yeah. Absolutely. I wonder that is. I mean, I guess, as you mentioned, it's a different effect and perhaps, like, the impact of the PhD doesn't encourage someone to over consume in the same way, maybe the consumption of alcohol or our wine does. But that's those are all really interesting points, Jamie, that you made. And especially like the regulatory, we know how highly regulated alcohol is, but to understand kind of the regulations and differences between THC versus HE. Because looking at the market right now, you know, we see the hemp based beverages have a larger market share, right, than the THC or imagine a lot of that is in large part due to those regulations you mentioned. So let's talk about the market. I mean, we see it now a billion plus US market for hemp based thc beverages. So that's huge and it's taking away market share from other products. So in a store shop, there is a hemp based or thc based beverage sitting in your average store in the US? I mean, so it really depends on like the state that you're in. So here in California, it was interesting back in, I think it was September of last year. Our governor actually banned hemp based beverages. So there was one thing you could walk in total wine and more. I walked in Bevmo and they had these t h c hemp derived drinks, which was awesome. And I I really do think that these products belong at those types of stores when you can find other adult beverages. But because of the hand ban, those had to be completely removed from all off premise accounts. And now you can only find them at licensed dispensaries or delivery services here in California. So we're going back to the traditional cannabis market. And for a cannabis infused beverage brand, that makes it very difficult as I said beginning to show, to be able to scale. So what we're seeing is There's some brands who are able to have kind of like their targeted state license program where they're working with the license dispensary, delivery services, enjoying more of the traditional market, but they also have their hemp derived line where can go outside of California and into other states to reach new consumers. So that's kind of been like the new trend that we've been seeing lately. Okay. So you're seeing a greater rise now and have faced just from the regulation standpoint. Yeah. Who do you think that consumer, like, for this product? Is it somebody who's a cannabis consumer? Is it a wine consumer? Who do you think is is pulling these products off the shelf? Yeah. I think like the consumer, what I've noticed is Definitely the younger generation. I think they're trying to move away towards alcohol and trying to find different alternatives. But in my experience, especially when I'm hosting my events, there's people of all ages that are curious to try this form factor of cannabis. And I think beverages are very interesting and intriguing to people because it's not like a smoking form factor of cannabis. You're actually ingesting the cannabinoids. It's a very familiar form factor. And so it's actually opening the door for many people to try Canvas products in the first place. And I think the the key thing to remember is to kind of educate people as they're trying this and definitely start with a very low dose. Which is usually for me I like to serve at my events, like, two point five milligrams to three milligrams, the cocktail. That's okay. Okay. So you think it's appealing to younger generations who like you said are looking out side of alcohol and consumption. Do you think it's taking any way market share from a wine consumer? Or do you think people are starting to mix? Like, okay, I'll start with the cannabis beverage and then go to wine? Like, how do you see it coexisting with wine? Yeah. I really think it depends on like the situation and the the setting because like in my experience, people aren't like giving up their wine for cannabis unless they're trying to be more of like the county sober lifestyle, which we're kind of seeing a new trend. Which is basically you're consuming like cannabis products but no alcohol. But for the most part, like, I definitely drink a ton of wine. I love wine. I love cocktails. And but for me, it's like I enjoy cannabis beverages at certain times and I enjoy wine at certain times. But it's not like I'm training one for the other. So I think there is definitely room for both. And I think many people enjoy both for sure. Yeah. And like you said, I mean, they they have similar consumption occasions, right, parties, social settings, So perhaps you're offering, you know, and you're offering both in a way as you, you you put together your offerings. Can you talk a little bit about the products themselves, Jamie? Like, are they heavily flavored? Are we seeing them become more, like, terwar driven? Like you mentioned earlier, Mendezito and the emerald triangle. Are we starting to see, like, applications, kinda like wine? Like, what are the products you're looking like on the shelf? Yeah. So it's been really interesting because like I said, it first started out with many people just creating like the basic like seltzer sparkling waters that were infused with cannabis. But now we're seeing more and more of these subcategories kind of growing over the years and they're becoming more complex. They have like everything from cannabis infused wine, which is of course the alkalized wine, which actually I produced my own product called their bossy, which was one of those. But you can find cannabis infused coffee products, you can find cannabis infused non alcoholic beer products, And then also, like, like I said, like, the mixology products that kind of, like, are meant to be, like, the spirits. And that's what I like to use with when I'm doing my herbal cocktail co popups. There's a great brand called Artet They're actually, based on the East Coast, but they have a really wonderful aperitif, which is almost trying to, like, you can simply replace alcohol in a cocktail that kind of adds that complexity and adds, like, the weight on your palette, everything that you'd want from a spirit. And it's, yeah, it's probably one of my favorite products to mix with, but there's so many different types of products now that we're seeing that almost mirrors the traditional beverage space. Right. And how about price point wise? Are they comparing to, let's say, like, a can wine? Like, how do they, like, let's take your average can on a shelf? Like, what's the average price point you're seeing? I think for, like, the average can, I've seen everything from, like, ten to twelve dollars. I mean, cannabis is very expensive, especially if we're talking about the legal market because all of the taxes that a customer has to pay. Yeah. So, I mean, it really depends. But if we're talking about, like, the Artet Appertif bottle, it's in a beautiful, like, some fifth milliliter bottle. I mean, that's like eighty dollars. So it really depends on kind of like the type of beverage that you're looking for. But there's some beverages that you can find like single serve cans. Most come in like four pack, twelve packs, that I've seen, and so on. So it's it's very comparable, I would say. Okay. Awesome. Very interesting. Cool. Yeah. I'm just thinking about again as this isn't a category that's really growing quickly. And I mean, it's been around as you said Jamie for a while, but we're seeing it start to kind of hit the trends and and that enter the the mind share of the larger beverage alcohol industry in a bigger way. Like, why do you think more recently? It's boom so much because you know, like you said, these products have been around, but like we've seen this the, let's say, last twelve months, this will rise? Like, what do you think is like the biggest contributing factors to that? I think there's like two things. I think the category right now is like really been driven by innovation within the cannabis beverage space. So these products are becoming like pretty great. When they first came out, they weren't as great. But now, like, they have these beautiful emulsions that mix perfectly with liquids and they're not really giving like cannabis nuances. So it really does taste like a delicious beverage. And then also besides innovation, it's I think like as consumer health trends are happening and people are looking for other things besides alcohol, I think that's really driving in it as well. And we're just seeing more people look towards things that are like kombucha or cannabis and these beverages, of course, but just just having that alternate to alcohol is definitely driving that. Yeah. That's a huge piece of it. Absolutely. Where do you see the space heading in the future? What do you predict for the next, you know, you've mentioned, like, the products have gotten a lot better from a quality perspective, but what do you see is in the future of this space? I think in the future of the space, so what we're seeing now in California is we're now seeing a lot more, on-site consumption spaces that are happening here Right. Where people can go to, like, a dispensary and have, like, a bar experience where you can go up, you can order a cannabis infused beverage and actually sit at the bar and enjoy it. So I think in the future, hopefully we'll start seeing a lot more of these and then maybe we'll have our own cannabis confused beverage bars one day. That would be like the ultimate dream of mine. And I actually hosted a a cannabis cocktail class. This was last week at a dispensary called Urbana in Oakland. And people came. We just like a mixology session and people are just really interested and focused on beverages. So I'm really hoping to see kind of more on-site consumption opportunities. And then hopefully we will come back to the point where we can see these beverages and off premise accounts as well such as total wine and more, Bevmo, places where, like, you can find other adult beverages. Right. And see what I can do here. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And maybe this is a a more fundamental question I should have asked earlier, but Jamie, are all these products US made? Is there any potential for imported THC products? That's a really good question. I think in terms of importing cannabis products, it gets very difficult at this point in time because cannabis is still a federally illegal product. And so even like within the United States, it's hard for us to even cross state lines. So I think for like importing, it gets a little bit more difficult. But I have heard of people importing hemp products. So I think there could be an opportunity. I certainly think there is a large opportunity for cannabis beverages to grow in other countries and especially I think like because I produce my own cannabis infused wine product. I really hope we start seeing more of these types of products to grow kind of that subcategory. Because at this point in time, there's there's very, very few. But yeah, I just think there's just a ton of opportunity and it's is a very exciting space to look into. Very cool. Anything that you would recommend for someone sitting over in Italy right now, specifically, let's say, so we're working for a winery, hence why I ask you a question, but as they think about, well, how do I need to be thinking about this category when I come to the US market. Any anything specific to like our our imported wine friends on the other side of the ocean? Oh, yeah. I mean, I definitely think like if you're producing like a de alkalized wine product. You could easily infuse that with cannabis. And I also think for Italy, what I think Italy, I think of like spritzes and like delicious cocktails. So I think there would be a really cool opportunity to do maybe like a cannabis infused opera spreads or something along those lines. But yeah, I think there's just a lot of creativity within this space, and I think if you're already producing great wine, you can certainly produce an excellent cannabis beverage. Absolutely. Awesome. Well, Jamie, I feel like we could talk a lot more about this category. It's definitely for me, endlessly interesting, and I got a chance to go to one of your cannabis infused dinners way back when you started in seven Cisco. So I know who created you are, and you've been really on the forefront of this space. So, again, thank you for joining us to talk and give an update on how to know what's happening in the category. As we wind down our episode, we'll do our rapid fire quiz. So if you can do your best to answer these questions or just a few sentences, question number one. What is your number one tip for mastering the US white market? Yeah. So I think with that question, just look for creative ways to engage with younger consumers. So this could really mean collaborating with parallel industries like cannabis and host unique experiences. So I've done a lot of work kind of bridging the gap between wine and cannabis since I've started my blog and lifestyle brand. So I've worked with people in Anderson Valley in wine country, Napa Valley. And I'm and just try to kind of like bridge the gap and then think about those younger consumers as you're thinking about the wine market. That's great advice. Yeah. Absolutely. Look for new ways to engage new people. And apparel industries is one excellent way. Number two, what is something you might have told your younger professional self about working in the wine and now cannabis industry? Well, I think, like, when I when I first joined the space, I was just really focused on wine. So I think, like, I think something that's important is to really diversify your portfolio and your tastes, with some other fun beverages. So over the years, I've really took an interest in like sake and tequila and like have really tried to learn more about these different categories and then also cannabis drinks. So really kind of diversify your portfolio and think outside of wine, I think, is a good advice. Definitely be a jack of all trades. You know, keep people to watch witnessed. I love that. I'm finally we all travel a lot. Sounds like you've been on the road doing some great events. What's your favorite travel hack? I think my number one thing that I always like to travel with is electrolytes. I think, like, it honestly, like, I become dehydrated many times, especially if you're flying on airplanes for a long period of time. I always have, like, electrolytes in my back pocket and I swear it just makes me feel better. Like, no matter where I go. So that's definitely a tough hug. Absolutely. Well, Jamie, thank you again for joining us. How can our, listeners follow along with everything you're up to? Yes. You can find me on Instagram and all social media platforms at the herbs Psalm. That's s o m m. And then my website is the herbs Psalm dot com. You can find more information about my books. Also my most recent book, High Times Canvas cocktails that launched last July. You can find more information on my website, but it's a really great resource. If you're curious to craft your own cannabis drinks at home. Amazing. Thank you again, Jamie. Thanks, Julianna. Thank you for joining me today. Stay tuned each week for new episodes of Master Class US wine market with me, Juliana Colangelo. Or remember, if you've enjoyed today's show, hit the like and follow buttons wherever you get your podcast.